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Author
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Topic: So what is the soul and the body?
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Isaiah
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Personally -I really don't think it is that complicated. We ought not allow ourselves to become stuck in a logic loop based on imperfect words, when the answers are rather apparent.
The third 'thing' -is not a separate thing which can necessarily go anywhere separate from the others, but is a property of the others -your thoughts can be retained with what goes to God -but they can't be processed by the physical brain which has turned to dust -by which you once interfaced with the world. However -God will not bring some former things to remembrance -so he can also delete or allow certain things to fade. Is this what the writer meant exactly? I dunno -but I don't need to. I'm not missing anything important in this case. Generally, all who have died except Christ are now in hades/sheol -the grave(their bodies, that is) and the rest of them is with God -but not aware -awaiting resurrection. No man has "gone to heaven" AS SUCH, except Christ.
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
But men die -and are as sleep -until God resurrects them.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
That is to say.....
1Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
Christ said let your yes be yes, and your no be no -but when he was asked if he was the king of the Jews.... he did not say yes or no -yet his answer was not from the evil one. Sometimes understanding is beyond imperfect words. What Christ said was true and perfect -but the language leaves room for misunderstanding and a need for looking beyond what we think was said.
Also -words are sometimes interchangeable -and can have several meanings each -If I talk about my body, my person, my self, etc... I do not necessarily mean different things -nor do I necessarily mean the same thing.
As it pertains to this question.....
The body decays and what does not turn to dust goes to God. He can then put what has not decayed in an incorruptible body or bring the dust again together -bringing bone to bone -sinew to sinew, etc... and put you again in a flesh body.
It really is that simple.
Phi 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Eze 37:5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live:
Eze 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
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Eden
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Hi, Isaiah. You said quote:
In Hebrew, it is not difficult to see that the one word translated(to my knowledge) "soul" means the whole creature and the one word translated "spirit" --means the part which God can separate from the body at death -and keep(generally unaware -as if asleep) until it is to be put in another body. [Though the same word does describe the spirit of God(God's spirit), the spirit in man, actual blowing wind -and perhaps other things.....]
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psa 6:5 For in death(H4194) there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave(H7585) who shall give thee thanks?
...And in Greek...."soul" (G5590) can mean EITHER a body/creature -even animal -as in.....Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul(G5590) died in the sea.
...or one's spirit...as in...
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul(G5590) and body(G4983) in hell.
..where it is made clear that the SOUL referred to here can NOT be destroyed by man -only by God.
I'm with you on Hebrew nephesh meaning "creature" and the "whole being" and I am with you that the Greek LXX word psuche always translated the Hebrew word nephesh, without exception.
So "psuche" must also mean "creature" and the "whole being" and the "whole person", just as "nephesh" means in Hebrew.
And the English 1611 King James Version used the word "soul" because in Tudor English of the 1600s, a "soul" meant "a person", as "there were a thousand souls on that boat".
In Genesis 2:7, the LORD God blew the breath" or "neshamah" of life into the man that God had formed and the man "became" a living nephesh.
Now, the body was made from the adamah or ground and so the body was the material, physical adamah part of Adam.
But it was the "neshamah" that was blown into the adamah ground body form that made man a "living nephesh" or "living soul" or "living person" or "living creature".
Isaiah, I think you said that the soul had to be equal to the spirit because man could not kill the soul in Matthew 10:28, but men could kill the body.
So therefore you seem to say that the soul cannot equal the body because the body could be killed and hence, the soul must equal the spirit.
However, if the "soul" meant the "nephesh" or the "creature" or the "whole person", how can that exclude the body?
When I think of a living nephesh or creature like a whale or a fish or other animal or a living nephesh like a human being, I see the whole animal or person or creature.
How is it then that now all of a sudden when the body is destroyed, the soul or nephesh or creature suddenly lives on as the spirit and no longer as the creature or nephesh?
And what is the "soul without the body" or the "nephesh without the body" doing in sheol/hades when the "spirit" clearly returns to God who gave it?
If the spirit returns to God, and the body returns to the earth, what is the soul, which is always and always "nephesh" in Hebrew and "psuche" in Greek, what is the soul doing in sheol/hades?
Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
The above refers to Jesus who was taken back OUT of sheol/hades after 3 days, but the word "shall not leave" my soul in sheol/hades, means presumably that the other "souls" or "nephesh" or "psuche" remain in sheol/hades, for whatever reason.
The spirit returns to God and the body return to the earth:
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.
But does the soul or nephesh or psuche go anywhere, Isaiah? And this is especially surprising when the nephesh or psuche or soul is clearly the "whole person" in the Bible.
Where, if anywhere, does the soul or nephesh or psuche go?
Until recently, I thought about the same as Watchman Nee said, and as Carol Swenson said, that the soul was the junction or prism or seat of personality which was ceated by the mere joining of neshamah breath and adamah dust of the ground.
But suddenly last week I began to think that the soul had to be something more tangible if the body returned to earth and the spirit returned to God who gave it, and the soul or nephesh or psuche goes...where, to sheol/hades?
And if the soul or nephesh or psuche can go to sheol/hades it must be something more than just that junction or prism or personality since presumably such a junction or a prism or a personality could not have a separate existence apart from the spirit and dust body?
I'm very exercised by this question...
love, Eden
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Isaiah
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My, but you are thorough!
Good thing, though. Had to do some research....My point was valid, though I was not completely correct or clear.
This seems to be more about language than it does the actual topic....
In Hebrew, it is not difficult to see that the one word translated(to my knowledge) "soul" means the whole creature and the one word translated "spirit" --means the part which God can separate from the body at death -and keep(generally unaware -as if asleep) until it is to be put in another body. [Though the same word does describe the spirit of God(God's spirit), the spirit in man, actual blowing wind -and perhaps other things.....]
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psa 6:5 For in death(H4194) there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave(H7585) who shall give thee thanks?
...And in Greek...."soul" (G5590) can mean EITHER a body/creature -even animal -as in.....Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul(G5590) died in the sea.
...or one's spirit...as in...
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul(G5590) and body(G4983) in hell.
..where it is made clear that the SOUL referred to here can NOT be destroyed by man -only by God.
and if that were not enough -we can make it more confusing....1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here we have spirit G4151-soul G5590-and body G4983- arguably meaning "mind(personality and reason), spirit(which makes the former possible) and body"...(sadly -I have seen some who have had bodies and a spirit -but whose personality and mental faculties were in quite a state of disrepair)
We have to remember that all human languages are created by imperfect humans attempting to reverse-engineer and explain the creation -and until God gives us a pure language (Zep 3:9)-our attempts to make our point clear will not always be successful. God has even purposed this to keep some things hidden from those unwilling to do an exhaustive search(Isa 28:13)
So......in Hebrews 4:12.... "body and spirit" is an accurate translation -but "mind and spirit" would also be correct...
as the verse essentially says the "word of God" is alive and is able to separate every part of you and search every part of you.
This does not only -or even necessarily -mean the words God had written in the bible.
The word "word" is LOGOS -and the "word of God" is the name of Christ (Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.)
It was he who -by the order of the Father -created all things -he is able to subdue all things unto himself (Phi 3:21) -he is able to separate your spirit from your body -and raise it up at the last day in a new spirit(not corruptible)body -or raise some again to flesh -or any other thing he decides to do which is within the parameters of what the Father gives him to do. No part of us whatsoever is already immortal -it was once nothing and can again be nothing -The ability of the Father and the Word to affect the creation is limited only by their decision.
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Eden
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Hi Carol Swenson. You said quote:
I believe the soul is the personality, the ego. The spirit is the "breath of God", the life-force.
If the soul is the personality, the personality dwells inside the body, right? So let's look at Matthew 10:29:
Matthew 10
28 But fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul {psuche}: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell {gehenna}.
Carol Swenson, when the body is killed, why is the personality not killed along with the body since the personality dwells inside the body?
By your interpretation of soul, the personality would continue to live on even after the body has been killed.
Are you proposing that if the soul is the personality of a person, that the personality can go on living without a body?
Because if the personality lives in the body, then when the body is killed, the personality should be killed with it, right? But Matthew 10:29 contradicts that:
Matthew 10
28 But fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul {psuche} ...
So Carol Swenson, let me repeat what you said:Hi Carol Swenson. You said quote:
I believe the soul is the personality, the ego.
According to your proposal, the personality could live on even without a body.
love, Eden
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Eden
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Hi, Isaiah. You said quote:
In Matthew 10 -The word translated soul means spirit -not body...
G5590 ψυχη , psuche, from G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only, etc.)
Matthew 10
28 But fear not them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul {psuche}: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell {gehenna}.
So you said: quote:
Matthew 10 -The word translated soul means spirit - not body.
In the Greek Septuagint LXX version of the Hebrew Old Testament, the Hebrew word “nephesh” is always translated in the Greek by “psuche”. In English, both words in the Hebrew OT and in the Greek LXX OT are therefore translated as “soul”.
And Genesis 2:7 said “And man became a living soul” {Hebrew, nephesh; Greek, psuche}. There it thus says that man IS a living soul, and it does NOT say that man HAS a living soul, but that man IS a living soul.
In addition, the Bible seems clear that man also has a spirit of man:
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Ecclesiastes 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
And also the Word of God separates the soul {psuche} from the spirit of man:
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
So Isaiah, let me repeat what you said: quote:
In Matthew 10 - The word translated soul means spirit -not body.
But, Isaiah, if "soul means spirit", why do they still need to be divided? Can you explain that to me please?
love, eden
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Carol Swenson
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Hi Eden,
I believe the soul is the personality, the ego. The spirit is the "breath of God", the life-force. We are made in the image of God, though, so it's all far more beautiful than these poor words can describe. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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Isaiah
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The words "soul" and "spirit" have become confused -BUT NEITHER IS IMMORTAL!
A good way to remember it is...if people send an "S.O.S."(save our souls), they want their whole persons to be saved.
When it says man "became a living soul" -the word used for soul is...
H5315
נפשׁ
nephesh
neh'-fesh
and refers to the whole creature -animal or human -as we read of Adam naming the living creatures(animals) in Gen. 2:19 -and the word for "creatures" is the same H5315. The same word is translated "body" in Lev 21:11.
As for the human spirit -the essence of the man -the part that God can separate from the body when a man dies -and eventually resurrect -put again within a body -whether flesh or immortal...
Elihu -in the book of Job -said it best....
Job 32:8 But there is a spirit (H7307) in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
However....this spirit can be destroyed!
In Matthew 10 -The word translated soul means spirit -not body...
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only, etc.., etc..)
and it CAN be destroyed in gehenna (the lake of fire) along with the body (flesh).
This does not mean that it will always be subject to death -once God makes one immortal by putting their spirit into a 'spirit' body -incorruptible -they can live forever without possibility of death -God can make that certain.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul(spirit) and body(flesh) in hell(gehenna G1067).
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing.....
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Phi 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
[It is important to note also that no one is now in hell -unless you mean their bodies in graves (hades/sheol) or the state/place of restraint of the sinning angels (tartaros) -but none have yet been cast into the lake of fire(gehenna)]
Yayyyyy ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
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Eden
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1 Thessalonians 5
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
I think I understand now what is meant by the spirit of man, and I think I understand what is meant by the body, but what is meant by the soul?
Am I a soul?
Or, do I have a soul?
If I am a soul, why would Jesus say:
Matthew 10
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak in the light: and what you hear in the ear, that preach upon the housetops.
28 And do not fear them who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell {gehenna}.
On the other hand, Genesis 2:7 says that man became a living soul:
Genesis 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This word soul is the Hebrew word nephesh which in the Greek Septuagint LXX is always translated psyke, and psyke in turn is always translated soul in the New Testament.
If man became a living soul, how then can he have a soul?
I believe I have a spirit and a body, but do I have a soul or am I a soul?
In Genesis, the Hebrew word nephesh is also translated as creatures to describe the creatures, like whales and fishes, living in the seas:
Genesis 1:21
And God created great whales, and every living creature {Hebrew, nephesh} that moves, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature {Hebrew, nephesh} after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Genesis 2:19
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature {Hebrew, nephesh}, that was the name thereof.
Genesis 9:10
And with every living creature {Hebrew, nephesh} that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
And Genesis 2:7 said that man became a living creature or soul:
Genesis 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul {Hebrew, nephesh}.
So am I a soul?
Or do I have a soul? For instance, if my spirit goes back to God, and by body decays, it says that my soul goes to hades:
Psalm 16:10
For You will not leave my soul {nephesh} in hell {sheol}; neither will You suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27
Because You will not leave my soul {psyke} in hell {hades}, neither will you suffer Your Holy One to see corruption.
Will my soul be in hades while my spirit returns to God and my body disintegrates, or am I the soul or creature or nephesh and soul and body are the same thing? But they cannot be the same thing because Jesus said:
Matthew 10
28 And do not fear them who kill the BODY, but are not able to kill the SOUL: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell {gehenna}.
If they can kill the body but not the soul, what then is the soul compared to the body?
With love,
eden
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