|
Author
|
Topic: intersex
|
aiopj
Advanced Member
Member # 6768
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Your assertions are wrong because you characterized my statements incorrectly.
I wrote what I wrote. I didn't write what I didn't write.
My assertions are not wrong, merely what I have before me.
I didn't characterize your statements in any way; I quoted them exactly, and anyone can go back and reread your posts and compare them.
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
Next time ask some clarifying questions before posting a reply.
I didn't need clarifying. I was clear on what you wrote, thank you.
Posts: 114 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, aiopj, you said:
“I'm not as concerned about their physical attributes as I am about their chromosomal attributes.Chromosomally-speaking, they are either male or female. That's the true test that cannot be faked, and that's why those who claim to be "trans-gendered" are not really.”
Eden here:
So are you proposing that every intersex person who has parts of both sexual organs have a DUTY to go find out whether the male or the female is dominant in them chromosomally?
And if an intersex person does NOT bother to find out whether he or she is chromosomally male or female, is that intersex person then being disobedient to God in some way, or how do you see that, aiopj?
In relation to Christiniaty, aiopj, is it okay for an intersex person NOT to find out if they are male or female chromosomally or are they committting a sin by not finding out.
And if they are committing a sin, aren't we all committing a sin or sins every day, either bodily or at least with our thoughts?
So aiopj, should an intersex person who is born with both a male sex organ and a female sex organ be REQUIRED to get a chromosomal checkup if they were a Christian?
May God help us to love each other,
Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
WKUHilltopper
Advanced Member
Member # 5472
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
In my opinion, you went to far with the direction given. Our bodies do indeed matter in terms of living. Yet even the straight man is not permitted to have s3x whenever he feels like it. And, although a man may marry any single woman "lawfully" it does not mean that the man is obeying the Spirit of God.
Living in the Spirit is much more than "do this" and "don't do this" it's a lifestyle of obedience to God in everything. And if living by the Spirit is a requirement for the sons of God then God will make it possible to do so. For in every instance of life He will provide the means to follow the Spirit regardless of what organs one may possess.
Aaron
P.S. The insight I have came through some personal experience. My wife's cousin was a hermaphrodite (she's since passed). Her parents gave her a girl's name and dressed her as a girl but she possessed the organs of a man and a woman. Later in life she dressed more as a man because she looked and sounded more like a man and, she admitted, she didn't want to confuse people. Also, she did not have an intimate relationship with anyone. This, she felt, was what God wanted from her.
In human standards she was a pity-case. In her mind she was the Father's child. In my mind she was worthy of much honor due to her life in the Spirit. The world's standards were not her standards. She lived for God and through her God was able to touch the lives of many.
Wisely stated.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by aiopj:
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
... if anyone lives according to the flesh they will die but if they live according to the spirit they will live AND through the Spirit the deeds of the flesh are put to death.
So, if, say, a man "feels" as though a female, he is living in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
... whether or not they were redeemed when they were "straight" or "gay" has no bearing on the work of the Spirit, the requirement for life is the same for both: live by the Spirit of God.
Homosexuality, to God, is an abomination.
So, a person who claims to be homosexual and who practices homosexuality violates the Word of God.
Therefore, he does not live by the Spirit of God Which is the Word.
A person claims to be homosexual. What physical characteristics can he show that make him different?
Your assertions are wrong because you characterized my statements incorrectly. Next time ask some clarifying questions before posting a reply.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
aiopj
Advanced Member
Member # 6768
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
... if anyone lives according to the flesh they will die but if they live according to the spirit they will live AND through the Spirit the deeds of the flesh are put to death.
So, if, say, a man "feels" as though a female, he is living in the flesh, not in the Spirit.
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
... whether or not they were redeemed when they were "straight" or "gay" has no bearing on the work of the Spirit, the requirement for life is the same for both: live by the Spirit of God.
Homosexuality, to God, is an abomination.
So, a person who claims to be homosexual and who practices homosexuality violates the Word of God.
Therefore, he does not live by the Spirit of God Which is the Word.
A person claims to be homosexual. What physical characteristics can he show that make him different?
Posts: 114 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
aiopj
Advanced Member
Member # 6768
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
...it would be hard to condemn their behavior of feeling sometimes physically female and sometimes physically male, I can't hold that against an intersex person, can I, as if, when they are in EITHER condition, they are being an abomination to God, are they?
The Word of God says what It says. It's not for those who are truly born again to soften what It says.
I'm not as concerned about their physical attributes as I am about their chromosomal attributes. Chromosomally-speaking, they are either male, or female. That's the true test that cannot be faked, and that's why those who claim to be "trans-gendered" are not really.
Posts: 114 | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
|
posted
God knows why this person was born like this. He will do what is right and what He wants with them. We will only have to answer for ourselves and what God has give us. This does not happen often and I know God is just and fair. It is up to Him what will happen to this person as we are not the judge and did not create them.
Jesus said: He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” John 14:21 (NKJV)
This is true for this person as we as anyone else. God knows the heart and if the person gives their life to Him then they will do what God tells them to do. He will let this person know what they are to do if they place their faith in Him and come to know Him.
--------------------
Video Tracts
Christian Media
LiveTracts
Friend Me On Facebook
Evangelism TackleBox
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Aaron, good response, and no doubt this relative also got condemned by others as "gay" or "lesbian" or whatever side was in dominance. Of course, for her that may not have mattered as long as she was true to her God, but there must have been a lot of judgment on the part of others who did not know anything about the intersex or hermaphrodite condition.
But, in any event, I agree that even an intersex person has to live after the Spirit as much as is possible, even if they are looking effiminate or masculine while doing it earnestly.
with love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
In my opinion, you went to far with the direction given. Our bodies do indeed matter in terms of living. Yet even the straight man is not permitted to have s3x whenever he feels like it. And, although a man may marry any single woman "lawfully" it does not mean that the man is obeying the Spirit of God.
Living in the Spirit is much more than "do this" and "don't do this" it's a lifestyle of obedience to God in everything. And if living by the Spirit is a requirement for the sons of God then God will make it possible to do so. For in every instance of life He will provide the means to follow the Spirit regardless of what organs one may possess.
Aaron
P.S. The insight I have came through some personal experience. My wife's cousin was a hermaphrodite (she's since passed). Her parents gave her a girl's name and dressed her as a girl but she possessed the organs of a man and a woman. Later in life she dressed more as a man because she looked and sounded more like a man and, she admitted, she didn't want to confuse people. Also, she did not have an intimate relationship with anyone. This, she felt, was what God wanted from her.
In human standards she was a pity-case. In her mind she was the Father's child. In my mind she was worthy of much honor due to her life in the Spirit. The world's standards were not her standards. She lived for God and through her God was able to touch the lives of many.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Hi, Aaron, you said:
“Through the flesh all males are sons and all females are daughters. Yet, in God's Kingdom His children are not sons and daughters...His children are sons who are neither male or female. How can this be?”
“This is so because there is one prerequisite placed upon God's sons: that they live by the spirit of God in them. We, who are God's children, live by the Spirit of God...not according to our flesh.”
Eden here:
Aaron, by saying, “we who are God’s children, live by the Spirit of God…not according to the flesh”, you make it sound like people now no longer marry because they are now not living according to the flesh.
Since both sex organs are present in an intersex person who was born with both sex organs, then the mere physicalness of these organs would confuse a person: which one to choose today? What am I, a boy or a girl?
The reality of the intersex guests is that they have both sex organs so it is hard for them to tell if, and even when, they are being male and being female. Hence, if they think they are female they may want a male husband, until they think they are male and they find themselves with a husband.
I’m not suggesting that anyone should go gay under these intersex circumstances but that a male might inadvertently find himself with a male just when he feels like a male, could easily happen, and then have it be labeled as “gay” by others when in fact, earlier the intersex person felt like a female.
And since intersex persons flip biologically between feeling like a male or a female, having both organs, the intersex persons also acted both effiminate and masculine, so that it would be easy for bystanders, and Christians, to label them as “gay” and thus as an abomination when these intersex persons are not gay but are merely reacting to these their strange intersex biology.
So, Aaron, it is all well and good to SAY that we should live by the Spirit and not according to the flesh, and that therefore the flesh does not matter anymore, but who among is actually able to live 100% by the Spirit? No one. And so the flesh is also very real for these people, as it is for all of us.
The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak. Sometimes the spirit will win, other times the flesh will win. And then what of the intersex person who are born with parts or all of both sex organs? Who are they today?
With love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
Aaron
unregistered
|
posted
Many verses come to mind:
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit[, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Rom 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
and finally
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
God's children live by the Spirit of God and those who live by His Spirit are called "sons of God". Now, God's sons are neither "male or female". It's easy to talk about a son who is not a female but how can we comprehend a son who is not a male? Through the flesh all males are sons and all females are daughters. Yet, in God's Kingdom His children are not sons and daughters...His children are sons who are neither male or female. How can this be?
This is so because there is one prerequisite placed upon God's sons: that they live by the spirit of God in them. We, who are God's children, live by the Spirit of God...not according to our flesh. For, if anyone lives according to the flesh they will die but if they live according to the spirit they will live AND through the Spirit the deeds of the flesh are put to death.
This is true for all children of God, whether or not they were redeemed when they were "straight" or "gay" has no bearing on the work of the Spirit, the requirement for life is the same for both: live by the Spirit of God.
Aaron
IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Eden,
The scriptures speak about people born with sexual disorders as you described, but that does not allow them to continue in sin of any homosexual or a lesbian nature after they have been born again.
Mat 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].
In every circumstance we have a choice, the will to do His will or our own will.
He that is able to receive [it], let him receive [it].
There are some hard choices for those who desire eternal life; there will be few that enter eternal life Yeshua said, broad is the path to destruction and many will go there into, but narrow is the path that leads to eternal life and few will enter.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
This is of course just my opinion on this, but I am willing to share my thought, hoping not to hurt anyone's feelings...
I cannot sleep tonight anyways so I might as well spend some time on the board...
I think that people having been born this way need to make a choice, a decision, whether to live as a man OR live as a woman...it would be wrong, in my opinion, for them to choose to live as a man one day and the next day live as a woman, then the next week live as a man again, and so on...I tend to think that switching back and forth, in other words living both ways, would be wrong?...I cannot believe that a person being born intersex would be compared as either a homosexual or a lesbian...it is a whole different matter in this case...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Eden
unregistered
|
posted
Oprah Winfrey had a program tonight on TV and her guests had a physical condition called medically intersex, that is, the guests had sexual organs which were partially female and partially male.
To give one example, one guests was BORN with what looked like a v*a*g*i*n*a , but it has a 2 inch clitoris.
As a result, this guest even LOOKS and BEHAVES on with half-man, half-woman traits and behavior. Some of these guests found themselves to sometimes feel female, sometimes to feel male, or, intersex.
I wanted to ask, since the Bible says homosexuality is an abomination, what am I to think of someone who is BORN with intersex organs, as Oprah's guests.
To be sure, even an intersex person has to accept Jesus personally in order to receive salvation, but it would be hard to condemn their behavior of feeling sometimes physically female and sometimes physically male, I can't hold that against an intersex person, can I, as if, when they are in EITHER condition, they are being an abomination to God, are they?
with love, Eden
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
