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Topic: When Scoffers Don't See Jesus in You...
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aiopj
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posted
Shouldn't there be more discussion about how to handle unbelievers?
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aiopj
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
... it DOES surprise me that there are so many Christians out there who can basically go to church on Sunday and then live as if they are atheists the rest of the week.
Remember that the Pharisees believed that duty, performance got you to Heaven. That's what the Muslims believe, too.
Jesus said that it is not performance that gets you to the Father.
So, these people who dutifully go to church every week believe that it is their performance which will save them and that they can just go about their disobedient, self-righteous bidness the rest of the time.
Thus, they prove that they still -- STILL -- STILL -- don't know what the Lord requires. However, they want YOU to believe that they do, though what they do and what the Lord says do not square, and you know in Whose favor that leans, don't you.
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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
... it DOES surprise me that there are so many Christians out there who can basically go to church on Sunday and then live as if they are atheists the rest of the week.
I, on the other hand, am not surprised, though I shake my head.
Jesus said -- and says -- essentially, that you are either for Me, or ag'in' Me. There is no lukewarm. No fuzzy in-betweens. No one foot in and one foot out. If you think you have one foot in and one foot out, one foot is on the banana peel.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
I do NOT understand why there are so many Christians who are only partially or lazily interested in the Lord--I don't know what the answer is, aiopj.
I used to go to a church in my neighborhood, and the membership is nearly all senior citizens.
While I was there, I was enthusiastic, wanting to talk about what I learned, testifying and witnessing, all in order to encourage in the Lord.
I found that, in the very vast majority of the cases -- virtually with no exception -- no one was excited about the Lord and no one wanted to talk about Him. Their conversations amongst one another revolved around clothes, hair styles, gossip, sports, and any number of things.
In my excitement for the Lord -- now, I'm not talking about dancing and jumping around and yelling and screaming, just testifying and witnessing and encouraging and relating new revelation -- they looked at me and treated me as though I was just dropped off by a UFO. Now, this is in church, mind you. Rather incredible, wouldn't you say? I thought so, too. I left for another church, and it turned out to be relatively the same.
You would have thought over the past several thousand years that such Good News would bring overwhelming excitement. But no. The Lord is perplexed, too.
However, His Justice is uncompromising.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Why do YOU think that there are so many Christians who spend so little time in the Word and are carnal Christians and still babes after 20 years?
Well, the Lord tells us that their spirits may be willing but that their flesh is weak. They are not fully in the Knowledge, Understanding [Comprehension] and Wisdom of the Lord. Therefore, they cannot bring their flesh under control. They say they want to do this, but do that. Then, they blame you and me because we're pestering them. Unbelievable.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:Why are some people real active with God but most are not? I'm very puzzled by that.
Because those who are not are blind and deaf. If they could see and hear, they would act quite differently. Not perfectly, but differently. No one is expected to be perfect, except in love which I explain in another thread.
Therefore, they are disobedient. They have been taken off the Way. It's pathetic.
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Eden
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aiopj, ultimately I agree that it's up to the individual to learn more or less about the Lord, and it DOES surprise me that there are so many Christians out there who can basically go to church on Sunday and then live as if they are atheists the rest of the week.
I do NOT understand why there are so many Christians who are only partially or lazily interested in the Lord--I don't know what the answer is, aiopj.
Why do YOU think that there are so many Christians who spend so little time in the Word and are carnal Christians and still babes after 20 years?
Why are some people real active with God but most are not? I'm very puzzled by that.
love, Eden
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aiopj
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posted
Just to be clear:
Everybody has a choice: blessings, or curses.
Mountains are not your blessings.
The path to Truth is line of sight, and, if a person can't see the Truth, it's because a mountain is in his way.
He may choose to march around that mountain. That would mean that he puts more faith in that mountain -- gives that mountain more authority -- than he gives to the Truth -- that is, the Lord.
Or
He can go to the Word and ask Him for guidance to remove the perceptions that hinder him from hearing and seeing the Truth spoken and/or written by one who has the Word as witness.
There are many who allow such a perception mountain to interfere, to come between them and the Truth, and guess what? They try to justify that by saying that somebody else kept them from the Truth, even though that somebody gives them the Truth.
There is only one spirit who wants to keep you from the Truth, and you know what spirit that is. That spirit doesn't give you the Truth, rather tries to get you to veer away from it. He will jump on your perceptions -- that is, your weaknesses -- like Oprah on a baked ham. The Devil will suggest manipulations that, if you accept them, will make you see things that are not there, and you will act as though they are there. Then, you will blame those things, even though you had the power all along -- according to Christ -- to avoid those perceptions.
Well, He's done all He can. The rest is up to you, and nobody else.
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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
You’re more like, Hey, everybody, I have read the Word of God probably more than anybody here, so you would do well to listen up!
Nnnnnnooo, Eden, that's your interpretation.
I don't say that all.
I present to Word and/or what I have found out about the Word and let the chips fall where they may.
As I have said, I'm not the mountain. People's perceptions are mountains, and, if they want to march around those mountains for the rest of their lives, that's between God and them. It's not between them and me.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
I like learning more about the Word of God and have my faith increased, but I also like it presented in a loving, friendly way.
I've explained all about "love" and "compassion" in another thread. According to that, I present the Word in a loving way. Jesus was not about making friends, rather Salvation. He could have made friends with the Pharisees. He didn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden: You’re more like, You better learn this or ….I’m leaving!!!’
That's a misrepresentation of what I wrote and what I intend. I'm very careful about what I write. I write what I intend, and I intend what I write.
As a matter of fact, after virtually every time I post, I go back and revise and edit and add and take away so that the post says what I want to say. What the Lord wants to post to say.
I never told anybody that they MUST learn what I write. Whether, or not, they learn is between God and them, although God has said that they are to increase, no matter what. That means that people are to get rid of the mountains in the way of their knowing the Word. Their perceptions that get in the way are the mountains. I'm not standing in their way. I'm giving them the Way. However, they must make their own choices, and life goes on.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Teach us with meekness and gentleness and we’ll be able to hear what you would like to share.
I am not people's hearing problem. My posts are not people's comprehension problem.
Neither I, nor my style, are their obstacles to Truth. That is, unless they'all make them their obstacles. As I say, people must choose whether they want the Truth, or they want to go on marching around those mountains, avoiding the Truth and blaming somebody else when they don't get It. They must examine themselves to see whether THEY are hindering themselves.
Now, Eden, you're not telling me that I and my writing style are more powerful than the Lord, are you? I hope not. However, one never knows.
Then, Eden, no one can say that I, through my writing, stop them, can they.
On Judgment Day, the Lord will not accept your pointing to me and saying, "HE kept me from doing it!" He will tell you that nobody stopped you from the Truth. Except you.
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Eden
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aiopj said to Eden:
“Did Jesus present the Word hard, or did He soften It? He presented the Word as It is, harsh in judgment.”
Eden here:
2 Corinthians 10:1
Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence am base among you, but being absent am bold toward you.
Bold, yes, but it must be mixed with and presented with meekness and gentleness.
You’re more like, Hey, everybody, I have read the Word of God probably more than anybody here, so you would do well to listen up! I like learning more about the Word of God and have my faith increased, but I also like it presented in a loving, friendly way. You’re more like, You better learn this or ….I’m leaving!!!’
Anyway, you do seem to know a lot of the Word and that is wonderful. Teach us with meekness and gentleness and we’ll be able to hear what you would like to share.
With love in Christ,
Eden
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aiopj
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So, Eden, you're not saying that other people have relinquished to me control over their destiny, are you? You're not saying that they are helpless? I didn't know I have that power over people. Imagine that.
Had I had that power in 1992, I could have caused everybody to vote for George Herbert Walker Bush, and we would never had to suffer through The Clinton Paralysis.
If it's not me, you're saying it's what I say. However, have people relinquished to what I say the power over their destiny?
In Mark 11, Jesus said that we can pray away the mountains that hinder us from Knowledge, Understanding [Comprehension] and Wisdom.
Now, I'm not stopping anybody. What I write is not stopping anybody. Those aren't the hindrances, the mountains.
The hindrances, the mountains, reside in them, and people let those hindrances control them, stop them from receiving the Truth.
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aiopj
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So, Eden, are you saying that a scoffer who denies God and Jesus, doesn't see God, nor Jesus, is supposed to be able to see Jesus in us??
According to the laws of spiritual physics, those two views, separated by 180° of variance, cannot exist in one place.
One could also say that spiritual zoning laws prohibit both views on the same property.
Either they can see, or they can't. They say they can't. So, they can't.
In the Garden, cherubim guarded the Tree -- still guard It -- from being touched by those who reject God.
So, they can't touch It and touch It all at the same time. According to spiritual physics, anyway.
God tells me one thing, and men tell me quite another. Am I supposed to believe what God tells me, or what men tell me? God can't be telling me one thing, and others another.
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aiopj
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Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Those who reject Jesus are in that position, as filthy rags.
However, in the one who is truly born again, the Blood of Jesus has washed that rag clean, and that once-filthy rag that was dirtying up the world with self-righteousness, can now, as a fellow laborer with God in His work of Redemption, help Him wipe others clean.
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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
You are probably describing yourself in the above...
Is that a fact, or your assumption? Cuz you use the word "probably," and that indicates that you don't really know, even though you are trying to portray yourself as knowing.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
I think your PRESENTATION METHOD of teh Word needs to be mixed with a bit MORE LOVE toward those who are NOT AS ADVANCED in the Word as you are.
By the way, don't confuse enthusiasm and passion for some kind of arrogance. Those who are truly born again are supposed to be bold, confident in the Word. They are to present It boldly, confidently.
Did Jesus present the Word hard, or did He soften It? He presented the Word as It is, harsh in judgment. He didn't soften, nor change, it for those who came for His Ministry.
Was God hard on Israel? Yes, and, as a bonus, He didn't enable their disobedience and their emotions by patting them on their backs and saying, "There, there." When they didn't understand and they didn't obey, He made them walk an 11-day trip for 40 years, just so they could get the Message. In other words, He saw that they let mountains get in the way of their understanding. So, He let them circle a mountain.
How many people, claiming that they are truly born again, are letting mountains get in the way of receiving the Truth? And whose fault is that?
Anyway, God and Jesus -- one and the same -- presented It as It is, didn't He. The problem was -- and is -- on the receiving end. The hindrance is on the receiving end. The Truth is being sent out, but the receivers are are hooked up to receive signals other than the Truth.
So, of what kind of "love" are you talking? Earthly and worldly, or biblical? They are not the same.
You can't be talking about earthly, worldly "love" because those who are truly born again are to avoid and ignore the worldly. Men's idea of "love" certainly is not the same as God's, is it. Just look at the world around you and tell me that it is. Besides:
Those who are truly born again are not guided by earthly circumstances:
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%208:23&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2010:28;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2012:4;&version=9;
So, we are not to pay attention to the blatherings of men:
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ecclesiastes%2010:13;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Proverbs%2019:3;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Titus%201:14;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:41;&version=9;
For they don't speak the Truth, rather they speak foolishness:
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Timothy%206:5;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Timothy%204:4;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023:13;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:9;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%201:25;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%206:7;&version=9;
DATA POINT: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%204:25;&version=9;
The Truth is the Word! The Word is the Truth! Unless men speak the Truth, what they say is worthless.
God created everything out of love. Out of His love also came faith, and out of faith came His works of Creation. Creation was done in six days. He rested on the seventh day. So, after Adam and Eve jumped, what else was there to do?
God began His work of Redemption. Jesus said that God had been working up to the time of Jesus and that, "now," He -- Jesus -- must work. Jesus passed that responsibility to those who are truly born again. The Word says that those who are truly born again are fellow laborers with Him in God's work of Redemption. That's why, out of our love for Him, we have faith in what He can do -- for He demonstrated it -- and, out of that faith, we work, with Him, toward the Redemption of others. In God's eyes, there is no other more important work.
So, what's God's ambition? It grows out of His love, His faith. And, so, He works. His ambition is SALVATION. He is concerned about our Salvation. He is doing it for us, not just for Him. He wants to save all of us. Jesus said that only few will find the narrow gate to Salvation. A remnant.
Gods ambition, therefore, is supposed to be OUR ambition. We are supposed to be helping Him work Redemption.
Therefore, "love," in the biblical sense -- which is the sense that concerns those who are truly born again -- must mean, "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others," and, when coupled with what Jesus said about our neighbor, it must mean, "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for others' Salvation as you have for your own."
There. You have your definition of "love." That doesn't fit with the world's perception and definition of "love," does it? Yet, those claiming to be truly born again use the world's definition and impose it on the Word, thereby imposing it on others. I'm not beholden to the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
I have a housemate (not a Christian) who is full knowledge, but he mixes no compassion with it...
"Compassion," in the biblical sense -- our most important sense -- is similar to "love." It is, "unselfish concern for those who will die without Christ." That's what Jesus was concerned about. That is also our concern. Nothing else really matters, and it is only the Word -- the ONLY Way, not men's ways -- That will save men.
Again, if people are letting mountains, like their perceptions, get in the way of receiving the Truth, Jesus told them to pray those mountains away so they can receive the Truth from one who expresses the Truth. If they don't, they have only themselves to blame, and they can circle that mountain over and over again until they get it.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Mix your knowledge with love, and people won't say that to you.
We expect scoffers and mockers -- unbelievers -- not to see Jesus in us. They don't see God, nor Jesus, anywhere. They don't recognize Him. They wouldn't recognize Him if He bopped them on the nose. I thought I made that clear.
So, why should we be concerned if the scoffer, or mocker, doesn't see Jesus in us? Will he see God, or Jesus, in us and nowhere else??
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:"If I know all things (even the Word) but have not love, I am but tingling brass"
The word you want there is, "tinkling":
quote:
1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
It's talking about a person who speaks without Knowledge -- capitalized to indicate that it is God's Knowledge, as opposed to men's, puny knowledge.
It also acknowledges that, without charity -- that is, love, meaning "unselfish concern for the Salvation of others" -- my words have no meaning to those who need Salvation. My words, then, will be harsh because they have no connection to the Truth. Jesus said that men's words and their words about Him should not be received if they don't measure up to the Truth; and He said that even HIS Words would not be received by those with tin ears who hinder, don't listen.
However, I've posted the Truth of the Word, and, so, they may be perceived, for any number of personal reasons, to be tinny when they are not. The Words of Jesus were perceived by many to be tinny, also, because those many had perceptions that hindered and interfered with their receiving His Words. He told them to look out for that, and they refused to understand.
quote:
Originally posted by Eden:
Mix more love with your knowledge of the Word and it will be easier to receive, which should be your ultimate goal, that your knowledge of the Word can also be RECEIVED.
If people aren't receiving the Truth, they need to check themselves for what they may be doing, or not doing, to hinder the Truth. I can't stop them from getting the Truth. They stop themselves by building walls to "Truth-proof" themselves and blame it on somebody else. In other words, the perception, to them, is greater than God! That's what they are admitting. They hand authority over to the perception. That's no less an important point than Adam and Eve handing authority over to the Devil in the Garden.
My father says that he cannot stand to watch T.D. Jakes because, my father says, he screams and yells too much. I tell him that he must look beyond that to receive the Truth of his message from the Word of God. It's not Jakes who is hindering my father, rather my father who is hindering the Truth from Jakes. Of course, like you and others, he doesn't see that. So, keep wandering around that mountain.
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Eden
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Hi, aiopj. You said:
"You go to any number of Christian message boards out there that have been taken over by vicious scoffers and mockers and you don't respond in kind but you do declare and/or invoke God's blessing and mercy by proclaiming the Word on the issues being discussed, and you're met, almost immediately, with, "I don't see Jesus in you!"'
Eden here:
You are probably describing yourself in the above, and I do think you have a lot of knowledge of the Word, and that is very good.
However, I think your PRESENTATION METHOD of teh Word needs to be mixed with a bit MORE LOVE toward those who are NOT AS ADVANCED in the Word as you are.
I have a housemate (not a Christian) who is full knowledge, but he mixes no compassion with it, so his presentation is cold, hard, tough, like a Russian babushka matron on each floor of the International Hotel in Moscow in the Soviet Union days. She knows a lot but she is not mixing it with love.
Mix your knowledge with love, and people won't say that to you.
"If I know all things (even the Word) but have not love, I am but tingling brass"
Therefore, my brother, you Topic title should NOT have been, "When Scoffers Don't See Jesus in You" but should have been "When Scoffers Don't See Jesus in Me".
1 Corinthians 13
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and pb[understand all mysteries and all knowledge[/b]; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.
Mix more love with your knowledge of the Word and it will be easier to receive, which should be your ultimate goal, that your knowledge of the Word can also be RECEIVED,
Eden
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aiopj
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Now, you diligently study the Word. You meditate on the Word. The Lord fills your thoughts. Some television programs and commercials offer to tempt you and, immediately, the Word comes to mind and heart, and, with It, you guard the gate from the wiles of the Devil. This is you, the new creature and you are fully wise to his shenanigans.
You go to any number of Christian message boards out there that have been taken over by vicious scoffers and mockers and you don't respond in kind but you do declare and/or invoke God's blessing and mercy by proclaiming the Word on the issues being discussed, and you're met, almost immediately, with, "I don't see Jesus in you!"
[That statement is on the list of statements scoffers have at the ready to challenge those who are truly born again who show up on those message boards. The accusers of the brethren.]
When a scoffer, mocker says to you, "I don't see Jesus in you!" is there something wrong with him, or you?
[Of course, those who are truly born again know that the Devil wants you to believe that it's you. However, they also know that there is now no condemnation, and they should fully rest on that.]
After all, the scoffer and the mocker are blinded, either by God, or the Devil; God doesn't reveal His Mysteries to the unbeliever, and neither does the Devil want God's Mysteries revealed to the unbeliever, and one of His Mysteries is Jesus in you. In any case, the scoffer and the mocker say they don't see God in Creation, neither in the Bible. So, how CAN they see Jesus in you?? I think they can't.
Further, the natural man thinks that spiritual things are foolishness. He has already talked himself out of it. He doesn't see that, either.
So, if the scoffer, mocker says to you, "I don't see Jesus in you!" is there something wrong with the scoffer, the mocker, or with you?
Just wonderin'.
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