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Topic: Can we believe in Jesus without the help of God?
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Eden,
You are very welcome. I am only afraid that we live in a world where many get exited about a savior, but not so exited about the Lordship of Jesus. If I could , let me explain to you my conviction on this topic. If I say that I believe in Jesus, doesnt that also mean that I must believe in His Words? If He comes to live in me as a savior, should not His words also be life to me? Did not Jesus' words carry all the answers to eternal life? I see a world that sees the beutiful child in the manger, but not the man crowned with the Glory of God coming on a white Horse. The religious sect said that no man can claim to be God, but we have a God who has raised up a man to be Lord of all. The Son of God who went as low as He could go, and was raised as high as any man could go. Praise Him, worship Him, and love his Words as much as you do Him all to the glory of God. With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
I wanted to thank you, oneinchrist, for reminding me, or teaching me, that I was preaching/teaching a partial gospel when I was saying that people had to ongoingly believe that Jesus died for their sins.
You reminded me that a person also had to believe that Jesus was MORE than a human, and I had been omitting that, but after I learned that from you, I have been adding that one also has to believe in the resurrection of Jesus (which makes Him a de facto Son of God since no HUMAN can do something like that) or straightout believe that Jesus was the Son of God with or without the resurrection, say, from His miracles.
Anyway, oneinchrist, thanks for filling in my gospel.
I really like your Christian maturity.
Love,
Eden
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Believing is a command, because unbelief is disobedience. So the question is not whether or not we can believe, but whether or not we will believe. When Paul was asked what to do in order to be saved, Pauls reply was an imperative reply.....Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved. In 1 John 3:23 it states
And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
1 Peter 2:7 states Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious, but to those who are disobedient, the stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Rogg
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Member # 5394
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posted
John 6:44
44."No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Though if somebody, say an Indian in a village, were seeking the truth in their heart, I believe the Lord will reveal himself to them.
Jesus tells us that we must be drawn to him by the Father.
He uses us by his Holy Spirit to do the drawing of souls to the Kingdom.
Thats why it is so important that our lamps burn bright with the power and presence of the Holy Spirit. That is the light that will illuminate and draw whomever you are witnessing to, to the reality of Jesus.
The darker a persons spirit is, the harder it is to convince with logic and knowledge, but being in the presence of the Holy Spirit in a higher measure, will illuminate a person to the truth.
We need to get these little petty sins out of our lives and learn to walk in his presence before his throne.
Believe that our walk is a very narrow walk, remove the worldly things from our lives.
Replace our rock-n-roll with beautiful praise and worship music.
Remove all worldly associations that keep us bound.
Stop watching worldly movies, remove books and video from our midst and our camps.
Anything that is not of God is of the world.
Shriek 3 is of the world.
Astrology books are of the world.
Christian rock, heavy metal, and Christian rap is of the world.
Do you think the Angels in heaven sing heavy metal and rap before the throne of God?
We are to live in his presence and he will not tolerate such angry music in his presence.
Wake up people and smell the coffee.
The Lord is not mocked.
We need to start walking that narrow walk he has called us to, or we will not progress in our race.
We will just run in place and exhaust ourselves, and not get anywhere.
Any object or anything that has to do with sin, remove from your life, and confess it to the Lord as sin, and he will heal you.
2 Corinthians 6:17
17.Therefore "Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you."
Rog
Posts: 83 | From: St. Louis MO | Registered: Jan 2006
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Eden
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posted
oneinchrist, I'm not over-interested in whether we can believe in Jesus without the help of God. I was just wondering if unsaved people can end up believing in Jesus without the Father revealing it to him.
Of course, since the Word of God CAME to people from God through His inspiration, the reading and hearing of the Word eventually can lead to a person believing that Jesus died for their sins and that Jesus was the Son of God.
And so it could be said that the Father showed it to us too, through the Word of God.
Whether Peter understood that Jesus was the Messiah and the Son of God by way of the Word of God, which in Peter' day was the Old Testament, I don't know, but it may be that, in Peter's case, the Father directly revealed it to Peter through the Holy Spirit or a vision or dream.
So the Father showing that Jesus was the Son of God to us may take these two various forms, either from the Word or through the Holy Spirit.
In our day, it would probably be more through hearing the Word rather than the Holy Spirit, because since the time of Peter, we have a larger body of Christian scripture to believe by than Peter had.
But, no over-interest, oneinchrist, just, interested.
With love,
Eden
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
I feel obligated to post biblical support for the statement that I made about Jesus being revealed as the Son of God even prior to the foundational confession of Peter. I would like to note that it appears that Luke is writing in chronological sequence a record of events beginning with a demon-posessed man healed , then a girl restored to life, then sending out the twelve, Herod seeks to see Jesus, feeding the five thousand...and finally with Peter confessing Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Luke 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, fell down before Him, and with a loud voice said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, do not torment me!"
Luke clearly states that his purpose in writing this Gospel is to present "an orderly account" (1:3) of all that Jesus began both to do and teach.
I would like to conclude that even though it is an irrefutable truth that this revelation is of the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit may choose whatever means it desires to make it known. Exactly what the communicated means were for Peter we are not positive about, but we are certain of the source..... so I concede that I only speculate that Peter was at the scene of the possessed man when He cried out. What an unbelievable irony. The Devils cry out the truth.....but the religious sect cry out blasphemy. Who is the man that can see the difference?, but the one who seeks after the heart of God. With love in Christ, Daniel.
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Eden,
I hope you didnt think that I meant an overtone of sarcasm in my response...because that is not what I intended. By using the terms trick question I meant that what you were asking seemed contradictory in itself. How can anyone believe without God? God is the one who gives us all the ability to believe...once again what matters is where we put our belief. You are also asking about the confession that Peter made which has to do with who Jesus is to us. An interesting thing to note in the gospels is that reference was made to Jesus as the Son of God even before Peter made the confession...by the ones who were posessed by the devil(seemingly ironic, but justifiable). So, we can receive this truth by different types of sources, but yet they all derive ultimately from the Holy Spirit. Most of us in this day and age believe it because it is included in scripture.
Eden, may I ask why you are searching so hard on the question of belief in Jesus as the Son of God? Are you trying to see how it fits into a particular set of beliefs? Im not sure I understand your diligence at this topic... and maybe that is my fault. With love in Christ. Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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posted
That's kind of a trick answer, oneinchrist.
Jesus said that Peter could not have known that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God, except that the Father had first shown it to Peter:
Matthew 16
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 Then Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona. For flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Now, if it is mandatory that I also believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of the Living God, can I do it WITHOUT the help of the Father, oneinchrist?
What you described as, “a natural ability to trust in something”.
Now, it could also be that people can realize who Jesus is by natural ability, but simply that Peter had not yet conclued that by natural ability and so the Father HURRIED UP THE PROCESS and showed it to Peter:
Matthew 16
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 Then Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona. For flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
What do you think? Can we realize that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God, on our own?
With love,
Eden
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oneinchrist
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Member # 6532
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Hi Eden,
Thats kind of a trick question you are asking because without God there would not be anything for us to believe in. God is the one who has given us something to believe in. To believe as in the way that the bible means (such as in John 3:16) is to put your full trust in. Certainly we all have the ability to put our trust in something.....what matters is where we put that trust. With love in Christ, Daniel.
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Eden
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Can we believe in Jesus without the help of God?
Hi, TB125. You said in your post:
“I'm not sure that there is much spiritual ‘fruit’ to be gained by engaging in debates about Christianity and its doctrines or beliefs in respect to those of other religions.”
Eden here:
TB125, I was saved from among many persons being present in one location, by the preaching of a group of Christians. The Bible says that “heaven rejoices when one sinner is saved”:
Luke 15:10
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
On a site like [b]www.christianity-debate.com, there would be LOTS of people who will need salvation. But, nothing is impossible with God.
My question is: Can people believe without the help of God?
Is there a type of human on earth who CAN believe in Jesus by themselves just because of who they are in the earth after Jesus lived?
Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but My Father who is in heaven {has revealed it to you}.
Can God make anyone believe in Jesus if God wants?
Or does who accepts salvation depend ONLY on the type of human being we now are since Jesus came to earth?
Can humans believe WITHOUT the help of God, just by being a certain type of human.
Who can believe? Only someone helped by God or is there a kind of human who can believe by themselves?
With love,
Eden
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