|
Author
|
Topic: Study The He's And Him's
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
Is God's nature changed by Jesus being divine and human?
The Christian doctrine concerning Jesus' two natures is called the hypostatic union. It is the teaching that the Divine Word of God (John 1:1) "became flesh and dwelt among us," (John 1:14). Therefore, Jesus is both divine and human in one person (Col. 2:9); He has two natures: human and divine. But some who oppose the Trinity and Jesus' incarnation (the Divine Word becoming a man), say that if Jesus is God in flesh this must mean that God's nature changed because God added a human nature to His divine nature. This would violate Malachi 3:6 which says that God does not change. But, the union of the two natures of Jesus in one person does not constitute a change in the nature of God.
Since the hypostatic union teaches that in the one person of Jesus there are two natures, the divine nature of Jesus is not affected by union with the human nature because there is no fusion of the two natures. That is, the divine nature is not combined with the human nature to make a third thing. This would be the error known as monophysitism. Jesus is not a new third thing with a fused-together new nature. Instead, it is a union. An example of a union is marriage between a man and a woman. Each is separate, but in marriage "...they shall become one flesh," (Gen. 2:24), yet they remain two distinct individuals. They are not blended into a new third thing. Fusion, on the other hand, can be illustrated by the combining copper and Zinc that can be fused together to form a new third thing called brass. In this case, the two elements loose their identity and are merged together into something new. But in a union, the elements do not loose their identity or nature. The hypostatic union is not a hypostatic fusion and the two natures of Jesus do not lose their distinction and they are not altered.
Furthermore, within the union of the two natures in the one person of Christ, the divine nature is still divine and the human nature is still human. One is not altered by the presence of the other anymore than my spirit in me is altered in nature by its indwelling a physical body. Likewise, the divine Word is not altered by indwelling human flesh.
Finally, the doctrine of the Trinity is that God is three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This does not mean three gods. There is only one God. The Trinitarian nature of God is not altered by the union of the Word with humanity since it was the divine Word that humbled Himself to become a man (John 1:1,14; Phil. 2:5-8), not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Therefore, by definition the Trinity is unaffected by the union of the Word with humanity in the incarnation of Jesus.
But who said Gods nature changed? I dont see that.
I have seen verse 14 misused so many times. But when it says the Word became flesh it isnt talking about skin and blood. The definition of the word flesh is carnally minded. Its not talking about Jesus. Its talking about the flesh being carnally minded, is now being spiritually minded, walking according to the Word(verses).
John 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NKJ)
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(NKJ)
4561 sarx (sarx);
probably from the base of 4563; flesh (as stripped of the skin), i.e. (strictly) the meat of an animal (as food), or (by extension) the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external, or as the means of kindred), or (by implication) human nature (with its frailties [physically or morally] and passions), or (specifically) a human being (as such):
KJV-- carnal (-ly, + -ly minded), flesh ([-ly]).
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
(NKJ)
The Word was God, but God gave His Word(verses) to Jesus and the Word came through Jesus in verse 17. The Word was God verse14 the only begotten Word of God that is full of grace and truth came through the only begotten Son of God-Jesus in verse 17 and 18.
IP: Logged | 
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
quote:
I guess your going to have to add the Word of God to your critics.
BrotherBrown...with all due respect, before criticizing what I have posted so far in this thread, please visit this link below and criticize the person(s) that wrote those texts...I wrote none of them myself...
web page
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
Is God's nature changed by Jesus being divine and human?
The Christian doctrine concerning Jesus' two natures is called the hypostatic union. It is the teaching that the Divine Word of God (John 1:1) "became flesh and dwelt among us," (John 1:14). Therefore, Jesus is both divine and human in one person (Col. 2:9); He has two natures: human and divine. But some who oppose the Trinity and Jesus' incarnation (the Divine Word becoming a man), say that if Jesus is God in flesh this must mean that God's nature changed because God added a human nature to His divine nature. This would violate Malachi 3:6 which says that God does not change. But, the union of the two natures of Jesus in one person does not constitute a change in the nature of God.
Since the hypostatic union teaches that in the one person of Jesus there are two natures, the divine nature of Jesus is not affected by union with the human nature because there is no fusion of the two natures. That is, the divine nature is not combined with the human nature to make a third thing. This would be the error known as monophysitism. Jesus is not a new third thing with a fused-together new nature. Instead, it is a union. An example of a union is marriage between a man and a woman. Each is separate, but in marriage "...they shall become one flesh," (Gen. 2:24), yet they remain two distinct individuals. They are not blended into a new third thing. Fusion, on the other hand, can be illustrated by the combining copper and Zinc that can be fused together to form a new third thing called brass. In this case, the two elements loose their identity and are merged together into something new. But in a union, the elements do not loose their identity or nature. The hypostatic union is not a hypostatic fusion and the two natures of Jesus do not lose their distinction and they are not altered.
Furthermore, within the union of the two natures in the one person of Christ, the divine nature is still divine and the human nature is still human. One is not altered by the presence of the other anymore than my spirit in me is altered in nature by its indwelling a physical body. Likewise, the divine Word is not altered by indwelling human flesh.
Finally, the doctrine of the Trinity is that God is three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This does not mean three gods. There is only one God. The Trinitarian nature of God is not altered by the union of the Word with humanity since it was the divine Word that humbled Himself to become a man (John 1:1,14; Phil. 2:5-8), not the Father or the Holy Spirit. Therefore, by definition the Trinity is unaffected by the union of the Word with humanity in the incarnation of Jesus.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
The word Trinity is not in the Bible...
Some critics of the Trinity doctrine claim that since the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, it isn't true. Furthermore, some assert that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have stated the doctrine clearly.
First of all, it is illogical to claim that since the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible that its concept is not taught therein. This kind of objection usually demonstrates a prejudice against the teaching of the Trinity. Instead, the person should look to God's word to see if it is taught or not.
Second, there are many biblical concepts that people believe in that don't have a specific word describing them used in the Bible. For example, the word "bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway to describe the Bible. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. We don't have to see a specific word in the Bible in order for the concept it describes to be true.
Following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned.
Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.
Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).
Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8).
Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument. Furthermore, to say that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have clearly taught it in scripture, is also an invalid argument. Something does not have to be clearly formulated in the Bible to be valid. Not all things taught in the Bible are perfectly clear. Take a look at the book of Revelation. It contains many things that are cryptic that must be interpreted after examining all of the Bible. Even then, there are disagreements as to what some things mean. Yet, we know that the truths there are true whether or not we discover them.
Nevertheless, there are scriptures that demonstrate a Trinitarian aspect.
Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
I guess your going to have to add the Word of God to your critics.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
IP: Logged |
|
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
quote:
Brotherbrown writes - you poor misguided soul. The Word is the means by which God created everything. He said" Let there be" and it was so. The only Faithful and True Witness is Jesus. Jesus the first born of all creation.
Brotherbrown, You Poor Misguided Soul
There is a growing body of believers who are good, upstanding, well- motivated people. It might well be asked, "If they are Christians and want to do what's right, how can they go so far wrong in their doctrine?"
The answer, of course, is that even the best motivated of hearts can stumble when the head leads it down an errant path.
I believe their motivation is right, while their performance is in error. Should we chance divisiveness by discussing the doctrinal misconceptions they promote?
This is not a simple matter of "to each his own." The Word of God is given to us to be our staff against the world, our strength, and our guide to proper doctrine. The Word tells us to rightly divide the Word (II Timothy 3:16).
God gave us His Word so we could, through study and application, develop sound doctrine. Admittedly, all fall short of complete knowledge of God's intent for us in this day.
I believe God deliberately left some fine points obscured so we would have to study His Word as an ongoing and perpetual component of our Christian life.
I do feel, however, that there is a difference between freedom to search out God's meaning from His Word, and license to promote doctrines which are barely suggested within the Word.
The "New Issue" or "Jesus Only" or "No Trinity" doctrines erupted within the Pentecostal movement about 1914.
While it started as a friendly debate over the question of the correct method for water baptism, it quickly developed into a fierce controversy over the nature of the Godhead. The argument in those early days was basically over the effort to reconcile the words of the Lord in Matthew 28:19 and Peter's words in Acts 2:38. Suddenly the thing exploded.
Those who practiced baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Jesus Only) claimed a special revelation from the Lord which would result in the correct manner of water baptism. And, you might ask, what was this tremendous, tradition-defying revelation?
In effect it was this: Peter introduced the new baptismal method at Pentecost because, supposedly, the Holy Ghost had revealed unto him that the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ.
In other words, their "revelation" was that there is only one person in the Godhead and that is Jesus Christ. They also vehemently opposed the doctrine of the Trinity, claiming it was of human origin.
The argument became more heated, the controversy more explosive, and the split grew wider.
Three Gods or just one?
We teach there is one God manifest in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Jesus Only people teach that Christ is the Father, He is the Son and He is the Holy Ghost. Hence the name, Jesus Only. I believe we can provide proper evidence from the Word of God that this is not the case and that the teaching advanced by these people is erroneous and does not accord proper due and honor to the Godhead.
The Scripture does state there is one God. But the word "one" relates to unity as well as number. I John 5:7 clearly means one in unity, as does St. John 17:11-21. And yet there are three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The three are spoken of as one in number and yet treated individually in Scripture. There is one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 8:6; Ehpesians 4:3-6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality. The Father is called God (I Corinthians 8:6), the Son is called God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3- 4). Individually, each is called God; collectively, they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word "God" can be used either in the singular or in the plural, like sheep.
Everything that could pertain to God collectively could also apply equally to each member of the Godhead as individuals. However, there are some particulars which relate to each individual person of the deity as to position, office, and work that could not be attributed to either of the other members of the Godhead. For instance, the Father is the head of Christ (I Corinthians 11:3). The Son is the only begotten of the Father (II John 1:3). The Holy Ghost proceeds from both the Father and the Son (John 14:16; Acts 2:3-4).
The names of God prove plurality of persons. The Hebrew word Elohim, translated "God" in Genesis 1:1 and also in more than 2,700 other places in the Old Testament, is a uniplural noun which means "more than one." Had the sacred writer been led to use the singular El, then there would have been no indication of a divine plurality. But in this initial reference to God, he was led of the Holy Ghost to pen the Word Elohim (Genesis 1:1).
Also when one considers that the word Elohim is used about ten to one over the word El, we would have to conclude that this preference for the plural over the singular indicates a definite sign of plurality in the Godhead.
Genesis 3:22, where it says, "the man has become as one of us," proves plurality of persons by the use of the pronoun "us." Two Lords are mentioned in Genesis 19:24--one on earth and one in heaven. Two Lords sit side by side in Psalms 110:1-5, in Matthew 22:44, and in Acts 2:33-34, 36. Two and three Persons are mentioned in the introductions to many New Testament books: Romans, James, I Corinthians, I Peter, to name a few.
Jesus is NOT the father -
Only one Scripture in the Word of God states that Jesus is the Father. This is found in Isaiah, chapter 9, and it is a Hebrew idiom concerning the terminology of the Jews. And we know from the Word of God that while Jesus was on earth the Father was in heaven (Matthew 5:16-48). We also know (from Scripture) that Christ now sits at the right hand of the Father.
Jesus said He would confess men before His Father which was in heaven, proving He (Jesus) is not Himself the Father (Matthew 10:32; Revelation 3:5). Jesus always prayed to the Father as a separate person (Matthew 11:25). Both Jesus and Satan refer to God apart from Jesus (Matthew 4:6-10). Jesus was the only begotten Son of the Father.
Hence, Jesus could not be the Father, nor could He beget Himself (John 1:14). Over 80 times in the Word f God Jesus affirmed that He was not the Father, nor was He the only person in the Godhead.
Admittedly, we do not understand everything about the Trinity. However, it does become somewhat less confusing and mysterious if we don't try to force two or more separate Persons into becoming only one Person, simply because we choose not to recognize that the true meaning of the word "one" actually refers to unity.
So what we have is, only one Scripture (easily explained) in the Old Testament stating that Jesus is the Father, and so very, very many confirming that He is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT Jesus or the Father
The Holy Spirit is another and He is from both the Father and the Son (John 5:32). So that the Holy Spirit could come, it was necessary that Jesus go away (John 16:5-15). Even then, though, He could not be sent from God until Christ was glorified. But at that time He would be sent from both the Father and the Son (John 7:37-39). The Holy Spirit was sent from the Father to endue Jesus with power.
This clearly requires three persons--the One who sent Him, and the One being sent, and the One who received Him!
A clear distinction is made between the Son who prays, the Father to whom He prays, and the Holy Spirit for whom (which) He prays (John 14:16).
The descent of the Holy Spirit acknowledged the arrival of Jesus in heaven to sit at the right hand of God, thus proving three separate and distinct persons (Acts 2:33-34; John 7:39).
So, Jesus is God; the Holy Ghost is God; the Father is God. But Jesus is not the Holy Spirit; Jesus is not the Father. And neither is the Father the Lord Jesus Christ; nor is the Father the Holy Spirit.
The scriptural passages which provide the basis for the Trinitarian doctrine cannot be reconciled to the Jesus Only position without totally disregarding the meaning of language and without totally ignoring many contrary Scriptures.
LIke I explained on the other thread. You have lots of carnal opinion, but absolutely no proof.
You even try to throw in the old testament that is obsolete.But what you are doing is calling Jesus a liar.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
And lets look at this verse in the new testament.
It says to judge yourself. Are you abiding(living) in the new testament doctrine of Christ?
II Jn 1:8-11
8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward.
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
(NKJ)
Because your not looking for the true God or the true Jesus if your not abiding in the new testament.
IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
The word Trinity is not in the Bible...
Some critics of the Trinity doctrine claim that since the word "trinity" is not found in the Bible, it isn't true. Furthermore, some assert that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have stated the doctrine clearly.
First of all, it is illogical to claim that since the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible that its concept is not taught therein. This kind of objection usually demonstrates a prejudice against the teaching of the Trinity. Instead, the person should look to God's word to see if it is taught or not.
Second, there are many biblical concepts that people believe in that don't have a specific word describing them used in the Bible. For example, the word "bible" is not found in the Bible, but we use it anyway to describe the Bible. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are words not found in the Bible either, but we use them to describe the attributes of God. We don't have to see a specific word in the Bible in order for the concept it describes to be true.
Following are other words that the Bible does not use but the concepts are mentioned.
Atheism is the teaching that there is no God. "The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God" (Psalm 14:1).
Divinity which means divine quality or godlike character. Yet, we speak of the godlike quality of the Lord God. See Psalm 139.
Incarnation which means the word (God) who became flesh. Yet, this is definitely taught in the Bible (John 1:1,14).
Monotheism is the teaching that there is only one God (Isaiah 43:10; 44:8).
Rapture is the teaching that the Christians who are alive when Jesus returns will be caught up to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-18).
So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument. Furthermore, to say that if God wanted us to believe in the Trinity He would have clearly taught it in scripture, is also an invalid argument. Something does not have to be clearly formulated in the Bible to be valid. Not all things taught in the Bible are perfectly clear. Take a look at the book of Revelation. It contains many things that are cryptic that must be interpreted after examining all of the Bible. Even then, there are disagreements as to what some things mean. Yet, we know that the truths there are true whether or not we discover them.
Nevertheless, there are scriptures that demonstrate a Trinitarian aspect.
Matt. 28:18, Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
2 Cor. 13:14, The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.
Eph. 4:4-7, There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
The Trinity is really teaching there are three gods......(not so)
By definition the Trinity doctrine teaches that there is only one God. Nevertheless, there are those who assert that the Trinity is really teaching three separate gods. They claim it is either impossible for God to exist in three persons and/or that the Trinity is really borrowed from pagan three-god figures. Many add that a person is by necessity an individual being. Therefore, they conclude, that the Trinity really teaches three gods.
The problem with this criticism is that it denies the very nature of the doctrine. First of all, Trinitarianism by definition denies that there is more than one God. It is clearly monotheistic in spite of what the critics want to claim.
Second, there is a word used to describe a unity of three separate gods. It is the word "triad." A triad is not a trinity. A triad is three separate gods -- as in Mormonism. A Trinity is one God in three persons. A triad is polytheistic. A trinity is monotheistic.
Third, there is no logical reason to deny the possibility that three persons can exist in one God. Critics may not like it, but it is not a logical impossibility. God is infinitely complex and we cannot understand His vastness nor simply claim He can't exist in three persons. Instead, we should look at the Bible to see what it says about God and see if the Trinity is taught. But, that is another subject.
Theologians admit that the word "person" is not the perfect word to use because it carries with it the idea of individuals who are different beings. This is what we are familiar with and this is one of the problems with using the term "person" when describing the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. But this is what we must use when we see that when the Bible speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each are called God, each speak, and each have a will. They exhibit attributes of personhood. In describing what we observe, we are forced to use words that we are familiar with. "Person" is just such a word. But it does not necessitate here that each person is an individual being.
And fourth, trinities are known and accepted by people as observed in nature. By analogy we see that creation itself is Trinitarian. Time is past, present, and future. There are not three times. Each part of the whole of time is by nature time yet there are not three times but one. Likewise, space is height, width, and depth. Matter is solid, liquid, and gas. The Bible says that God's invisible attributes are made known in creation
Rom. 1:20: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made."
When the critics of Trinitarianism say it really teaches three gods, they demonstrate their lack of understanding of the doctrine and they either purposefully or mistakenly confuse it with something it is not. Trinitarianism denies and opposes the idea that there is more than one God. It is by definition, monotheistic.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
Where did God come from?
We can only partially comprehend the notion of God's existence. To do so, we must use human concepts to speak of God: "without beginning or end"; "eternal"; "infinite", etc. The Bible says that He has always existed: " . . . even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God" (Psalm 90:2). And, "Your throne is established from of old; Thou art from everlasting" (Psalm 93:2). Quite simply, God has no beginning and no end. So, where did God come from? He didn't. He always was.
To us, the notion of time is linear. One second follows the next, one minute is after another. We get older, not younger and we cannot repeat the minutes that have passed us by. We have all seen the time lines on charts: early time is on the left and later time is on the right. We see nations, people's lives, and plans mapped out on straight lines from left to right. We see a beginning and an end. But God is "beyond the chart." He has no beginning or end. He simply has always been.
Also, physics has shown that time is a property that is the result of the existence of matter. Time exists when matter exists. Time has even been called the fourth dimension. But God is not matter. In fact, God created matter. He created the universe. So, time began when God created the universe. Before that, God was simply existing and time had no meaning (except conceptually), no relation to Him. Therefore, to ask where God came from is to ask a question that cannot really be applied to God in the first place. Because time has no meaning with God in relation to who He is, eternity is also not something that can be absolutely related to God. God is even beyond eternity.
Eternity is a term that we finite creatures use to express the concept of something that has no end -- and/or no beginning. Since God has no beginning or end, He has no beginning. This is because He is outside of time.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
Is God a Trinity or a Triad?
The doctrine of the Trinity has often caused confusion among Christians. Some people have mistakenly seen the Trinity as a Triad. What is the difference?
The Trinity is the teaching that there exists only one God in all the universe, none before and none after Him (Isaiah 44:6,8) and that God consists of three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Father, who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. Yet, there are not three gods, but one.
In contrast to the trinity, a Triad is three separate gods. Each is a god. Therefore, in the doctrine of the triad, the Father is a god, the Son is a god, and the Holy Spirit is a god. This is not the doctrine of the Trinity and it is not biblical.
Mormonism holds to the doctrine of a Triad, not a Trinity. Even though it claims the word Trinity as its teaching, it does not hold to the doctrine of the Trinity. In Mormonism, the Father has a body of flesh and bones and used to be a man on another world who became a god and came to this world. Jesus is the first-born between god and his goddess wife. Jesus has become a god. And, the Holy Ghost is a god as well. Note: In Mormonism, the Holy Spirit is god's emanating presence by which he is able to be omnipresent. This is not a Trinity. This is a Triad. They are not the same.
The Jehovah's Witness organization very often misrepresents the Trinity doctrine by replacing it with the Triad teaching. They often are taught that Trinitarians believe in three gods. This is not true.
An Illustration
Basically, the universe consists of three elements: Time, Space, and Matter. Each of these is comprised of three 'components.'
Time Past Present Future
Space Height Width Depth
Matter Solid Liquid Gas
As the Trinity doctrine maintains, each of the persons of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) is distinct, yet they are all each, by nature, God.
With time, for example, the past is distinct from the present, which is distinct from the future. Each is simultaneous. Yet, they are not three 'times,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: time
With space, height is distinct from width, which is distinct from depth, which is distinct from height. Yet, they are not three 'spaces,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: space.
With matter, solid is not the same as liquid, which is not the same as gas, which is not the same as solid. Yet, they are not three 'matters,' but one. That is, they all share the same nature: matter.
Note that there are three sets of threes. In other words, there is a trinity of trinities. If we were to look at the universe and notice these qualities within it, is it fair to say that these are the fingerprints of God upon His creation? I think so. Not only is this simply an observation, but it is also a good source for an analogy of the Trinity.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
What is the Trinity?
The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.
The Trinity
God is three persons
Each person is divine
There is only one God.
Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.
Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them.
The word "trinity" is not found in the Bible. But this does not mean that the concept is not taught there. The word "bible" is not found in the Bible either, but we use it anyway. Likewise, the words "omniscience," which means "all knowing," "omnipotence," which means "all powerful," and "omnipresence," which means "present everywhere," are not found in the Bible either. But we use these words to describe the attributes of God. So, to say that the Trinity isn't true because the word isn't in the Bible is an invalid argument.
Is there subordination in the Trinity?
There is, apparently, a subordination within the Trinity in regard to order but not substance or essence. We can see that the Father is first, the Son is second, and the Holy Spirit is third. The Father is not begotten, but the Son is (John 3:16). The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father (John 5:26). The Father sent the Son (1 John 4:10). The Son and the Father send the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). The Father creates (Isaiah 44:24), the Son redeems (Gal. 3:13), and the Holy Spirit sanctifies (Rom. 15:16).
This subordination of order does not mean that each of the members of the Godhead are not equal or divine. For example, we see that the Father sent the Son. But this does not mean that the Son is not equal to the Father in essence and divine nature. A wife is to be subject to her husband but this does not negate her humanity, essence, or equality. By further analogy, a king and his servant both share human nature. Yet, the king sends the servant to do his will. Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:38). Does this mean that the one sent must, therefore, be of different nature than the one who sent him? Of course not.
Critics of the Trinity will see this subordination as proof that the Trinity is false. They reason that if Jesus were truly God, then He would be completely equal to God the Father in all areas and would not, therefore, be subordinate to the Father in any way. But this objection is not logical. If we look at the analogy of the king and in the servant we certainly would not say that the servant was not human because he was sent. Being sent does not negate sameness in essence. Therefore, the fact that the Son is sent does not mean that He is not divine any more than when my wife sends me to get bread, I am not human.
Is this confusing?
Another important point about the Trinity is that it can be a difficult concept to grasp. But this does not necessitate an argument against its validity. On the contrary, the fact that it is difficult is an argument for its truth. The Bible is the self revelation of an infinite God. Therefore, we are bound to encounter concepts which are difficult to understand -- especially when dealing with an incomprehensible God who exists in all places at all times. So, when we view descriptions and attributes of God manifested in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, we discover that a completely comprehensible and understandable explanation of God's essence and nature is not possible. What we have, however, done is derive from the Scripture the truths that we can grasp and combine them into the doctrine we call The Trinity. The Trinity is, to a large extent, a mystery. After all, we are dealing with God Himself.
It is the way of the cults to reduce biblical truth to make God comprehensible and understandable by their minds. To this end, they subject God's word to their own reasoning and end in error. The following verses are often used to demonstrate that in the doctrine of the Trinity is indeed biblical.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
Favor Minded ....Thank you sooooo much...the text that you posted explains the Trinity so well...just the way I understood it and believe in...
I remember when I first accepted Jesus in my heart as my Saviour, I couldn't quite understand yet what the Trinity was but once I did learn, it all came so easy to understand the ''He'' and the ''Him'' when I read the Scriptures...
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
|
posted
quote:
Brotherbrown writes - you poor misguided soul. The Word is the means by which God created everything. He said" Let there be" and it was so. The only Faithful and True Witness is Jesus. Jesus the first born of all creation.
Brotherbrown, You Poor Misguided Soul
There is a growing body of believers who are good, upstanding, well- motivated people. It might well be asked, "If they are Christians and want to do what's right, how can they go so far wrong in their doctrine?"
The answer, of course, is that even the best motivated of hearts can stumble when the head leads it down an errant path.
I believe their motivation is right, while their performance is in error. Should we chance divisiveness by discussing the doctrinal misconceptions they promote?
This is not a simple matter of "to each his own." The Word of God is given to us to be our staff against the world, our strength, and our guide to proper doctrine. The Word tells us to rightly divide the Word (II Timothy 3:16).
God gave us His Word so we could, through study and application, develop sound doctrine. Admittedly, all fall short of complete knowledge of God's intent for us in this day.
I believe God deliberately left some fine points obscured so we would have to study His Word as an ongoing and perpetual component of our Christian life.
I do feel, however, that there is a difference between freedom to search out God's meaning from His Word, and license to promote doctrines which are barely suggested within the Word.
The "New Issue" or "Jesus Only" or "No Trinity" doctrines erupted within the Pentecostal movement about 1914.
While it started as a friendly debate over the question of the correct method for water baptism, it quickly developed into a fierce controversy over the nature of the Godhead. The argument in those early days was basically over the effort to reconcile the words of the Lord in Matthew 28:19 and Peter's words in Acts 2:38. Suddenly the thing exploded.
Those who practiced baptism in the name of Jesus Christ (Jesus Only) claimed a special revelation from the Lord which would result in the correct manner of water baptism. And, you might ask, what was this tremendous, tradition-defying revelation?
In effect it was this: Peter introduced the new baptismal method at Pentecost because, supposedly, the Holy Ghost had revealed unto him that the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ.
In other words, their "revelation" was that there is only one person in the Godhead and that is Jesus Christ. They also vehemently opposed the doctrine of the Trinity, claiming it was of human origin.
The argument became more heated, the controversy more explosive, and the split grew wider.
Three Gods or just one?
We teach there is one God manifest in three persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Jesus Only people teach that Christ is the Father, He is the Son and He is the Holy Ghost. Hence the name, Jesus Only. I believe we can provide proper evidence from the Word of God that this is not the case and that the teaching advanced by these people is erroneous and does not accord proper due and honor to the Godhead.
The Scripture does state there is one God. But the word "one" relates to unity as well as number. I John 5:7 clearly means one in unity, as does St. John 17:11-21. And yet there are three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The three are spoken of as one in number and yet treated individually in Scripture. There is one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 8:6; Ehpesians 4:3-6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality. The Father is called God (I Corinthians 8:6), the Son is called God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3- 4). Individually, each is called God; collectively, they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word "God" can be used either in the singular or in the plural, like sheep.
Everything that could pertain to God collectively could also apply equally to each member of the Godhead as individuals. However, there are some particulars which relate to each individual person of the deity as to position, office, and work that could not be attributed to either of the other members of the Godhead. For instance, the Father is the head of Christ (I Corinthians 11:3). The Son is the only begotten of the Father (II John 1:3). The Holy Ghost proceeds from both the Father and the Son (John 14:16; Acts 2:3-4).
The names of God prove plurality of persons. The Hebrew word Elohim, translated "God" in Genesis 1:1 and also in more than 2,700 other places in the Old Testament, is a uniplural noun which means "more than one." Had the sacred writer been led to use the singular El, then there would have been no indication of a divine plurality. But in this initial reference to God, he was led of the Holy Ghost to pen the Word Elohim (Genesis 1:1).
Also when one considers that the word Elohim is used about ten to one over the word El, we would have to conclude that this preference for the plural over the singular indicates a definite sign of plurality in the Godhead.
Genesis 3:22, where it says, "the man has become as one of us," proves plurality of persons by the use of the pronoun "us." Two Lords are mentioned in Genesis 19:24--one on earth and one in heaven. Two Lords sit side by side in Psalms 110:1-5, in Matthew 22:44, and in Acts 2:33-34, 36. Two and three Persons are mentioned in the introductions to many New Testament books: Romans, James, I Corinthians, I Peter, to name a few.
Jesus is NOT the father -
Only one Scripture in the Word of God states that Jesus is the Father. This is found in Isaiah, chapter 9, and it is a Hebrew idiom concerning the terminology of the Jews. And we know from the Word of God that while Jesus was on earth the Father was in heaven (Matthew 5:16-48). We also know (from Scripture) that Christ now sits at the right hand of the Father.
Jesus said He would confess men before His Father which was in heaven, proving He (Jesus) is not Himself the Father (Matthew 10:32; Revelation 3:5). Jesus always prayed to the Father as a separate person (Matthew 11:25). Both Jesus and Satan refer to God apart from Jesus (Matthew 4:6-10). Jesus was the only begotten Son of the Father.
Hence, Jesus could not be the Father, nor could He beget Himself (John 1:14). Over 80 times in the Word f God Jesus affirmed that He was not the Father, nor was He the only person in the Godhead.
Admittedly, we do not understand everything about the Trinity. However, it does become somewhat less confusing and mysterious if we don't try to force two or more separate Persons into becoming only one Person, simply because we choose not to recognize that the true meaning of the word "one" actually refers to unity.
So what we have is, only one Scripture (easily explained) in the Old Testament stating that Jesus is the Father, and so very, very many confirming that He is not the Father.
The Holy Spirit IS NOT Jesus or the Father
The Holy Spirit is another and He is from both the Father and the Son (John 5:32). So that the Holy Spirit could come, it was necessary that Jesus go away (John 16:5-15). Even then, though, He could not be sent from God until Christ was glorified. But at that time He would be sent from both the Father and the Son (John 7:37-39). The Holy Spirit was sent from the Father to endue Jesus with power.
This clearly requires three persons--the One who sent Him, and the One being sent, and the One who received Him!
A clear distinction is made between the Son who prays, the Father to whom He prays, and the Holy Spirit for whom (which) He prays (John 14:16).
The descent of the Holy Spirit acknowledged the arrival of Jesus in heaven to sit at the right hand of God, thus proving three separate and distinct persons (Acts 2:33-34; John 7:39).
So, Jesus is God; the Holy Ghost is God; the Father is God. But Jesus is not the Holy Spirit; Jesus is not the Father. And neither is the Father the Lord Jesus Christ; nor is the Father the Holy Spirit.
The scriptural passages which provide the basis for the Trinitarian doctrine cannot be reconciled to the Jesus Only position without totally disregarding the meaning of language and without totally ignoring many contrary Scriptures.
--------------------
Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
quote:
Please dont call Jesus a liar.
What are you talking about!?!?!...I am NOT calling Jesus a liar!!!...those are your own words, not mine... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Oh well...believe what you want, whatever tickles you... ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ![[wiggle7]](graemlins/wiggle7.gif) ![[rapture]](graemlins/rapture.gif)
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
Please dont call Jesus a liar.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
IP: Logged |
|
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by lonlesol:
quote:
GOD EVEN CREATED JESUS
No, BrotherBrown...Even I, that doesn't know much yet, knows this...Take away one or another of the three, and you have created a god for yourself...It is clear that God the Father did not create Jesus...Jesus was there from the beginning...
The Word Became Flesh (New International Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
you poor misguided soul. The Word is the means by which God created everything. He said" Let there be" and it was so. The only Faithful and True Witness is Jesus. Jesus the first born of all creation.
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
(NKJ)
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)
IP: Logged |
|
|
lonlesol
Advanced Member
Member # 4511
|
posted
quote:
GOD EVEN CREATED JESUS
No, BrotherBrown...Even I, that doesn't know much yet, knows this...Take away one or another of the three, and you have created a god for yourself...It is clear that God the Father did not create Jesus...Jesus was there from the beginning...
The Word Became Flesh (New International Version)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
Posts: 478 | From: Quebec | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
|
posted
Who created the heavens and the earth?
A. God
1. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His
handiwork.
3. Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of
them by the breath of His mouth.
B. Jesus
1. John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and
without Him nothing was made that was made.
2. Colossians 1:13-17 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us
into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His
blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over
all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All
things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him
all things consist.
3. Hebrews 1:3-10 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His
person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself
purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so
much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name
than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have
begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But
when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God
worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His
ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and
ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved
righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With
the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning
laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Repent of your error BrotherBrown, and stop seeking to lead others astray.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
It amazes me how you think yourself greater than all the other worms.
LOL
Job.25
[6] How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?
Repent while the day is yet called day.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
"xxx God the Father done all the creating. God the Father sent His Son Jesus to pay for our sins. And to be an example of how to worship God the Father in the right Spirit. God created Jesus first before anything else. Then God had someone to love. God had someone to give to, but Jesus didnt have anyone that He could give to. So God created everything else through Jesus or for Jesus. The heavens and the earth were created for Jesus. Now to purchase them Jesus had to die on the cross. We all have to prove ourselves to God. Jesus proved Himself, and made the way that we can prove ourselves."
NOT BIBLICAL......
It amazes me how some of you can make such claims with absolutey no evidence and expect others to abide by your word. And go against the Word of God. God the Father created everything.
Eph 3:9
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;
(NKJ)
Col 1:12-16
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.
13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
(NKJ)
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
"xxx God the Father done all the creating. God the Father sent His Son Jesus to pay for our sins. And to be an example of how to worship God the Father in the right Spirit. God created Jesus first before anything else. Then God had someone to love. God had someone to give to, but Jesus didnt have anyone that He could give to. So God created everything else through Jesus or for Jesus. The heavens and the earth were created for Jesus. Now to purchase them Jesus had to die on the cross. We all have to prove ourselves to God. Jesus proved Himself, and made the way that we can prove ourselves."
NOT BIBLICAL......
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Brotherbrown
unregistered
|
posted
GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR
2 Cor 5:18
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God(Father) commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator(Father).
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ(Jesus), the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ(Jesus) is God(Father).
Eph 2:10
10 For we are His(Father) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God(Father) prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 3:8-11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God(Father) who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God(Father) might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He(Father) accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Col 1:13-20
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His(Father) love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
17 And He(Father) is before all things, and in Him(Father) all things consist.
18 And He(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He(Jesus) may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him(Jesus) all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him(Father) to reconcile all things to Himself(Father), by Him(Jesus), whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His(Jesus) cross.
Rev 4:11
11 "You are worthy, O Lord(Father), to receive glory and honor and power; for You(Father) created all things, and by Your(Father) will they exist and were created."
Mark 10:6
6 "But from the beginning of the creation, God(Father) 'made them male and female.'
Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His(Father) invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His(Father) eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
John 5:37-40
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me(Jesus), has testified of Me(Jesus). You have neither heard His(Father) voice at any time, nor seen His (Father) form.
38 "But you do not have His(Father) word abiding in you, because whom He(Father) sent, Him(Jesus) you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me(Jesus).
40 "But you are not willing to come to Me(Jesus) that you may have life.
Rom 11:32-36
32 For God(Father)has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God(Father)! How unsearchable are His(Father) judgments and His(Father) ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him(Father) and through Him(Jesus) and to Him(Father) are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
(NKJ)
THROUGH CHRIST---REASON FOR WAS CHRIST
xxxThe deffinition of through- is reason for. So God created everything through or for the reason of Jesus. God created everything for Jesus sake.
Heb 1:1-6
1 God(Father), who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His(Father) Son(Jesus), whom He(Father) has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He(Father) made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His(Father) glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His(Father) power, when He(Jesus) had by Himself(Jesus) purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty(Father) on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He(Jesus) has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He(Father) ever say: "You(Jesus) are My(Father) Son(Jesus), today I(Father) have begotten You(Jesus)"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He(Jesus) shall be to Me(Father) a Son"?
6 But when He(Father) again brings the firstborn(Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says: "Let all the angels of God(Father) worship Him(Jesus)."
2 Cor 3:4
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God(Father).
Gal 4:7
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God(Father) through Christ(Jesus).
Phil 4:7
7 and the peace of God(Father), which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Phil 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God(Father) through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:21
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God(Father) was in Christ(Jesus) reconciling the world to Himself(Father), not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
xxx God the Father done all the creating. God the Father sent His Son Jesus to pay for our sins. And to be an example of how to worship God the Father in the right Spirit. God created Jesus first before anything else. Then God had someone to love. God had someone to give to, but Jesus didnt have anyone that He could give to. So God created everything else through Jesus or for Jesus. The heavens and the earth were created for Jesus. Now to purchase them Jesus had to die on the cross. We all have to prove ourselves to God. Jesus proved Himself, and made the way that we can prove ourselves.
GOD EVEN CREATED JESUS
John 17:5
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me(Jesus) together with Yourself(Father), with the glory which I(Jesus) had with You(Father) before the world was.
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
(NKJ)
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
