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Topic: The fear of the Lord is the beginning ....
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Eden,
Believing as used in scripture, is a action word as used concerning Salvation.
Example….
I can say, "that is a good strong chair, I believe it will hold me" but this is not believing as the Scripture speaks of believing…..
To fulfill the scripture definition of believing I must actually sit in the chair, then and only then do I truly believe.
quote:
Is that a sudden one-time recognition that Jesus must have been God or Lord or is this submission of one's will an ongoing event which may or may not eventually qualify someone, if they cross some mysterious threshold, to qualify for salvation, or how does that work?
It is not enough to start the race, you must finish the race.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
There is instant pudding , instant oat meal, instant rice, but there is no such thing as instant Salvation.
Salvation through Yeshua’s Blood is a life time, it may be as short as the thief next to Yeshua on the cross or as long as the Apostle Paul, who Satan tried many times to kill and couldn’t till it was his time.
Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed , not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Eph 6:5 Servants, be obedient to them that are [your] masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;
2Cr 7:15 And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.
Read those 3 verses , meditate on them. Notice the word obedience, obedient, obeyed …
The true New Testament Church knows nothing of a Gospel of Salvation without obedience, submitting of the will of man to the will of Yahweh.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives:
from bec. to J4Jesus:
"re is only one way any person will ever get to heaven and that is by submitting their will to the will of Yahweh through the Blood of Yeshua."
from Eden:
Hmmm, I thought that believing that Jesus died on the cross for me and rose again on the third day was what got me that saving free grace by His mercy?
Romans 5:9 (NJKV)
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
Romans 5:10 (NJKV)
For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Romans 10:9-11 (NJKV)
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.
from becauseHElives to J4Jesus:
"re is only one way any person will ever get to heaven and that is by submitting their will to the will of Yahweh through the Blood of Yeshua."
What role, if any, does this "submitting their will to the will of Yahweh" play in terms of salvation? By confessing that Jesus is Lord?
Is that "submission of the will" a one-time event in the sense that one recognizes that whoever can raise from the dead must also be God for no man can raise from the dead.
Is that a sudeen one-time recognition that Jesus must have been God or Lord or is this submission of one's will an ongoing event which may or may not eventually qualify someone, if they cross some mysterious threshold, to qualify for salvation, or how does that work?
Be blessed.
Eden
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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J4Jesus
quote:
how is that person ever suppose to get into Heaven?,
There is only one way any person will ever get to heaven and that is by submitting their will to the will of Yahweh through the Blood of Yeshua.
Don't be deceived praying a prayer of forgiveness in Yeshua's / Jesus name without a change of heart is not Salvation!
Yeshua is not Savour of what He is not Lord of.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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J4Jesus
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question for Eden, just wondering, how old are you? you seem alot like me.
And to the knowledgeable people:
lets say there's this born again person who was Born Again but it happened in the most dull or fleshy way so that there was ALMOST no Spiritual change in the first place. This person had no idea they were saved until a really long time later.
like this person can't seem to Fathom all those things like "make your calling and election sure" and "hate sin and just totaly submit to God".
how is that person ever suppose to get into Heaven?
does God make certain christians to fall away? He makes them way more ignorant than others?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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Hi Eden: I pray you dont think that I was offended. I wasnt. Your comment, it made me chuckle because an old friend that used to be on here and is no more used to tease me about my long posts. I miss him, so your little comment was kinds cool for me.
Sometimes my posts are long. (ok Most of the time ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) .) Sometimes I have a lot to say. Sometimes I use a lot of scripture to support what I say and say very little myself. I have been here going on 5 years and never felt that I had any problem with my posts being read. I try to use white space well, and keep my paragraphs short so that it is easy on the eyes, but I kinda feel that if one is interested they will read; if the are not they wont. If you feel that my posts are too long, then just skip them I wont be offended.
God Bless & Keep you!
Linda- aka HFHS
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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from helpforhomeschoolers to Eden:
Is that a kind way of telling me to shut up?
from Eden to helpfor:
No, but that seems to be a bit of an over-the-top reaction to me saying that your posts are very long, by which I only meant that life being what it is, long posts usually inhibit the reading thereof, and presumably your first intent as a Christian would be to get your post read, if perhaps you might reach someone with it.
As for the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom, once someone starts to realize that the Lord is really alive and there and that there is a resurrection for all, that person will at some point become very afraid of the coming of the Lord and of a post-death meeting with the Lord.
Then will have come to pass the scripture:
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom"
Be blessed.
Eden
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Is that a kind way of telling me to shut up?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eden
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Allow me to tell you, helpforhomeschoolers, if my salvation depended on your long story that you posted and expounded in your very last post, I would not never have been saved.
Be blessed.
Eden
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Dale: Let me for the sake of others who do not know us preface this post with this... I absolutely agree with Dale that "The assumptions of Once Saved Always Saved teaching will damn many to an eternal hell…."
I believe that the born again man is eternally secure and in fact has begun life as a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven in this life. But I do not believe the assumptions of OSAS that so many teach in error which amount to making grace to be cheap. I stand in complete agreement with my Brother Dale, on issues of our need to be HOLY as HE is Holy, to present our bodies daily as living sacrifice, to OBEY HIS commands; and on and on. In fact there is probably nothing that I disagree with Dale on except that you can be born again and then subsequently be damned to hell.
This last post is such a good point of discussion on this that I wanted to comment, and yet I do not want to take away from the message Dale Has which is a message of repentance from Sin and a call to the church to be HOlY!
The church buildings today are full of people who have expereinced false conversion and are as damned to hell as any pagan heathen idol worshipper in the remote village of India or some other land where polytheism exists.
I echo the words of Peter:
2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Now, having said that let me get to the thing I wanted to comment on in this post.
ALIVE AGAIN! Does this scripture contradict MacArthur's belief that we who are born again are eternally secure?
Not if we let scripture interpret scripture.
As Dale has pointed out the parable of the prodigal son says that the son was dead and is ALIVE AGAIN!!
So, we must ask when did he die?
Paul explains...
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Paul says there was a time before when he was alive without the Law. This is important, because the Law brings condemnation for sin.
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Paul says I was alive without the Law once.
Then paul says something happened...
"when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
Paul was alive once, and he died when the commandment came and sin revived.
But now, Paul is alive again. And dead to sin.
1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Lets look at the parable:
11 ¶ And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
(Here we see the prodigal son leaves the Father's house and HIS authority and goes out and sins. When we are young... we are under the authority of our parents and are given grace by GOD as innocents until we come to the age of accountibility where we know what sin is... Paul says in Romans ..."the commandment came.")
13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
here in verse 13 we see his sin
14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Below in verse 18 we see repentance and returning to the authority of the Father.. confession of sin
18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Look here at what God does.. He clothes him with a robe.. the BEST ROBE.. the righteousness of Christ, whom we must put on to be ALVIE AGAIN.... a ring... the signant seal of the Holy Spirit - the seal of the covenant document...shoes the preparation of the Gospel
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
Alive without the Law- dead when the commandedment came and sin revived - now Alive again through Christ.
1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
Jesus said that he came ONLY to the Lost Sheep of Israel, and this whole section in Luke shows Jesus speaking prophetically of what is going to happen.
Before Jesus died, was buried and rose again, there were no children of God except those who were the circum cision. It is important when we study the scripture to understand the context.
In this parable Jesus shows what is going to happen with the lost sheep of Irael to whom he has come and to their brothers that see this happen.
This parable shows Israel that remained true to the Torah witnessing the salvation of lost sheep who went into the world and became joined with the citizen of the world come to repentance and turn back to GOD... while they are still afar off... God goes out to meet them and embraces them, they confess their sin, they repent, they become born again, there is a party for them, and this is hard to understand for those who remained all along faithful to the Father, but the Father replies to them You are mine and all that I have is yours, but this is my son who was dead and is not alive again. (note what God says about the brother that stayed at home... Luke 15:31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
This is Judah's stick being united in Christ with Joseph's stick that is in the hand of Ephrahim.
This is Jeramiah, or Ezekiel or Issaiah or a John the Baptist watching the end time salvation of the lost sheep of Israel or the grafting back in of braches that were cut off that the church might be grafted in among them.
This is not the Gentile Church for we were without GOD and without hope strangers to the Common wealth of Israel and the promises and we are sons by adoption. We call HIM abba father for we are adopted and taken out of the wild olive and grafted into the cultivated. We were not HIS people. There was no inheritance to give to us for us to squander. Christ is our inheritiance. If we squander Christ there is no repentance of that!
The prodigal son after he is clothed with the BEST ROBE, and given the signant ring, and shoes for HIS feet is still a SON. Not a bride.. not the Body of Christ.
If this parable were written to give the meaning that I who am a born again child of God can become lost in the sense of losing my salvation and then repent and be saved again it would contradict this scripture...
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This parable speaks of a son by birth.. natural seed of Abraham who was alive like Paul once without the Law and thus without the condemnation of the law for sin, who came into the time that he could receive his inheritance, part of which is the Torah and he died at that time because sin revived, and he went his way, and eventually repented and was born again and reconcilled to the Father.
If we believe the Bible and the bible says that the born again cannot and does not sin then we cannot believe that the prodigal son was once born again, lost his salvation and then returned to be born again again.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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Hello Eden
The assumptions of Once Saved Always Saved teaching will damn many to an eternal hell….
Though there are many teachings of the Lord Jesus that we could focus in upon to answer this question, perhaps His teaching known as The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32) would be the best of all regarding this controversy. This teaching demonstratively shows the full extent of sin's destructive power in the life of a son of God, the key roles that free will and human responsibility have, the limited protective power offered by the believer's "seal," as taught by Christ Himself and much more. Let's examine it closely.
The teaching starts by focusing in on the younger of the two sons of the father, who asked for and received his share of the estate. Soon afterward, he departed from the father's presence for a distant country of "wild living" (v.13). There he squandered his wealth with prostitutes (v.30). After he spent everything he had there was a severe famine in that country, during which time he personally longed to eat the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything! He then came to his senses, returned to the father repentfully and found complete forgiveness and restoration. Beyond this, the father with no hesitation initiated the "kill the fattened calf" celebration for his homecoming.
Verses 24 and 32 are essential to this parable, controversy and study. Both of these Scriptures, declared by the father, reveal the spiritual condition of the prodigal both BEFORE and AFTER the time of his "wild living." Verse 24 spoken to his servants says, "For this son of mine was dead and is ALIVE AGAIN; he was lost and is found," while verse 32, spoken to the older son says, "... this brother of yours was dead and is ALIVE AGAIN; he was lost and is found." The important point the father was emphasizing was the complete reversal of the prodigal's spiritual condition, now that he repented. He went from "DEAD" to "ALIVE AGAIN" which is equated in the same sentence as going from "LOST" to "FOUND." Hence, there is great reason to rejoice over such a sinner that repents, as already mentioned two separate times in this same chapter in the parables of the Lost Sheep and Lost Coin.
Perhaps the words "ALIVE AGAIN" are most revealing. The Greek word from which "ALIVE AGAIN" comes is found five times in the New Testament -- in these two verses just cited, Rom. 7:9; 14:9 and Rev. 20:5. It means LIVE AGAIN or REVIVE. This is easily seen in Rom. 14:9, "... Christ died and returned to life ...." Here it is stated that the Lord's physical condition went from LIFE to DEATH [on the cross] to LIFE AGAIN [when He arose from the grave]. Similarly, the prodigal's spiritual condition went from LIFE to DEATH [when with the prostitutes] to LIFE AGAIN [when he returned to the father's presence]. Regarding this type of action and the believer's security, one strain of eternal security is perhaps best exemplified by what John MacArthur wrote:
"No matter how convincing a person's testimony might seem, once he becomes apostate he has demonstrated irrefutably that he was never really saved" [John F. MacArthur, Jr., The Gospel According to Jesus (Zondervan Publishing, Grand Rapids, MI, 1989), p.98].
The Lord Jesus, in contrast to MacArthur and this position, clearly taught such can occur, by this parable! Also request our tract entitled, He Was Never Really Saved To Begin With for other arguments.
Furthermore, there are many in our hour that unfortunately teach and sincerely believe that the most one could ever lose through sin after initial salvation is their joy of salvation, spiritual rewards and/or position in the kingdom. Jesus, however, very clearly taught otherwise! The Lord taught the prodigal's spiritual condition degenerated to "DEAD," the same as for everyone before initial salvation (Eph. 2:1). Paul stated likewise, after initial salvation, "If you live according to the sinful nature you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body you will live" (Rom. 8:13). This is what happened to the prodigal, that is, he died spiritually because he chose, through his own free will, to "live according to the sinful nature."
Luke 15:13 states "wild living" characterized his behavior when spiritually "DEAD" and "LOST" in his unconfessed and unrepented sins. The word for "wild living" comes from the Greek word meaning EXCESS, as found in Eph. 5:18: "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit" (KJV). Hence, the prodigal's behavior, as implied by Lk. 15:13, included DRUNKENNESS and other excesses that go with that kind of sinful lifestyle. This would be a safe assumption anyway, especially since he spent his money with prostitutes! Therefore, among other grievous sins, the prodigal's sins were SEXUAL IMMORALITY and DRUNKENNESS -- two rampant spiritual killers in our day too! Paul wrote about these and other similar sins in Gal. 5:19-21 and 1 Cor. 6:9,10. This former passage, written to Christians in WARNING form, reads: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I WARN YOU, as I did before, that those who live like this will NOT inherit the kingdom of God."
Robert B. Thieme, another influential eternal security teacher of our day, likens the prodigal son to a carnal Christian whom he describes as follows:
"The behavior pattern of a carnal Christian cannot be distinguished from that of an unbeliever (1 Cor. 3:3). As far as God's Word is concerned, you may act like an unbeliever; but if you have believed in Christ, you are still a believer -- a believer in status quo carnality -- out of fellowship. This principle is important in understanding the prodigal. A BELIEVER OUT OF FELLOWSHIP ACTS LIKE AN UNBELIEVER" [emphasis his] [R. B. Thieme, Jr., The Prodigal Son, Houston, TX, 1974, p.7].
WHAT A VENOMOUS LIE THIS IS! Please know the following about carnal Christians as mentioned by Paul: (1) 1 Cor. 3:3 is very clear about their sins being "jealousy" and "quarreling" and nothing as severe as the Prodigal's were. Paul wrote: "You are still worldly. For since there is JEALOUSY and QUARRELING among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men?" Furthermore, in the next two verses we see why they were acting like this, that is, some at Corinth apparently favored one Christian leader over another, namely Paul over Apollos and vice versa! (2) In 1 Cor. 6:11, we read,
"And that is what some of you WERE. But you WERE washed, you WERE sanctified, you WERE justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Please note: those "carnal" Christians were NOT drunkards any more or sexually immoral any more, etc., as clearly indicated by the word "WERE" in this verse referring back to verses 9 and 10! This again shows an all important difference between what the eternal security teachers are saying and what God says, as recorded in the Bible. (3) To believe the eternal security teachers regarding carnal Christianity and the behavior of such people would also render meaningless verses such as 1 Jn. 3:10: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." Please note that John's test to know a child of God from a child of the devil was a present-tense behavioral one and not just a testimony of a past conversion experience! See also 1 Jn. 2:3,4.
It is my contention that as water is to fire, so the teaching of eternal security is to the fear of God, as evident by eternal security teachings such as these.
Please note: unlike what some of the eternal security teachers would say, based on a faulty interpretation of Col. 2:13, the prodigal's future sins were NOT automatically forgiven, because if they were, it would have been impossible for them to bring about his "DEAD" and "LOST" spiritual condition! "He forgave us all our sins" (Col. 2:13), can only refer to "all" of our PAST sins getting forgiven at the point of initial salvation. If not, there would be no need to confess sins committed after salvation for forgiveness, as shown in 1 Jn. 1:9. In addition, many other Scriptures would be meaningless if all our future sins were automatically forgiven also at the point of initial salvation! In contrast to Scripture and reason, another eternal security teacher (June Hunt) said,
June: "Well, technically, Carl, a person who has truly entered into a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, let me ask you this, how many of their sins were forgiven once they entered into that relationship with Him?"
Carl: "Well, I believe all of mine have been."
June: "Yes, because that's what Scripture teaches."
Carl: "Past, present and future."
June: "And future. So the issue is, all of our sins are already forgiven" [June Hunt, tape: "Suicide or Survival," #9114] (emphasis ours).
While some heavily rely upon Jesus' promise stated in Jn. 10:28,29, that is, that no one will "snatch" his sheep from His hand or the Father's hand, please note that this doesn't exclude the apparent possibility of a "sheep" walking off due to his own personal free will to a lifestyle that will result in spiritual death, as exemplified by the prodigal son! No one plucked the prodigal out of the Father's hand, but the Father let him walk away! Also, the wonderful promise of John 10:28,29 holds true ONLY for those who "follow" [continuous tense in the Greek] Jesus (v. 27)!
Also, many read into the believer's "seal," which Paul wrote of, as a spiritual protection that is an assurance that will, most definitely, mean our future entrance into the kingdom no matter what. However, Jesus' teaching on the prodigal son also refutes this faulty interpretation, for that "seal" didn't prevent the prodigal's "dead" and "lost" condition from coming about! The same can be emphatically stated from James 4:4b regarding anyone who would "choose to be a friend of the world" and consequently become an "enemy of God." Enemies of God will be consumed by raging fire (Heb. 10:27)! This too shows the "seal" won't prevent their spiritual death.
Furthermore, in light of Heb. 13:5 which states that God will never leave or forsake us, please note the prodigal left and forsook the father and the father let him walk off! Besides, Heb. 13:5,8 is a quote from Deut. 31:6,8, which shows by Deut. 31:17 that God will "forsake" us because of sin! [If you have a copy of our book refuting the sinister teaching of eternal security, please refer to pages 74 and 75 for a full explanation.]
Many eternal security proponents try to weaken such truths as these and others taught in the parables by saying things like: Parables weren't given for doctrine or parables teach only one truth and not several! Regarding the latter, Charles Stanley wrote in his monthly magazine:
"Jesus told the story of the prodigal son for one reason, to portray God's unconditional love. (Luke 15:11-32)" [In Touch, September 1994, p.7.]
Both of these objections are categorically false! Parables were taught by Christ as a means of revealing the secrets of the kingdom to believers and concealing the same secrets from the unbelievers (Matt. 13:10-13). Since doctrine is one and the same as teachings, obviously parables are for doctrine. For example, the parable of the Pharisee and Tax Collector (Lk. 18:9-14) clearly teaches the doctrine of INSTANT JUSTIFICATION for all, who like that tax collector, sincerely and humbly pray directly to God asking for forgiveness. Furthermore, a second basic truth is clearly taught in the same parable -- namely, one must first be aware of his own personal need of forgiveness before he will receive it. The self-righteous pharisee lacked this insight and went home unjustified and unforgiven! Hence, both objections raised by eternal security proponents, against the use of parables, are clearly refuted here!
Finally regarding the prodigal son, let us all rejoice that the father QUICKLY and JOYFULLY took him back after he repented. In other words, we know from this that a person can get saved MORE THAN ONCE based on this teaching and a corroborating one by Paul, the true grace teacher, in Rom. 11:19-23: "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.' Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. DO NOT BE ARROGANT, BUT BE AFRAID. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in AGAIN." [This passage from Rom. 11 seems to be tailor-made and customized for this controversy over the believer's security. Clearly, it causes much trouble for the eternal security proponent, that is, if he even knows it exists!]
Other passages given by Jesus which refute eternal security are: Matt. 6:14,15; 10:22,33; 24:13; 25:26-30; Lk. 8:13; 12:45,46; Jn. 15:6; Rev. 2:10,11,26; 3:15,16.
COME ON HOME MODERN-DAY PRODIGALS. God will likewise accept and rejoice over YOU! Don't think you have sinned too much to return. The prodigal Jesus taught about, likewise, knew ONLY "wild living" for an undesignated period of time -- perhaps many years. God wants you home in his presence, too -- "alive again" and no longer "lost." Come while you still can.
http://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesus-es.htm
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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from becauseHElives:
bec: there is no need fearing a thunderstorm, unless there is some unconfessed sin in your life,
bec: if a bolt of lightning hit you, the worst it could do is put you in the presents of Yeshua
Eden: I was interested in the idea that some unconfessed sin in his life would be reason for him to fear the allegorical thunderstorm, namely the coming of the Lord, as
Eden: I was more thinking that unconfessed sin hinders our communication with the Lord but is it true that unconfessed new sin (assuming that the person is bornagain Christian who several years ago repented and is now a bornagain Christian).
Eden: Does "unless there is unconfessed sin in your life" undo the salvation that the person has? I did not think so.
Eden: Even if there were some unconfessed sin in our lives (though we should confess and agree with the Lord that we are sinners and especially say to the Lord, that that was sin that just happened), yet I find it hard to believe that someone would have to fear the allegorical thunderstorm of being ushered into the presence of the Lord even if he has some unconfessed sin on the day he dies?
Be blessed.
Eden
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becauseHElives
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there is no need fearing a thunderstorm, unless there is some unconfessed sin in your life,
if a bolt of lightning hit you, the worst it could do is put you in the presents of Yeshua
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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J4Jesus
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yea Thunderstorms really really really bother me
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Itty-Bitty Girl
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Excellent article, Dale. This is nice to read. Interesting stuff, a lot of things here catch my eye, makes me think.
![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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becauseHElives
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The Wrath of Yahweh
The “wrath of God” sounds like a contradiction of terms to my modern ears. Is God not “Yahweh, Yahweh, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin?” But the verse continues, “Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation” (Exodus 34:6-7).
. . . God cares enough for humankind to be wrathful . . .
Throughout the Old Testament, and even in the New Testament, anger is attributed to God. Is this just a primitive understanding of the nature of Yahweh? Has our faith developed so that the wrath of God is no longer a reality; that his love encompasses all? The dearth of literature on this subject would suggest that much contemporary Christian scholarship assumes this to be the case.
HEBREW LANGUAGE OF WRATH
A study of the Biblical language for anger or wrath reveals the frequency of its appearance in the Old Testament with reference to God. It is clear that the wrath of Yahweh was a common conception of one of the ways in which Yahweh dealt {56} with humankind. His wrath is provoked and turned away. It kindles and burns hot. It is slow to come but fierce and fearful. In addition to the terms used for wrath, God’s wrath is often suggested through expressions and metaphors from the vocabulary of flood, famine, conflagration, cursing, devouring, reaping, demolishing, slaughtering, refining, and military siege and battle (Dahlberg 904).
ISRAELITE CONCEPTIONS OF THE WRATH OF YAHWEH
How does the Old Testament speak of the wrath of Yahweh? Although there has been little contemporary research on the wrath of Yahweh, the Old Testament evidence of it is multitudinous. Did the Israelites’ understanding change and develop as their experience of Yahweh grew? I feel that there is development in their understanding. But his wrath does not ultimately become an impersonal force. There is a continuing personal aspect of the wrath of Yahweh throughout the Old Testament. Four aspects of this can be traced.
The Unpredictable
Anthony Hanson argues that the earliest conception of Yahweh’s wrath contained an unpredictable element. He suggests that the oldest passages of the Old Testament in which the wrath of God is expressed are 2 Samuel 6:7-8, where Uzzah is killed for touching the ark, and 2 Samuel 24:1, where God in anger moved David to number Israel and Judah. Here divine wrath does not seem to be connected to either justice or morality (Hanson 1-3). Other references which relate this fearful and incomprehensible nature of God’s anger are Exodus 19:22 and Numbers 22:22.
Wrath appears here as the direct action of Yahweh against those who have offended him. More conservative scholars do see, even in these passages, an ethical basis for God’s anger (Brouse 91).
The Predictable
Throughout most of the Old Testament, the wrath of Yahweh seems to be placed within the context of his covenant with Israel. An example of this is Deuteronomy 32 where Yahweh recalls his acts towards his people. Their lack of response and sin is in direct contrast to his relationship with {57} them and the historical events through which he has saved them. The divine wrath is Yahweh’s reaction against his own people, with whom he had personal dealings.
In Deuteronomy the wrath of Yahweh is morally and rationally understood. It is the personal reaction of Yahweh to sin, particularly sins like idolatry. It is predictable in the sense that it can be expected in response to Israel’s unfaithfulness and disobedience, both at a personal and collective level. It is conceived and expressed within the context of covenant.
Here the wrath of Yahweh can be understood as divine retributive justice, the fulfilment of his promises of the covenant. It was inherent within the covenant that Yahweh would punish Israel for disobedience to their agreement, as is clear in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. The curses listed in this passage correspond to the agents of Yahweh’s wrath throughout the Old Testament.
It is also in the context of covenant that God’s wrath is turned aside. People are frequently found in the Old Testament turning Yahweh’s wrath. Moses argued with God not to destroy Israel (Exodus 32:9-14). It is this interaction between Yahweh and his people that is characteristic of him in the Old Testament. As a result, Yahweh’s wrath is most often understood as disciplinary in nature. Thus, the entire context of covenant was framed in such a way that the discipline of Yahweh was meant to draw Israel back to repentance, faithfulness, and a whole relationship to Him.
What are the agents or instruments of this wrath of Yahweh? There are a variety of natural and historical catastrophes which reveal Yahweh’s wrath. Sickness and famine are expressions of divine wrath (Num. 11:33; Deut. 28:20-24; 58-61; 2 Sam. 24:15-18; Ps. 88:16; 90:5-8). The natural elements can be agents (Gen. 6:17; 19:24; Ps. 104:4; Isa. 30:30; Jer. 21:14; Joel 1). Various calamities are attributed to Yahweh’s wrath (Amos 3:6; 4:6-13; Isa. 9:8-10:4). Even personal affliction can be the effect of his anger (2 Sam. 12:15-18; Job 14; Ps. 88:16). He uses human instruments as well as natural forces (Isaiah 10:5). One frequent manifestation of divine wrath is defeat in battle. The nations are often seen as agents of the divine wrath as in Isaiah 10:5: “Woe to the Assyrian, the rod of my anger, in whose hand is the club of my wrath!”
It is important to note here that the Old Testament does not see every calamity or human trouble as a manifestation of {58} divine anger. Eichrodt points out that Israel did not develop a systematic understanding of Yahweh’s wrath which made every misfortune a punishment for sin (Eichrodt 260). There was the existence of unexplained evil (2 Samuel 11:25). There was not a one to one correlation between calamity or suffering and Yahweh’s wrath.
Eichrodt also contributes the observation that at this time the divine wrath is understood as being transitory in nature, operating in individual acts of punishment (266). Whereas Yahweh’s love and righteousness are permanent, his wrath is a change in his attitude caused by man’s behavior (Isa. 54:7,8). There was no understanding at this point that Israel was living under the permanent wrath of God. Through the prophetic preaching however, this understanding slowly changed (Eichrodt 267).
The Experience
The fall of Jerusalem and the exile can be seen as Israel’s and Judah’s ultimate experiences of the wrath of Yahweh (2 Chron. 36:17-21; Ps. 106:40-41; Lam. 2; Zech. 7:11-14). This is expressed by the prophets Amos and Hosea, who were prophesying before the fall of Samaria, when the Israelites were taken to Assyria (Amos 2:6-3:15; Hosea 13). The exile is clearly an expression of Yahweh’s wrath as punishment for her unfaithfulness and immoral behavior.
Isaiah, Joel and Micah direct their prophecies primarily to Judah, the southern kingdom before she was taken into exile around 600 B.C. They write warning the people of the coming wrath, calling the people to repentance. Jeremiah, Habakkuk and Zephaniah wrote at the time of the fall and during the exile; Haggai, Zephaniah and Malachi at the time of return (Eerdmans 374-376).
These prophetic books show that the wrath of Yahweh is also directed against the nations, both for their actions against Israel and also for their own immoral and unjust behavior. At the same time, in exilic and post-exilic periods, the mercy of God came to play a larger role in the writings of the Old Testament.
The wrath of Yahweh is seen here as a personal attribute, not separated from his character and activity. The prophetic conception of wrath as Yahweh’s personal reaction to sin, now also expressed against the Gentiles, is accepted and emphasized {59} by the later apocalyptic writers of the Old Testament. They add an eschatological content to it which was not there before.
The Future
An apocalyptic understanding of the divine wrath emerges within the Old Testament writings. Here, although the wrath can be experienced at any time, the prophets increasingly associate it with the coming Day of the Lord. This will be a day of judgement and vengeance (Isa. 2:10-22; Jer. 30; Joel 3:12). Yahweh’s wrath is supremely manifested against the Gentiles and faithless Jews on the last day. The later psalmists see this wrath coming against the heathen as well as unfaithful Jews, but they expect that their own piety will preserve them from it (Ps. 7:6-8; 56:7,9; 79:5-13; 94:1,2,12-15). However even the righteous express anxiety about the coming day of wrath (Ps. 139:1-12; 19-24; Dan. 9:3-19; 12:8; Mal. 4:5-6).
Eichrodt states that, “from being a temporary misfortune, the wrath of God became an inescapable eschatological doom” (267). Wrath then becomes a more permanent reality. The Day of the Lord becomes a day of wrath. This day is also understood as an entrance into a new existence. The apocalyptic view is more prevalent in situations of oppression, such as during the exile.
Summary
In summary then, the wrath of Yahweh appears in the Old Testament as part of his character and his response to human behavior. In a few situations, those characterized as older writings by some authors, there seems to be an element of unpredictability in the expression of his wrath. Perhaps this affirms the mystery and hiddenness of God. There is a clear relationship between Yahweh’s wrath and covenant. Wrath is primarily seen as a response to human sin, both personal and collective. Agents of the divine wrath are varied, including natural elements, sickness, and other nations. The exile is the most significant experience of Yahweh’s wrath against Israel. Increasingly there is an apocalyptic tone to Yahweh’s wrath.
THE UNIQUENESS OF YAHWEH’S WRATH
How does Israel’s conception of Yahweh’s wrath compare {60} to the common understanding of the Ancient Near East? Attributing anger to a deity was a common occurrence, and the motive of divine anger was also commonly understood as human sin, particularly with those who worshipped the Deity as the guardian of justice and keeper of laws (Eichrodt 259).
Israel does appear to differ in a number of ways. The first is that all events were seen as related to the will of Yahweh, the one God. Secondly, the purpose of Yahweh was understood as maintenance of the covenant. Divine wrath then became associated with the idea of breaking this covenant and offending Yahweh himself.
Another major difference between Yahweh and the other gods of that time was that even in personal relationship Yahweh’s wrath never takes on the characteristics of hatred and envy which are apparent in the Greek and Babylonian deities. Even though it is not always understandable, Yahweh’s wrath never takes on demonic attributes (Eichrodt 261). In addition, there is no recourse to magical rites to secure protection from the divine anger, as was done in the surrounding nations. Israel was dependent on Yahweh himself to constrain his wrath (Num. 14:17-19; 2 Sam. 12:13; Joel 2:18).
SOME IMPLICATIONS
An understanding of the wrath of God is significantly linked to a number of theological questions. That of theodicy comes immediately to mind. The suffering of humankind and the problem of evil are closely related to God’s wrath. If God did not respond to human evil (in retributive justice), his love would be an empty concept. Discipline and ultimate justice are essential to believing in Yahweh’s character as it is revealed in the Bible. The apocalyptic development of God’s wrath in the exilic and post-exilic prophets points to the final outworking of justice and righteousness.
Secondly, the wrath of God speaks to our understanding of the character of God himself. His wrath is not the impersonal and automatic functioning of universal laws. Yahweh is a personal, self-determined divine being who interacts with humankind. His wrath is then a real response to human behavior.
How then does the wrath of God relate to the God who is love? Schoonhoven addresses this concern, arguing that Yahweh’s wrath is never given the same significance or ultimacy {61} as his love. Yahweh is never capricious or evil in his wrath. It is not an irrational passion (8). Yahweh’s wrath is a part of his love, an integral part of his justice and mercy. His wrath must be seen within this larger picture, but is, I would assert, a fundamental aspect of his character and ways of dealing with humankind.
A more practical implication points to the importance of the wrath of God in the life of faith. Schoonhoven argues that both positive and negative rewards motivate ethical behavior. The wrath of God is to be understood as negative reward (9). This is corrective wrath, or the discipline of God. God is holy, and we are to warn one another of the effects of disobedience. Today there has been very little emphasis placed on this. Perhaps this stands as a corrective to the predominant theology of the “health and wealth gospel.”
CONCLUSION
The extensive evidence of Yahweh’s wrath in the Old Testament points to its importance for understanding the character and activity of God. This is an area which needs further attention. Understanding the nature of the wrath of Yahweh has implications for our theology and our practical living as disciples of Christ. As Walter Harrelson says, “God cares enough for humankind to be wrathful” (190).
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Brouse, Kenneth D. “Anger: A Biblical and Psychological Study.” Biblical and Psychological Perspectives for Christian Counselors. Robert K. Bower ed. Pasadena: Publishers Services, 1974.
Crenshaw, James L. A Whirlpool of Torment; Israelite Traditions of God as an Oppressive Presence. Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1984.
Dahlberg, B.T. “Wrath of God.” The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible. Vol. 4, 903-908.
Eichrodt, Walther. Theology of the Old Testament, Vol. 1, London: SCM, 1961.
Hanson, Anthony T. The Wrath of the Lamb. London: S.P.C.K., 1957.
Harrelson, Walter. “A Meditation on the Wrath of God: Psalm 90.” Scripture in History and Theology. Ed. A.L. Merrill. Pittsburg: The Pickwick Press, 1977.
Hower, John T. “The Misunderstanding and Mishandling of Anger.” Journal of Psychology and Theology. 2 (1974): 269-275.
Koehler, Ludwig, and Baumgartner, Walter, Lexicon in Veteris Testamenti Libros. 2nd ed. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1958.
Schoonhoven, C. R. “Wrath.” CR 13, no. 4, (1976-77): 7-11.
Wilson, William. Old Testament Word Studies. Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1978.
Katrina Poetker is currently on a missionary assignment with her husband and family in India.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Prov. 1:7).
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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