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Topic: Troubling branches
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epouraniois
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Right, the story of the kinsman redeemer. Not the story of the un naturally graphed in gentiles. There is no liking anyone in Ruth to a tree, being graphed in, or anything like what Paul was speaking of. Although the OT manifestly declared, and Paul quoted, those events which transpired during the Acts, the story of Ruth isn't part of what was quoted by the apostle concerning those gentiles which were used for 18 years to provoke Israel to bear the fruit of repentance and in so doing, turn again to their Lord and receive the time of refreshing.
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Thunderz7
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Ruth 4:1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one! turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
Ruth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
Ruth 4:11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
When I read in the OT that non Jews became Jews, I do not find the corresponding parallel with the un naturally graphed in gentiles who did not have to come under the burden of the law. In the OT, say, Ruth for ex, could you please post the verses stating that they were graphed into the true tree for me. I would like to look at them.
I may be misreading the comments, but I would be rather concerned if the kinsman redeemer was not on the Hebrew side of the story.
When you say it seems doubtful to you that...
Why do we read the Bible? Is it to form our own opinions, likes and dislikes, or is it to acknowledge God's interpretation of His plan of the ages, the historical overlays and events leading to what Peter declared was, 'those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began'. Acts 3.
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The times of refreshing:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Isa 1:3 The ox knoweth his owner, and the *** his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
Isa 1:4 Ah sinful nation...they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.
Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
Without opening the book of Ruth, I vaguely recall something of import about standing outside the gate. Of course, we all know what it means to be outside the gate.
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Thunderz7
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It seems doubtful to me that none of the Israelites,(especially among the unmarried women), would have gone unprovoked when Boaz,
a mighty man of wealth, took Ruth, the Moabitess, for his wife, instead of an Israelite woman, thus redeeming the line of Elimelech through the daughter-in-law.
Redemption of an Israelite line by the marrage of a Moabite.
Ruth must have been the book of the dispensation of no jealousy! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
T7
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epouraniois
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I always thought Ruth was the story of the kinsmen redeemer, not an un naturally graphed in gentile for the purpose of provoking Israel to emulation that she might bear the fruit of repentance and the receiving of the kingdom.
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Thunderz7
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Tamar, Rahab, and Ruth,
long before the "Acts of Paul",
were grafted into the very line of David,
the very family of Y'shua.
T7
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I am denying your assertions that there is more than one Gospel.
I am denying your assertions that the church began in Acts 28.
I am denying your assertions that Jesus and Paul preached different Gospels.
I am denying your assertions that the letters Paul wrote to the Romans and to the Corinthians are not written to church/body/bride of Christ of which I am part.
I am denying your assertions that Paul claims to be the only person to whom the gentile church is revealed.
I am not sure, but maybe you can clear it up with a simple sentence giving your definition of the "Mystery", but I am probably denying what your definition of the "mystery" is.
One more thing that I am denying.. I am denying your assertions that because I am now a citizen of heaven,not of this world, seated with Christ, and blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places, translated now... a member of HIS heavenly Kingdom, that I have no inheirtance in the Earthly Kingdom that is yet to come. I have inheritiance in it as well because I am ONE Body with and inseperably and eternally joined by God in marriage with the ONE who is heir to that Kingdom and to the Throne of David for ever.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
Are you suggesting that we should join together that which God has not joined together?
No, I am not suggesting that. You have suggested that this is what is done by those who do not believe that there are 3 gospels or that the church began at Acts 28.
I was pointing out that the statement "Do not join what God has separated" does not occur in the scripture. (except of course with regard to joining that which is holy with that which is not)
The scripture states we are not to separate what God has joined; so, then it occurs to me that this is what men would try and do, which It seems to me that your version of dispensationalism does.
Since I am quoting Scripture, then it is not my version.
Do you deny that it is written that during the Acts the gentiles were graphed into Israel, and made partakers of Israel's spiritual things, and connected to New Jerusalem?
Do you deny that the Lord prayed with the disiples that the meek shall in herit the earth and throughout the OT that is Israel who is to inherit the earth?
Do you deny that the church revealed by what Paul called the mystery has blessings in heavenly places?
Do you deny that heaven is not the earth?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Are you suggesting that we should join together that which God has not joined together?
No, I am not suggesting that. You have suggested that this is what is done by those who do not believe that there are 3 gospels or that the church began at Acts 28.
I was pointing out that the statement "Do not join what God has separated" does not occur in the scripture. (except of course with regard to joining that which is holy with that which is not)
The scripture states we are not to separate what God has joined; so, then it occurs to me that this is what men would try and do, which It seems to me that your version of dispensationalism does.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Are you suggesting that we should join together that which God has not joined together?
Christ said in Joh 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"
Of the sons of God, we read the parenthetical of Joh 1:13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
My point is easily seen in Gen 1:3 and 4, where we read "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness."
I believe we should maintain that which God has joined, and think it not inappropriate the statement "Let us not joint that which God has made seperate."
Again I ask, what are the similarities of the churches throughout the Acts, and the one revealed as, "His body", and "the mystery" in the prison epistles? Where do their respective blessings lie as far as they are located? Is one promised blessings in the earth? The meek shall inherit the earth. Is one promised blessings in New Jerusalem? "The holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." Is one blessed in heavenly places?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
those are the three spheres of blessing, and each is called the hope of the respective believer for the administration to which they belong. each is further demarcated by the term 'adoption'.
there are three firstborns. one for each sphere of blessing.
let us not join that which God has made seperate.
![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) Ironically, That is not the warning of the scripture:
Mark 10:9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Matthew 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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How were the gentiles to provoke the Nation to jealousy parazēloō, to emulation parazēloō?
Well, They had the Jewish Penacostal gifts, they had fire over their heads, the Jews heard them in their own tongues, 'the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following':
Act 11:15
And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16
Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
Plus, they didn't have to keep the law, they didn't have to be circumsiced, keep the Sabbaths, while the Jew maintained the law. That is the diff between the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumcision. Paul and Peter both taught out of Moses and the Prophet and the Psalms, the 12 tribes of Israel instantly serving God night and day. Both preached for the hope of Israel. From AD44 till AD 62 Paul was in bonds for the hope of Israel while at the same time Paul alone speaks to gentiles. But only afterward the Jew heard first, and outside the temple for those 18 yearsHe spake the Chief of the Jews in Rome at the end of Acts.
I think it is maybe Acts 19 that they are going to kill Paul because they think he took a gentile into the temple court.
The gentiles were to take up alms (money) to send to Jerusalem, for in Romans 15:27 we read "It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things". This was the relationship the gentile as he partook of Israel's spiritual things during the Acts.
The prophetic timeclock stopped. The mystery was revealed and fully preached by Paul in prison for two full years, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
Paul is a williing prisoner. But Paul can never quote Scripture to tell of the revelation of the mystery. Paul says:
Eph 3:1-3
For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles...which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery
It is in these prison epistles where gentiles find true for today. Yet, even though this church is built upon the apostles and prophets, there is nothing in common with any churches previously revealed beyond the need for a Saviour because of the fall and being born into sin. All are saved by the blood shed on the tree. All are justified by the just and the justifier. But this is not the a church which looks for Israel's blessings, for Israel never is given every blessing which is spiritual in heavenly places, as an example of just one thing that is different. The time of choosing was different. The churchs' time of choosing was 'before the foundation fo the world', but Israels choosing was from the foundation of the world, about ch. 11-12 of Genesis. Israel was the revealed channel to bless the nations. Ephesians 3:9 states that it is the authorities and aristocracy of heaven that is learning of the manifold wisdom of God by the church.
Completly different callings, hopes, and sphere of blessings. All adopted into the family of God.
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epouraniois
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The key:
Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which engendereth to bondage, which is Hagar.
Gal 4:25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not; for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath a husband.
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the Scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Remember that Ishmael means "God will hear", and has promise to be a great nation. The NT therefore has declared to us who those gentiles were, for they were not just any gentiles, but those living N. and N.E. into Greecia and Roma.
It is not suprizing therefore, that this is not taught in Public Worship. Because Public Worship has claimed that every non Jew was partaking of "Israel's spiritual things" and therefore the church is being spiritualized today into that which is contrary to Bible Teaching.
The fact is, for only 18 years were any non Jews permitted to hear about God, and for only one reason, the hope of Israel to bear fruit by way of emulation, emulating those non Jews faith. The provocation provoked them alright, but not to emulation.
Hence the divorce at the end of Acts and the revelation of the mystery which is, finally, about a church body, and not about the kingdom hope of Israel.
There were probably not more than 10,000 believers by the end of Acts, but as Paul has told us, even all in Asia turned away from the teachings concerning goint to heaven to be with the Lord there, far above all.
The rejection persists today still, instead embracing the claims that we are graphed into Israel, neglecting the fact that the entire tree was cut down.
Not many can face the facts that if the tree is cut to the root, whatever was graphed in falls too. To do so is to excommunicated from Public Worship.
With the end of that administration of God working with Israel, signs and wonders and miracles following, the Lord working with them, a new administration was necessitated.
The new administration is the only one written to all nations and called the church. The church is announced. Abraham is off the scene, Israel is off the scene. The earthly kingdom is off the scene. No more can the Bible be quoted because, as the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you gentiles said, this mystery, or secret, was hid in God. Not only that, but hid in God from ages and from generations.
Think about this.
earth
new jerusalem
heaven
those are the three spheres of blessing, and each is called the hope of the respective believer for the administration to which they belong. each is further demarcated by the term 'adoption'.
there are three firstborns. one for each sphere of blessing.
let us not join that which God has made seperate.
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Thunderz7
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I have been, for the most part, in agreement with this thread.
I do have a problem with the first paragraph regarding the part in parentheses.
quote:
Israel has been likened unto a tree, and certain gentiles (of promise,i.e., Hagar...her children) were graphed into the true tree Israel, albeit un naturally. The purpose to provoke Israel. Into emulation of believing non Jews. All of this is OT prophecy coming to a head in the most dire of all Israel's prophecies.
At the birth of Ishmael, Israel was still in the loins of Abram, there was no Israel for Hagar to be grafted to.
Isaac was the child of promise, Sarah the mother of promise.
Ishmael was born to the bondwoman, by uncircumcised Abram, conceived without blood covinant.
Issac was born to the woman of promise, by Abraham, with a covinant of circumcision.
Though YHWH blessed Ishmael, for the sake of Abraham, I don't see that Ishmael was ever a part of Israel.
Does Ishmael provoke Israel? - Yes
Is Ishmael a part of Israel? - No
T7
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epouraniois
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To continue:
The fact that the Gentiles who believed had received ‘the blessing of Abraham’ in the form of the promised ‘spirit’ (Gal. 3:14), and that they possessed the gifts associated with Pentecost (1 Cor. 14:21), was intended to provoke Israel to wake up to the fact that their unique position was going.
Only while Israel existed as ‘a people’ was it possible for believing Gentiles to be grafted in among the other believing branches -
- and so become linked with the blessing of Abraham, and partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree. We are preserved from any attempt at spiritualizing the expression ‘All Israel shall be saved’, by the fact that the apostle quotes Isaiah 59:20, where the Deliverer Who comes out of Zion shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Not often do I meet anyone who would teach that ‘Jacob’ can mean anything but the literal people of Israel.
All this is in fulfilment of the New Covenant:
‘For this is My Covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins’ (Rom. 11:27).
Under the terms of the New Covenant, the forgiveness of sins leads to the restoration of the Nation (Jer. 31:31-37), and in verse 37 we read:
‘If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord’ (31:37).
With the knowledge of this promise under the New Covenant, the apostle writes:
‘As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance’ {change in aftermind}(Rom. 11:28,29).
The difficulty with some students is that the apostle does not actually speak of the cutting down of the olive tree in Romans 11, but only of ‘some of the branches’ having been broken off. The answer is that the epistle to the Romans was written before Acts 28, and still expressed the hope that, even at the eleventh hour, Israel would be provoked unto emulation, and be saved. No indication is given that the ‘fulness of the Gentiles’ would not be attained until now nearly two thousand years had elapsed.
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epouraniois
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Thank you for posting those, it is always good to have them ready and in view.
With the opening of Romans 11 the apostle begins to draw his conclusions. Stated briefly, they are:
1. God hath not cast away His people: Proof -- I also am an Israelite and saved.
2. God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew: Proof -- In Israel’s darkest days, God had reserved unto Himself a faithful company, unknown even to Elijah himself.
3. There is now also at the present time, ‘a remnant according to the election of grace’.
Those who form this ‘remnant’ have believed in the Lord, and are justified. Their standing is in grace, and not in works. Israel as a nation has entered into a period of darkness and blindness, but the salvation of ‘the election’ foreknown by God, is in perfect harmony with God’s sovereignty as discussed at length in Romans 9. No Israelite was coerced into believing; no Israelite was prevented from believing. God’s foreknowledge covers the whole problem, without doing violence either to the principles of morality, or to Divine sovereignty.
With this emphasis on the privileges of Israel, the case of the Gentiles should be compared, as set forth in Ephesians.
Dispensational disabilities of the Gentiles is reflected back for remembrance:
(Eph: 2:11,12)
A. Gentiles in the flesh.
__B. Without Christ.
___C. Aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.
_____C. Strangers from the covenants of promise.
___B. Having no hope.
A. Godless in the world.
The quotation from Psalm 69 wherein the apostle concludes his argument is suggestive. The Psalm is Messianic, and contains the verse (25) quoted by Peter concerning Judas: ‘Let their (his) habitation be desolate’ (Acts 1:20).
Israel had betrayed the Lord. Their self-righteousness had blinded their eyes, and the great fact that Christ was the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth became a stumbling block and an offence to them.
Only a remnant believed, and that elect company was not exclusively Jewish, but included those who walked in the steps of Abraham’s faith. There was no difference between the Jew and the Greek, for ‘the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon Him’.
Towards the close of Romans 10 the apostle quotes the statement of Moses, that the Lord would provoke Israel to jealousy ‘by them that are no people’. This he now unfolds in connection with the great subject of the reconciling of the world, which is dealt with in Romans 11:11-36.
When Ephesians says the church revealed therein is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, this is a literal statement. Romans provide the stones for Ephesians temple.
While the superstructure Temple of Ephesians 2 is a ‘new creation’ (Eph. 2:15 (R.V.), 20-22), the foundation stones were laid by the apostle in his earlier ministry. Among the most prominent of these foundation stones is the doctrine of justification by faith. The conditions under which justification may be received are given in Romans 4:4,5
What does Ephesians teach?:
‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast’ (Eph. 2:8,9).
Here the general trend is identical:
‘Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith’ (Rom. 3:27).
If one should say that the omission of the word ‘justify’ or ‘righteousness’ from Ephesians 2 renders it unfit as a true parallel, we may turn to Philippians 3. There the apostle expresses the desire:
‘Be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by (through) faith’ (Phil. 3:9).
This passage is explicit. It practically sums up Romans 3:21,22:
‘But now the righteousness of God without the law ... even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ’.
This righteousness moreover is the breastplate in the ‘armour of God’ (Eph. 6:14).
Ephesians speaks to a choosing chosen from before the foundation of the world, whereas all that came before speaks to a choosing chosen since/from the foundation of the world (Mat 25:34;Rom 16:25) joining main themes throughout;
Ephesians and forward never speaks to the coming of the Lord, for that is a earthly kingdom hope, whereas the church looks to appearing with Him when He appears in glory. That will be, as written, in the heavenly places far above all.
Back to Romans:
In the earlier verses of Romans 11, the apostle shows that the failure of the bulk of the nation of Israel in no way invalidates God’s purpose or His faithfulness. We have seen that the prophets foretold ‘a remnant according to the election of grace’, and we also learn that the defection of Israel has been overruled to bring about the reconciliation of the Gentile world. Looking on to the close of the chapter, we find that ‘all Israel’ shall be saved, because ‘the gifts and calling of God are without repentance’. The words ‘all Israel’, ‘Jacob’, and ‘Zion’, together with the prophecy alluded to, preclude our making any deduction from these verses but one -- namely, that there will be a national restoration and blessing of Israel according to the terms of the New Covenant. Quite a number of questions suggest themselves as we read this section, but it is evident that the apostle, when he wrote about the olive tree, had no intention of introducing a theological argument at this point. He had one and only one purpose before him -- to seek to show, by the figure of the olive tree, how the Lord had used Gentile believers, in order, if it were possible, to ‘provoke’ the nation of Israel ‘to emulation’. This, and this only, is the reason for introducing the figure, and the recognition of this will save us from almost endless argument as to the ultimate destiny of the branches that remained.
It is evident that the apostle is speaking here of the dispensational aspect of truth, for no Gentile could be justified by being placed in the position forfeited by one of the natural branches of Israel’s olive tree.
And moreover, no believer, who is justified by faith, can ever be separated from the love of God, or can be condemned (Rom. 8), so that the threat of excision in Romans 11:22 must refer to the ‘dispensational’ position which then obtained.
What does the olive tree represent?
In Jeremiah. In chapter 11 we read:
‘The Lord called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit ... the branches of it are broken’ (Jer. 11:16).
Not only does Paul take the figure of the olive tree, and its broken branches, from Jeremiah, but he also refers to Jeremiah 31:31 in Romans 11:27, where the olive tree is once more complete. There are some who have sought to show that the olive tree of Romans 11 is to be found in Christendom today, but such teaching is contrary to Jeremiah 11 and 31 and Romans 11 alike. The Book of Jeremiah consists of fifty-one prophecies, each introduced by some phrase as, ‘The word of the Lord came’. The opening prophecy is indicative of all the rest:
‘See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to thrown down, to build, and to plant’ (Jer. 1:10).
The subjects of this prophecy are clearly ‘nations’ and ‘kingdoms’, not churches.
‘God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew’ (11:2).
‘There is a remnant according to the election of grace’ (11:5).
‘Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded’ (11:7).
The branches that were broken off were the unbelieving among Israel, the remaining branches constituting a remnant. Into the place from which the unbelieving of Israel had been broken off, the Gentile believer had been grafted, ‘contrary to nature’.
Why does the apostle use the expression ‘contrary to nature’? The root and fatness of the olive tree belonged to Israel, and if Israel had repented, would have been restored at that time.
It is clear that Paul cannot be referring to the great promise of justification by faith. He warns the believing Gentile that he might be ‘cut off’ -- a warning that cannot refer to justification by faith, for Romans 8 makes separation for ever impossible; and Abraham himself was an uncircumcised Gentile when he was justified by faith, and so can be the father of all who believed, whether Jews or Gentiles, without any necessity for a grafting in ‘contrary to nature’. (So far as justification was concerned, the oneness of all believers, whether Jews or Gentiles, was so close, that many have taken the words of Galatians 3:27-29 as though they were written in Ephesians) -- ‘Contrary to nature’ cannot, therefore, be used of the great doctrine of Romans 1 to 8, it can only apply to the dispensational teaching of Romans 9 to 11. The doctrinaltruth remains; the dispensational aspects change, and pass away.
In the structure of Romans 11:11-32, we will see that the word ‘provoke’ is given three times. Two of these references actually occur (in verses 11 and 14), while in verses 17 to 24 instead of stating the fact for the third time, we find that the apostle uses the figure of the olive tree.
And this is the reason we are given for gentiles being graphed into Israel's tree for some 18 years, right up until the tree is hewn down, judgment pronounced.
Then the church is revealed in what Paul calls 'the mystery', although there had been serveral mysteries, or secrets revealed in their time.
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Caretaker
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Romans 11:
17: And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18: Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19: Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22: Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23: And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24: For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25: For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
26: And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28: As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29: For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30: For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32: For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33: O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34: For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
35: Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36: For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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Israel has been likened unto a tree, and certain gentiles (of promise,i.e., Hagar...her children) were graphed into the true tree Israel, albeit un naturally. The purpose to provoke Israel. Into emulation of believing non Jews. All of this is OT prophecy coming to a head in the most dire of all Israel's prophecies.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
We have only to turn to Romans 15:12,13, to see that Paul and the Church were still expecting the fulfilment of Isaiah 11 as well as Jeremiah 31. The ‘hope of Israel’ was still the one hope before them all.
A very real difficulty that some feel in connection with these passages is the fate of the believing section.
[b]If the whole tree is cut down by the roots at the end of the Acts, then believer and unbeliever are treated alike.
Yet the believing remnant constitute a firstfruit, and are holy.
We must be very certain of all our terms here. If the olive tree represents the nation and its national standing, then whatever the problem may be, it is clear that, as Israel as a nation before God does not exist, the olive tree has been cut down. The believing branches, therefore, must have some other ground of blessing. If we change the figure from the olive tree to that of a divorced wife, as in Jeremiah 3:1 and 11:15,16, we may perhaps see more clearly that the believing remnant lost nothing when the national position of Israel was altered at Acts 28. Israel as a restored nation is represented as a divorced wife received back by the Lord (Jer. 3:1), but the believing remnant is spoken of as the ‘bride of the Lamb’ (Rev. 21:9). The ‘divorced wife’ is restored to the land, but the ‘bride’ is associated with the heavenly Jerusalem. There is, therefore, a great difference between the destinies of the believing and the unbelieving branches. In some cases the change was even greater.
Paul himself lost his national association with Israel when the nation was set aside, but he entered into a sphere of blessing so great as to enable him to count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. Others would find their sphere of blessing set forth in John 14 to 17, and learn that though they were no longer branches in the olive tree of Israel, they were branches in Christ as the True Vine, and so had lost nothing. If we recognize that dispensational standing may change to our advantage, as it manifestly did in the case of Timothy, Luke and Paul, our difficulty about the believing branches of the olive tree will be resolved. Doctrinal standing is not in view in Romans 11. The grafting in of the unbelieving branches into their own olive tree at the end, represents the restoration of Israel’s national position ‘in that day’. Neither in Paul’s epistles of the Mystery, nor in John’s gospel for the ‘world’, can the olive tree be discovered. The New Covenant, and the hope of Israel, are in abeyance, and not until God’s good time will they be put into operation.
Hosea, speaking of the day of Israel’s restoration, uses the same figures under consideration -- the restoration of the separated wife (Hos. 3:3-5), and the spreading branches of the olive (Hos. 14:6).
Not to be missed is that the chief Jews at Rome use the word devorce ((Acts28:25)trans. departed) for themselves and the following apostles quoting of that dreadful passage as Isa. 6-10 adjudicates the nation unable to hear and unable to see. The salvation of God sent to the nations, they will hear.
Edited:
{realizing that many here do not like, even offended, at the word dispensation. To this I can only say that if it weren't in the Bible, I would not have much likelihood in ever running across the word. to this end, I can offer no appologies and would hope it is not held against}
About 2 years ago now I guess, I wrote on a bb that I was not seated with Christ where He sits far above all. I had not yet learned the instruction that I needed to pray that I may understand what is the hope of His calling. I said I was seated right here where I sit. That was part of my Bible Study experience. I didn't understand, had not acknowledged that I was to acknowledge how God sees the members of His church body, in resurrection power. I Did Not Receive What Is The Fellowship Of The Mystery In That Portion Of My Studies. It just continues to unfold doesn't it.
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