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Topic: What we believe
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
zen, what David the Admin/Owner said in that statement has nothing to do with you stating what you think it means to be a Christian. While I cannot speak for David, I am confident that he would like to know too what you think it means to be a Christian.
The fact that you have been avoiding making this statement, plus your zen moniker, and your questions in your Topic starter, makes me suspect that you are a New Age-type of "Christian", one who thinks that the Old Testament is a book of war and not of love, and so you read primarily the New Testament and you seek to emulate what Jesus did and said, but you do not see yourself as a "sinner from birth" in need of salvation.
Is that about correct, or not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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zen
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Born Again:
David, whom I assume to be the administrator of this message board, has already said:
quote:
On this message board we do believe that the entire bible is 100% accurate and it is the inerrant Word of God. This is not up for debate and it will not be debated on this message board.
I am trying to respect that.
I am not here to fight. I am here to learn.
Posts: 10 | From: michigan | Registered: Apr 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
okay. So could you give me a short "stament of faith" in what it is that you actually believe when you say you are a Christian?
I and others ask that because, say, someone may be born into a Catholic family and say I am a Christian, but they have never personally decided that they were a sinner and that they therefore needed salvation thru Jesus's work on the cross, i.e., they are "works-oriented" Christians who still think they need to "earn" their way into eternal life.
Could you please tell us what you think it means to be a Christian, and then we can go on from there.
Thanks, BORN AGAIN
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Carmela
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Hi again Zen. Thank you for your kind words.
There are times when I try to quiet my mind and I usually count my breaths but I find it difficult to quiet my mind so I usually pray instead. Meditating on the Lord, I definitely agree with.
However, there aren't contradictions in the bible even though it appears that way. Again, I am not informed in this well enough to try to share it with others. I'm sorry.
I don't believe that slavery is ok. I don't believe it's ok to mistreat anyone. However,I believe Jesus talked about treating a slave well and slaves obeying their masters. However, I don't think he meant for people to mistreat each other.
I do believe that the old law is done away with. Jesus is the way to salvation now. That is why we don't have any animal sacrifices any more. He paid the ultimate price already.
I'm sorry, I will finish later, I must go for now.
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www.pinecrest.org
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zen
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
The word "meditation" as used by New Agers (I used to be one) means to "sit for long periods of time in a certain position, and follow one's breath as it goes in and out of one's nose", and thus learn to de-activate those constant thoughts that like to come up.
The word "meditate" is also used in the Bible and means, as you said, "to contemplate on" and to "reflect on" and "allow the intent of a passage to enter in", etcetera, such as "meditate on these words day and night"; this kind of meditation is thus diff than the New Age type of meditation.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
I completely agree with everything you just said.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 10 | From: michigan | Registered: Apr 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
The word "meditation" as used by New Agers (I used to be one) means to "sit for long periods of time in a certain position, and follow one's breath as it goes in and out of one's nose", and thus learn to de-activate those constant thoughts that like to come up.
The word "meditate" is also used in the Bible and means, as you said, "to contemplate on" and to "reflect on" and "allow the intent of a passage to enter in", etcetera, such as "meditate on these words day and night"; this kind of meditation is thus diff than the New Age type of meditation.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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zen
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Thank you Carmy for your honest, sincere, thoughtful and informative reply to some of my original questions.
I am not sure, from your reply, what your beliefs are on the "kill those who worship other (false) Gods" and "slavery is o.k." questions that arise from Numbers and Exodus, but perhaps you adhere to the Law/Grace dispensation belief that seems to imply that there has been a change, since Jesus arrived, in the rules we are to follow (including, I presume, the very detailed dietary rules and directions for animal sacrifice found in the Old Testament).
Your explanation of the "women shouldn't talk in church" statement makes sense to me.
You seem to be saying--and please forgive/correct me if I get this wrong-- that you have to consider the cultural context, who the writer was talking to, the times they were living in, and what was going on at the time the letter was written in order to really grasp the meaning of what Paul was saying.
O.K.
I have already agreed not to debate the inerrant nature of the bible as a single work on this message board, so i will refrain from talking about contradictions contained in the bible. (I don't want to get banned. I just got here! )
Let's see...anything else...?
Yes. The meditation thing.
I will grant that you probably don't know what I meant by "meditation" (my fault for not explaining). I suspect that the zen practice of "no mind" is completely different from what you are thinking about when you say "meditation is not of God" because it involves focusing on something other than God. Maybe that's what meditation is for many people; maybe I used the wrong word. But the zen practice of "no mind" involves specifically NOT focusing on anything. Quieting the thoughts. Becoming still. That's all. (I say "that's all" as if it were easy--it's not.)
This is completely different from prayer. (And it most certainly does not replace prayer.)
I do not agree with the blanket statement that "meditation is NOT of God" (but, to be fair, I think that upon further reflection, you would probably not agree with that statement either).
To meditate, to use the word in its normal and--I can now say--more appropriate sense, is "to engage in thought or contemplation, to reflect".
I do not think that you would see a problem with meditating upon the life of Jesus or the glory of God.
quote:
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord, my strength and my redeemer.
Posts: 10 | From: michigan | Registered: Apr 2006
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
hi, Zen, when you say you are a Christian, what does it mean to you to be a Christian?
Can you give me a brief statement of what you believe?
The reason I ask is that, usually, a Christian already understands that by believing in Jesus who suffered on the cross for all of mankind's sins, that we can go free (eventhough we still have a sin problem like in the Old Testament).
Do you believe, for instance, that you were and are a sinner from birth in need of salvation thru the work that Jesus did on the cross?
Thanks, BORN AGAIN
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Watcher
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Zen,
God didn’t confine His wrath to the Canaanites, or to those mentioned in Revelation. He proclaimed the death sentence upon the whole of humanity. We will all die because we have broken God’s Law. Every one of us is waiting on death row.
Zen
Instead of standing in moral judgment over Almighty God, we need to judge ourselves according to the Law of God. We will find that we have a multitude of sins and therefore are deserving of punishment. Yet God, out of love, paid the penalty for our sin so we would not have to.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
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wparr
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Zen,
If you would give a base line from where you are coming from first off.
You've already stated that you don't believe that the WHOLE Bible is The Word of God
2 Timothy 3:16-17
(16) ALL Scripture is inspired by God (God-breathed,) and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
(17) so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
Do you believe in the Diety of Y'shua (Jesus), that He IS God in the flesh?
Matthew 1:23
"Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son. They shall call his name Immanu'el;" which is, being interpreted, "God with us."
Do you believe that faith in Him is the ONLY way to eternal life?
John 14:6
(6) Y'shua said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me".
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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Carmela
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Zen I was looking into the question you asked about the slave. It does not say that if the slave dies after a day or two then there isn't a punishment. In fact, I looked up the word continue in the Hebrew language and it said this:
5975 `amad (aw-mad');
a primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literal and figurative, intransitive and transitive):
KJV-- abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.
This point to life, not death. The word cease doesn't apply here because it is talking about stopping, not dying.
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www.pinecrest.org
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Carmela
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Hello Zen. Nice to meet you. Since no one else seems to be answering your questions, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability.
First, I will start though with your ending remark. Meditation is NOT of God. If you are putting your focus on anything other than God, you will find that God is no longer the focus. If you are a Christian, it is important to remember that your focus should always be upon Him alone. Meditate on Jesus through prayer and praise and Worship and you can even dance in the streets as David did as long as your focus is on Him alone and not on the things that meditation causes people to focus on.
I also have a mind that tends to wander and something that even gets in the way of prayer but I have to keep re-focusing my attention back on to Jesus and the more I do this, the easier it becomes, although I still have times that are harder to keep my focus than other times. When this happens, I talk to the Lord about it. He already knows my struggles after all.
Ok, I am not familiar with all of the contradictions in the bible but there is one that I can reply to you about. You asked this:
quote:
Women should not speak in church. 1 Cor. 14:34,35
Zen, here you have to really know the culture back in the bible days. Why? Because during this time and in this particular church, women were very vocal and they were actually interrupting the services. Men sat on one side normally and the women on the other and sometimes the women would yell questions to their husbands. So, this word that you quoted was spoken over them. The same situation applies to the scripture about women having to cover their heads. That was referring to women of those days.
I am sure that if women are continually causing distractions within the church today, then they would be addressed the same way by Paul. However, with the culture so different most women are not yelling across the church and disrupting the preacher, although I recently left a church because of a woman that kept distracting the service.
You also quoted this:
quote:
Any child who curses his parents should be put to death. Lev. 20:9
I don't know the historical background for this one, but I do know that the bible is full of quotes for parents and children. The bible says that an unruly child brings shame to their parents. Whether the above means actual physical death in those times or meaning something different I don't know but what I do know is that God wants us to raise our children properly. If we have unruly children, they are an embarrassment to their parents and society (which we are seeing through more crimes by young people)and even to God.
There aren't contradictions in the bible, just a lack of understanding on our parts. I was discussing this with a friend of mine and he gave me examples of things that appear to be contradictions, but they really aren't. I'm sorry but I don't remember them right now.
Also Zen, you bring up about God being a loving God. God is a God of love. However, if you love your child, you punish them so they will learn right from wrong. You slap their hand before they touch the fire to protect them so that they don't get burned. God is the same. If God gives us everything that we want and never reprimands us, we become as spoiled brats. EVERYONE will be this way.
We see wars in the bible and where God seems to turn His back on people, but in reality it's the people that turned their backs on God. If you read the Old Testament, like Exodus, you will see that as many times as the people turned their backs on God, He NEVER turned His back on them. He did EVERYTHING that He could to draw people back to Him. However, when a person chooses to turn their backs on God and refuses to come back to Him, God lets that person have their way. BUT.....if and when that person is ready to turn back to Him, He is waiting there with His arms wide open and He is ready to receive them back into His Kingdom.
If you read the story of the prodigal son, this is what God is like with us. He will let us go, but He longs for us to return home to Him.
I hope this helps a little.
Love, Carmy
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www.pinecrest.org
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zen
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Or perhaps Buddhist?
Zen Buddhism is a mixture of Indian Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism. It began in China, spread to Korea and Japan, and became very popular in the West from the mid 20th century.
The essence of Zen is attempting to understand the meaning of life directly, without being misled by logical thought, or language.
Zen techniques are compatible with other faiths and are often used, for example, by Christians seeking a mystical understanding of their faith.
I am a Christian. Zen is a nickname I picked up years ago. And while "Zen" is almost by definition impossible to define, David's summary is about as accurate as any I have ever read.
And yes, Zen meditation techniques to clear the mind of thoughts are compatible with other faiths and are used by Christians seeking a mystical understanding of their faith. [Psalms 46:10-- "Be still, and know that I am God."]
This is especially important to someone like me whose mind always seems to be running 100 miles per hour in search of logical answers. (Which is probably pretty clear from my posts, eh?)
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zen
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Not sure if anyone has answered my original question. I did not know it would be so complicated.
But this is what I have been able to discern from the replies posted thusfar:
ROGG said: “In the Old Testiment mankind was under the law, in the New Testiment Jesus fulfilled the Law and mankind is under grace.”
While this doesn’t really directly answer my question, it at least gives me a starting point from which to try and understand you.
So does this mean that certain rules and directives found in the Old Testament--such as those cited from Numbers, Leviticus and Exodus, regarding slavery and the execution of disobedient children and those that worship other (false) Gods-- are no longer applicable now that Jesus has fulfilled the Law and mankind is under grace?
CARETAKER tells me: “Do not wrest passages out of their context and their respective Dispensation, their time and their place and contrast them with scripture passages in a different Dispensation with the intention of negating their credibility.”
It is apparent from this statement that you do not understand my intention at all. I do not mean to wrest these passages out of their context. They say what they say. Read them in context and tell me if you come to a different conclusion about what is being said.
The second part of your statement is more promising, though still cryptic to me. “Their respective dispensation”. It appears that this parallels Rogg’s observation about the distinction between the Old Testament/Law and New Testament/Grace.
You are saying the same thing, right?
If so, then I would pose the same question to you: Does this mean that certain rules and directives found in the Old Testament--such as those cited from Numbers, Leviticus and Exodus, regarding slavery and the execution of disobedient children and those that worship other (false) Gods-- are no longer applicable now that Jesus has fulfilled the Law and mankind is under grace? (Goodbye oranges, hello apples?)
(BTW, please understand, i am not trying to be a "smart alec". I sincerely want to know what you are talking about. Your views on this "dispensation" thing are new to me.)
At times in the past when I have raised this same point that you make-- though i did not use the term "dispensation", some people have pointed to Matthew 5:17-20 to try and say that Jesus did not come to destroy or change the old Law at all, but only to add to it and that, therefore, all of the rules and directives found in the Old Testament are still applicable.
I have found no reference by Jesus to “dispensation”, but I do note your reference to Paul’s letter to the Galatians and also see some mention of it in Paul’s letters to the Ephesians (Eph. 1:10 and 3:2), Corinthians (1 Cor. 9:17) and Colossians (1:25).
As to the New Testament passage from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians: “Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.” (1 Cor. 14:34,35)—what is you understanding/interpretation of this?
Again, please understand: I am not asking you to “wrest” anything out of context. Put it in whatever context you believe is appropriate and true. It seems pretty clear to me what it is saying—just what it says. What do you believe?
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KnowHim
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Or perhaps Buddhist?
Zen Buddhism is a mixture of Indian Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism. It began in China, spread to Korea and Japan, and became very popular in the West from the mid 20th century.
The essence of Zen is attempting to understand the meaning of life directly, without being misled by logical thought, or language.
Zen techniques are compatible with other faiths and are often used, for example, by Christians seeking a mystical understanding of their faith.
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zen
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
Shalom Zen in the name of Yeshua the Messiah,
Are you a Muslim by any chance?
Shalom yahsway!
No. I am a Christian.
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yahsway
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Shalom Zen in the name of Yeshua the Messiah,
Are you a Muslim by any chance?
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Caretaker
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I absolutely concur with the Word of God as to every jot and tittle. It was absolutely correct as to the time, the place, and the context in which it was given.
God spoke, Moses wrote, and the Law was given.
In the fullness of time Christ came and through His death on the Cross the Grace of God was given to ALL WHO WILL come to Christ.
Galations 3:
22: But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23: But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24: Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25: But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26: For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27: For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29: And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Do not wrest passages out of their context and their respective Dispensation, their time and their place and contrast them with scripture passages in a different Dispensation with the intention of negating their credibility.
Other than the passage in regards to women in the church, the passages you quote are from the Dispensation of the Law. To contrast them with the Dispensation of Grace under Christ is to compare apples to Oranges.
Who do you believe Jesus of Nazareth to be?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Rogg
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In the Old Testiment mankind was under the law, in the New Testiment Jesus fulfilled the Law and mankind is under grace.
Posts: 83 | From: St. Louis MO | Registered: Jan 2006
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zen
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
The single most critical question to be asked is, "What think ye of Jesus Christ?"
Amen to that. That is what I am saying.
I ask the question about the passages quoted--from Numbers, Leviticus, 1 Corinthians and Exodus--because I am bound by the greatest of commandments:
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On thse two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. MATT 22:34-40
Now, it is in light of the answer to what you so aptly pointed out as "the single most critical question", i.e. "What think ye of Jesus?", which I most whole heartedly agree with, that I ask:
Should any child who curses their parents be put to death? Lev. 20:9
Should people who practice other religions or worship other gods be executed? Num: 25:1-5
Should women not speak in church? 1 Cor. 14:34,35
Does God believe that slavery is acceptable, and it's o.k. to beat a slave (as long he or she remains alive for a day or two after the beating and isn't killed outright)? Exodus 21:21
What is your intepretation of these verses?
.
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Caretaker
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We believe that the Scriptures, both Old and New Testaments, are the
inspired Word of God and are therefore without error in the original writings.
We further believe that this inspiration is not in different degrees, but extends
equally and fully to all parts of the Bible: historical, poetical, doctrinal and
prophetical. We, therefore, believe in the absolute authority of the Bible in all
matters of faith and practice.
II Timothy 3:16, 17;
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
II Peter 1:21.
21: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Do not confuse the Dispensation of the Law, with the Dispensation of Grace through Christ Jesus our Lord, wherein He fulfilled the Law. The total Law of God is summed up in the Two Commandments of Jesus:
Matt 22:
34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Scripture must be interpreted through the context of the respective passage, and through the context of the entire Bible to be understood.
The single most critical question to be asked is, "What think ye of Jesus Christ?"
He is the ONLY way to God.
He is the only salvation for anyone.
He is God manifest in the flesh.
Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
John 3:
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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zen
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
On this message board we do believe that the entire bible is 100% accurate and it is the inerrant Word of God. This is not up for debate and it will not be debated on this message board.
I am not sure i understand what you are saying in relation to my original post.
Do you agree with the statements, mentioned above, that:
Any child who curses his parents should be put to death. Lev. 20:9
People who practice other religions or worship other gods should be executed. Num: 25:1-5
Women should not speak in church. 1 Cor. 14:34,35
Slavery is acceptable, and it's o.k. to beat a slave (as long he or she remains alive for a day or two after the beating and isn't killed outright). Exodus 21:21
???
Because this is your message board, I will accept that you do not want to debate that the entire bible is 100% accurate and it is the inerrant Word of God.
But, given that, what is your interpretation of these verses?
.
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KnowHim
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The Bible has many seeming contradictions within its pages. For example, the four Gospels give four differing accounts as to what was written on the sign that hung on the cross. Matthew said, “This is Jesus the King of the Jews” (27:37). However, Mark contradicts that with “The King of the Jews” (15:26). Luke says something different: “This is the King of the Jews” (23:38), and John maintains that the sign said “Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews” (19:19). Those who are looking for contradictions may therefore say, “See—the Bible is full of mistakes!” and choose to reject it entirely as being untrustworthy. However, those who trust God have no problem harmonizing the Gospels. There is no contradiction if the sign simply said, “This is Jesus of Nazareth the King of the Jews.” The godly base their confidence on two truths: 1) “all Scripture is given by inspiration of God” (2 Timothy 3:16); and 2) an elementary rule of Scripture is that God has deliberately included seeming contradictions in His Word to “snare” the proud. He has “hidden” things from the “wise and prudent” and “revealed them to babes” (Luke 10:21), purposely choosing foolish things to confound the wise (1 Corinthians 1:27).
On this message board we do believe that the entire bible is 100% accurate and it is the inerrant Word of God. This is not up for debate and it will not be debated on this message board.
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zen
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Hello all!
I am new here. I have been studying the scriptures for a few years now and would like to talk with others who are seriously interested in the Bible. I have posted on other non-Christian based message boards and started some really interesting discussions on Jesus and the bible, but I would like to talk with other Christians about some more detailed topics.
Often I wonder, for example, what people who say they believe the entire bible is 100% accurate and the inerrant Word of God really mean and what they think about certain contradictory passages of the bible.
I believe that the bible was written by men, albeit men often inspired by God, and should be read as such. I am wary of worshipping false idols--including a book. I am not saying the bible is a false idol-- i find it very inspiring and instructive-- but I don't want to stray from Jesus' teachings and the Holy Spirit, which are my "touch stones" if you know what i mean.
I consider myself a follower of Jesus and believe that the Holy Spirit is present to guide me in living Jesus' message of love, that is why i find it hard to believe, for example, that:
Any child who curses his parents should be put to death. Lev. 20:9
People who practice other religions or worship other gods should be executed. Num: 25:1-5
Women should not speak in church. 1 Cor. 14:34,35
Slavery is acceptable, and it's o.k. to beat a slave (as long he or she remains alive for a day or two after the beating and isn't killed outright). Exodus 21:21
These directives--and I could give many more examples-- are directly oppossed to what Jesus taught. For example:
quote:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Matt. 22:39
quote:
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another
John 13:34,35
quote:
Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you.
Luke 6:27
And women seemed to have been close followers of Jesus-- playing an important role in his ministry. See, for just one example: Matt: 28:1-10
Why, after his crucifixion, should they be excluded from the ministry?
These are just a few of the first thoughts that come to mind on this topic. I hope my words are taken in the spirit in which they are given.
I begin this discussion in the spirit of love and await your honest reply.
God bless and keep you.
Posts: 10 | From: michigan | Registered: Apr 2006
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