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Topic: The Road Well Traveled... its how we got here...But is it the road that Jesus is on?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Of course HisGrace. You must be correct. I should have thought of that.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HFHS of HG- Paul was born a Pharisee;
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You did really say that Paul was born a Pharisee: "Paul was born a Pharisee. We all are born as sinners, including Paul - saved by grace."
HG: People are not born Pharisee. Paul was born Hebrew,
On second thought, Pharisee was a sect, so Paul would have been born into his father's Jewish sect. Naturally he would have learnt all of their tenets as he was growing up. He spoke Hebrew.
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HisGrace
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Yes, you did say possibly. Here is your statement: "(Possibly this scripture could be referring to Aquila with the shorn head.)" Then when shone that gramatically the word shorn applies to Paul, you said:"We may say there go Mary and John, who has a new car, meaning John. I am not saying that Aquila is the one who had his head shaved, but I question this statment because it is the only 8-letter blurb in the Bible that would indicate that Paul did have his head shaved, if it were true. He emulated the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus never took any such vow, and I don't see anywhere else in the Bible that Paul took any vows."
If Paul did not shave his head as you have stated her, that only leaves Aquila or Priscilla. HG. [b]I would say that it was pretty accurate based on this post quoted right here that your view was that Aquila shaved his head.
For goodness sake why is this such an issue HFHS. On March 13th I said."(Possibly this scripture could be referring to Aquila with the shorn head.)"
Notice how it is a passing remark done in brackets.
You have the view that I believe that Aquila had his head shorn, but on March 16th I made the remark -
"~ Possibly Paul did take a vow, but I still don't see it as a Nazarite vow, if he did indeed shave his head on the purification ceremony. It perhaps was likened to such a Nazarite ceremony, but the vow was for a very brief period of seven days."
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quote:by HFHS
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The Sadducees were agnostics.
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HG says: HFHS, this doesn't take too much of a stretch. They didn't believe in the resurrection, spirits or angels. The dictionary describes them as deists and skeptics of their time.
HFHS SAYS: There was no stretch to it you point blank said that the Sadducee were agnostic: "being born a Pharisee, he believed in angels, spirits and the resurrection of the dead, as opposed to the Sadducees, as agnostics, didn't believe in any of this."
ag·nos·tic [ ag nóstik ] (plural ag·nos·tics)
noun
Definitions:
1. somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
The Sadducees were Diests HG they were not agnostics.
Deist - noun: a person who believes that God created the universe and then abandoned it
quote:
quote:By HFHS
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HFHS of HG- Paul was born a Pharisee;
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His Grace says: Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
You did really say that Paul was born a Pharisee: "Paul was born a Pharisee. We all are born as sinners, including Paul - saved by grace."
Pharisees were sinners. We are all born sinners and we are likened to Pharisees before conversion.
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HG: People are not born Pharisee. Paul was born Hebrew, He studied to become a Pharisee.
Paul was a Jew - he spoke Hebrew.
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quote:
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From HFHS of HG- Jesus did not criticise the Pharisee for following the oral traditions that were apostate but for following the letter of the law, which he had come to abolish;
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HG says:I am not too sure what you mean by this, but I have only quoted laws that were given to Moses, not just traditions.
Response. This began when you posted a thread that talked about how meticulously the Pharisee followed the Law "They were extremely accurate and minute in all matters appertaining to the law of Moses " You then go on to say that Jesus Admonished them, giving the impression that Jesus was admonishing them for meticulously following the law.
Then I posted an example that showed the kinds of things that Jesus was admonishing them for the things that they added to the law. Jesus was not admnishing them for following the law. But you did not agree with this.
I don't how you interpret what I said, but simply put Jesus admonished them for being so legalist.
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by HFH:quote:
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The Nazarites did not shave their heads....a crystal clear well established fact;
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HG says:My words have been twisted.
No HisGrace your words have not been twisted by me. Here are your words: "It has been well established that the Nazarites didn't cut their hair."
This is very true. I have said different times that they only cut their after they finished their term of service, which is clearly stated in Numbers 6:5, and is conveniently left out in your comments.
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quote:
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From HFHS of HG - After Christ had come, The Holy Spirit, through Paul preaches against the Torah, which is become old and legalistic. And, now we have Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount, before the cross, not expounding upon the 10 commandments, but making a new covenant and abolishing the 10 commandments and replacing them with new ones.
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This statement is completely untrue. How many times have I tried to make it clear that Jesus came to fulfill the 10 Commandments. You have said yourself that the laws changed after Jesus came. Not abolished - but changed. The 10 Commandments have been enhanced to be more fully complete.
HisGrace: in this thread you have said abolished:
quote:
You will recall that I also quoted this scripture. Let's take a look at it. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the Ten Commandments as follows:
Matthew 5:21 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.
~New covenant- Vrs. 22 But I say if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment. If you say to your friend,'You idiot" (hmmmmm - interesting) you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Matthew 5: 27 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery".
~New Covenant- Vrs. 28 But I say anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:31 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce."
~New Covenant -Vrs.32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful,causes here to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divrced woman commits adultery.
~Old abolished laws -
Matthew 5:33 Again you have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not break your vows, you must carry out the vows you have made to the Lord."
THIS HAS BEEN ABOISHED - Vrs. 34 But I say, don't make any vows. If you say. 'By heaven'. it is a sacred vow because heaven is God's throne. And if you say. "By the earth!" it is a sacred vow because the earth is his footstool. And don't swear, 'By Jerusalem,' for Jerusalem is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:38,39 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'If you heard that the law of Moses says, 'If an eye is injured, injured the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.
THIS HAS BEEN ABOLISHED - Vrs. 39 But I say, don't resist an evil person. If you are slapped on the right cheek turn the other too.
Matthew 5:43 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighor and hate your enemy
THAT HAS BEEN ABOLISHED - Vrs.44 But I say, love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven.
I have to say that here, after re-reading this, I did misunderstand your point. I did not understand tht you were saying he changed the 10 commandments and abolished what you see as the old laws. I do apologize for not clearly understanding that. Still you do error because this is the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is expounding on the commandments and Jesus did not distinguish between the 10 comandments and the rest of the law of Moses. Jesus understood that the "old Law" as you call it was an exposition of the commandments with the addition of the laws tht pertained to the priesthood and the temple service, as well as all else given to moses by God in the form of His commands and statutes. [/QUOTE]
I stand by quotes regarding Matthew 5. Notice carefully that I didn't say that anything was abolished from the 10 Commandments.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
Now I will tell you what I really said -
quote by HFHS:
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Paul never took a Nazarite vow;
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Documentation: "He emulated the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus never took any such vow, and I don't see anywhere else in the Bible that Paul took any vows." HG
quote:
HFHS, in one of my first comments I said that possibly Aguilla could be the one who had his head shorn. Upon further study,I did say that it most likely could have been Paul, who took a vow for seven days; however, not long to grow long hair for a sacrifice
quote:by HFHS
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Aquilla shorn his head;
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Yes, you did say possibly. Here is your statement: "(Possibly this scripture could be referring to Aquila with the shorn head.)" Then when shone that gramatically the word shorn applies to Paul, you said:"We may say there go Mary and John, who has a new car, meaning John. I am not saying that Aquila is the one who had his head shaved, but I question this statment because it is the only 8-letter blurb in the Bible that would indicate that Paul did have his head shaved, if it were true. He emulated the teachings of Jesus, and Jesus never took any such vow, and I don't see anywhere else in the Bible that Paul took any vows."
If Paul did not shave his head as you have stated her, that only leaves Aquila or Priscilla. HG. I would say that it was pretty accurate based on this post quoted right here that your view was that Aquila shaved his head.
quote:
quote:by HFHS
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The Sadducees were agnostics.
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HG says: HFHS, this doesn't take too much of a stretch. They didn't believe in the resurrection, spirits or angels. The dictionary describes them as deists and skeptics of their time.
HFHS SAYS: There was no stretch to it you point blank said that the Sadducee were agnostic: "being born a Pharisee, he believed in angels, spirits and the resurrection of the dead, as opposed to the Sadducees, as agnostics, didn't believe in any of this."
ag·nos·tic [ ag nóstik ] (plural ag·nos·tics)
noun
Definitions:
1. somebody denying God's existence is provable: somebody who believes that it is impossible to know whether or not God exists
The Sadducees were Diests HG they were not agnostics.
quote:
quote:By HFHS
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HFHS of HG- Paul was born a Pharisee;
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His Grace says: Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
You did really say that Paul was born a Pharisee: "Paul was born a Pharisee. We all are born as sinners, including Paul - saved by grace."
HG: People are not born Pharisee. Paul was born Hebrew, He studied to become a Pharisee.
quote:
quote:
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From HFHS of HG- Jesus did not criticise the Pharisee for following the oral traditions that were apostate but for following the letter of the law, which he had come to abolish;
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HG says:I am not too sure what you mean by this, but I have only quoted laws that were given to Moses, not just traditions.
Response. This began when you posted a thread that talked about how meticulously the Pharisee followed the Law "They were extremely accurate and minute in all matters appertaining to the law of Moses " You then go on to say that Jesus Admonished them, giving the impression that Jesus was admonishing them for meticulously following the law.
Then I posted an example that showed the kinds of things that Jesus was admonishing them for the things that they added to the law. Jesus was not admnishing them for following the law. But you did not agree with this.
quote:
by HFH:quote:
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The Nazarites did not shave their heads....a crystal clear well established fact;
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HG says:My words have been twisted.
No HisGrace your words have not been twisted by me. Here are your words: "It has been well established that the Nazarites didn't cut their hair."
quote:
quote:
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From HFHS of HG - After Christ had come, The Holy Spirit, through Paul preaches against the Torah, which is become old and legalistic. And, now we have Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount, before the cross, not expounding upon the 10 commandments, but making a new covenant and abolishing the 10 commandments and replacing them with new ones.
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This statement is completely untrue. How many times have I tried to make it clear that Jesus came to fulfill the 10 Commandments. You have said yourself that the laws changed after Jesus came. Not abolished - but changed. The 10 Commandments have been enhanced to be more fully complete.
HisGrace: in this thread you have said abolished:
quote:
You will recall that I also quoted this scripture. Let's take a look at it. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the Ten Commandments as follows:
Matthew 5:21 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.
~New covenant- Vrs. 22 But I say if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment. If you say to your friend,'You idiot" (hmmmmm - interesting) you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Matthew 5: 27 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery".
~New Covenant- Vrs. 28 But I say anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:31 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce."
~New Covenant -Vrs.32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful,causes here to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divrced woman commits adultery.
~Old abolished laws -
Matthew 5:33 Again you have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not break your vows, you must carry out the vows you have made to the Lord."
THIS HAS BEEN ABOISHED - Vrs. 34 But I say, don't make any vows. If you say. 'By heaven'. it is a sacred vow because heaven is God's throne. And if you say. "By the earth!" it is a sacred vow because the earth is his footstool. And don't swear, 'By Jerusalem,' for Jerusalem is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:38,39 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'If you heard that the law of Moses says, 'If an eye is injured, injured the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.
THIS HAS BEEN ABOLISHED - Vrs. 39 But I say, don't resist an evil person. If you are slapped on the right cheek turn the other too.
Matthew 5:43 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighor and hate your enemy
THAT HAS BEEN ABOLISHED - Vrs.44 But I say, love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven.
I have to say that here, after re-reading this, I did misunderstand your point. I did not understand tht you were saying he changed the 10 commandments and abolished what you see as the old laws. I do apologize for not clearly understanding that. Still you do error because this is the Sermon on the Mount and Jesus is expounding on the commandments and Jesus did not distinguish between the 10 comandments and the rest of the law of Moses. Jesus understood that the "old Law" as you call it was an exposition of the commandments with the addition of the laws tht pertained to the priesthood and the temple service, as well as all else given to moses by God in the form of His commands and statutes.
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HisGrace
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Now I will tell you what I really said -
quote:
Paul never took a Nazarite vow;
HFHS, show me where it says for sure in the Bible that Paul took a Nazarite vow, not from some commentary. Paul was a Nazarene.
quote:
Aquilla shorn his head;
HFHS, in one of my first comments I said that possibly Aguilla could be the one who had his head shorn. Upon further study,I did say that it most likely could have been Paul, who took a vow for seven days; however, not long to grow long hair for a sacrifice. quote:
The Sadducees were agnostics.
HFHS, this doesn't take too much of a stretch. They didn't believe in the resurrection, spirits or angels. The dictionary describes them as deists and skeptics of their time. quote:
HFHS of HG- Paul was born a Pharisee;
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. quote:
From HFHS of HG- Jesus did not criticise the Pharisee for following the oral traditions that were apostate but for following the letter of the law, which he had come to abolish;
I am not too sure what you mean by this, but I have only quoted laws that were given to Moses, not just traditions. quote:
The Nazarites did not shave their heads....a crystal clear well established fact;
My words have been twisted. Yes indeed they shaved their heads, only after they had completed their vow of service. The scriptures clearly state that.
Numbers 6:5 All the days of the vow of his separation there SHALL NO RAZOR COME UPON HIS HEAD UNTIL THE DAYS BE FULFILLED in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow
quote:
From HFHS of HG - After Christ had come, The Holy Spirit, through Paul preaches against the Torah, which is become old and legalistic. And, now we have Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount, before the cross, not expounding upon the 10 commandments, but making a new covenant and abolishing the 10 commandments and replacing them with new ones.
This statement is completely untrue. How many times have I tried to make it clear that Jesus came to fulfill the 10 Commandments. You have said yourself that the laws changed after Jesus came. Not abolished - but changed. The 10 Commandments have been enhanced to be more fully complete.
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB] Wow, is this more of the Bible according to HisGrace? I always thought that the Sermon on the Mount was Jesus' expostion on the 10 comandments that the people would understand the Spirit as well as the letter of the Law. Now you tell me that this is not so, but that what we have here is the New Covenant being cut at the sermon on the mount with the general public and before HIS death! Amazing. I never would have dreamed that.
Let me recap just to make sure that I am keeping up.
Paul never took a Nazarite vow; Aquilla shorn his head; The Sadducees were agnostics. Paul was born a Pharisee; Jesus did not criticise the Pharisee for following the oral traditions that were apostate but for following the letter of the law, which he had come to abolish; The Nazarites did not shave their heads....a crystal clear well established fact;After Christ had come, The Holy Spirit, through Paul preaches against the Torah, which is become old and legalistic. And, now we have Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount, before the cross, not expounding upon the 10 commandments, but making a new covenant and abolishing the 10 commandments and replacing them with new ones.
QB]
HFHS,
Me thinks this thread is a perfect example of why the bible version that we use and the teachers that we listen to are so important.
Proof postive of how the bible can be turned upside down and twisted into a pretzel. Even the Sermon on the Mount gets warped. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Wow, is this more of the Bible according to HisGrace? I always thought that the Sermon on the Mount was Jesus' expostion on the 10 comandments that the people would understand the Spirit as well as the letter of the Law. Now you tell me that this is not so, but that what we have here is the New Covenant being cut at the sermon on the mount with the general public and before HIS death! Amazing. I never would have dreamed that.
Let me recap just to make sure that I am keeping up.
Paul never took a Nazarite vow; Aquilla shorn his head; The Sadducees were agnostics. Paul was born a Pharisee; Jesus did not criticise the Pharisee for following the oral traditions that were apostate but for following the letter of the law, which he had come to abolish; The Nazarites did not shave their heads....a crystal clear well established fact;After Christ had come, The Holy Spirit, through Paul preaches against the Torah, which is become old and legalistic. And, now we have Jesus at the Sermon on the Mount, before the cross, not expounding upon the 10 commandments, but making a new covenant and abolishing the 10 commandments and replacing them with new ones.
![[1zhelp]](graemlins/1zhelp.gif) An my wild imagination kills you! ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Compare the Bible according to HisGrace to the Bible according to God:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
You will recall that I also quoted this scripture. Let's take a look at it. Jesus came to fulfill the law of the Ten Commandments as follows:
Matthew 5:21 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not murder. If you commit murder, you are subject to judgment.
~New covenant- Vrs. 22 But I say if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment. If you say to your friend,'You idiot" (hmmmmm - interesting) you are in danger of being brought before the court. And if you curse someone you are in danger of the fires of hell.
Matthew 5: 27 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery".
~New Covenant- Vrs. 28 But I say anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Matthew 5:31 You have heard that the law of Moses says, "A man can divorce his wife by merely giving her a letter of divorce."
~New Covenant -Vrs.32 But I say that a man who divorces his wife, unless she has been unfaithful,causes here to commit adultery. And anyone who marries a divrced woman commits adultery.
~Old abolished laws -
Matthew 5:33 Again you have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not break your vows, you must carry out the vows you have made to the Lord."
THIS HAS BEEN ABOISHED - Vrs. 34 But I say, don't make any vows. If you say. 'By heaven'. it is a sacred vow because heaven is God's throne. And if you say. "By the earth!" it is a sacred vow because the earth is his footstool. And don't swear, 'By Jerusalem,' for Jerusalem is the city of the great King.
Matthew 5:38,39 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'If you heard that the law of Moses says, 'If an eye is injured, injured the eye of the person who did it. If a tooth gets knocked out, knock out the tooth of the person who did it.
THIS HAS BEEN ABOLISHED - Vrs. 39 But I say, don't resist an evil person. If you are slapped on the right cheek turn the other too.
Matthew 5:43 You have heard that the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighor and hate your enemy
THAT HAS BEEN ABOLISHED - Vrs.44 But I say, love your enemies. Pray for those who persecute you. In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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More of the Bible according to HisGrace: "Jesus abolished the old law by paying the price for our sins."
No Hisgrace: First of all the law was never given to the Gentile. The gentile was damned without the law. He abolished the enmity between Jew and Gentile and between God and man that the commandments created; he abolished the curse of the law and he abolished death which was the sting of sin. He abolished your bondage to sin in the flesh.
Compare the Bible according to HisGrace to the Bible according to God:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Romans 4:15 But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
Is that what Paul said?
Is that what Paul was teaching? Is that what God told the people that he gave the law to in the first place?
Was God making a bad joke? Is God maniacle? Were the people really supposed to try and obey only to be punished and not blessed?
Is the only way to avoid breaking the law to have no law to break?
Has God somehow changed that the God of Moses that gave the law is not the God of Paul?
If the only way to avoid breaking the law was to have no law then why were any ever blessed who were under the law?
But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
How many Christians have read this and believed this to be what Paul was teaching… or worse what God hath said? Is it any wonder that in churches all across this nation you can find Christians who will tell you that the Law is something to be despised and avoided.
"The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!" That's exactly what Paul said. We are not supposed to live by the old Levitical laws, because they are under a law of condemnation, but we are supposed to live by faith.
As you have said, Romans 4:16 goes on to say"So that's why faith is the key! God's promise is given to us as a free gift. And we are certain to receive it, whether or not we follow Jewish customs, if we have faith like Abraham's.
You may think it is foolish to forget about God's laws and ask. " What about the Ten Commandments?" Jesus fulfilled that law in a new way in Matthew 5. "What about the moral laws cited in Leviticus?" Paul preached about those issues in the Epistles, fulfilled under the new laws of love. We are supposed to live by the new covenant and leave all of the old radical laws behind.
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NO! It is not that the law is gone! It is that the penalty for transgressing the law is paid. We are free from the curse of the Law; we are free from the penalty of the Law because Christ paid that price… and this leaves us FREE to serve God without having to focus on the possibility of failure that our whole being body soul and Spirit can be focused on God…where it belongs.
Jesus abolished the old law by paying the price for our sins.
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Furthermore, God was not concerned with man’s avoidance of breaking the law!
![[Confused]](confused.gif) Lev. 26:14,15 However, if you do not listen to me or obey my commands. and if you break my covenant by rejecting my laws and treating my regulations with contempt, I will punish you.
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Has God somehow changed that the God of Moses that gave the law is not the God of Paul?
Jesus and the cross made the difference for the God of Paul.
Jesus commanded in Matthew 5:17 Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them.
He was speaking about the Ten Commandments, because he proceeded to explain the commandments under the new covenant of love in his Sermon on the Mount. e.g. -
Matthew 5: 21,22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, "Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:"
But I say unto you,"That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
quote:
KJV Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Literal Greek: Rom 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither is transgression.
The law do work wrath. Wrath is punishment. he could also see God’s goodness and God’s provision and mercy and grace. And seeing both his sin and God’s mercy and grace, man could chose life, blessing and not cursing.
What is the Law? It is the word of God. The Law given to Moses was the word of God etched on tablets of Stone. Spirit and Letter.
2.) The Law is NOT Jewish customs! The Law was, is and always will be the word of God. Jewish Customs are the things that man added to the law. This things bound men to a law that God did not write.
Instructions given to Moses by God himself under the Old Levitical Law -
Leviticus 1:1,2 The Lord called to Moses from the Tabernacle, and said to him. Give the followng instructions to the Israelietes --
Then God proceeds to give laws for the next 27 chapters, making pretty stiff judgment upon them if they disobeyed.
For disobedience Lev. 26: 14 However, if you do not listen to me or obey my commands, and if you break my covenent of rejecting my laws, and treating my regulations with contempt, I will punish you.
You will suffer from sudden terrors, with wasting diseases, and with burning fevers, causing your eyes to fail and your life to ebb away. You will plant your crops in vain because your enemies will eat them. I will turn against you, and you will be defeated by your enemies.
They will rule over you, and you will run even when one is chasing you.
~And it doesn't end there - finally God says in verse 46 "These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses."
What changed - Jesus changed it all, but he still left us with instructions to follow the Ten Commandments, as in Matthew 5.
The old laws of wrath is why Paul says "Romans 7:4-6 So this is the point: The law no longer holds you in its power, because you died to its power when you died with Christ on the cross.
And now you are united with the one who When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced sinful deeds, resulting in death.
But now we have been released from the law, for we died with Christ, and we are no longer captive to its power. Now we can really serve God, not in the old way by obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way, by the Spirit. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I have tried to teach my children that what ever place it is that you find your self on any given day… that place is a result of your decisions. I wanted them to understand that at any given moment in their lives if they found their place to be something less than desirable, all they had to do was look back and see how they got there. My hope was that this thinking would cause them to take responsibility for their actions and to make even small and seemingly insignificant decisions wisely. Buying a latte today might result in not having electricity at the end of the month if the decision to buy a latte occurred too many times in the month. Failing a class does not just happen; it is a serious of decisions that lead to an “F” at the end of a semester and some of those decisions might have nothing to do with school. The decision to eat pizza, leads to the one to stay out too late, which leads to the one to sleep in to late, which leads to missing the class… and so on and so on.
Recently, I had been praying and talking to God about how the situation in the world and in the church seems so distressing at times. The world seems increasing evil and chaotic and the professing church… ughhhhhh! I know that these things must come and I know that you are in control, Father God, but how? How have we come to this place??? How is it that people can love you and praise your name and pray and go to church on Sunday and study your word on Monday and Tuesday and go to church on Wednesday and yet live so contrary to the word, believe things so contrary to the word, say things so contrary to the word? How can it be that there will be in the last days believers that are neither hot nor cold? How God, did we get here?
This was the jest of my conversation. The answer?
Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
So I went and I read Hosea chapter four and surely to me it did like the world looks today. But still… how? How did Israel get there? How did we get here?
The answer is in Hosea 4, but I did not see it so clearly until I was reading in another place and I ran across this interpretation of Romans 4:15.
Romans 4:15 But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
Is that what Paul said?
I have a 6 year old grandson and if you told him that trying to obey the law would bring punishment on him, I can tell you that he at 6 years old would know that this means that trying to obey the law is something to be avoided!
Is that what Paul was teaching? Is that what God told the people that he gave the law to in the first place? That just does not line up with the word of God here in Deuteronomy:
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
Was God making a bad joke? Is God maniacle? Were the people really supposed to try and obey only to be punished and not blessed?
Is the only way to avoid breaking the law to have no law to break?
Has God somehow changed that the God of Moses that gave the law is not the God of Paul?
If the only way to avoid breaking the law was to have no law then why were any ever blessed who were under the law?
But the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)
How many Christians have read this and believed this to be what Paul was teaching… or worse what God hath said? Is it any wonder that in churches all across this nation you can find Christians who will tell you that the Law is something to be despised and avoided.
God says: Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
The Law does not bring wrath to those who try to obey it!!!!
The Law brings the knowledge of sin, Romans 3:20; God has not changed! The law brought knowledge of sin to the people in the desert, and it brings knowledge of sin today. And we need to have knowledge of sin.
What about this lie: The only way to avoid breaking the law is not to have no law.
The Bible says transgression (breaking) the Law is sin. Yet, the whole world was in sin, though the whole world was not given the law!
Why does Paul say that : “for where no law is, there is no transgression.”? Does he say this so that you will believe that the only way to obey the law is to have no law? Is that what Jesus taught? Did the blood of Jesus obliterate the law?
NO! It is not that the law is gone! It is that the penalty for transgressing the law is paid. We are free from the curse of the Law; we are free from the penalty of the Law because Christ paid that price… and this leaves us FREE to serve God without having to focus on the possibility of failure that our whole being body soul and Spirit can be focused on God…where it belongs.
Furthermore, God was not concerned with man’s avoidance of breaking the law!
God was and is this day concerned with man’s OBEDIENCE. The command does not say “Thou shalt avoid breaking my law.” The command says “thou shalt obey the Lord your God.”
Man today obeys God’s law, the same way men have obeyed God’s law since the day it was given… by faith which is demonstrated in works. Faith without works is DEAD faith and DEAD FAITH is not saving faith.
Notice this little word ”will” in this scripture: Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
A curse if you WILL not obey. It does not say DO not obey… it says WILL not obey. God is concerned with the “will”.
Those who were blessed under the law are those who “willed” to obey and demonstrated it with their “works” of following the instructions in faith. Sometimes they failed in letter, but the “will” to obey was there and demonstrated by their effort and God had mercy and granted grace and accounted their faithful willingness, as righteousness!
The only way to avoid breaking the law was and is today to trust God in faith believing that he is and that he is a rewarder of those who seek HIM and Believe HIM and will to obey HIM.
Now, lets look at what Paul was teaching:
KJV Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Literal Greek: Rom 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither is transgression.
The law do work wrath. Wrath is punishment. Punishment is given to those who disobey , not as this perversion of the word says “to those who try to obey”. Trying to obey indicates a desire to please God; it indicates a desire to obey. We only try to do what we will to do.
The law does work punishment. What is “work”?
Work is the Greek word….. katergazomai; it means to finish; to accomplish. The Law brings God’s punishment to finish. How? By bringing knowledge of sin.
God is a just God. And being just, God does not punish the disobedient without their knowing that they are disobedient… so the law, brings the knowledge of sin that when you sin, you know you have sinned and you know the wages of sin. That is always been what the law set out to do.
It set out to show man his sinfulness; because when man could see his sinfulness he could also see God’s goodness and God’s provision and mercy and grace. And seeing both his sin and God’s mercy and grace, man could chose life, blessing and not cursing.
All of those things, God’s goodness, mercy, grace, provision, were present in the law until the Day that Christ, who is all of those things, was manifest in the flesh and no more hidden in the Law.
What is the Law? It is the word of God. The Law given to Moses was the word of God etched on tablets of Stone. Spirit and Letter.
Jesus did not destroy the law; Jesus completed the law, fulfilled it so that the law brought knowledge of sin, but God brought just judgment, and redemption.
Oh, Saints! Can you see this is how we got here? We have been deceived as man has subtly changed the word of God to make it a lie.
This is a lie; it is not a prescription for holiness or walking in the spirit in subjection to the will of God; it is a prescription written by the devil himself for anarchy: “the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!)”
God says: Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
Lets look at one more verse:
Roman’s 4:16 So that's why faith is the key! God's promise is given to us as a free gift. And we are certain to receive it, whether or not we follow Jewish customs, if we have faith like Abraham's. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.
There are a couple of points I need to make here:
1) Faith is the key because the only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law???
NO! Faith is the key because God has ALWAYS given grace to the faithful. The Hebrew people demonstrated faith by the works they did to obey the Law; the Christian people demonstrate faith by presenting our bodies as living sacrifices to HIM. Bringing our every thought into subjection, being not conformed to the world but transformed by the renewing of our minds which are washed in the word! Faith is an active word. If we believe then we will do, because HE is doing in us!
2.) The Law is NOT Jewish customs! The Law was, is and always will be the word of God. Jewish Customs are the things that man added to the law. This things bound men to a law that God did not write.
3.) the 613 mitvahs of the Levitical Law were not Jewish Customs!!! They were the words of God given to a people to expound upon the Law that was given to Moses on tablets of stone, and also to provide the people with clear instructions for the ministering of the priesthood and the service in the Temple; They were given because God loved the people and wanted them to prosper and not be destroyed when they came into his presence. The only reason that we are free of the Levitical Law is that we have no Levitical Priesthood and for no other reason! The Law of the Levitical Priesthood was changed when the Priesthood changed to the order of Melchizedek and was no longer held by the Levite Priests.
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Note, the law was changed, not destroyed. Changed. We no longer sacrifice animals for Jesus has sacrificed once and for all; we now sacrifice our bodies living. The Law changed not destroyed!
So what does God’s word say?
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
If we do not try to destroy the Law by rewriting God’s words and making them to be Jewish Customs and we look at what Paul really said under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we see that the promise (was a promise of faith) was sure to ALL seed (by Grace), both those under the law and those who were like Abraham (who was before the law).
This tells us that the Law never ever saved any, but that the promises belong both to those who were under the law, and to us who never had the law… because the promises were ALWAYS promises that were made to the Faithful and were given by HIS grace!!!
Amos prophesied a coming “famine” of the word of God:
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
When I see things like this (the law brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!) ) called the word of God, it seems to me that the ground is getting pretty dry and hard and I can surely see how we have gotten to where we are today.
God says: Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
Jesus said: Mat 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Just so you make no mistake about where we are today, take a look:
In a recent Barna Poll, only one out of every seven adults (15%) placed their faith in God at the top of their priority list. To make an apples-to-apples comparison, the survey isolated those who attend Protestant churches and found that even among that segment of adults, not quite one out of every four (23%) named their faith in God as their top priority in life.
In a related survey given to pastors, 54% evaluated the spiritual health of their congregations on just one criteria… that criteria was church-related volunteer activity or ministry effort. Only two other criteria – church attendance and some type of life change experience (usually meaning that a person has made a first-time commitment to Jesus Christ as their savior) were named as important criteria by more than one out of every seven pastors. (Each of these criteria was listed by 45% of all pastors.) Other top-rated standards were whether congregants were involved in evangelism (13%), how much new information or knowledge about Christianity the people received (10%), how much money was donated to the church (10%), and the comments made by congregants to the pastor (10%).
Evangelism is not a priority in most churches, so the fact that most churched adults do not verbally share the gospel in a given year is not deemed problematic. Only one out of every eight churches bother to evaluate how many of their congregants are sharing their faith in Christ with non-believers
When you consider that today 80,000 people in the 10/40 window will die never having known the name of Jesus or having heard the Gospel, and knowing that 97% of the unreached people of the world live in this area, I can see how Jesus would find a church lukewarm, naked, miserable, and wretched and yet thinking that they had need of nothing.
In this survey, when pastors described their notion of significant, faith-driven life change, the vast majority (more than four out five) focused on salvation but ignored issues related to lifestyle or spiritual maturity.
The fact that the lifestyle of most churched adults is essentially indistinguishable from that of unchurched people is not a concern for most churches; whether or not people have accepted Jesus Christ as their savior is the sole or primary indicator of “life transformation,” regardless of whether their life after such a decision produces spiritual fruit.
The problem with that is that if Jesus is truly the life of the believer, then that believer’s life will be a life that is changed and distinguishable from the lost because Jesus is unable to bear bad fruit; and being in the father, he must produce fruit and that fruit will come forth in the persons life… anything less is simply not possible.
In another survey, Barna discovered that the percentage of adults holding a biblical worldview has remained minimal and unchanged over the past three years, despite the widespread public debate about moral issues and the efforts of thousands of churches to enhance people’s moral convictions. Currently, only 5% of adults have a biblical worldview. The percentage varies among faith groups. About half of all evangelicals have such a perspective. Overall, 8% of Protestants possess that view, compared to less than one-half of one percent of Catholics.
This is where we are brothers and sisters and I believe that the way we got here was through the subtle deception of the enemy who has changed God’s word in such a way that we have thrown out the importance of the oracles of God or the portions of God’s word that prick us in the flesh and cause us to know what sin is, that we are Sinful, and that HE is Holy and Christ has reconciled us to HIS life that is Holy and we are to grow up in Christ and not try to bring Christ down into our filth.
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that cometh from God only?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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