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Topic: Talking with Mormons
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
so wparr, the only place we are NOT ALLOWED to witness is in our house?
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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wparr
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Member # 891
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posted
We are to win them over by our ongoing witness of The Power of God in our lives.
When we interact with them at work / business / social functions ect.. we aren't to treat them like the enemy (they aren't the enemy - just deceived) but show them the LOVE of Christ.
If you have one as a neighbor talk with them and find out what their struggles are, how their kids are doing, share your testimony.
Mormons and JWs are very legalistic, they need to see GRACE in action.
They need to see the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT displayed to them.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
brother wparr, upon closer examination I have to agree with you. I confess that I had not closely read the scriptures you quoted:
2 John 1:10-11 (King James Version)
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
I see what you are saying. I had always thought, kind of like WKUHilltopper, that I should try to learn my Bible better and try to evangelize them, "explain to them a better way", so to speak.
But in 2 John 1:10-11 above, the Lord clearly says to not even let them in my house once I perceive that someone is on purpose bringing a different doctrine, to not even let them in my house and to not even be nice to them.
hey, wparr, thanks for pointing this out to me; sorry that I didn't fully read it before, but then I'm trying to read/write on the CBBS inbetween work. So please don't be quite as "screamy" that I am being DISOBEDIENT and all that; hey, I got it; sorry it took me a bit but I learned something new.
Are you saying I'm not even supposed to try to convert Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, ever, anywhere? Or only when they come to my house? And why only at my house?
anyway, thanks again, that was a good one, wparr.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
"a wheel within a wheel, way up in the middle of the air"
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wparr
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So are suggesting BA to IGNORE what God tells us in His word?????
To be DISOBEDIENT because you don't know if you will have an oportunity to witness to them again????
If not then, then when?
If it concerns you about that person PRAY.
Pray that God will bring them across your path again.
Pray that God will bring OTHER good Christian witnesses into their day to day lives.
Pray that God will DRAW THEM unto Himself
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
(John 6:44)
Pray that God will open their eyes to see the TRUTH.
Mormons and JWs are more won to Christ by seeing the ongoing power of God working in someones life than by fighting them theologicaly as they come to your door.
If not then, when??
When you are LED to by the Holy Spirit (OH by the way, in case you didn't know this, The Holy Spirit will NEVER NEVER NVER violate God's Word in His leading, so if you desire to do it when they come a knocking - IT'S YOUR FLESH DESIRING IT NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT)
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
brother wparr writes quote:
I'm not saying don't try to reach mormons and jw, but not when they come knocking on your door bringing their false teachings from the enemy.
If not then, when? Shall I now race after them on my bicycle in a white shirt and black pants and a bicycle helmet, shall I speak to them when I catch up with them?
If not then, when, brother wparr? The trouble is, as WKUHilltopper says, he was caught off guard and and was unkempt at that hour and that is understandable. But knowledge of our Bible and where stuff is located is important. When I visited with Jehovah's Witnesses at their Kingdom Hall occasionally, there were surprised to see that how fast I could move about in my Bible and find things. They had been brainswashed to think that only Jehovah's Witnesses knew how to move fast through their Bible--they were surprised!
to get gack on Topic, wparr, if not then, when?
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA
"Everytime I feel the spirit moving in my heart, I will pray"
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WKUHilltopper
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
WKUHilltopper, if I may critique what happened in your encounter, I felt you were "way to abrupt".
No, I don't disagree with me being way too abrupt. I was caught off guard, house was a wreck, and personally unkept. That is primarily why I "hesistated", I guess.
They started walking away from me when I mentioned I believed Jesus is God. I guess they thought I was a waste of time since they were trying to convert me.
Once my wife got home, I did drive around the neighborhood looking for them, but never found them.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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shadowmaker
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Member # 3696
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posted
He probably didnt handle it exactly right but we all make mistakes. The thing you have to remember is they dont want to change and have be brainwashed into believeing they are right. So, you have to go at them from a kinder approach. IF they go on the defensive immediately, you dont stand a chance. The thing with them is some of what they teach is correct, they use the KJ version of the Bible, and they can give you verses to back up their belief. BUT some of it twisted, to mean something totally different. Thats how they convert people.
They dont believe Jesus is God, they dont believe in hell, they dont believe in the virgin birth, and they dont believe Jesus rose on the 3rd day. They believed you are "sealed" to other Mormons. And that THEY can get you into heaven by praying you in.
What you have to do, is plant that seed. Give them evidence to cast doubt on Mormonism.
Theres a JW girl that comes by here sometimes. It totally saddens me that such a sweet girl is totally lost.
But I learned quickly that if you do talk to Mormons or JW, you better be on your toes and have your armour of God on. And remember they are trained/brainwashed to confuse you and they are good at it.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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wparr
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Member # 891
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posted
BA it really doesn't matter one little bit what YOU think, but what God says thru His Word, which I showed.
I choose to follw what God says rather than what my sin tainted mind thinks and feels.
You choose to disobey God to follow your thinking and feelings, that's your choice.
I'm not saying don't try to reach mormons and jw, but not when they come knocking on yopur door bringing their false teachings from the enemy.
2 John 1:10-11
(10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
(11) for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
You want to participate in their EVIL deeds go for it, but I won't, and I will discourage others to also, as God makes it clear that we shouldn't.
He didn't tells us this just to waste space on thousands and thousand and thousands of Bibles, but for a reason.
It's all about O B E D I E N C E O B E D I E N C E
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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shadowmaker
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Member # 3696
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posted
A guy who works for me is a Mormon too. It s crazy some of the things they believe. He says he doesnt worry bout going to church bc his mom is a mormon too. He believes when he dies, his mother can "pray him into heaven". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
You have to be on your toes talking to them bc they can really twist scripture and have you confused. Heres a good site with alot of info.
http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm
I know how you feel, I wish I could get thru to him but I cant. But I did finally trip him up on some things and got him to thinking. Hoping I planted that seed.
Posts: 272 | Registered: Jul 2004
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BORN AGAIN
unregistered
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posted
I found the article on the Internet:
Introduction:
The LA Times reports that: "The sacred writings of many faiths make claims that might not stand up to scientific tests. But most faiths avoid conflict with scholarship either because their claims relate to events too far in the past to be tested or because they have reinterpreted their scriptural claims as metaphors, rather than assertions of literal fact.
For devout Mormons, however, neither of those defenses is available. The Book of Mormon, made public by Joseph Smith in 1830, is a cornerstone of church doctrine and is taken literally by the faithful. It teaches, among other things, that many American Indians are descendants of ancient Israelites who came to this continent 600 years before Christ -- a time period within the reach of modern archeology and genetics." 1
Not every statement in a holy book can be verified or disproved scientifically. For example, there is no archeological evidence that would prove the existence of most personalities described in the Bible prior to the time of King Solomon. Similarly, most of the events cannot be corroborated with hard evidence outside the Bible.
However, one teaching of the Book of Mormon is different. It teaches that three groups of ancient Hebrews came from Israel to the Americas -- the first in 2247 BCE. Their descendants separated into two nations, the Nephites and the Lamanites. Subsequently, all but the Lamanites died off.
The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are the principal ancestors of modern-day Native Americans. DNA, facial structure, and blood type studies appear to conflict with this belief. They demonstrate that the today's Natives descended from ancient people in Siberia.
If the Natives were descendents of Lamanites, then one would expect to find Middle Eastern genetic markers in the DNA, facial structures and blood factors of American Natives. None of these exist.
Christianity Today reports in a year 2004 book review that:
The Book of Mormon's "...account of pre-Christian journeys from the Middle East to the Americas and subsequent identification of North American indigenous populations with Israelite tribes was not uncommon among Joseph Smith's contemporaries."
Joseph Smith is the founder of the Mormon faith and is believed to have translated the text on golden plates to which he was directed by an angel.
"...none of the nearly 7,500 DNA-tested Native Americans shows any link to ancient Israel. More than 99 percent show an Asian heritage." 10
"...some scholars at the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS)...concede the links between Native Americans and Asians are strong, and that a Middle Eastern contribution to the gene pool hasn't been established" at this time.
John W. Welch, founder of FARMS said: "The DNA factor is just one more indication that people came from various places in the world. This is just one more piece in a very big and complicated and obscure archaeological and anthropological picture."
Daniel C. Peterson, editor of The FARMS Review, said: "The Book of Mormon never claimed to be an exclusive account of people of the Americas."
Simon G. Southerton, author of the book: "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church" 11 believes that several passages from the Book of Mormon and statements by Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS, show that the Israelite immigrants to the new world found an uninhabited world when they arrived.
He said: "In the entire 1,000-year period covered by the Book of Mormon, there is not one explicit reference to people outside the migratory groups that came from the Middle East." 10
The LDS web site states: "Recent attacks on the veracity of the Book of Mormon based on DNA are ill considered. Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin. The scientific issues relating to DNA, however, are numerous and complex." 12
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA by the
DNA Studies:
A number of investigators have used genetic and blood testing studies to show that Native Americans are related closely to the inhabitants of Siberia . However, Thomas W. Murphy, 35, chairperson of the anthropology department at Edmonds Community College in Lynnwood, WA went further. He was raised as a Mormon in southern Idaho, and has said that he is "not an active member of the local congregation, but I'm very active in the Mormon intellectual community." 2 He decided to examine whether DNA analysis would confirm that many, perhaps most, Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites. According to the LA Times, "He analyzed data collected by a multimillion-dollar 'molecular genealogy' project at Brigham Young [University] as well as other, similar projects that track ancestry from people worldwide via DNA in blood samples." Murphy concluded that over the last few thousand years, modern-day Jews and modern-day Native Americans do not share common ancestors. If they did, then genetic markers would be found in Natives identical to those in the descendents of ancient Hebrews. He concluded that: "the Book of Mormon is a piece of 19th century fiction. And that means that we have to acknowledge sometimes Joseph Smith lied." However, he believes that "the book might be fiction, but inspired as well."
He contributed a chapter in the anthology "American Apocrypha" in which he reported the results of his research. 3 The essay is taken from his doctoral dissertation at the University of Washington. He faced a church disciplinary council, scheduled for 2002-DEC-8, at which he might have been excommunicated for his beliefs -- probably be the first Mormon expelled for genetic research. 4 He concluded that: "the odds for staying in the church are overwhelming arrayed against me. The Mormon faith is going to survive one way or another. The Catholic Church survived Galileo, but they first had to admit they were wrong." (Galileo was condemned by the Roman Catholic Church in 1633 CE for claiming that the Earth orbits the sun -- a belief that the church has since embraced.)
Maxine Hanks, who was excommunicated in 1993 because of her feminist writings, also picked up on the Galileo theme by saying "Tom Murphy is the Galileo for Mormons." Michael Whiting, a DNA specialist and an assistant professor at the LDS's Brigham Young University said that Murphy's case marks "the first biological challenge" of Mormon scripture. He said that the comparison of Whiting to Galileo is "inappropriate...The difference is Galileo got the science right. I don't think Murphy has."
Murphy's supporters had planned a series of candlelight vigils on 2002-DEC-8 in as many as ten U.S. cities, including one outside the Mormon temple in Salt Lake City, UT. At the last minute, Murphy's heresy hearing was suspended indefinitely. Matthew Latimer, president of the Lynnwood LDS Stake, released a statement saying: "Decisions relating to spiritual welfare are a private matter between each member and his or her local church leader. Unfortunately, this matter has received significant media attention, and Mr. Murphy himself has stated publicly that my decision to hold a disciplinary council is emotionally very difficult for him. In light of these considerations, I think it is best not to proceed at this time."
Most of the vigils were cancelled, except for the one at church headquarters in Salt Lake City. According to the Associated Press: "In a Saturday letter to supporters, Murphy said the intent of that gathering was 'to bring attention to the racism and sexism in Mormon scripture and to object to homophobia and intellectual intimidation in the LDS Church.' " 4 In a written statement on 2002-DEC-7, he wrote: "The postponement of this disciplinary council is truly a victory for all those who favor an honest search for truth and are willing to speak out against the injustices of racism, sexism, homophobia, and anti-intellectualism." In an interview the following day, he said that he hopes that the postponement "means it's now OK to speak about the Book of Mormon as a work of 19th century fiction...And I am also hopeful that the church is willing to abandon its teaching that a dark skin is a curse from God" In 2005, he said that DNA research makes church leadership uncomfortable because it shows the Book of Mormon to be ''racist and factually wrong. The church has a long history of using disciplinary councils to intimidate scholars who shed light on uncomfortable truths.'' 13
Author's note: The LDS Church teaches that American Indians are descended from Lamanites who were "heathen descendants of ancient Israel." The Book of Mormon does not say that the dark skin of Native Americans is a curse from God. Rather, it is considered a mark which represents a curse from God on the ancestors of the Natives. Murphy believes that most Native Americans consider the claim to be negative.
Simon Southerton wrote a second book which uses DNA evidence to contradict the Book of Mormon's teachings. "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church," Referring to the LDS' teachings on the origin of Native Americans, he said: "We know from evidence that that's completely false. The church needs to modify its doctrine.'' His book, titled: "Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church," was published in 2004. He is a Mormon and was ordered to appear at a hearing before church leaders in Canberra, Australia on 2005-JUL-31. He was being charged with adultery. He suggests that church authorities have decided to try him on that charge rather than on apostasy because the former is easier to prove.
Tom Kimball, spokesperson for Signature Books, the publishers of Southerton's book, predicted that the author could be the seventh of their authors removed from church rolls. Previous authors have been chastised for taking positions on feminism, church history and philosophy. Southerton would be the first disciplined for scientific work. Kimball said: ''Especially if (the author) is an active Latter-day Saint, it has to make them think twice about how far they want to take it.' 13
In an Email sent to the Associated Press, Southerton revealed that he has been excommunicated by the LDS. Although he was originally charged with adultery, he was excommunicated for "having an inappropriate relationship with a woman." He has allegedly admitted to the relationship two years previously while he was separated from his wife. He and his wife have since reconciled. Jane Southerton testified in support of her husband. The church leaders indicated that they were not avoiding the "issue of apostasy and that the charge they were investigating was more important." Southerton explained in his Email: "I am now convinced that they were intent on avoiding a council on the charge of apostasy. I was clearly instructed before the meeting that if I attempted to talk about 'DNA' and my apostasy that the council would be immediately shut down and that it would be completed in my absence."
Ron Priddis, managing director of Signature Books noted that Southerton is the seventh of their authors to be excommunicated by the LDS for publishing a book that is critical of church beliefs. He called the decision "unfortunate for Simon and his family." He said: "We just wish there was a more open, healthier climate for the discussion of matters of science and religion."
The article in the Daily Herald "Central Utah's Newspaper" received 120 comments from readers about this story. 14
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BORN AGAIN
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I do not believe that for one minute, wparr. I think anyone can be saved by the power of God. WKUHilltopper, I have missed, yea wasted, opportunities to witness over which I flagelated myself for a little while.
This next part is off the top of my head, but I just read about it, it went something like this:
The Mormons are really shook up right now, because of DNA science. It was claimed by Joseph Smith who had presumably found the gold tablets that he was of Native American Indian descent or something like that, and DNA is proving it is not true.
The Mormons are also racist, and it was not until modern pressure came that they changed some of their "whitey only" language in their texts.
WKUHilltopper, if I may critique what happened in your encounter, I felt you were "way to abrupt". Unlike wparr, I think it IS possible to be sweet and kind and explaining the "scriptures more fully to them".
However, the prerequisite for that is that you know your Bible pretty well. I think we should always show Christian love, and to Mormons also. If we can persuade them, they are persuaded; if not, so be it.
God bless, BORN AGAIN in the USA
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WKUHilltopper
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You're probably right, Wparr. Probably would have been a waste of time, but it grieves me of the deception they live in.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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wparr
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Member # 891
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2 John 1:9-11
(9) Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.
(10) If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting;
(11) for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.
Many people think they can let the mormons and jehova witnesses in and they can convert them, but God tells us otherwise.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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WKUHilltopper
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Just about 30 minutes ago, had a couple of "kids" knocking on my door. They said they wanted to talk about God and I asked them if they were Mormons. They said yes. I said, "We don't have much to talk about, I believe Jesus Christ is Lord".
Well, one of them said "We believe in Jesus Christ" and I said, "But I believe Jesus is God". At that point they just kinda walked off. All I could say as they were walking off was "I hope you learn about the real Lord." They're probably trained to walk off anyway, but it saddened me that I couldn't get a lot out.
I hadn't even showered and was dressed like a bum. They caught me at a really bad time, but now thinking about it I should have had them come in and told them the truth. I went back outside about 20 minutes later (after I got dressed--was unshaven and in sweats!) and looked for them. No dice.
I should have been more agressive. I plan on driving around the block looking for them if my wife and oldest daughter ever comes back from shopping. I have my youngest daugther here with me.
I guess my question is: I don't know much about the Mormons other than they deny Christ is God. Anyone have a good site on the internet where I can educate myself on how to talk with the Mormons? My heart is breaking that these young souls could be lost.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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