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Topic: 1 John 5:6
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HisGrace
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posted
Some great comments folks - thanks.
I guess we could sum up the pearcing of Jesus' side by saying that the blood was for atonement and the water was for purification, or sanctification, as Bloodbought expresses it.
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Bloodbought
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
The blood justifies us and the word typified by the water sanctifies us.
Am I getting this right by saying that the blood represents his physical death as our sacrificial Lamb, and the water represents new spiritual life-giving waters that he is offering to us through his own resurrected life?
When the side of Christ was pierced there came out blood and water at the same time, not blood first and then water or vice versa, the blood and water were mingled together and this stream flowed after His death, but the analogy of the two birds shows that Christ needed to be dipped in His own blood and water before He could be released into the open and ascend up to heaven.
It seems to me that both the blood and the water represent the death of Christ as it took place on the authority of the word and both the blood and the water also represent cleansing since Christ took both back to heaven on the authority of the word.
We are born again on the authority of the word represented by the water on the merit of the shed blood and the Spirit bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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HisGrace
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
quote:
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
The blood justifies us and the word typified by the water sanctifies us.
Am I getting this right by saying that the blood represents his physical death as our sacrificial Lamb, and the water represents new spiritual life-giving waters that he is offering to us through his own resurrected life?
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Bloodbought
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quote:
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Some good points already made on this interesting subject.
Lev 14:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
3 And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be healed in the leper;
4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
5 And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6 As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7 And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.
Leprosy is a type of sin and in Leviticus 14 we see the cleansing of sin typified by the cleansing of the leper. Two clean birds were to be taken and one of them killed in an earthen vessel over running water and the live bird was to be dipped in the blood of the dead bird that was mingled with the water and released into the open field. The two birds have a double meaning; the dead bird represents the death of Christ and the live bird dep’t in the blood of the dead bird mingled with the water represents the resurrection of Christ, as he is released into the open heavens with his own blood.
I see the water as representing the word of God.
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
The blood justifies us and the word typified by the water sanctifies us.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Also... this is living water...not stagnant.. it is a flowing stream.
In the OT, the High Priest at Tabernacles poured living water on the altar. Christ is the High Priest of Tabernacles.
Christ is the rock from which living fresh life giving and sustaing water flowed in the desert wilderness, and at the Passover he said If any man thirst let him come to me.
There is so much beauty to see in this study and the other scriptures that speak of the water of life! This was indeed a great one!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Its just a picture - HG. Jesus died that we could be born again to life. Both the water and the blood that flowed from HIS pierced side were idicators of the death that he gave for us to live. Just as the first Adam' wife was taken from HIS side which God opened... the Bride of the 2nd Adam did also come from HIS side in a sense because out of his side came not a rib or a bone of flesh, but blood and water of HIS life given that we might also have life.
There is an allegorical picture there in addition to the physical real and tangible picture. That is what I was sharing.
quote:
I just read your last post HFHS; so no matter how we use it, water means cleansing?
Yes I think this is true in a lot of ways...
If we are buried with him in baptism, our old man is put away and we are raised anew. This is another way.
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HisGrace
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I don't why, but I seem to be having a mental block about this subject. Spiritually speaking, is being born by water and blood the same water and blood that flowed from Jesus' pierced side?
I just read your last post HFHS; so no matter how we use it, water means cleansing?
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Also.... the water is the word that washes clean
He takes away the sin of the world.
Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
The Blood - atones for the sin (pays the price)
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
The spirit seals us that is a testimony or witness that we are washed clean and our wage paid...
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
By the WORD-Water our soul is cleansed
By the Blood - our debt is paid
By the Spirit - our life is raised
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
very good for your first post, sister seekingGod; you made it a good one. I liked your version the best so far.
And sister HisGrace, thanks for asking this Topic question, I learned something new from this.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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seekingGod
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posted
quote:
1 John 5
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
not by water only?
This is my first real post here, so I will try to make it good.
I have heard the 'blood and water' to mean physical birth and also the piercing of Christ's side.
This is from the notes in my KJV study bible:
Water and blood:This is the water of Jesus' baptism, the blood of His atoning death. The Spirit gives assurance that the biblical message about Jesus is true.
This is how I understand it:
We are not saved by water baptism. We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and the water baptism is our outwardly show of our acceptance of Him.
He came to this earth, was baptized in water and shed His blood for our sins and the Holy Spirit gives witness of this. His blood on the cross was required for our salvation. Thus, He came not by water only, but by both the water and His Blood.
How was this for my first post? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Matthew 6:33
In Love and Prayer,
Jaime
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
Jesus came to the church in the wilderness by water that flowed from the rock that Moses struck and the rock was Christ:
quote:
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water
1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Jesus came in the flesh to the church in Roman Jerusalem by the blood:
quote:
1 John 5:6.............. and blood, even Jesus Christ
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
quote:
1 John 5:6..............not by water only, but by water and blood.
Jesus died on the cross and from his pierced side flowed the water of life and the blood. The water that flowed from his side was the water that was there from the giving of his life in the kind of death he died...as Drew posted above.
quote:
1 John 5:6.............. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
The NEW testament church was born out of this water of life and blood... and at Pentecost, the Spirit bore witness of that as HE decended upon the believers there and they were baptised by the Spirit.
This scripture should not be confused with this one where water refers to the birth by nature:
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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yahsway
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Thanks Drew, I meant to get that info on the post but you beat me to it. The main thing I was trying to say was that the work Yeshua did on the cross "was finished" as He stated before He gave up His spirit (died). Shalom
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Caretaker
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http://www.apu.edu/infocus/2002/03/crucifixion/
The difficulty surrounding exhalation leads to a slow form of suffocation. Carbon dioxide builds up in the blood, resulting in a high level of carbonic acid in the blood. The body responds instinctively, triggering the desire to breathe. At the same time, the heart beats faster to circulate available oxygen. The decreased oxygen (due to the difficulty in exhaling) causes damage to the tissues and the capillaries begin leaking watery fluid from the blood into the tissues. This results in a build-up of fluid around the heart (pericardial effusion) and lungs (pleural effusion). The collapsing lungs, failing heart, dehydration, and the inability to get sufficient oxygen to the tissues essentially suffocate the victim.5 The decreased oxygen also damages the heart itself (myocardial infarction) which leads to cardiac arrest. In severe cases of cardiac stress, the heart can even burst, a process known as cardiac rupture.6 Jesus most likely died of a heart attack.
After Jesus’ death, the soldiers break the legs of the two criminals crucified alongside Him (John 19:32), causing suffocation. Death would then occur quicker. When they came to Jesus, He was already dead so they did not break His legs (John 19:33). Instead, the soldiers pierced His side (John 19:34) to assure that He was dead. In doing this, it is reported that “blood and water came out” (John 19:34), referring to the watery fluid surrounding the heart and lungs.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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BORN AGAIN
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sister yahsway, you write quote:
The blood and water pouring out of His side after His death is really a medical condition...{bold by BORN AGAIN}
And this medical condition is?
Is it a medical condition for water and blood to come out only if one is dead first, or what are you saying?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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yahsway
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posted
The passage referring to the spear piercing Yeshuas side and out came forth water and blood doesn't have any "spiritual" significance to me at all. But it does have prophetic significance.
There is a medical side to the water and blood pouring forth from His side due to His being dead BEFORE the side was pierced. They broke the bones of the two thiefs to haste their deaths, but Yeshuas bones were not broken, so His side was pierced to make sure He was dead.
Yeshua bleed from many differnt sites, He was whipped, hands and feet were pierced, crown of thorns on head, beaten, but He died BEFORE He was pierced in His side.
John 19:30
So when Jesus had recieved the sour wine, He said "It is finished!" And bowing His head He gave up His spirit.
Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath, the Jews asked Pilate that their legs be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him.
But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
For these things were done that the scriptures should be fulfilled, "Not one of His bones shall be broken." And again another scripture says
"They shall look on Him whom they pierced."
The work of Yeshua was done when He cried "it is finished" and then died. It was after He died that He was pierced in the side with the spear. So that the prophetic scriptures was fulfilled.
The blood and water pouring out of His side after His death is really a medical condition, not a spiritual one, as He was already dead. of course this is just my opinion. Shalom
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
Humans all come by water and blood, don't they? the water breaks and there usually is some blood involved in human birth, isn't it?
So Jesus came by water and blood, meaning He was born of Miriam (Mary).
So what does John 19:34 mean? The same thing?
"But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water."
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
1 John 5
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
not by water only? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Yep. That's the only thing that prevents me from saying water = amniotic fluid.
Since it is a witness I wonder if it is related to the OT Atonement practices.
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BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace writes quote:
I was rather hoping that the team of BORN AGAIN and helpforhomeschoolers would have some input. No?
1 John 5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
I tink that some have answered "rather fancifully", making the water and the blood mean various "spiritual things."
Humans all come by water and blood, don't they? the water breaks and there usually is some blood involved in human birth, isn't it?
So Jesus came by water and blood, meaning He was born of Miriam (Mary).
But, if that is the case, what does this bolded statement mean?
1 John 5
6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
not by water only?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
From the side of Christ on Calvary we receive the blood of propitiation and the Living Waters of Life.
It's starting to make sense - thanks.
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Caretaker
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In chapter 19, verse 34 of St. John’s gospel we read But one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once there came out blood and water. When the Roman soldier stuck his spear into Jesus side it was to confirm that Jesus was really dead – and in that act we have the verification that the work of God on the cross – the work that accomplishes our salvation – had really happened. Again going back to John’s gospel we see Jesus saying, He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, which those who believed in him were to receive; for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (Jn 7:38-39). John understood the flow of water from Jesus’ side as a literal fulfillment of his own prophecy – in Jesus we find the river of living water, the life giving Holy Spirit, which only came after Jesus’ death. John is saying that the water that flowed from Jesus side is a visible symbol of that. The true salvific coming in water wasn’t when John baptized Jesus with water, but the water flowing from Jesus’ side. At his baptism the Spirit descended on Jesus, but at Jesus’ death the Spirit flows from him to us. And the blood that flowed from his side is the sign of the sacrificial victim – it showed that his death was an atoning sacrifice for sin. Earlier in the epistle St. John wrote the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin (1:7) and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world (2:2). The blood that flowed from Jesus side showed that Jesus died according to the Law as it applied to sacrificial victims. In the Old Testament the priests would slaughter the animals brought as sacrifices and then would sprinkle the blood of the animals around the altar and on the people.
We don’t deserve God’s mercy, we’re responsible for the death of his Son, but he extends his grace to us anyway and as we’re sprinkled by the blood of Jesus’ sacrificed for us our sins are washed away so that we can stand before God as holy men and women.
From the side of Christ on Calvary we receive the blood of propitiation and the Living Waters of Life.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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HisGrace
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Are there no more thoughts on this subject? I was rather hoping that the team of BORN AGAIN and helpforhomeschoolers would have some input. No??
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yahsway
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HisGrace, I believe the gist of that scripture is not so much the water or the blood, which in and of itself are evidences of Yeshuas humanity and joint symbols if you will of His redeepmtion,
but is that John sees this as a fullfillment of prophecy:
"They shall look on Him whom they pierced". Shalom
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HisGrace
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Thanks for the explanation yahsway. What about this one? What does the water symbolize in this scripture?
John 19:34
But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif)
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yahsway
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Hi HisGrace, I believe the water refers to Yeshua's bapitism where the Father declared His idenity as the Son and annointed Him for His ministry and the blood refering to His crucifixion by which Yeshua completed His work.
This is how I see it. Shalom
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HisGrace
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1 John 5:6 (King James Version)
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
What exactly does 'by water' mean? Does it mean purification? Is it referring to baptism? Is it referring to the makeup of our bodies, using the symbology of both water and blood?
Maybe it is all of these. Any thoughts?
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