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Topic: HEAVEN -- AND WHO WILL GO THERE
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epouraniois
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I don't know if the Bible speaks of people as born agains Christians, but if we stay with Biblical terminonlogy we shant go wrong. We find the terms 'adoption', and 'hope', and these are intimate in association with the specific 'calling' given each adopted family.
The seed of Abraham is one calling to the land in resurrection. The seed of promise, being of Isaac, and out of each of these there is a reward for those who are given to be overcomers because of their faith. The last calling we are told of is in the prison epistles wherein a 'high calling' is revealed where these members are called to a heavenly calling far above all heavens of heavens with Christ.
Are there any more callings, hopes and adoptions in Scripture beyond these?
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BORN AGAIN
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so are bornagain Christians in their glorified bodies all go to heaven for a long time or shall bornagain Christians in their glorified bodies all live forever on the new earth?
if the so-called millennium or "thousand years" of Revelation are still future to us, what will the glorified Christians be doing during that thousand years?
and what will bornagain Christians be doing after the thousand years are expired?
May the LORD YHWH of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN
"Israel--as a prince have you power with the LORD YHWH and God Elohim and with Adonai"
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BORN AGAIN
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assuming that the “1,000” year period of Revelation is still future to us, then the new sky and the new earth of Revelation is still at least 1,000 years future to us. That is still a long time from now. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
BORN AGAIN in USA, by the ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) of Yahshua-Jesus of Nazareth, but born in Bethelem-Judah, as Micah 5:2 predicted. ("just fishin'")
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helpforhomeschoolers
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The scripture say that the old wil be disolved and a new created. To be honest I have not studied this much BA, I cant say. I remember reading I think it was in Ezekiel and hover is a good word for what I imagined, but honestly I am not very knowledgable about the Milinnial reign or the events after that I have some real ... concerns about the accuracy of a lot of what is taught in this regard today, and have not myself studied it thuroughly. I am still workign on this side of eternity!
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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BORN AGAIN
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sister helpforhomeschoolers writes quote:
Is heaven coming down to earth. Or is the new earth that is now in heaven coming down out of heaven?
that was a good question. the new earth would replace the current earth; is that a renewed earth or a new earth?
and the new heaven would replace the current sky, while the New Jerusalem would presumably hover above the land of Israel/Judah, or how do you all see that happening?
May the LORD God of Israel bless us all on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN in the USA
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epouraniois
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24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:
Absolutely, the Hebrew people awiat the fulfillment of her promise to be that called out nation by which she shall act as that channel of blessings to all the non Hebrew nation people who have ever lived to bring the knowledge and the acknowledgment of the Lord to all the world. This they could have done had they repented and believed, but they did not, so it awaits the time when the Lord again takes up His plan for Israel. This is the means by which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. This has been their purpose all along as that called out nation seperate from all other peoples of the earth.
This is one unique purpose in God's outworking by which the earth shall be filled with His family.
The unique purpose of the church is far different, and given us in Eph 3:10. This purpose does not have to do with the earthly people, but the family in the heavenly places.
We must make room in our thoughts for the unfolding plan of the ages to include more than even what these Bible verses declare, knowning that it is impossible to fully plumb the word of God.
We read throughout the OT of the failure of Israel to assume her leadership role, but we are no better, not even a little bit.
Look:
Eze 18:25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
You see, we wish this Book to be something of our understanding, but it is just the opposite.
Eze 18:29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?
Eze 20:44 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have wrought with you for my name's sake, not according to your wicked ways, nor according to your corrupt doings, O ye house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
The question is then, when it is revealed that there is a sphere of blessing promised to Abraham Isaac and Jacob which has to do with an inheritance in the land, the very land Abraham was to walk and measure, shall we not believe God?
And when we learn that there are taken out from these a faithful of overcoming faith which the Lord has reserved and declared shall be married to Him whose inheritance and sphere of blessing is in the heavenly Jerusalem which comes down to the earth from heaven, shall we not believe God?
Completing the word of God, the apostle manifestly declares by the Holy Spirit that there is another called out and seperate people who were chosen before the world began called the church who have for their blessings an entirely seprate and undocumented sphere of enjoyment to be far above all heavens of heavens where He has ascended, seated with Him there to complete the whole family of God, and shall we believe that these words will return to Him void?
So the nations of Revelation 21 are they who were taught by Israel as priestly kings reigning on the earth. Our one hope is to be found in the church which is His body. If we cannot believe this, then it appears Israel may be our overlords as we are instructed in how to believe that which is written.
These are the three main demarcations of the spheres of blessings, announced by the words adoption, calling, and hope.
Then there are all the people in all nations who never heard of the true God, never bound by the precepts of righteousness and the need which only grace and the boundless mercy of God who is verily love itself declares therein is the healing of the nations, bringing in a fourth sphere of blessings, and all this to prepare for Himself the glory that shall follow after in the new creation, of which it is written the whole family in heaven and earth shall be blessed.
agape.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
1 ¶ And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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The short answer is:
The heavenly city comes down to the earth and reckoned as a bride, it is strickly Jewish in charactor.
Is it heaven, or a heavenly city? The Holy Spirit reveals it is a city doesn't it?
Where is the shpere of blessing for the church then?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
That tells us where Christ is, yes?
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus
Where is He again? Far above all:
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
This is the glorious position of the church. It is never said to be on earth, or to return to the earth.
The long answer, and well worth the read:
Of Heaven & the Pleroma - gleaning a glimpse of the divine purpose of the ages:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
H7225 beginning
ראשׁית
re^'shi^yth
BDB Definition:
1) first, beginning, best, chief
1a) beginning
1b) first
1c) chief
1d) choice part
Part of Speech: noun feminine
We are interested in the first word, ראשׁית. There is no article “the”. So, a word has been inserted, and we really only have: “In beginning”. In Gen 3:15, the word is translated “head”. God will crush satan’s beginning, or head. Christ is the head, or beginning. In John 1:1 we have the “Word”. No matter how long ago we are reading of, Christ was present. In Jer 2:3 the same word is translated “firstfruits”.
Jer 2:3 Israel was holiness unto the LORD, and the firstfruits of his increase: all that devour him shall offend; evil shall come upon them, saith the LORD.
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
So, the statement in Genesis 1:1, is not speaking of time, but of movement. We are not told of any timeframe, but we are told of a movement, of intent and purpose; where we are given a small slice of God’s time, along with God’s plan to be all in all. We have the beginning of His movement in Genesis and the closing moves in Revelation. God, knowing all things before they happen, set forth this movement. God has a counter mover coming on the scene. We are told thru out the Book “an enemy has done this”. When satan makes his move, God makes His countermove. So, the Bible deals mostly with this portion of His purpose. We are told little of other realms God may have in store for us, but are given indications like Christ rose above all Heavens, more than one.
At one end of this movement we have the rebellion and at the other we have restoration, where this portion will “pass away with a great noise”; 2 Pet 3, the earth & its “works that are therein shall be burned up”.
In Revelation it is the “former” Heavens which will pass away, not the 1st, but the former. In Isa the Heavens are “stretched out”.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
It is His right Hand [Son] stretched out for His mighty purpose of redemption and destruction of the wicked.
Isa 14:26 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations.
So, this limited Heaven, or covering, or tabernacle, will pass away. But Heaven itself will remain. The firmament covers this age to contain the enemy. The enemy is contained in this sphere of God’s works, thereby not allowing sin to infect any other sphere. This Heaven will be rolled up like a tent and the Heaven of Heavens will be accessible by the mercy of God.
These limited heavens are spread out like a tabernacle, and God tells Job of this portion, the foundations rest upon “sockets”. This word is used by Moses some 50 times, and is also translated foundation. It is these silver sockets fashioned from the redemption money wherein the foundation of the tabernacle rests. They are the same word. God is telling us, and showing us, how His plan will unfold, what it is made of and what we are truly seeing. So each time God makes a move, He uses satan’s move for His next countermove. It goes like this all thru the Bible. In Christ dweleth all the fullness of the Godhead Bodily. He knew what He had to do. So when He uses this word, fullness, it is to lead us in principled understanding.
Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
This is the first time in the NT the word “pleroma” is used. “fill”. And it is used in contrast with a “rent”. Garment, rent, patch. This is what is purposed from the first movement since the rebellion. God will use the substance from the world that then was to make this patch. He will not utilize a new patch to counteract the original tear, or rent. In fact, there were many rents, starting with Adam and Eve in this present tabernacle. Adam wasn’t the fullness, neither were any other till God came here bodily. We are shown many “types”, as “shadows” of Him which was to come, and of that which shall be.
Mar 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse. [2nd witness]
The word “new” is suggestive of the word “fuller”. Remember Christ’s robe was whiter than any fuller could whiten it? These words are different, yet suggestive of the process where the old cloth has to go thru the processes required to make it inert, or incorruptible. It must be bleached, twisted, ironed, stretched, straining the pressures before it comes to its inert position. This is the process that makes ready. This process is the same process we are undergoing in the flesh, in this limited tabernacle. This is our “life”. It may not be fun, but it has the purpose of a glorious end.
Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
The word “agreeth” is the same word as our English word “symphony”. Symphony is a sounding together.
Ecc 7:14 In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him.
Above we see the opposite view, yet with the same focal purpose. It is a reminder of “vanity” and “emptiness”. What is purposed will be accomplished with what already is. God will be shown perfect in weakness. What an indignation for satan this will be.
Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
The long waiting, the groan of creation, all points to when Christ comes in the fulness of seasons, when it all that remains is made new. Now, while we wait, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. We are in the wilderness, going thru a battlefield. God tells us He suffers us to hunger as well as giving us bread, god does both so we can know we do not live by bread alone. God Himself is a tent dweller, and He tells us we are all going thru this movement together, in the light, and in the darkness. He tells us that until this is over He will never leave you or forsake us. This means we have a companion.
Joh 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
As Abraham was willing to be a tent dweller, looking forward to the promise. Grace for Grace. The word “for” is the balance point of the scales.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
We have the reality of fulness working, and we are integral towards this, purposed in Christ.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Back in Genesis 3 we have types, and we have reality in Christ. Many do not realize they are being used by God. Take the emperor Augustus, he places a tax on the world so Mary and Joseph will return to the house of bread; Bethlehem.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
“Time” is from “chronos”, and means opportune, or just right, and a season will come when there is a harvest.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Now, when Christ was reading from the Book, He closed the Book after v15, …the time is fulfilled, as v15 would not yet be. Did they receive the message? Well, we can receive it. God has purposed a time for everything, but we brethren, know not what to pray as we ought.
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
This is the fulness of Christ. The pleroma, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We can now call no thing, or peoples common.
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.
Understanding this is simply vast and beyond us. As from the east to the west. When Abraham walked thru the land, he would measure it, but this is beyond us, who can know?
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
“filled with” should be “filled up to”… according to what each vessel can hold. So, if I am small, and you are large, and we are both filled to the brim, then we are equal. As God would say, some thirty, and some sixty, and some and hundred. In Phil it is emptiness with blessing attached to it:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
“of no reputation” means “emptiness”. In Eph it is fulness with blessing attached to it.
So, we have a process to restore a “rent” that had been made in God’s creation, wherein a patch was foreordained using this lowly age, held and covered by His tabernacle so that God will be “all in all.” God was alone in beginning, becomes a tent dweller with His future family until the times are full.
Pro 12:25 Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop: but a good word maketh it glad.
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Using symbology and analogy God speaks to us of these secret things He reveals. Each and every material used in creation is purposed for ages and ages, beyond and above heavens, and heavens of heavens. These are the things we shall be looking into.
His purpose, His movement, His Passover, His love and perfect ways secure the future for all His children thru His redemptive plan. Victory is assured. We are told this victory is over an enemy war is in the heavens, and will culminate in this age being put away, literally rolled up like a tent, and that all men must taste death once. This is when the sunetilia meets the telos. We pray that we when we sit at His table and sup on His bread, that He may feed us His truth, to better know Him and His mighty and glorious ways, where He set up His purpose to gather together all that are His, to be ever with the Lord. Amen.
Joh 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
AS the heaven above is likened unto a tent, the foundation is likened unto those sockets which Job and Moses spoke of. In Genesis 1:2 we have seen that the earth became with out form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep. This word “darkness” is also translated as “wickedness” and “sorrow” and “death”. Moving forward thru this same verse, we are told that the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
We should also be aware that the word “waters” is elsewhere translated “piss”, and refer to a constant stream. These words are not used just because God didn’t have a better word, but to allow us to glimpse the serious nature of that breach, or rent, in the very fabric of creation. ( This has another reference, Jacob's Ladder ). This leeds us to become aware that what is done in heaven is being worked out here on earth. A rent that He foreknew would occur. So, because of this rent, there was judgment, and the earth was shaken, or shook by God, as the darkness was so profound that God’s children were deceived by that spiritual enemy. Let us look at the word “moved” in verse 2. This same word is translated “fluttered”, and “brood”.
Deu 32:11 As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: (Hebrew has no neuter, only masculine and feminine – this is why God has fem & masc grammer applied to Himself).
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
A figure of a bird, spreading abroad her wings. Is this not very interesting? We have Christ speaking similarly in Mathew. There is a continual reference to this peculiar character of God running through the scriptures.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
We are seeing that out of this destruction there will be life once more, as God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Recall how God always refers to His children as being “asleep” when the body dies. Well, we know this is because we, our spirit, returns to God who gave it (Ecc12. 7). That out of this darkness, life is come, that light will put away the darkness, the evil. That this brooding is an unseen force, infinitely more real than this slice of limited reality. That the future move is of the character of the Gospel Kingdom.
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
We now know that the “beginning” movement in verse Genesis 1:1, was some time prior to verse 2 and the six day re-consruction; and that the six days were preparation for the flesh, of which God would dwell among men. We have three days of preparation, and three days which bring forth fruit, called life. Day one He brings “light”, and day two we have the firmament and the waters, and day three we have earth and vegetation. Day four we have “lights”, not light, but “lights”, which is a compound word, meaning light holders; a candle, a torch, a sun or a moon. Then we have firmament and water in the fifth day , and cattle and so forth, till the sixth day where we have mankind. And finally, we have the day of rest, which is a foreshadow of a timetable for this age. Although we cannot be exact, we can see how this age would come to its close after a seven day, or a seven thousand year period, beginning in the man Adam and culminating when the generation of the fig tree would manifest; being Judah becoming a nation state once again; [1948]. We are now prepared to look at the firmament of the second day of re-creation.
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
We must now consider that we are told Christ has entered into heaven, and also that He has raised far above all heavens, and that He passed thru the heavens. Obviously, God has distinguished one heaven from another. In the OT, most of the references to heaven have no reference to Genesis 1 verse 1, but reference the limited heaven, which is destined to pass away. So in this time, God has limited this heaven , for His purpose in dealing with this great spiritual foe. For satan is the prince of the power of the air, and his servants hold the darkness and powers of this world.
When God “called” the firmament “heaven”, He has assigned a name which reflects a larger truth, that this heaven is under the real heaven, separate from the true reality. So, this heaven, this firmament is the limited one which is mostly spoken of in the OT. The word “firmament” has been given the word expanse, or expansion.
Exo 39:3 And they did beat the gold into thin plates, and cut it into wires, to work it in the blue, and in the purple, and in the scarlet, and in the fine linen, with cunning work.
H7554; ra^qa‛; raw-kah'; is the word we get “firmament from. A primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication to overlay (with thin sheets of metal): - beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
The meaning is something exceedingly rarified and thin; the firmament. Lets look at more of God’s symboligy.
Jer 10:9 Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.
Job 9:8 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.
Job 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.
Now the “empty place” is the identical word used in Genesis 1:2 where He says “without form”. What we are being told about is the first move of restoration. Here we need to stop and learn how our English Bible was influenced by the Latin, and hence, there are issues with this word “firmament”. The Greek version use the word “stereoma”. One usage would be a “stereotyped” idea. It seems that the more it is translated the worse we are for our understanding. So we shall leave it as it is in God’s word and not mess with it.
Psa 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
Psa 104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Psa 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
Psa 104:6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
To me, this is so very interesting, as we are given so much information that it is difficult to grasp it at all. We are told of God making His angels spirits, and we are spirits. That God has covered Himself. We are told in I John 1 that we must be born from above, and when we die, our spirit returns to God, which is above. His throne is the heavens, and His manifestation is likened to a wrinkle in His Garment elsewhere. I just wanted to toss this in for your consideration.
Isa 40:15 Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.
Isa 40:21 Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
In the Bible, from start to the end, the tabernacle is a dwelling place for God among His people. The Lord God is constantly showing, and telling, us His purpose.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
So we are shown how it is, and how man makes it a thing of worship, instead of worshiping the creator, man worships the creation. It is as if man has no understanding, no wisdom. And, indeed, apart from God, man does not. All of Is 40 deals with God’s gentle nature and should be read at this time. [It is a short chapter]
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
Isa 42:7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Here again we see God bringing light out of darkness, not giving any credence to gods made with hands, as it is He that strecheth for the heavens and places the spirit in man, bringing redemption to His children. Another sequel to idolatry:
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.
Isa 44:23 Sing, O ye heavens; for the LORD hath done it: shout, ye lower parts of the earth: break forth into singing, ye mountains, O forest, and every tree therein: for the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and glorified himself in Israel.
Our redeemer is He that stretched forth the Heavens, as a thin and special substance, separating this limited sphere from the rest of His creation. We see this again and again, and are told that we should not have forgotten this fact, as when we do, we fall prey to idolatry and sin. Yet, we must see that our mighty God is who we must deal with; a God that has used this material to further His purposes of redemption.
Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
This is poorly translated, as “dierchomai” and “erchomai” are not the same. The word we are looking at here is the word “into”. “Erchomai” means to come, and “dierchomai” means to come thru. So, this means to pass thru the heavens. And the next verse goes even further.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
So, we are looking at the fact that these heavens we have now, will pass away. That He has gone thru this temporary heaven and thru the eternal heaven to sit above all heavens. When this heaven’s work is done it shall be packed up like a tent, and put away.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
The heavens of Genesis 1:1 shall not pass, but this limited heaven shall be put away. “Uranos” and “epouranos” are two Greek words we should familiarize ourselves. “Uranos” is heaven, while “epan” means over, or above, or upon. Properly spelled epouranos.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
In the above verses we have the context indicating this limited “heaven” [ouranos], while in the verse below, we have the word “heavenly” [epouranos]
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
So, we have two distinct terms for different spheres of creation. One shall pass, the other will remain. The OT scribes were aware of this:
Psa 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
Psa 148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
Psa 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
The writers gave attention that it was known that there were heavens above the heavens and that there were waters above the heavens. The waters divided beneath and the waters above in Genesis 1 are to be taken quite literally. Look at the next distinction, where we see more than one heaven; expressing something we are to take as to be true.
Deu 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.
1Ki 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
We have this limited heaven stretched out, and the foundation as thin sockets which it rests upon, as explained in the building of the tabernalce which Moses would build.
Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
The word “departed” is a massively violent word, and is used one other time in Acts :
Act 15:39 And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
If we back up a couple of verses, we see Paul thought not good to take Mark with them, but Barnabus was “determined”. And we come to the word “departed”, a violent violent word. So when these heavens depart it will be a violent movement, as it will come out of the context of judgment.
2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Savior:
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
And we know there are scoffers leading churches these days, who have no room for this age coming to its conclusion, no room for appearing with Christ far above all the heavens of heavens, but spiritualizing away His appearing and His coming. Saying He has come in Spirit and so forth. Or that we shall be taken away from these events if He even ever does come. That God does not alter the form of this world, but oh, we know better don’t we? He has done it before, with water, and will do it again with fire. In verse 13 we have a wrong word, for the Day of the Lord and the Day of God differ. Instead of saying “wherein”, we should have “because of which”. It is because of the Day of God, that all of this took place. And the end of the movement, and all this therein, all that we know, is destined to pass away. Nevertheless, just as in the days of Noah, God shall deliver all that have faith thru this violent end. We shall look quite a lot closer at this tabernacle when we get to the tabernacle study.
We should find comfort in the fact that nothing ever takes God by surprise, and that everything in this limited sphere is purposed to bring salvation to His faithful, no matter how hard it seems to be here for us. And no matter what anyone else may say or do, that we shall simply take God at His Word, thru understanding, when we sit at His table and eat of His Bread.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
quote:
but if heaven is coming down to earth in the form of New Jerusalem with 12 gates and 12 foundations, could that not be construed as the "heavenly citizenship"?
Is heaven coming down to earth. Or is the new earth that is now in heaven coming down out of heaven?
Is not the citizenship that we have in heaven a citizenship in the New Jesusalem which is heavenly at present time?
Rev.21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the old heaven and the old earth had disappeared. And the sea was also gone. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven like a beautiful bride prepared for her husband.
I heard a loud shout from the throne, saying, "Look, the home of God is now among his people! He will live with them, and they will be his people. God himself will be with them.He will remove all of their sorrows, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. For the old world and its evils are gone forever."
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
but if heaven is coming down to earth in the form of New Jerusalem with 12 gates and 12 foundations, could that not be construed as the "heavenly citizenship"?
Is heaven coming down to earth. Or is the new earth that is now in heaven coming down out of heaven?
Is not the citizenship that we have in heaven a citizenship in the New Jesusalem which is heavenly at present time?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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epouraniois
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quote:
Originally posted by J4Jesus:
what kind of Spiritual Blessings?
The Greek read every blessing that is spiritual in heavenly places, literally, every blessing that God has to give in the heavens above all heavens of heavens.
It would be difficult, but not impossible to number the blessings to be bestowed upon Israel, but the church has every blessing. We are further told, these are exceeding abundantly above all that we can think:
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
AS for the time present, in Eph4.3 we are told to guard the unity of the Spirit, not to create it, or duplicate it, but to guard that unity which already exist in heavenly places in Christ. Eph2.6 sees the members of the one body as already being seated with Christ where He is, but as Heb 2:8 declares, 'he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
likewise, we read the works have been finished from the foundation of the world - Heb 4:3
Wherein we look forward to the day when it is said, 'It is done':
That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him - Eph 1:10
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BORN AGAIN
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brother J4Jesus writes quote:
what kind of Spiritual Blessings?
how comes it's so tragic down here then?
the spiritual blessings freely given to us because Jesus paid for our sins. eternal life, a glorified body, be just like Jesus, hear from the LORD YHWY 100% all the time, have access and exit rights to enter and exit New Jerusalem, to reign with Christ, to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit as Jesus was indwelled.
these are the spiritual blessings which await us, J4Jesus:
Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Ephesians 1:14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.
May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus of Nazareth, born in Bethlehem-Judah, as Micah 5:2 said:
Micah 5:2
But you, Bethlehem Ephratah, though you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall He come forth unto Me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
{"just fishing")
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by J4Jesus:
what kind of Spiritual Blessings?
how comes it's so tragic down here then?
I dont know, but the Bible says "in heavenly places in Christ"
To me that must be a type of DC(damage control) Central of all Spiritual command.
Most pertected area on the ship.
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J4Jesus
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what kind of Spiritual Blessings?
how comes it's so tragic down here then?
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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
WildB posts in an article quote:
This was so even when our Lord was on earth and continued to be so through Pentecost. Peter, addressing his kinsmen just after Pentecost, said in essence: "Repent, and God will send Jesus down here" (See Acts 3:19-20), but Paul, in his epistles, says by divine inspiration: "Believe, and God will take you up there."
This apostle of grace teaches us that God has already given believers in Christ a position and "all spiritual blessings" in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:4-6; 1:3). And he teaches further that at the close of this dispensation of grace "the dead in Christ shall rise" and "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together ...to meet the Lord... and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes. 4:16,17).
Thus it is that Paul, God’s special apostle for our day, declares that "our conversation [or citizenship] is in heaven" (Phil. 3:20) and writes of "the hope which is laid up for you in heaven" (Col. 1:5). Thus it is that he encourages persecuted saints, saying: "Ye...took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing...that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Heb. 10:34). And thus he writes even of death:
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (II Cor. 5:1).
"...to die is gain....to depart and to be with Christ...is far better" (Phil. 1:21,23).
but if heaven is coming down to earth in the form of New Jerusalem with 12 gates and 12 foundations, could that not be construed as the "heavenly citizenship"?
that is, we would be allowed to partake of the divine blessings, to have a glorified body, to reign with Christ, to have right to enter New Jerusalem, etcetera, but all this takes place on earth, or not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
Revelation 21,22
By Paul M. Sadler
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband" (Rev. 21:1,2).
Over the past century or so there has been an ongoing controversy that has swirled around the 21st and 22nd chapters of Revelation. While most tend to shrink from controversy, it is not always a bad thing. Controversy drives us back to the Scriptures to determine the legitimacy of a particular teaching. It causes us to ponder what we may not have otherwise considered. But something new does not necessarily mean it aligns itself with the Scriptures. This is why it is important to exercise a great deal of discernment when weighing the validity of a new teaching. The question is, is it sound doctrine?
the rest can be read at the page below.
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/1100120646.html
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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BORN AGAIN
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WildB posts in an article quote:
This was so even when our Lord was on earth and continued to be so through Pentecost. Peter, addressing his kinsmen just after Pentecost, said in essence: "Repent, and God will send Jesus down here" (See Acts 3:19-20), but Paul, in his epistles, says by divine inspiration: "Believe, and God will take you up there."
This apostle of grace teaches us that God has already given believers in Christ a position and "all spiritual blessings" in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:4-6; 1:3). And he teaches further that at the close of this dispensation of grace "the dead in Christ shall rise" and "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together ...to meet the Lord... and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes. 4:16,17).
Thus it is that Paul, God’s special apostle for our day, declares that "our conversation [or citizenship] is in heaven" (Phil. 3:20) and writes of "the hope which is laid up for you in heaven" (Col. 1:5). Thus it is that he encourages persecuted saints, saying: "Ye...took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing...that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Heb. 10:34). And thus he writes even of death:
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (II Cor. 5:1).
"...to die is gain....to depart and to be with Christ...is far better" (Phil. 1:21,23).
but if heaven is coming down to earth in the form of New Jerusalem with 12 gates and 12 foundations, could that not be construed as the "heavenly citizenship"?
that is, we would be allowed to partake of the divine blessings, to have a glorified body, to reign with Christ, to have right to enter New Jerusalem, etcetera, but all this takes place on earth, or not?
God bless, BORN AGAIN
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WildB
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HEAVEN -- AND WHO WILL GO THERE
by Cornelius R. Stam
Most people are surprised when they learn that the Old Testament, though three times as large as the New, does not contain one single promise about going to heaven. God’s people, in Old Testament times, looked forward to a glorified earth, with Messiah as its Ruler.
This was so even when our Lord was on earth and continued to be so through Pentecost. Peter, addressing his kinsmen just after Pentecost, said in essence: "Repent, and God will send Jesus down here" (See Acts 3:19-20), but Paul, in his epistles, says by divine inspiration: "Believe, and God will take you up there."
This apostle of grace teaches us that God has already given believers in Christ a position and "all spiritual blessings" in heavenly places in Christ (Eph. 2:4-6; 1:3). And he teaches further that at the close of this dispensation of grace "the dead in Christ shall rise" and "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together ...to meet the Lord... and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thes. 4:16,17).
Thus it is that Paul, God’s special apostle for our day, declares that "our conversation [or citizenship] is in heaven" (Phil. 3:20) and writes of "the hope which is laid up for you in heaven" (Col. 1:5). Thus it is that he encourages persecuted saints, saying: "Ye...took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing...that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance" (Heb. 10:34). And thus he writes even of death:
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dis- solved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens" (II Cor. 5:1).
"...to die is gain....to depart and to be with Christ...is far better" (Phil. 1:21,23).
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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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