|
Author
|
Topic: Revisiting Tongues
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
I believe that if folks would simply find the reslove to deliniate the reasonings given for the pupose of the Acts, it will become clear that there is only one reason given.
It is for the hope of Israel to receive her kingdom through the longsuffering of the Lord, in fulfillment of His prayer, that they be forgiven, they didn't know what they were doing.
It becomes appearent that if Satanic demoniacs can deceive the very people who Christ Jesus came to save, when God was manifest in the flesh, that Satan can certainly deceive those of us who are believing any feel good doctrine that comes along.
But check it out, the Bible is not a story about feeling good, or that it is good to lift up oneslef, or even to have gifts.
We repeatedly read that Satan could deceive the very elect of God if it were possible. Everyone wants to say they are the elect. There are a multitude of ways to confirm this, but the elect are the few, not the many.
Can it be possible that mixing up what God has made seperate can be used to deceive the masses? I think it is obvious.
There is only one purpose during the Acts. There is not two purposes. Only one.
It is conclusive that the list of gifts given during the present dispensation does not include the supernatural gifts of the Pentacostal period.
It is conclusive that the apostle who could during that time, heal from afar, not upon belief, but upon the touching of a peice of his garment sent from afar, that this apostle could no longer heal even when present.
Right up till the very end of Acts, right up till the Israel's last, but still possible to accept her king and receive her kingdom, the apostle was healing, being bitten by poisonous viper, working all the supernatural miracles of Mark16, until they divorced themselves from any possiblity of the Lord's then eminent return, they insteal departed and talked amongst themselves.
The Lord then reveals His present plan, and it doesn't include speaking to the Hebrews in their own language, which is the Pentacostal sign to the Jew, that they might be converted and receive the times of refreshing.
IP: Logged | 
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
timpspong writes quote:
Now if tongues were just a foreign language why would unbelievers think they are mad?
1 Corinthians 14:23
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that you are mad?
dear timspong, thanks for participating on this CBBS. Re your statement, note that also the unlearned would say that they are mad.
This implies that the learned would NOT say that they are mad, and also implies that the learned would be able to understand what was being spoken, namely a foreign language.
Because if what you said were true, that it could not have been a foreign language, then also the learned could not have learned it if it was something like a "heavenly prayer language" or whatever, as you seem to imply, right? For the learned would only have been able to learn a foreign, earthy language, and not a "heavenly."
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
Essentially what Paul was saying is that tongues (without interpretation) are for self edification and do not belong in a worship service where the uninformed or unbelievers may be present.
1co 14:23 Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
Now if tongues were just a foreign language why would unbelievers think they are mad?
I really pray that you do not keep your mind closed to these matters and let the Holy Spirit reveal the true meaning of scripture. There is an awful lot of worldly wisdom being injected into these discussions.
I know many people who speak in tongues (me included) that only ever practice it in solitude, where could the pride and covetousness be in that? I would not even admit to having the ability if it were not for the edification of others or for re-proof.
Satan clearly has the power to give supernatural abilities, why limit God with worldly thinking and conjecture. Covetousness & pride could cause someone to fake tongues for sure (even without their knowledge), but it could just as easily cause someone into the denial of its very existence (without their knowledge). You should be careful about irreverence to the Holy Spirit especially if trying to insinuate that it is the work of satan. See Matthew 12.24 etc.
1co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
1co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1co 1:19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
Believe me, I am not trying to pick a fight, I am just very concerned with the kind of teaching that is going on in this place. I think many agree with me but may be intimidated by the shear amount of information or fear of rebuttal. I pray that everyone says what is on their heart and lets God guide the direction of the conversation.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
think about it, if i spoke Syriac in a dialect unkown only 12 miles away due to their brand of Siriac, and the Lord used me to speak to a Jew to prove the Lord was calling that Jew to repentance, if there were other's around, because the Lord is not the God of confusion He would provide an interpreter so that all would be edified, and not just that Jew only.
This goes to the true nature of Paul's rebuf as well, if they had need to pray that an interpreter be amoung them, then it becomes evident that alot of people were faking having the gift of tongues.
It is beyond doubt that people are generally covatous, desirous of that which they do not possess, and here are a people being used of God as prophecied. Can't you just see people practicing and practicing till they got comfortable enough to go out into the pubic and proclaim that God was using them? that they had the gift of tongues? I mean, really, it is the only gift which could be faked, and therefore the gift most likely to be used by Satan to deceive and misslead the goal of God, for that is what Satan does, and Satan is still doing it to this day.
2Th 2:9
...Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12
That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
If tongues were just another worldly language, why would there be a need for the gift of interpretation?
I have witnessed interpretation and the person heard tongues as if the person was speaking in English; however to everyone else it was incomprehensible. She had no idea she had the gift and had no idea the Pastor was speaking in tongues. This was the first and only time it ever happened to her. It was also revealed to us in a way that left us in no doubt to its authenticity, everyone was startled including the Pastor.
Also in the USA, I have friends that started speaking in tongues impulsively before they had any idea what it was. In fact one person left his church because they took a very dim view of when he prayed “spontaneously in the Spirit”. He actually was very very concerned, until he found a Pastor that could explain his gift.
I believe the actual gift of tongues is spontaneous and is God speaking through the gift recipient. This could be either, “one off” or a regular event. However, I believe that everyone baptized in the Holy Spirit has the ability (but may not exercise it) to speak in tongues “at will” as our spirit communicates to God (spirit to spirit) straight from the heart and bypassing the brain. You are in no doubt as the edification process lifts a great weight off your shoulders as you are able to pray the perfect prayer that communicates exactly what your spirit intends without worldly pollution from your brain.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is real and contemporary. Without it, you only have your own intellect and worldly wisdom by which to fathom scripture. You will be forever on the “ground floor” groping around in the dark and stubbing your toes on indulgent and worldly heretical revelation. Or worse, you have a lack of spiritual discernment and are influenced by the teachers of same.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
1Co 14:21
In the law it is written, With men *not Hebrews* of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all that will THEY *=this people the Hebrews* not hear me, saith the Lord.
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
epouraniois writes quote:
1Co 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will THEY not hear me, saith the Lord.
Who are THEY? THEY are the very same Israel that God has been working with to become usable as that called out nation for all nations. {bold by BA}
But who are the men of other tongues and other lips?
You say, "Who are THEY? THEY are the very same Israel".
The Messiah was to come through Judah-Benjamin-Levi to whom the sceptre portion of the unconditional promises of the LORD were given, to Judah.
The northern kingdom retained the national name of Israel, and the Galilean disciples were probably of the house of Israel, namely of Zebulun and of Naphtali and of Asher and of Issachar (but most likely from Naphtali whose tribe bordered the Sea of Galilee where at least four of the Galilean disciples were fishermen.
Let me repeat your quote here:
quote:
1Co 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all that will THEY not hear me, saith the Lord.
Who are THEY? THEY are the very same Israel that God has been working with to become usable as that called out nation for all nations. {bold by BA}
No, it is probably more like this.
"the men of other tongues and other lips" are probably the Galilean disciples who were probably of the "house of Israel" of Galilee.
and these "men of other tongues and other lips" spoke "to this people", which is Judah-Benjamin-Levi where the Messiah has just come to life.
The Galilean disciples have come with Yahshua-Jesus from Galilee to Jerusalem where the Holy Spirit comes on the Galilean disciples (there is one Canaanite among them, I know that), and the Pentecost experience happens "to this people" which is Judah-Benjamin-Levi.
And the THEY in the phrase "and yet for all that THEY will not hear me, says the LORD", refers to "this people", meaning, not the house of Israel, but Judah-Benjamin-Levi, "though they were spoken to by Galileans who were perhaps and probably of the house of Israel-Naphtali and Zebulun:
Matthew 4
15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;
16 The people who sat in darkness saw great light; and to them who sat in the region and shadow of death is light sprung up.
Matthew 4:23
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
To summarize, "the men of other tongues and other lips" were the Galilean disciples who at Pentecost
spoke "to this people" who was Judah and yet, for all that, though Judah and Diaspora Jews at Jerusalem "heard these Galileans speak in their own native language", "and yet for all that THEY will not hear me, says the LORD".
God blessings, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
I just saw another point in your quote to be brought out strongly:
1Co 14:21
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will THEY not hear me, saith the Lord.
Who are THEY? THEY are the very same Israel that God has been working with to become usable as that called out nation for all nations. THEY aren't anyone else than to which we read the purpose of the Acts is all about, namely to see if Israel would have the aftermindedness to reTurn to the Lord and receive His forgiveness and their promised 'at hand' kingdom. There is no other purpose of the Acts but for the hope of Israel.
Brethren, be not children...but in understanding be men...it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto THIS people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord... Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not...
1Co 14:20-22
WEll, it is still God's people Israel who would not listen. Who believe not.
Mar 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world...
Rom 10:18
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Mar 16:20
And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Amen means, and that's that. It happened, it was fulfilled, and that's that. The signs followed up to and including the very last of the last of the ministry which was 'for the hope of Israel'.
Rom 10:19
But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20
But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them *gentiles* that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21
But to Israel he saith,
All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people *Israel*.
Our calling is not their calling, for our calling was not revealed until after all the longsuffering of God during that 35 years, THEN after THAT, is brought forth the dispensation of the grace of God for you nations. see the prison epistles of the apostle to the gentiles, for they are the only ones with our name on the envelope. Every other one is to the Jew first, then the gentiles who were made partakers of 'Israel's 'spiritual things'; When therefore I have performed this, and have sealed to them this fruit
Rom 15:27-28
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
To the speakers, it was an unknown language. We say language, they said tongues. It is the difference of culture, nothing more. The words "unknown tongues" are not found in all of scripture. They added "unknown" tryinig to help, which is why it is itallicized and in a lighter print.
There is no getting around it, "tongues" means another language.
1 Corinthians 12:10
to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues
1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
~~I have heard it said that since believers are in a foreign land, tongues is the language of where they belong, in the kingdom of God.
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
To the speakers, it was an unknown language. We say language, they said tongues. It is the difference of culture, nothing more. The words "unknown tongues" are not found in all of scripture. They added "unknown" tryinig to help, which is why it is itallicized and in a lighter print.
The angel of the Lord spake Hebrew, because it was to the Hebrews for hearing. The Bible is about God revealing Himself to Hebrews, this one called out and seperated nation. A peculiar nation from the rest, in that the Lord was working with them. The only time we read of the other nations, is when they come into contact with the Hebrews. Check this out:
2Sa 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me, and His word was in my tongue.
2Sa 23:3 The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spoke to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.
2Sa 23:4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.
And the Lord spake to Paul on the road to Damascus in the Hebrew tongue:
Act 26:12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests,
Act 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
Act 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
So when Paul was saying he spake in the tongues of angels, he was telling people who spoke Greek, Italian, Latin, and Chaldean {in Corinith} that the angels speak in Hebrew. Hebrew was the God given language. Others were made later after Babylon. Greek is a man made language, very phylisophical and exacting, yet, falling short of God's perfect language, Hebrew.
Corinith was a sea port, straight w of Athens, and many diverse culture of pleasure, similar to Amsterdam is today. Sin city in effect. A liscentious man about town;
MSN Encarta:
Co·rin·thi·an [ kə rínthee ən ] adjective
1. of Corinth: relating to or typical of the ancient or modern Greek city of Corinth
2. architecture slender and ornate at top: used to describe a slender column with an ornate capital
3. debauched: debauched or ostentatiously luxurious ( literary )
noun (plural Co·rin·thi·ans)
1. somebody from Corinth: somebody from the city of Corinth
2. wealthy sportsperson: a wealthy amateur sportsperson, especially somebody fond of yachting ( humorous )
3. man about town: a man who enjoys good living
So, when these people where used to speak to a Jew, it was for the kingdom purpose given in Mark16, it was for the hope of Israel. Quite naturally, the disciples, becoming apostles asked the Lord, {Atcs1} Wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And some gentiles, and not many, a few thousand only, where entering into the knowledge of the Lord, but it was purposed for the intent that Israel would receive her promises, bringing to bear the full brunt of 1 Cor 15, and, 2 Thes 2. The thousand years would be over, death and the grave would have been cast into the lake of fire by now, and there would be a new heaven and a new earth if they had accepted the kingdom.
But, like Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, they did not have a true turning from their ways. So, when the HS is actively working, and you tell a lie to the HS the Holy {God}, judgment is swift. They fell down dead where they stood.
One comment on utterances.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
This doesn't mean we are to make noises. It is a mixed metaphor {putting on as garment the dwelling-place}. The subject is not the groaning, it is the knowledge of what Abraham knew, that there are better things;
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
when we read of the HS, The Lord is there. we never read about the HS without the Lord being present. i am just beginning to have a clearer understanding of what is meant by the Lord coming in the volume of the book, that Moses wrote of Him.
what did Moses write about Him? he wrote about God. the entire purpose of the Holy Spirit is to make Him known. if the result is anything other than making Him known, magnifying the Lord, lifting the Lord, then it is not the Holy Spirit.
this whole chapter is instruction to a people who were losing site of what the Holy Spririt was doing, requiring order and Paul did this "thoroughly furnished" to every good work. here Paul is reminding them why God has used them, what is written in the OT, and what their role is in the receiving by the Lord, and it is for the same kingdom purpose set forth at the beginning of the Acts, the hope of Israel:
""Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. 1Co_14:20-25
""For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear"". Isa_28:11-12
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"; Act_3:19
That is the only directive during the Acts, and the subject of every letter written during the Acts. Right now, God is not working with His people, but He will make them as a virgin bride again, after the times of the gentiles are full.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Rom_11:25-29
Paul knew at this time, that it was over for the hope of the kingom. He would soon quote that dreadful passage in Isaiah, blinding the nation, and sending the salvation of God to the nations, who, receive it. {Acts_28:24-28} It is really the Acts of the Holy Spirit we are reading about, not the acts of the apostles.
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1Co_13:6-8
And Paul was the last apostle who would prophecy of the Lord. Love never fails, but prophecies shall fail {the kingdom is in abayence}, and tongues shall cease {the kingdom is in abayence}; and the knowledge will vanish away {blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved-the kingdom is in abayence}
The comment of Christ the same today...forever is a copout attack an offsubject.
Sure, He is the same, but He isn't causing the flood of Noah today is He? Well, according to your theory, since Christ is the same, then He should be doing only the same things, never proceeding with His plan, but that is just as blind as the reasoning of the Jews were.
Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
What do these people speak of? They speak of magnifying the HS and such, well, Christ didn't magnify the HS, nor did any other verse in scripture.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Are the people who speaking in tongues today sporting all the other 'signs'? No, and they don't speak in the dialect of people who don't understand their language either. Are they speaking with understanding, no. Are they speaking to teach the good news to others, no, they can't be, no one can understand them, they don';t understand themselves because they are babbling. I can babble too, but I am not going to say it is God. God is not the author of confusion.
When the HS used these people it was to communicate specific messages to the Jews. Period. The same way Christ was doing:
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
You speak of the HS and yourselv's speaking babble, Christ said much differently.
Lift up Christ, not self, magnify Christ, not HS. The HS only speaks of Christ, and only in clear understandable languages for the kingdom purpose of converting the Jews.
That all stopped at Acts 28.28.
The apostle is then given a new list to go along with a new dispensation. The dispensation of the grace of God for you nations.
Yes, Paul makes known that God is no longer amoung the Jews, but now is amoung the nations. And a new list of gifts is given. Tongues, healings, miracles, signs, wonders, getting bit by poisonous vipers, drinking any poisonous thing, and raising the dead are not on the list, and not one single word of evidence is given that any of those Pentacostal gifts are hinted at as being present.
In fact the opposite is true, it is evident that none of the gifts are present as Paul is witness to his very friends dying because he can no longer heal them.
As Paul so plainly said, these things shall cease, but love remains.
If you think all these things are truth for today, then drink a gallon rat poison and prove it, or goto the hospital and heal every one there, or raise from the dead someone who you feel deserves it, goto the rattelsnake gardens and get bitten repeadedly and show how it doens't affect you, or at the very least speak in another language which ALL the others hear in their very own dialect.
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
~~Why would a gift be stolen back once given?
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
One reason they wouldn't be in affect, is that they stopped at Acts 28.28, when the kingdom offer to Israel was withdrawn and set into abayance. Even Paul was left abandoned of the spiritual gifts of the Pentacostal era, unable to help any of his dear friends and companions in Christ.
They were in affect right up through the last of the Acts period, when Israel's hope was in view.
Paul said they wouldn't be in affect for ever, and they weren't.
There was only one purpose given for them in the Bible, and that purpose, we read, was fulfilled.
It was a Jewish purpose, it was to convince even the gainsayers that God had not forsaken them for what they did, that the kingdom offer was at that time still being offered.
That stopped, along with the kingdom of Israel gifts at Acts28.28.
Clearly, EVERYONE isn't getting healed like they did back then.
Clearly NOONE is being raised from the dead.
Clearly MANY people do die from drinking poison or getting bitten by poisonous snakes and vipers.
Well, that isn't the way it was when the hope of Israel receiving her kingdom was in view during the Acts.
Timothy didn't get his deadly stomach problem till after Acts.
Paul didn't provide a new list of gifts until the Acts period gifts were no longer in affect.
Tongues were heard in every persons own dialect during the Acts. The people hearing them were Jews.
That is the way it was.
Today, people just babble incoherintly saying it is God, but back then it wasn't so.
Today people say you aren't healed due to lack of faith, but back then it wasn't so.
IP: Logged |
|
|
HisGrace
unregistered
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by timspong:
Over here the spiritual battlefield is very much alive with voodoo, juju etc etc. So I am sure God leaves us in no doubt and give us the Spiritual weapons we need.
I have heard it said that people see so much voodoo, etc over in Africa, that they know the power of the spirit world, so they see unbelievable miracles because of their great faith, even people being raised from the dead.
I believe in 1 Cor. 12, although I have never practised using the gift tongues.
IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
I mentioned to my church here in Nigeria that some Christians in the USA did not believe in the modern use of Spiritual gifts and they were amazed and dumbfounded. It was almost like telling them that Some Christians don't believe in Christ?
Over here the spiritual battlefield is very much alive with voodoo, juju etc etc. So I am sure God leaves us in no doubt and give us the Spiritual weapons we need.
Also, if you look at the development of the Church in China, it is like a replay of Acts. I have listened to their testomonies in person and it is truely Awesome how the Holy Spirit is working in that country.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
timspong
Advanced Member
Member # 5240
|
posted
The gifts as mentioned in Romans 12, I believe are from the Father who created us to perform a function. They are therefore inbuilt into us from the day He designed us.
The gifts outlined in 1Cor 12, I believe are from the Holy Spirit and enable the spirit to work through us and intercede in accordance with our divine purpose.
The gifts outlined in Ephesians 4, I believe, are from Jesus and enable us to fulfil our role within his beloved Church.
I agree that for centuries some of the gifts have lain dormant, due to unbelief and various heresies. However, since the fifties the charismatic revival is spreading across the world and here in Africa it is very powerful and real indeed. I have witnessed acts of the Holy Spirit personally so I am in no doubt.
The modern youth has had so much exposure to spiritual things, i.e. the occult (music etc), drugs (lsd) other “eastern” religions, healing, alternative medicine etc etc. That it is very hard for them to accept a Church that is nothing more than rituals or Bible studies with no practical application.
We need to show them examples of the Living Word, and the power of the Holy Spirit. We need to show them Christians living powerfully with wisdom and authority. Not just “good people” with a “religious self-righteous” attitude.
I believe ALL the Spiritual Gifts are “in full force and effect” and more relevant than ever. Why wouldn’t they be??? Why bother giving us this wonderful outline of a “Spirit Filled” existence in the NT if it was to become obsolete? I pray that everyone who reads this will open their hearts and minds to the Holy Spirit and allow him to reveal his true nature from within.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Timothy Michael Spong
Posts: 146 | From: Lagos, Nigeria | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Good question BA in that point. The word unknown is the Figure called ellipsis supplied. We can leave it out completely. The reason the translators add the supplied ellipsis is to remind us to follow the grammatical subject and it's object through to completion.
The subject and object, is set forth in the preceeding verses, where the apostle is admonishing the believers, reminding us with the Figure, of the preceeding subject and object, which is contrasted agaist 'understanding', thus:
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
A keyword in v. 19 is 'might teach - Greek = katēcheo
G2727
κατηχέω
katēcheō
kat-ay-kheh'-o
From G2596 and G2279; to sound down into the ears, that is, (by implication) to indoctrinate (“catechize”) or (generally) to apprise of: - inform, instruct, teach.
Act 18:25 This man was instructed *katēcheōin* the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
Another keyword in v. 19 is the word 'others', for there are 6 Greek words so translated, but this one is allos, and means literally, , another of the same kind, denoting numerical distinction. In other word, the other believers in Christ, ie, the Jews. The Jews were to understand that God was still willing and able to accept the chosen nation of Israel based upon national repentance. The apostles sound went out unto the ends of the world, all Israel had heard by the time the Salvation of God was sent to all nations, Israel taking her place amidst them/us.
Paul is saying throughout what they should seek, but they sought the least of all, whereinn the apostle compares that to babihood, uncertain sounds, not to be doing it. And we should know logically, that when it is the HS, the HS would of necessity provide an interpreter. Look up the word Corinthians, a liscentious man about town. Paul says of these that that they are boastful, and there is cause for Paul to defend himself on many occassions.
Let us look at one of them, but it should go without saying that those at Corinth were the dregs of Paganism, automatically requiring the the strenght of gentile grace, which we find abundantly in Paul, being 'thourghly furnished'...:
2Co 11:17 That which I speak, I speak it not after the Lord, but as it were foolishly, in this confidence of boasting.
2Co 11:18 Seeing that many glory after the flesh, I will glory also.
2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.
And he moves into it, saying he has reason to boast, but he is a fool in so doing. Paul is telling them to grow up at every level of interface. At the first, he speaks to the apostate Paganized believing Jews, certainly those never knowing the true God were no better:
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
The theme of 12-14 is that there are the better things to seek, seek the best things therefore. Actually, it runs throughout the entire Scriptures. Abraham sought a better country, &c...
They were not being incouraged to speak in tongues. It is vital to realize that the word means a language not naturally attained.
Normally, what would one have to do to learn another language, and how long would it take? Well, appearently, God needed some individuals to speak to the Jews right away, so giving them the gift to convince the Jew to repent and turn to truth. Is there any other stated purpose for them to supernaturally aquire a language they didn't naturally have? Any verses at all showing God had another purpose for it?
And in John's epistles, the formulae is given to test the spirits. Not to test the person, but the spirits. Any person can deny Christ is the Son of God, meaning God in the flesh, but the spirit of evil cannot do that, that high place is reserved for Satan to them.
Even the deamons recognized Jesus Christ as the true One Lord:
Mar 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32 And he said unto them, Go.
Mar 1:34 And he healed many that were sick of divers diseases, and cast out many devils; and suffered not the devils to speak, because they knew him.
Clearly, there no instruction, nor evidence that the Pentacostal gifts were to divided up for later yet to be revealed church where Israel plays no part as a nation. We should expect the same result to be present if the Lord was using those gifts today, we should expect Israel to be being called, angels, miracles, signs, wonders, healings with none refused for any reason, raising of the dead, poisonous serpent bites harmless, and even more than that:
And we are talking of the annointing of the Holy Spirit here, right? So, what was it really like to have the annointing of the Holy Spirit laid upon a person? Let us believe what the apostles writes of this and see if it is truth for today or truth for that dispensation when Israel's hope was in view:
1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Me? I have need that man teach me. I do not know all things. I must search with prayerful and studious diligence. I haven't recieved the HS. I haven't rejected Him. I have been changed into another man, renewed day by day, washed in the water of the word, for there is There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all.
The church is to unity as the kingdom was dividing every man severally as He will.
Are the supernatural gifts listed in the list provided to the church called His body, and was Paul still able to heal abundantly after Acts, when the secret was made known?
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
epouraniois writes quote:
1Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. {bold by BORN AGAIN}
In the KJV, the phrase, “unknown tongue” appears, but the word "unknown" is in italics, unknown, which means that it did not exist in the original Greek manuscript but was added by the translators of the English KJV.
So just by removing the italicized word unknown from the KJV text, a more accurate understanding of what Paul intended can possibly be discovered. So let me delete this word "unknown" from the KJV text below:
1 Corinthians 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might teach others also, than ten thousands words in a tongue {Greek, glossa}.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Gifts of the Church which is His Body, and The One Faith:
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
And that is what was happening, they were speaking to Israel in the language of Israel. No one is naive enough to believe that they spoke gibberish and the Jews said, well, it must be God, this gentile is babbling and I cannot understand a word he says. Would what we see today really convert an apostate Jew towards the Godly repentance? No way.
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
Paul has just said those who speak without understanding are children, telling them to grow up, be men.
The church of the One Body has a different membership than those who preached to the Jews, endowed with power from on high. The members of this Body are few, although many are called. We are in Ephesians, chapter 4, the practical outworking and walk of the believer who has mastered the first 3 chapters of Ephesians are made known; the period of the hope of the Kingdom that was preached in the Acts are no longer in view, Israel has been set aside, God has revealed a secret and further outworking of His plan. We know that no one during the Acts were told of this secret, because it had not then been made known until later. But now, (Col 1:25-27), Paul writing: is made a ‘minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God;’ Literally, to fill full the word of God, ‘which was the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ among you, the hope of glory’. The KJV says ‘in you’, but should read, ‘Christ among you, the hope of glory’. That Christ would now be among the nations was not made known. That Israel would not be God’s people was made known. Always before the gentiles were to be blessed through Israel as the chosen channel to bring the nations to God. Now Christ will be among the nations. Israel is set amidst them, scattered, the city destroyed.
‘Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:’ (Eph 4:8-14)
To begin: He ascended up on high, and passed thru all heavens, where at this time He is not manifest, but when He does manifest, or ‘appear’ as it is often rendered, we shall be manifest with Him in glory. (Col 3:3-4) We read we ‘are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God’. ‘When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory’. So, He is not manifest, no one can see Him, He is hid in God. Whether powers or principalities or thrones or dominions, He is not presently manifest, but far above all. Now, when He ascended, He first descended. I believe this to mean, not Mat27:52-3, rather John 14:13, sending His HS during the Acts so ’works that I do shall ye do also; and greater works than these shall ye do; because I go unto my Father. Both Christ and the Comforter being but separate applications of the self same ‘advocate’. And we saw the apostles do this very work.
After He descended, He then ‘ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things’. The ‘gift’ He gave to this church is for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, for the perfecting of those saints who are members of the one Body. These are not the same gifts in view for the purpose established and set-aside during the Acts.
At this present time, the members of this church are dead to the things of this world, as our ‘life is hid with Christ in God’. You won't see them on TV, there is no cental headquarters, and we arrive at what we came here for:
’Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:’ (Eph 4:13)
Notice the emphasis here, ‘till we all come’. And what is the goal? ‘Unto a perfect man’. Not babes, but into ‘a perfect man, unto the measure’, and we always have a measure, that’s the standard by which we go. Now, our measure is not our Pastor, or neighbor, or someone we happen to see, or a great orator. Our measure is ‘of the stature of the fullness of Christ’.
That’s our measure, we can’t go by man, or by ideas, or the signs or ideals of the times. We go by the scriptures. Coming to the unity of the Faith, that’s our coming to the knowledge of God, as we learn of the Unity of the Spirit in the Bond of the Peace, which leads up to this perfection. We don’t have clicks and divisions and that sort of thing among those who know God. All those things come because of a lack of knowledge. They are a good sign of a lack of knowledge. It gives a good look at what’s going on in the minds of man[kind]. This brings us back to ch.2:15, the creation of ‘one new man’. This is not the evolution of Christendom we find so popular today, but an entirely new body of believers. This thorough knowledge of God carries the transforming power of God. In some cases it brings the acknowledgement of Christ, but in the case of the scribes and Pharisees, they knew the word, they knew the signs, but they never moved a step towards him. We have a lot of people like that today. There are a lot of people who know about the dispensational outworking of God’s expanding frontier, and they can quote chapter and verse, and they believe in God; but it has never brought them to the full knowledge of Christ which is the Head of the church which is His body, therefore, they do not acknowledge Him.
The perfect man, in v. 13 is aner, a different Greek word than is usual. It means husband. Specifically, a full grown husband man. And the perfect man here, has no need for milk, or childish things, but rather is able to take strong meat. Being in the very fullness of Christ, he can discern spiritual things. And here is the measure of the standard of growth, to ‘the stature of the fullness of Christ’.
All other standards are no good, there is only one standard. In the prayer in chapter 3:14-21, the goal is that they might be filled with all the fullness of God, and here then is the goal, to be filled up to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ. To be washed in the water of His Word. This is where the work of Pastors and teachers comes in. This is the mission, to preach Christ as the head of the church of the dispensation of the mystery. That all may come to the acknowledgment of the fellowship of the mystery – Eph3. 9. This then, this stature, this measure, will bring about a maturity that will be far above all that was taught about Jesus of Nazareth and His earthly tabernacle. All desires of the flesh, seeking preeminence and the praise of men retire into the background under the knowledge of the light of the Son of God. There is no place there, for self. The perfect man, seeks to exalt Christ, not his own self.
Just suppose that the members of the Church of the Mystery were to try an make an organization here on earth, who dare proceed to be its head? Who would to usurp, or take the place of Christ? When Paul taught during the Acts he said he wasn’t one wit behind the other apostles, but when he came into the knowledge of the mystery of the church which is His Body, he said he was the least of all the saints. He no longer had any authority, but became a vessel to teach the gospel of the mystery.
You can readily see why the members do not seek to have a church on the earth, having membership in the Church of the Mystery is sufficient; being filled with the fullness of God, leaves nothing of that kind to be desired. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
’THAT we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;’ (Eph 4:14)
Notice the word ‘THAT’; come to the perfect man, ‘that’, and there is the contrast, THAT we…be no more children, WITH all the divisions, THE enmity, THE carnal ways of THE things of this world. Notice the Corinthians were called babes because they were carnal. They had need of the milk of the word, and not strong meat, or food for adults, they couldn’t take it. They had fleshly desires, divisions, and even incest. We see this spirit today, among carnal Christians, running after all new things, healing campaigns, prophetic rackets, and all that is sensational, appealing to the senses and carnal man. This is not the mature man, as is those of the Mystery Body.
Those who know the mystery do not promote divisions, sensational programs, or do things for the Nethinim’s who are always looking for something new. Our mind is stayed on Christ, who is the head. It’s so sad, to see so many babes tossed about on so many winds of so many doctrines. They seek after a sign. They do not know they have little faith. They never get settled on any one thing, they flip flop from one thing to another. If people would just stay at home and read their Bible, they would probably get a lot more out of it than if they’d listened to men. And this instability is easily taken advantage of by such men that are crafty, who make themselves rich by praying on such folks, showing them what they can get, what they can do in this world. There is a continual drain on the finance to build church buildings and more things of this world, all done in the name of Christ. And to many such, if He were to come, would say to such men, I never knew you.
The ‘sleight of men’ is significant, as it means to play dice with the word of God. We get our word ‘dice’ from ‘cubelo’, or as we read it here, ‘sleight’. But back of all the deceptions is the great deceiver. Satan goes to church. He has his workers there, instilling the old doubts, ‘hath God said’?, and everybody is substituting their word for God’s word, their stories for God's examples, they can improve on it, re interpret it; God must have meant something else and all of that nonsense.
So the church which is His body, you will not see, for he has no part in these systems of worship, with their glamour and appeal to the fleshly desires. The Body of this Church is intimately connected to the Head, and that Head has its unity all ready made far above all in the heavenly places. Man cannot make this unity here, and these members do not attempt to duplicate it. We have no need of anything that is a mere picture of reality, as we have Christ as the Head, the energizer of life. In building of the temple of Solomon, there was no sound of the hammer of any other thing, as all the construction was done away from sight, every part, jointly measured together somewhere else, so that when they were brought to the temple site, they were ready to fit. And therein we have a picture of the framing together of this body of Christ which is silently growing in the world today, built upon, that is, on top of the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone . The world isn’t aware of it. All this fitting together isn’t found in the works of the flesh towards the desire of this unity, for this unity is in the Spirit, and the growth is in love.
The reason God set aside the 70 nations in Genesis 10-11, and chose another one, is they turned from the truth in unrighteousness. Is that being done, yet today? For when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful. They became vain, empty, in their imaginations, their foolish heart was darkened, while professing themselves to be wise, they worshiped the lowest and vilest things instead of their creator. So their creator gave them up, to uncleanness. He gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient. Up until the time of Paul, these nations were led away by these dumb idols even unto the fashion of the day. They walked in the vanity, the emptiness of their mind. They had their understanding darkened, they were alienated from the life of God, they were ignorant, fools, their hearts were blinded. They had come to the place where they were without feeling, they had given themselves over to lasciviousness, every imagination of their heart only evil, they worked all uncleanness with greediness. Can you imagine that? In all these things we see the work and walk in the flesh. Satan is not mentioned in this chapter of Romans, the flesh is bad enough in of itself, but when Satan does finally take over this flesh, and energize it, empower it, then, will be a real time of trouble such as this earth has never seen.
The saint is not to walk as these gentiles walked and have walked in the past.
‘This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,’ (Eph 4:17)
It is sad to say, that there are many Christians who do mind earthly things, and do not set their affections on things above. They do not hesitate to call God done to them, ever seeking to what God can do for them. They do not know this. They seek self comfort. True is hard to bear. We cannot do it ourselves. The flesh cannot please God. As Paul says in Philippians, they worship their belly Gods , and their glory is in their shame, and they become enemies of the cross. Mark those who do these things, and do not, as the apostle Paul has said, he’s given us warning. And let us take heed.
‘Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
But ye have not so learned Christ;’ (Eph 4:20)
Now this ignorance is in contrast with ‘learned’, and those are miles apart. This ignorance arose from a darkened understanding and a blindness of hearts. Paul’s great desire and goal, was the complete knowledge of Christ.
You know what it cost Paul? It cost him the world. Some might say they’d give anything to have the happiness and glory of the knowledge of the LORD. Well, that’s what it’ll cost. When Paul had learned Christ, he also learned something else. He learned that within him, dwelt no good thing. That is, his old nature, the one inherited from Adam, dwelt no good thing, so he then repudiated the flesh and sought to walk after the Spirit.
1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Are the verses believable? Do we really believe them? Are we rightly dividing the word of truth when we apply all things to ourselves? Are we not able to discern the reason why God does His different things with His different peoples? Trust in the Lord. It is better than to put confidence in men. Be the Berean, search and see.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
I believe that the Gifts of the Spirit are in operation today.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
The Pentacostal commission was completed as stated at the end of Mark16. Till the end of Acts all the signs following, the Lord working with were in place and functioning as evidenced in Acts28, where the apostle would soon speak for the last time to Israel, which hope he was in bonds for.
At the onset of the apostles further commission, the preaching of the mystery and the dispensation of the grace of God, a new list is provied *Eph4*, showing 1Cor13 that things would cease, by that plus the fact Paul could no longer heal his dearest companions of their infirmiries, which surely killed them.
They received 40 day Bible seminar from the risen Lord Himself, as evidenced at the onset of Acts, after in Luke24 has supernaturally opened the eyes of their understanding.
There is no evidence that the gifts surrounding Israel throughout the OT, & continuing through the Acts to shew God had not foresaken them, but instead forgave them and offered the time of refreshing and the receiving of their kingdom with Christ as the great Lord/King/Priest only required them to have the after mind to see the truth and turn back to the Lord whom they had forsaken.
When the 12 spoke by by power on high, every man had traveled to Jerusalem for the regular anual Pentacostal feast. The women stood outside the synogague. Every man heard the 12 speak in his own dialect:
Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
language
G1258
διάλεκτος
dialektos
dee-al'-ek-tos
From G1256; a (mode of) discourse, that is, “dialect”: - language, tongue.
Clearly ALL of the gifts listed in Mark16 are not evident at the time present. They have been set aside till the Lord takes up His work with the Nation of Israel again as in Rev2, 3, 7. There was a specific purpose for certain gifts. That God would use gentiles to provoke Israel to that she might bear her fruit is prophecy.
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
if I may bump this forward, it is a new semester, and this is one of my classes on this Christian Internet University (CBBS). ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
I currently believe the following about tongues.
In the KJV, the phrase, “unknown tongue” appears, but the word unknown is in italics, which means that it did not exist in the original Greek manuscript but was added by the translators of the English KJV.
So just by removing the italicized word unknown from the KJV text, a more accurate understanding of what Paul intended can possibly be discovered. So let me delete this word unknown from the KJV text below:
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue speaks, not unto men, but unto God; for no man understands; howbeit in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
And that is also what happened at Pentecost: the Galileans spoke, NOT unto men, but unto GOD, since they were magnifying God:
Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 2:6
Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because each of them heard {the Galileans} speak in his own language.
Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongue the wonderful works of God.
This word tongue is always the Greek word glossa, which means the physical tongue, and by extension also a language, just as English has the phrase, “his spoke in his native tongue.”
Acts 2:6
Now when it was noised abroad, the multitude came together and were confounded, because they heard them {the Galileans} speak in his own language.
This word language is the Greek word dialektos, from which English gets the word dialect, which, like tongue or glossa refers to a normal, earthly language:
Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongue the wonderful works of God.
When the tongue of a Christian is loosened by the Holy Spirit in this way, the Holy Spirit apparently always magnifies God, as Paul also said:
1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue {Greek, glossa} speaks, not to men, but to God; for no man understands; howbeit he speaks mysteries in the spirit.
The Holy Spirit possesses a number of talents, and as Paul says, some Christians receive the gift enabling them to be apostles, other prophets, and so on, as is written in 1 Corinthians 12:29-30:
1 Corinthians 12:29
Are all apostles? {The answer is, Not all are apostles} Are all prophets? {The answer is, Not all are prophets} Are all teachers? {No, not all} Are all workers of miracles? {No}
1 Corinthians 12:30
Have all the gifts of healing? {No} Do all speak with tongues {Greek, glossa}? {The answer is, No, not all speak in tongues} Do all interpret {Greek, diermeneuo}? {No, not all interpret}
So this establishes firmly that not all Christians will be able to speak with tongues or will be able to interpret, because it is a talent or gift of the Holy Spirit, given to Christians by the Holy Spirit, and is not generated by the flesh.
Therefore, it should never be asserted that one must speak in tongues as a sign that one has received the Holy Spirit, because speaking in tongues is just one of the gifts of the Spirit.
Another gift of the Spirit was interpreting or translating, as Paul describes below:
1 Corinthians 14:9
So likewise you, unless you utter words which can be easily understood, how shall it be known what is being spoken? For you shall speak into the air.
14:13
Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue {Greek, glossa} pray that he may interpret.
This word interpret is the common Greek word diermeneuo, which means to translate. So for instance, in Acts 9:36, the writer takes time to translate the name Tabitha into Dorcas for us:
Acts 9:36
Now there as at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha (who by interpretation {Greek, diermeneuo} is called Dorcas ) ...
In the beginning years of my Christianity, I was often told that I should be speaking in tongues as the evidence that I have received the Holy Spirit, and a number of times I was invited into a side room where I was told to sit in a chair, while some “prayer warriors” laid their hands on my head and often said to me, “Now speak whatever comes up, even if it’s only a syllable at first.”
But I knew that when the Holy Spirit came upon the Galileans, the Galileans immediately spoke a complete glossa or language. But according to these fellows, it would come one syllable at a time at first.
But I did not dare to speak out even one syllable to them, because I could not tell whether it was coming from my own flesh or from the Holy Spirit. So I never said anything.
Now, since miraculously speaking in a foreign language was one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit for some Christians, as established above, there are thus some Christians out there who had the genuine experience of miraculously magnifying God in a foreign earthly language which they had never learned. And with that miraculous foreign language, they magnified God.
Erroneously thinking that everyone should speak with a tongue or glossa when the Spirit came upon them at the time of believing, these Christians then tried to reproduce their own experience as best they could, while at the same time telling new babes in Christ that they also must speak in this miraculous language or glossa in order to know that the Holy Spirit has come upon them.
They then tried to reproduce that wonderful language experience themselves, but this time with the help of the flesh, and since the flesh knows nothing about spiritual things, these Christians had to pull these syllables out of their own flesh, starting with the first syllables that seemed to come up: Bah bah, mahaha, alakaha karoshin, Bah bah, mahaha, bah bah ... and more of the same.
One linguistics expert from UCLA analyzed the so-called “tongue-speaking” of these Christians, and the linguist expert noticed that all the syllables spoken by these “tongue-speaking” Christians were resident in the native language of the Christian speaker.
That is, the “tongue” or “language” of a Chinese “tongue-speaker” only contained Chinese syllables, and the “tongue” of the Russian “tongue-speaker” only contained Russian syllables, and so on, with every tongue speaker on earth using only their native language’s syllables.
That is an important discovery because if these “tongue-speaking” Christians were all speaking a “heavenly language” which was generated by the Holy Spirit, then every believer would be using syllables which were not resident in their native languages.
That is, they would all be speaking with the syllables of heaven, the language of angels, so to speak. For how many languages are spoken in heaven? Only one, right?
In addition, it is important to note that most of these “tongues” or so-called “prayer languages” use a string of syllables which often repeat themselves, such as: Bah bah, maha, alaha karoshin, bah bah, mahaha, bah bah karoshin, or whatever. In this string, the syllables “bah bah” repeat themselves three times.
But if someone then stands up and interprets or translates what had just been said by the “tongue-speaking” Christian, then the interpretation or translation does not repeat any syllables at all and every word of the translation is different, eventhough the “string of syllables” contained many repetitions of the same syllable, as for instance in, Bah bah, maha, alakaha karoshin, Bah bah, maha, bah bah.
Since in language translation Bah is Bah now and remains Bah no matter where it is located in the sentence, the interpretation of Bah bah should also have repeated the translation of bah bah three times, and it never does, and that is against the law of translation.
I think however that this gift of miraculously magnifying God in a foreign language is still being used by God, but occurs to perform a specific task for the Lord.
For instance, the Lord could use it in the following scenario. I am a Christian tourist or missionary in Russia, and I am on a train, and suddenly the Spirit comes on me and I magnify God in Russian, and the Russians on the train hear it.
When the Russians try to speak to me in Russian, they discover that I do not speak Russian at all, and they are amazed and they perceive that I spoke in a glossa or language which I don’t normally speak and they see it was a miracle and they praise God as a result.
Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled ...
And a miraculous translation or diermeneuo would occur if a Russian Christian now miraculously translated back to me in English what I had said in Russian, when this Russian Christian normally does not speak English. Miracle No. 2 has occurred, and the Russians on board the train glorify God and believe.
It would probably also be instructive to add what happened when the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles assembled at Cornelius’s house, when the Hebrews Peter and some of the other Hebrew disciples were preaching Jesus to the people assembled at Cornelius’s house:
Acts 10:44
And while Peter yet spoke these words {concerning Jesus to them}, the Holy Spirit fell on all them who heard the word.
10:45
And they of the circumcision who were believers {meaning, the Hebrew Peter and the Hebrew disciples who had come with Peter} were astonished, as many as had come with Peter, because on the Gentiles was also poured out the gift of Holy Spirit.
10:46
For they {Peter and his Jewish friends} heard them speak with tongues {Greek, glossa} and magnify God.
This miracle was performed by the Lord, not only for the Gentiles, but even more so for the Hebrew Peter and for the Hebrew disciples with Peter.
Peter still needed to be astonished into understanding that in the kingdom of God, the worshippers would no longer be only national Israelites , but would now include:
Acts 10:35
But in every nation he or she who fears Him, and works righteousness, is accepted by Him.
Always a purpose, always a work to be done by the Lord.
But let me see now if all this fits with 1 Corinthians 14:13ff:
14:13
Therefore let he who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.
14:14
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
14:15
What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, but I will pray with the understanding also.
14:16
For else, when you shall bless with the spirit, how shall he who occupies the room of the unlearned say Amen at your giving of thanks, seeing he does not understand what you are saying.
14:17
For you truly give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
14:18
I thank my God that I speak with tongues {Greek, glossa} more than you all.
14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that I might teach others also, than ten thousands words in a tongue {Greek, glossa}.
14:21
For in the law it is written, I will speak with other tongues and other lips to this people; and yet for all that they will not hear me.
What was again the purpose of this speaking with other tongues? It was that the many would believe that Yeshua was the Son of God and that the kingdom of God was at hand. But for all that, they would hear the Lord me.
Lastly, it is not uncommon for a “tongue-speaking” pastor or teacher to say to his congregation, “Let’s now all lift our voices and pray in our heavenly language to the Lord”.
But this directly contradicts what Paul said should be done:
1 Corinthians 14:27:
If any man speaks in a tongue, let it be by two, or at most by three, and that, by course {meaning, one after the other, not at the same time}; and let one interpret {Greek, diermeneuo}.
1 Corinthians 14:28
But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silent in the church; but let him speak to himself and to God.
God bless, BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
