|
Author
|
Topic: I would like to ask for some help understanding.
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
President Eisenhower's farewell address to the nation, January 1961
"In the counsels of Government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the Military Industrial Complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists, and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."
Listen to the entire speech
http://www.disclosureproject.org/videogallery.htm
http://www.disclosureproject.org/
IP: Logged | 
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Suprise suprise, but the answer of the beginning of sorrows is answering when shall be the end of the age, but bigger still, is the fact that the US Gov is headed by leaders and cabinets who ALL work for the EU, and are under direct blood relation of the Queen. Every president this country has had, since at least Harry S. Truman was murdered who wasn't a blood descendant and under direct control of the Queen accept for one.
That one was Clinton. Most do not understand the occult. Occult, the word means hidden things. And everyone in the know, was well aware of what it meant when the actions done right in our face:
Reagan, when he took the Oath of Office, faced the obelisk, indicating that this country will ultimately have a concordat.
Columbia has a concordat with the Pope. A concordat is a treaty with the Pope. Hitler had a concordat. Mussolini had a concordat. Franco had a concordat. They want to set up a concordat here, which was the reason for Reagan formally recognizing the sovereign state of Vatican City in 1984.
So, they had a concordat. Columbia has a concordat. Do you think that drugs running out of Columbia, with a country that has a concordat with Rome, is not controlled by Rome? If Rome didn’t want the drug trade out of Columbia, they’d end the concordat. The whole drug trade is run by high Mafia families out of the country of Columbia, subject to the Jesuit General.
And the Jesuit General ran the Opium trade, a couple of centuries ago, out of China. They ran the silk trade, the pearl trade. The movie Shogun is but a slight scratching of the surface of the Jesuit "black ships" that trafficked in all of this silk and pearls and gold and opals and everything they could pull out of the East, including opium.
The Vietnam War was to consolidate and control this huge massive drug-trade that would inundate every American city with drugs, being brought in by the CIA with their Air America, and then distributed by the Trafficante family throughout the United States—Santos Trafficante out of Miami.
So we have the Mafia and the CIA working together in the drug trade. We have the Mafia and the CIA working together in the assassination of Kennedy.
The first reason why the Jesuit General [at that time, Jean-Baptist Janssens] wanted Kennedy out of the way was because he was going to end the Vietnam War.
The second reason is, he wanted to end the reign of the CIA, because the CIA had betrayed him in the person of McGeorge Bundy, by not giving the cover to the Cuban patriots to retake Cuba from that Roman Catholic, Jesuit-trained, grease-ball, Nazi—Fidel Castro.
The third reason is that he wanted to stop the money changers, he wanted to put America back under the silver standard and print our own money.
Kennedy was betrayed by the CIA at the Bay of Pigs invasion, which sacrificed all the patriots on the shores of the Bay of Pigs there, so Castro had no real opposition. This was the same tactic, used by the CIA and the KGB at the top, working together with Angleton controlling it, in the Hungarian Revolution, when the CIA fomented that revolution, and then betrayed all of those patriots into the hands of the Soviet army and KGB, which infuriated certain top CIA officials.
It’s the same tactic: you raise up a revolution and you sacrifice the men who truly want to resist. When that happened, when McGeorge Bundy stopped the air cover of the Bay of Pigs invasion, that ended that resistance to Castro and it enthroned him into power. And, of course, it was meant to be by the Jesuits because they HAD trained him. So now Kennedy looks bad. He’s got egg all over his face. What does he want to do? He signs a Memorandum, according to Fletcher Prouty, and takes all of the power away from the CIA, and gives it to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The CIA was built by the Knights of Malta. One of the founders of the CIA was "Wild" Bill Donovan, an Irish Roman Catholic, who are the most fanatical, and his brother was a Dominican priest, Vincent. So, the CIA was founded by this high Roman Catholic, the first head, to solidify the Catholic or the Vatican control of it.
I’m not against the Catholic people; I’m against Rome’s hierarchy. The American Catholic people know NOTHING of what’s going on. And if they did, there would be a march on St. Patrick’s tomorrow morning. So, as I’m against the hierarchy, I’m showing that Kennedy was against the Vietnam War, and he was going to do away with the CIA.
Well, the Jesuits had brought in all of their top Nazi SS soldiers into the CIA because the Jesuits were using the SS to kill the Jews in Europe. When the Einsatzgruppen went into Russia, the Jesuits followed with the SS and purged Western Russia of all its Jews. That’s why Stalin deliberately killed 40,000 of his best officers. That’s why he kicked out his best generals, purged them, because he wanted to make sure that the Red Army would lose with the advance of the German army, because following that would come the SS and purge Russia of the Jews that Stalin so hated. And by the way, justice is often poetic because Stalin’s daughter married a Jew.
Now, the CIA was composed of the SS. The CIA now was an arm—and the intelligence arm—of the Vatican. The Knights of Malta were throughout. Casey was a Knight of Malta. Angleton was a Knight of Malta. The Knights were through and through. Angleton manned the "Vatican desk", and that is a desk within the CIA that has a direct link to the Vatican.
So, Kennedy wanted to end this "intelligence community". That was the end of him. Speaking on the end, since the CIA coup failed, and they have been trying to assasinated Chavez, who, like Kennedy, wanted to return his people their country and their countries resources to them.
Thus for anyone attempting to end the CIA, and attempting to end the Vietnam War, and also because he attacked the Jesuits’ Federal Reserve Bank by printing United States Notes, they got rid of him. They killed our only Roman Catholic president.
Well, in the book that Crowley wrote in 1912, he says that Taft and Teddy Roosevelt were all cow-towing to the Pope and the Cardinals of New York. And he said they’re going to use our military to restore the Pope’s temporal power around the world.
And THAT was absolutely correct. That is American foreign policy. And the Council of Trent is the American foreign policy of today. That’s what’s going on in Serbia and Bosnia. It’s the Council of Trent—the Jesuits using the American Air Force to bomb those orthodox people to smithereens. But, that was Crowley’s great contribution.
Next, Emmett McLaughlin wrote several books. He wrote The People’s Padre; he wrote Crime And Immorality In The Catholic Church, showing that Catholic nations are more lawless and more criminal than Protestant nations, and he proved it with statistics from the jails.
Emmett McLaughlin also wrote another book called The Assassination Of Abraham Lincoln, where he, again, shows that Lincoln was assassinated by the Jesuits. So, Emmett McLaughlin came out of the Catholic Church. To my knowledge, he never was born again. He never was saved, but he did tell the truth. He married a nun, and lived a virtuous and honorable life after he left.
The last one was, of course, Alberto Rivera, who was greatly hated by the Vatican because he was a very high Jesuit who came out and, in the late ’60s, about 1969, exposed the power of Rome in the ecumenical movement, that Rome controlled Kathryn Kuhlman; that Rome controlled Billy Graham; that Rome controlled, virtually, our government—Ronald Reagan.
Reagan, when he took the Oath of Office, faced the obelisk, indicating that this country will ultimately have a concordat. So, Alberto Rivera converted to Christ, wonderfully, and he started a ministry called The Anti-Christ Information Center, out of Los Angeles.
Our Masonic forefathers were merely following the details of the occult plan as envisioned specifically by Sir Francis Bacon in the 1590's, operating according to the vision provided him by his Guiding Spirit. Also in the same article we see that the The White House (President's House) -- "... the President's House was the first public building to be erected in Washington, D.C.
A letter submitted 'by a gentleman' to a Charleston newspaper offers the only surviving eyewitness version of the Masonic cornerstone laying, which was held on Saturday, October 13, 1792, when the Georgetown Lodge No. 9 of Maryland gathered for the ceremony." [Ovason, P. 62] Also as the story of Washington, D.C., unfolds, we will be forced to the conclusion that the 13 approximately straight lines of avenues which L'Enfant planned for the city were symbolic of the stripes of the national flag, laid out to receive the impress of the stars." [Ovason, P. 66] Further, July 4 is exactly 13 days after Summer Solstice on June 21. In this calculation, June 22 is counted as 'Day 1'. The number 13 is the number of Satan's rebellion, and figures prominently in Luciferian lore. But, now, David Ovason tells us something new about the Declaration of Independence. "These [Astrological] computations clearly show that on the day the Declaration of Independence was agreed in Philadelphia, the Sun was on Sirius ." [Page 138] Thus, our occult Masonic Founding Fathers calculated even the day when they should agree on the wording of the Declaration of Independence. This day was one in which the Sun was on Sirius. This careful attention to the timing of the events which succeeded in founding this nation were predetermined according to Astrological phenomenon! Ovason then clearly states, "The Mason who first signed the Declaration of Independence would have been aware of the particular significance of July 4 as a cosmic event."
Commander-in-Chief will face the sacred Egyptian obelisk, known as the Washington Monument, and take the inaugural omens.
The pyramid-shaped top of the structure has two windows that are illuminated with red light at night, and the effect is like two glowing red eyes overlooking the city. This 555 foot piece of masonry sometimes casts an ominous shadow across the reflecting pool toward the capitol building, and it is the first object that the sun strikes as it rises over this occult city in the District of Columbia. It is also interesting to note that if you convert the 555 feet of height into inches, it comes out to 6660, which reveals the number of the beast imbedded in the sacred geometry of the structure.
Bush who rules from the White House which the cornerstone was laid by a Masonic Ritual on Saturday, October 13, 1792, when the Georgetown Lodge No. 9 of Maryland gathered for the ceremony, which is surrounded by 13 approximately straight lines of avenues which L'Enfant planned for the city which were symbolic of the stripes of the national flag, laid out to receive the impress of the stars, which is also is laid out in a Satanic Pentagram. The south point which represents where the spirit of Satan is to dwell. The new Commander-in-Chief faced the sacred Egyptian obelisk, known as the Washington Monument, and took the inaugural omens and when you convert the 555 feet of height into inches, it comes out to 6660, which reveals the number of the beast imbedded in the sacred geometry of the structure. Whom our leaders have allowed the Illuminati to divide The United States into seven different regions geographically. Each region has a 13 member leadership council that coordinates with the local leadership councils.
When Reagan faced the oblisk, it was the first president to do so. The occultists all over the world new exactly what this meant. It meant that the anti, instead of Christ would would take control of the government of the world under the next administration.
That didn't happen. God had stepped in with His countermovement. The Clinton, an outsider, well groomed, but an outsider to the Satanic deceptions would be killed if he could not uphold the one world government Lucifarian plan.
Clinton was made well aware of this. Clinton showed the secret government that he was able to pass the torch to the next president who in turn is expected to bring forth the instead of christ.
Clinton showed the occult world by taking his oath facing the oblisk.
Now Bush is in office again, and all his cabinet and chief of staff are the same people who worked under his father.
This country was taken over by Nazi's long ago.
Behind the Senate floor podium, on eigher side of the flag, we have two huge symbols of Fascism hanging.
What are they doing there?
Don't be deceived. It IS happening.
By the way, the Bush family owned the first business's to be confiscated in the Nazi war for war crimes assisting the Nazi's. They were shipping gold bars and also supplying petro to Germany. Rather than arresting the Bushs', the government paid them millions of dollars for their trouble.
But this was all controlled from the Vatican.
Go down to the local Best Buy, purchase the cnn 911 dvd. slow it down frame by frame, and watch the missles being fired by the non passenger flight into the twin towers. We all have this information, but it is so horrible our brains do not want to acknowledge it. Severe trauma is something our brains naturally filter out.
George Bush, Jr. with complete allegiance to Rome, just like his father - His grandfather helped set up the CFR. His uncle is a Knight of Malta. They’ve already chosen him in the College of Cardinals. Everything else is a show. Jesuit-trained Buchanan is a show. Roman Catholic McCain is a show. The Supreme Court is just a rubber stamp and more centralization of power in the hands of the President He becomes the king. The courts are nothing more than the courts of the king’s bench. The Federal Reserve Bank will remain in power. Everything will be monitored and controlled by Washington, but out of the EU. The English word Court is the Latin word Bank. Check it out. Some people need to wake up and get in touch with what is going on if they don't wish to remain deceived.
Pennsylvania is COMPLETELY controlled by the Jesuits. What is the definition of the term Jesuits? Universal Absolutism.
That means worldwide, universal, over every nation, absolute power. Absolutism is their great doctrine, that absolute power resides in the hands of the General. He is limited by no constitution. He is limited by no law.
This is the Great Doctrine of Divine Right, the Divine Right of Kings that was so fought against by the Calvinists. We Bible-believing Calvinists believe in the Rule of Law. The Law is king. Rutherford’s "Lex Rex". The Jesuits believe the king is the law—Louis XIV: "I am the law". So, it’s going to be a universal, world-wide king who, himself, is the law. All authority will be in him, as he rules the world from Jerusalem, as the Beast.
Did you know David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations is quoted as saying the following "No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a LUCIFERIAN Initiation."
These folks are serious people.
"Folks globalization is the New World Order and it is already here. This is the reign of the Anti-Christ foretold in Revelations. The only reason he hasn't reveled himself yet is because of those of us still here that will know him for what he is. Buckle your seat belts because its going to be a rough ride for some of you."
First we have tribulation, then we have Great Tribulation when Satan arrives defacto, showing himself that he is God.
You wanna understand something about our real technologies, how they are being used, and used against our weather as military weapons are being used, how we are being 'dumbed down' as a race by the waves that fill our skies? here is a starter:
http://www.think-aboutit.com/Misc/haarp_vandalism_in_the_sky.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/populationcontrolagenda2.htm
http://www.globalresearch.ca/
http://www.benabraham.com/html/illuminati_-_666.html
http://www.disclosureproject.org/cosmicdeception.htm
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/destruction_of_the_trade_centers.htm
A military coalition has launched itself into an unbridled exploitation of the world’s resources and energy reserves. Fuelled by neo-conservatives, it has increased its attacks, practicing all forms of interference, from forcing changes in regimes to colonial-style expansionism. This coalition continually violates the principles of international law as they were established by the conference of the Hague and laid out in the San Francisco Charter.
This group masks its ambitions by intoxicating the media and by deceiving international organizations. It practices a double standard by unjustly accusing those who stand in their way of not respecting the rules whilst violating them themselves. The coalition betrays democratic ideals when claiming to serve them through military occupation. - by Axis for Peace
Eisenhower tried to warn of the ensuing Military Industrial Complex
IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Watcher:
IF we are NOw in the Tribulation...where is the antichrist? You know the one that will rule the WHOLE world?
The Bible teaches that in the end times, right before the return of Jesus, the greatest political leader in the history of Mankind will emerge from Europe. After taking over that area by diplomatic cunning and deceit, he will launch a military campaign that will result in his acquiring "authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation" (Revelation 13:7). His empire will be the most extensive in all of history, encompassing the entire world, and his rule will be the most demonic the world has ever experienced.
I can't answer for the other poster. I don't think we are in the tribulation right now, I think we are in the Birth Pains Jesus talked about and the Beginning of Sorrows.
I did want to add that in my believing that some of the 7 seals have already been opened that I do not see the the 1st Seal with the rider on the white horse as the anitchrist. I believe that the rider on the white horse is the Holy Spirit promised to come by Jesus, and it signifies that the Church is riding.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
There is a difference between the tribulation and the great tribulation, for there is only one parable that is given the instruction to 'learn'. It is a parable of the fig tree, by which the generation thereof shall in no wise pass till all things be fulfilled. The subject?
3 questions:
Mat 24:3 ...
when shall these things be?
and
what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and
of the end of the world?
These 3 questions are answered inversely, that is to say question 3 is answered first, question 1 is answered last:
Mat 24:32 responds to question 2.
The whole period covered by "the day of the Lord" is called the final meeting of the ages, or the (...) (sunteleia); but, the crisis in which it culminates is called the (...) (telos), the end of the age.
Both are rendered "end" in the New Testament, but the use of these two words must be carefully distinguished.
Sunteleia denotes a finishing or ending together, or in conjunction with other things. Consummation is perhaps the best English rendering. It implies that several things meet together, and reach their end during the same period; whereas telos is the point of time at the end of that period.
Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Well, when the branch is tender reffers to Israel:
Jer 24:5 Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel; Like these good figs, so will I acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans for their good.
Jer 24:6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
Isa 66:8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.
We saw this natin born in a day in 47 right? How long is a generation then? Isn't it 70 years? But for the elects sake, He will cut the time short, lest no flesh be saved.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
IF we are NOw in the Tribulation...where is the antichrist? You know the one that will rule the WHOLE world?
The Bible teaches that in the end times, right before the return of Jesus, the greatest political leader in the history of Mankind will emerge from Europe. After taking over that area by diplomatic cunning and deceit, he will launch a military campaign that will result in his acquiring "authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation" (Revelation 13:7). His empire will be the most extensive in all of history, encompassing the entire world, and his rule will be the most demonic the world has ever experienced.
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
That we may know Him.
I would add that, imo, Revelation has been unsealed. We are now in the tribulation, the great armies of the earth are mounting their forces in the lands which have reordered themselves to the same configuration of old, The false Jews have encamped their old Babylonian place, and all are amassing into the time of Jacob's trouble. We now see astrological events showing changes so quickly that a single generation can see differences.
Revelation, let's see how the HS uses this word, it's context:
G602
ἀποκάλυψις
apokalupsis
ap-ok-al'-oop-sis
From G601; disclosure: - appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten apokalupsis the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation apokalupsis of the sons of God.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing apokalupsis of Jesus Christ
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation apokalupsis in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints
I am not saying I understand allthings, nor that there are not difficulties with the Book of the Revelator Christ Jesus, but I am saying it is written to make known, but speciically to the Jewss, as it is written to the tribes of Israel, and although we can read their letters, learn from their letters, it is addressed to Israel.
The church of the one body is given to have:
Eph 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ
But when God takes up His might work again with the nation Israel, angels, and wonders, miracles and signs again come back on the scene.
IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by epouraniois:
Truth through Jesus Christ our LORD be unto you.
Caught up into the air:
Here is the point!:
Don't take my word for it, search and see, the word 'air' is not the kind of air in the atmosphere, for the word is tracable back to the original neshamah נשׁמה
of Genesis2. 7, meaning the catching up is in resurrection, ie, the breath of life body, not the corporeal body of flesh. Flesh and blood cannot enter, for this mortality must put on immortality...
The Bible speak is plain and easy, everyone will be changed into their breath of life body in a piece of time so small that it cannot be divided further. The Greek word is 'atome', in the twinkling of an eye, in a moment *atome*, but the dead rise first. Those who are alive and remain can in no way preceed those who are dead. The dead rise first. There are those resurrected unto judgment, and those resurrected unto life.
imo, the problem of listening to man leans heavily on someone else doing the research, but it is written:
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" Prov 25:2
"And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me WITH ALL YOUR HEART"
Jer 29:13
It does not say God reveals to those who listen to what other people have searched. It is an individual and personal relationship which the Lord offers to those who trust in Him more than doctrines of man and of demons. For the Lord to reveal to us His Wisdom, we must search out the word of truth for ourselves. All we can do for one another is to help point to where the verses are.
For this cause I have asked for verses stating what the pre-trib rapturers see. I personally have no way to add man's ideasphere unto the Holy Word of God. If it does not say that the specific hope is to be removed from the earth prior to the great tribulation, then I shant add unto what is written. That is between myself and the Lord from Heaven. For those who take no mind to what is written and espouse to themselfs heaped up words of the Scripture doctors, that is between them and the Lord from Heaven.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
None has He lost. We shall all be changed.
Sorry, I edited out alot of your post and just put in the topic at hand for brevity. Your whole post was great!
Pre-tribbers have tried and offered Bibical evidence here many times for the Pre-trib view.
They themselves are convinced. Perhaps they are convinced because they will die naturally before the Tribulation. Who knows? That way they will be correct.
I believe that the Church body will go through years of tribulation and that actually several of the Seals have been opened already.
I believe the Lord will open our eyes as the time gets closer to see the Truth. Some of the Revelation is still "sealed". As in Daniel near the end of that book of the Bible, the angel tells Daniel to seal up the prophecy until the times of the end.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Unity in the Spirit to you all through the LORD Jesus Christ, and to you BA I ask forgiveness. I seem to have sounded rude in the above post at the start and have re edited it. I assume it was read, and have no reason to be rude, and to this end I can only ask forgiveness of having wrote anything that later I would not is good.
I share with you an expression from the pages of Enoch2, Dr. Richard Laurence, a Hebrew professor at Oxford, produced the first English translation of the work, called SLAVONIC BOOK OF ENOCH, v1:
1 There was a wise man, a great artificer, and the Lord conceived love for him and received him, that he should behold the uppermost dwellings and be an eye-witness of the wise and great and inconceivable and immutable realm of God Almighty, of the very wonderful and glorious and bright and many-eyed station of the Lord's servants, and of the inaccessible throne of the Lord, and of the degrees and manifestations of the incorporeal hosts, and of the ineffable ministration of the multitude of the elements,
and of the various apparition and inexpressible singing of the host of Cherubim, and of the boundless light.
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12: 2
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) 2 Cor 12: 3
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12: 4
Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 2 Cor 12: 5
For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 2 Cor 12: 6
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 2 Cor 12: 7
For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 2 Cor 12: 8
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 2 Cor 12: 9
I too, have been provided "a thorn in the flesh", forgive me.
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
BA,
It is true, your right, I should have referred the verses, but you know how long my posts get, please permit me to...the verses, for I do so love and rejoice in the Word of the Lord. Likewise, when I fall down, please pick me up again as I intend always to those who love the Lord:
Gen 27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou biddest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
Gen 27:11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:
Gen 27:12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.
Gen 27:13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.
Gen 27:14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savory meat, such as his father loved.
Gen 27:15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:
Gen 27:16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:
Gen 27:17 And she gave the savory meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
Gen 27:18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
Gen 27:19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou biddest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
IP: Logged |
|
|
BORN AGAIN
unregistered
|
posted
epouraniois, you have said this before, but it is not true: quote:
Jacob supplanted by deceit Esau's inheritance.
What deceit did Jacob use? Since when is it deceit to "ask Esau for his birthright promises in exchange for something else"?
Esau could have just refused.
And once Esau had profanely sold his birthright promises to Jacob, Jacob could legally say to his father Isaac that "I am Esau" when it came to the birthright promises, especially since Esau had conveniently failed to tell his father Isaac that Esau had sold his birthright promises to Jacob.
As for putting skins on his arms and neck, Jacob obeyed his own mother who told him that he must do it; and it was Esau's fault that Jacob had to go to these extremes to legally acquire the blessings attached to the birthright. All this would have been unnecessary if the former owner Esau had told his father Isaac that Jacob now owned the birthright and its accompanying blessings.
See my extended Topic on this CBBS, "I have loved Jacob" for further details.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
Truth through Jesus Christ our LORD be unto you.
God speaks plainly in the language of the day. The day to the people to which did write. In John, we read
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
This tells us that it is by the power of the HS, and not by the human frailty of memory, subject to loss and distortion, by which the writings of the Holy Word of God came to them at the later time of writing.
For example, John tells us that He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. This makes it clear, that John's Gospel was written AFTER Acts28. 28, when 'The Salvation of God of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear (Him). *says 'it' in the AV, but is an ellipsis supplied, ie, not in the original Greek, we are free to, so I do, supply Him, we shall hear Him, not it*.
The next thing we learn of when John's Gospel was written, is that the pools were still standing. This means that Jerusalem still stood, that Nero had not burned it down. This means John's gospel was written between AD64-70.
It matters little that the 'experts' so called place the time of the writing at a much later date. What is important is that God has not lied, and has given us plain statements of fact. Facts of His interpretation mean more than gold and rubies:
Woe to you experts (doctors) in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." Luke 11:52
Caught up into the air:
Here is the point!:
Don't take my word for it, search and see, the word 'air' is not the kind of air in the atmosphere, for the word is tracable back to the original neshamah נשׁמה
of Genesis2. 7, meaning the catching up is in resurrection, ie, the breath of life body, not the corporeal body of flesh. Flesh and blood cannot enter, for this mortality must put on immortality...
The Bible speak is plain and easy, everyone will be changed into their breath of life body in a piece of time so small that it cannot be divided further. The Greek word is 'atome', in the twinkling of an eye, in a moment *atome*, but the dead rise first. Those who are alive and remain can in no way preceed those who are dead. The dead rise first. There are those resurrected unto judgment, and those resurrected unto life.
imo, the problem of listening to man leans heavily on someone else doing the research, but it is written:
"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter" Prov 25:2
"And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me WITH ALL YOUR HEART"
Jer 29:13
It does not say God reveals to those who listen to what other people have searched. It is an individual and personal relationship which the Lord offers to those who trust in Him more than doctrines of man and of demons. For the Lord to reveal to us His Wisdom, we must search out the word of truth for ourselves. All we can do for one another is to help point to where the verses are.
For this cause I have asked for verses stating what the pre-trib rapturers see. I personally have no way to add man's ideasphere unto the Holy Word of God. If it does not say that the specific hope is to be removed from the earth prior to the great tribulation, then I shant add unto what is written. That is between myself and the Lord from Heaven. For those who take no mind to what is written and espouse to themselfs heaped up words of the Scripture doctors, that is between them and the Lord from Heaven.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
Little children, love one another.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Jud 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Pro 17:3 The refining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Think about it, use your minds, God hated Essau but loved Jacob. Jacob supplanted by deciet Essau's inheritance, but God loved Jacob.
Why?
I will tell you, it is because God is the heart-knower, and judgeth the secret things of the heart, and God knew Jacob wanted the best that God had to offer, and would continue unto the end *word is PERFECT*, and God loves that.
The works that are burned up, are the works of the heart, but the individual self shall be saved, as by fire!!!
The overcomers shall not be HURT of the second death. The second death is where Death *Satan*, and Hell *the grave* is destroyed.
When God destroys things He makes all things new.
When God makes all things new, the former things are past away.
God does not contradict Himself. It is impossible for Him to lie.
None has He lost. We shall all be changed.
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The word 'slieght' in v. 13 is significant, as it is the word 'kubeia', with the idea of playing dice with the word of God.
G2940
κυβεία
kubeia
koo-bi'-ah
From κύβος kubos (a “cube”, that is, die for playing); gambling, that is, (figuratively) artifice or fraud: - sleight.
God's words are pure words, words of earth, as tried in the fire as silver is tried, 7 times pure; Psa 12:6.
God does not need our opinions, nor our interpretations. God has given us His. If we will hear it.
2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB,
I’m sure that this will be an idea that we can both agree on-
Why don’t we leave this thread? We are both bringing it down.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
Vulgarity will get you no where.
AMH
Ok~ Stand Fast
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB,
Vulgarity will get you no where.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
So when the reapers gather in the harvest to our Lord’s barn, they first gather up the tares and place them in the fire.
AMH
What I think that there will be a lot of dead flesh left.
Great stench..
Those that eat death will be there.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB and TexasGrandma,
And this is the reason why there is animosity. We suffer from irreconcilable differences.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB,
So when the reapers gather in the harvest to our Lord’s barn, they first gather up the tares and place them in the fire.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
You do not have to look it up. I already know.
And the parables are just as reliable as any other portion of scripture. And when the Lord talks about the resurrection through parables it is still truth. And we can obtain doctrine from them. And the rest of scripture must keep in line with them.
AMH
ok~still watchen~ok
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB,
You do not have to look it up. I already know.
And the parables are just as reliable as any other portion of scripture. And when the Lord talks about the resurrection through parables it is still truth. And we can obtain doctrine from them. And the rest of scripture must keep in line with them.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
WildB,
No, I was not saying anything like that. Your scripture is high in quality.
My question is of a general nature.
Since we are talking about the return of Jesus and that He is the resurrection, in a court of law probably He would be considered an expert on the subject. And anything that He says would have to rate.
So generally speaking-
Where do the parables rate?
AMH
parables of my Christ is truth and a good path to follow.
The other cross your path to redirrect.
I forget the term, but it means to lay a dirrection different.
If you need me to look it up I will.
Im done , you do it.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB,
No, I was not saying anything like that. Your scripture is high in quality.
My question is of a general nature.
Since we are talking about the return of Jesus and that He is the resurrection, in a court of law probably He would be considered an expert on the subject. And anything that He says would have to rate.
So generally speaking-
Where do the parables rate?
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
How much weight do the parables of Jesus carry in this discussion?
If I have missdirrected my Christ tell me?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
How much weight do the parables of Jesus carry in this discussion?
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
I believe there will be a "catching away" of the Saints as Paul writes in Thess. about meeting the Lord in the air. I do not know if that means our physcial bodies. It may just mean our spirits/souls. Scripture is not clear here, it does teach we will have an incorrutible body or Resurrected Body.
The Bible is very clear.
Matt.16
1. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
1Cor.15
1. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
Bible, King James Version
2 matches.
Matt.24
1. [28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Luke.17
1. [37] And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WhiteEagle
Advanced Member
Member # 3728
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adv.Christian:
Good morning my brothers and sisters. I wanted to ask everybody a favor. Allow me to start by giving you readers digest version of what I believe the Word of God to say concerning Rapture, 2nd Resurrection and the state of man after death. 1st- I can not find any consistent teaching of post, pre or mid tribulation Rapture of the Church, in fact, I find the Word of God to seemingly teach the opposite to that unless the use of insinuation and assumption is involved. 2nd- Concerning the 2nd resurrection; it seems to me that it is in simplicity the return of Jesus Christ at which time all mankind will be raised either to salvation or unto damnation. 3rd- And lastly the state of man after death is that of sleep until the return of Christ on the final day at which time either you have salvation or you are destroyed eternally. The fate of those which are unsaved is eternal destruction (the 2nd death) and not that of being placed in an eternal fire and torment.
Now that being said please allow me to ask my favor of everybody. While I stress that above is a limited over view of what I find; I wrote this only to give everbody a back ground of where I am currently and what I currently believe. What I would like to ask of everybody is for your assistance in helping me with my understanding of the doctrine of the rapture of the church by using scripture to help me to follow the teaching and belief in it. Please understand I admire and respect the knowledge and opinions of all members of this forum; but I would like to ask that any answers and opinions you decide to reply with you also include the scriptures on which the replies are based.
I am not attempting to start an argument over this topic, in fact quite the opposite. My prayer and desire is that you all can assist me in my growth and understanding of God’s Word. I desire to understand the views of rapture and exactly how this belief is derived in order to know if my understanding is in fact incorrect or flawed. Please understand I do not wish to attempt to delve into what or why I hold the beliefs I hold I do not desire to debate the issue I only hope to come to a clearer understanding of this subject and with with everybody’s assistance and God's guidence with this I am confident I will. I thank you in advance for your help and as always my love to all and May God bless. ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Born Again please note the use of a capital G indicating the reference to the God of Israel. ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
Dear Advanced Christian;
I believe there will be a "catching away" of the Saints as Paul writes in Thess. about meeting the Lord in the air. I do not know if that means our physcial bodies. It may just mean our spirits/souls. Scripture is not clear here, it does teach we will have an incorrutible body or Resurrected Body.
As to the timeline of when...I don't know from scripture, except as another poster here wrote; from Thess and Matthew 24 there will be a sound of the Trumpet, or the Last Trumpet will sound.
I've heard many teachings about this trumpet.
1. In Jewish religous tradition, there was a trumpet call to worship. There is a Jewish Feast called the Feast of the Trumpets. It occurs to prepare for the Day of Atonement.
There is a timeline teaching that associates world events with the Jewish Feasts. We are currently in the Feast of Pentecost. Since Acts recorded the coming of the Holy Spirit. The
Feast of Trumpets in next on the calendar.
2.Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven saying; "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and His Christ; and he will reign for ever and ever."
If Revelation 11:15 is the same "last Trump" that Paul is talking about, it looks to me like Christians WILL be going through the Last Days including seeing the antichrist and enduring tribulation.
All of these events are still prior to God's wrath starting on earth.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
Adv. Christian,
Yes that is the trick.
Read closely Watchers response-
That being with God was never promised to them, (Old Testament Saints).
But that promise is the only thing worth having and Watcher wants to take it away.
(Only the Old Testament Saints can tell us of “their vision”.)
By the way, GrandmaTexas starts out saying that I am looking to cause trouble, (a trouble maker). Then her backup threatens me with physical violence. All of this because I disagree with their basic premise. I was not even addressing them to begin with. I addressed you and indirectly Watcher. They have no right to treat anyone like that.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Adv.Christian
Advanced Member
Member # 3453
|
posted
AMH I agree that a disagreeing view is not taboo however to me it certainly should not become an argumentative disagreement. In simplicity my view, your view anybody’s view is just that their view on a given subject be it biblical, scientific or any other theory based understanding. The catch to this is both parties to the conversation must approach with an open mind to the possibility that there is some truth in the views of the other side in order for true learning and growth to occur.
The fact of the matter is I firmly believe no interpretation of God’s Word is totally correct. All doctrines I have studied to this point have flaws, for there is verses which taken in context disagrees with the belief. What I now believe is what I have found most closely correlates with what God’s Word says; but there are still areas where there is no doubt that it is not complete due to the reason, as mentioned above, verses which when used in context do not agree. I do not care if you can show 500 verses in the scriptures taken in context that coincide with a belief, if there is but one verse, again taken in context, which disagrees with that belief then the belief is either wrong or not complete at the present stage. Our growth is dependent on God’s Word and our studying and development in our understanding of it. One of the many tools God has provided us is our brothers and sisters and their understanding of His Word. There should be a common goal that of reaching the true meaning of God’s Word and not what due to our own arrogance we think it should mean. Any scholar can take words and turn them to mean what they want them to look at how the constitution has been turned. As America should do with the constitution we as Christians should strive to come to as close of understanding of God’s Word as He intended it mean and keep our desires and earthly understanding from standing in the way of that. I pray God grants me the ability to never be so arrogant as to believe I could be the only person that understands God’s Word and that if everybody dose not agree with me they are condemned, for I am but His servant and what He gives I humbly take with thanks.
I hope this made since I just sort of wrote the words as they came to mind, as always my love to all and May God Bless.
--------------------
A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
Yes they are dwelling with God now ... but that was never "promised to them" ... either as a covenant or otherwise. Their vision of the afterlife seems to have been an "Abrahams Bossom" existance until a "resurection of the dead".
Now we know that is true, but what was not detailed in Scripture was that the Messiah would come as a Suffering Servant, die a cruel death, go to the depths of the earth and free those Old Testament Saints who were trapped in death and take them to heaven with Him. We don't find that out until revealed to us in the Scripture we call the New Testament.
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
|
posted
Watcher, where would you say the OT saints are living now?
Hebrews 11:9-
By FAITH he (Abraham) dwelt in the land of promise (physical) promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; for he waited for the city(heavenly) which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
verse 13-
These all died in FAITH, not having recieved the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were STRANGERS and PILGRIMS on the EARTH.
For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.
And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have an opportunity to return.
But now they desire a better, that is, a HEAVENLY country. Therefore, God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city For THEM.
And all these, having obtained a good testimony through FAITH, did not recieve the promise(they all died before His coming)
God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect APART from us(The BODY of Christ will be COMPLETE with saints from both Old and New Testaments.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
WildB,
You have no trouble communicating your faith.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by AMH:
You need to prove two things granny-
1 That I am the trouble maker
2 That Old Testament Saints are not part of Christ
Can you do that with Scripture?
AMH
If any one ever called my Nana "granny" in ear shot of me or mine they would walk away with race tracks arround thier eyes. Thats of coarse after they came to and got up off the ground and looked in the mirror. Hehe.
Have a little class my friend.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
Adv. Christian,
I took it that you were serious about your guest posters using scripture to back up every claim, (an imposed structure) which I highly agree with. The problem as you say now is a lack of communication, (understanding). When scripture is given there is a habit of making it conform to us. We must conform to Him. That must include His Word.
I know that there is animosity here at this site. But it does not have to be that way. You are most gracious as is our main host David. That someone disagrees with intelligence should not be taboo.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Adv.Christian
Advanced Member
Member # 3453
|
posted
AMH forgive my ignorance, but I fail to be able to follow your 1st post. You stated quote:
Honesty behooves us to declare your imposed structure unacceptable in this forum.
Why do you choose to call it an “imposed structure”? I have at no time intended or attempted to use a forced composition on my part or anybody else’s. I also fail to understand how a request for assistance in this subject where it concerns understanding either, that of the doctrine, or of how other believers interpret this, would be “unacceptable in this forum” As I say I apologize for my ignorance and if I have offended anybody I am sorry and ask your forgiveness. As always my love to all and May God Bless.
--------------------
A person talking can not be listening; A person not listening can not be learning.
Posts: 299 | From: Raleigh/North Carolina | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
Watcher,
Wait just one moment.
The earth is lower than heaven. For a time, we are made lower than the angels. If the Old Testament Saints are doomed to spending eternity on earth, even a new earth, then they are for ever inferior to the New Testament Saints.
What is the problem with your understanding?
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
Please let me add:
When "salvation" is mentioned in the Old Testament you should note that it is in a fleshy tense as in saved from an enemy ... The Old Testament Saints held onto no promise of joining God in His Heaven, but rather the Messiah coming to Reign over Israel on earth.
Thank you! ![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
Okay...good day to you.
Israel occupies nearly four-fifths of the text of the Bible. As to primary application, the Church occupies slightly more than one-fifth of the Word.
The Divine Purpose
Every covenant, promise, and provision for Israel is earthly, and they continue as a nation on the earth when it is created anew.
Every covenant or promise for the Church is for a heavenly reality, and she continues in heavenly citizenship when the heavens are recreated.
Birth
Israelites become what they are by physical birth. Each one is begotten of human parents and their inheritance is transmitted by human generation.
Christians become what they are by spiritual birth. They are begotten directly by God and are therefore His legitimate offspring. Their inheritance is immediate in that each is a child of God.
Nationality
Israel belongs to the earth and to the world system. Though above all nations in Jehovah's reckoning, they are still in the world as one of its nations.
The Church is composed of all nations, including Israelites, and sustains no citizenship here, but instead the believers are strangers and pilgrims.
Ministry
Israel was appointed to exercise an influence over the nations of the earth, and this she will do perfectly in the coming Kingdom age. Previously she undertook no missionary work, and proclaimed no gospel. She maintained her self-centered worship-she faced inward toward the tabernacle or temple, and all her benevolence was consumed on her own worship.
Immediately upon her formation, the Church is constituted a foreign missionary society. It is her obligation to face outward, and to those of her company is given the task of evangelizing the people of the world in each generation.
The Death Of Christ
That nation which demanded the death of Christ and which said by their officials, "His Blood be on us, and on our children," is guilty of that death; yet they will be saved as a nation on the ground of that Sacrifice.
A present and perfect salvation to the praise of God is the portion of the Church through the offering of the Lamb of God.
The Father
To Israel God is known by His primary titles, but not as Father of the individual Israelite.
The Christian is actually begotten of God and has every right to address Him as Father.
Christ
To Israel, Christ is Messiah, Immanuel, and King.
To the Church, Christ is Saviour, Lord, Bridegroom, Head, and Life.
The Holy Spirit
Only in exceptional instances and for unusual service did the Holy Spirit come upon an Israelite, and He withdrew as freely as He came, when the purpose was accomplished.
The Christian is permanently indwelt by the Spirit; and actually, he is not saved apart from this relationship to the Spirit ( Rom. 8:9 ).
Governing Principle
For fifteen centuries the Law of Moses was Israel's rule of daily life ( Ps. 103:17 , 18 ).
Believers , members of the Body of Christ, being wholly perfected in Him, are under the beseechings and directions which grace provides.
Divine Enablement
The Law system provided no enabling power for its achievement. There was constant failure because of the weakness of "the flesh" to which it was addressed ( Rom. 8:3 ).
To the Church is provided, by the indwelling Spirit, enablement for every requirement. Paul could say, "Sin shall not have dominion over you"; the reasoning being, "Ye are not under law, but under grace" ( Rom. 6:14 ).
Christ's Return
He returns as King to gather Israel into the land ( Deut. 30:1-8 ; Jer. 23:7 , 8 ; Matt. 24:31 ).
The Lord Jesus returns for His Bride and takes her with Him into heavenly glory ( John 14:1-3 ).
Position
Though individuals in Israel attained to great usefulness, as did the prophets, priests, and kings; yet they never reached a higher distinction than that they were the servants of Jehovah.
Christians compose the Church, forever in Christ, members of the Body of Christ.
Christ's Earthly Reign
Israelites are appointed to be subjects of the King in His earthly kingdom.
Members of the Body of Christ are to reign with the King as His consort in that Kingdom.
Priesthood
Israel has a priesthood.
The Church is a priesthood
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
Adv. Christian,
I sympathize with you on the scripture requirements. My point was that people decide what they want to believe then go about making the Bible agree with them.
Instead, we should accept the Bible for what it says, agree with it and let the rest go.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
Watcher,
More sophistry?
Dispensationalism is more about salvation then anything else including the Second Coming.
If the Old Testament Saints are not in Christ then they have no place in heaven. That works out good for your philosophy. You need someone to occupy your fantasy land.
I was taught always to be polite. Give your scripture proving the inferiority of the Old Testament Saints-
Then I will give mine.
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
I have an idea You AMH need to prove two things...
1.That you are not the trouble maker.
2 That Old Testament Saints are not part of Christ
Can you do that with Scripture AMH ?
I don't believe you can. ![[BooHoo]](graemlins/boohoo.gif)
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
You need to prove two things granny-
1 That I am the trouble maker
2 That Old Testament Saints are not part of Christ
Can you do that with Scripture?
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Old Testament Saints are not the Church. Watcher is indeed correct. AMH, don't seek to start trouble.
betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
AMH
Advanced Member
Member # 4895
|
posted
Adv. Christian,
Honesty behooves us to declare your imposed structure unacceptable in this forum.
I will give only one example-
David Reagan’s piece presented by Watcher states that the Old Testament saints are not in Christ.
What could be more dishonest?
AMH
Posts: 350 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
The risen Christ could have told of unknown glory, mysteries beyond the age times, but what did He do? He opened their eyes to the Scriptures, He opened the Book. It is written.
Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
1. verses please.
2. verses please. We are looking to teach me that there is a church which is pre trib raptured, remember?
3. You are saying it is the very elect of God who have the curses? What curses? Verses please.
4. Not what Christ said, Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
verses please. I am looking to receive God's understanding, His words. How can I make it more clear?
5. not in the end times? Better actually read it:
Eph 6:11,13
Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil...that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day
6. the Living Word, the Catholic Bible, just shop till you get one that says what you want, or that doesn't say what you don't wish to receive, is that instruction given in the Word of God, or church policy?
Did God...to heaven. Yes, Ecc12. 7, the spirit returns to God who gave it - None in heaven where Christ is Hid in God, for He is far above all - Have you read the verses stating that no man has entered heaven, but there are 3 that bear witness?
7. Being that new age satanic religeon is teaching it, doesn't that set off red flags? Verses please.
8. verses please.
9. I never said Israel’s hope and the Church is the same, in fact, if you bothered to read most anything I have posted, you would know that this is a false insinuation, but what about the actual question? verses please.
10. 2Co 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
2Co 6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Co 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
What does this have to do with leaving the planet while the elect stay and do the work of God? Are you aware that all this is OT quotes, speaking to what Israel had known and been trained for for centuries? If this is about a pre trib rapture, then please show the OT verses supporting it.
11. 1Th 4:15
If my eyes are not deceiving me, doesn't Paul say they would be caught up at the COMING of the Lord ?? And doesn't he mention his coming 10 times in his Acts epistles ?? And if Christ has already come one time, wouldn't this be his second coming ??
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES , HE COMES IN THE CLOUDS
Verse 30 says,
" They shall see the Son of man coming in the CLOUDS OF HEAVEN "
IN 1 THESS. AND I COR. 15 WHEN JESUS COMES HE COMES IN CLOUDS.
Verse 17 says,
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS , to meet the Lord in the air".
IN MATT. 24 WHEN JESUS COMES IN THE CLOUDS HE WILL. COME WITH ANGELS
Verse 31,
"And He shall send forth his ANGELS "
In 1 Thess. 4:16 it says,
" HE will descend from heaven with... the voice of the ARCHANGEL.
Michael is the archangel and the prince of Israel (DAN 12:1-2) and were Michael goes so does HIS ANGELS , read Rev. 12:7.
So you are using Israel's kingdom hope for the church when it suit you, as well as say these are different, even though they are really exactly the same, is that how we study the Bible?
12. so you are saying the very elect have to remain because they are not washing in the blood of Christ Jesus the Lord from heaven? That makes no since. God always makes since. verses please.
13. Verses please.
How am I to learn what the word of God says if you refuse to provide it? I think it is very harsh to dismiss and exchange the straightforward and clear verses which all depict the exact same event, the 2nd advent of the Lord Christ Jesus, to exchange what is clear and concise for what is not written save for in the 4th century where the RCC put the word rape in their Bible. But they pray to statues and dead people too, so it's not really much of a suprise is it?
Psa 12:6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Psa 12:7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation forever.
Psa 12:8 The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
If it isn't written, then it isn't written.
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Perhaps my questions are too hard. Let me see if I can get you to answer another way:
(perhaps you are making fun of me. It doesn't matter. when the rapture happens you can apologize to me then.
1. Please show who the Lord comes for during the pre trib.
The Church, the bride of Christ.
2. Are they resurrected before the dead, the dead who shall rise first?
The dead in Christ will rise first followed by those alive who will be changed from a corruptible body in to a glorified body.
3. Why are the elect of God having to remain?
The Jews who have not accepted Jesus as Savior will go through the tribulation.
This is a part of the curse they put on themselves when they said let Jesus’ blood be on our children
4. Why did Christ pray that none be taken out of the world, rather that they are protected from the evil day?
Because when the Jews do accept Jesus, they will be going through the tribulation, the evil day.
5. Why are we to put on the whole armor of God to stand in that evil day if we aren't going to be here?
We put on the whole armor of God because we face tribulation today but not The tribulation of the end time.
6. When we read that God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls in Ez13, how does the rapture believers avoid God being against that?
The verse:
20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
Here it is in the Living Word:
20 "And so the Sovereign Lord says: I am against all your magic charms, which you use to ensnare my people like birds. I will tear them from your arms, setting my people free like birds set free from a cage.
We do not hunt people down and make them fly in the rapture. The rapture will not be done by magic but my a miracle of God. Did God not take Elijah up to Heaven?
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
7. Are all of you going to disappear, the Lord taking you bodily? or kill the body first?
We will disappear. Even the New Age Religion is teaching of a time people will disappear from earth. They are just teaching that aliens will take us, when the Bible says Jesus will come for us.
8. Please share the verses that declare Christ coming multiple more times, specifically before He manifest at the last trump.
In previous post I showed that the rapture and second coming is different. In the rapture we meet Jesus in the air. In the Second Coming, we will be behind Jesus on white horses. In the rapture Jesus comes as a deliverer but in the Second Coming , He will return as a conqueror.
9. Please explain why you use Israel's hope and the words to Israel as a rapture for the church you belong to, but ignore ALL verses that plainly teach contrarwise to the rapture.
I know of no verses that say that Israel’s hope and the Church is the same.
10. Please do share the verses stating the exaclty when the rapture occurs. I have trouble understanding when people just make up words and pretend they are in the Bible, I rather need God's word please.
A form of the word rapture appears in the Vulgate Bible
J. Dwight Pentcost sums up the mystery like this: "The Church and Israel are two distinct groups with whom God has a divine plan. The Church is a mystery unrevealed in the Old Testament. This present mystery age intervenes within the program of God for Israel because of Israel's rejection of the Messiah at His first advent. This mystery program must be completed before God can resume His program with Israel and bring it to completion..."
"...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord..." Here we have another condition given to those who are alive at the time of the Rapture. Those who remain are those who are still remaining in Christ and have kept their faith. These will be caught up to meet Jesus. Our Lord is coming back for a prepared people; that is, only for those who are ready. Those who have back-slid will not be raptured. Those who are separated from sin will be raptured. Paul gave the warning in his letter to the Corinthians. (IICorinthians 6:14-18.)
11. Do you have those verses stating your quotes of your 'blessed hope' being the 'pre-trib rapture'? I would really like to study those verses please.
1Th 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
12. Which church gets raptured? Where are the verses detailing these things?
Anyone who is washed in the blood of Jesus and looking for His return will go up
13. In 2 Thes 2, where it says that day shall not come till there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, how is it that Christ isn't going to come until after He comes? Is our God doubleminded, I don't think so!
There is a verse that says that the man of sin cannot be revealed until the restrainer is removed, which will happen when the Church is raptured.
Betty
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
And peace be unto you IN Christ as well.
quote:
If I had come to the conclusion on my own, I would think twice about it.
Perhaps my questions are too hard. Let me see if I can get you to answer another way:
1. Please show who the Lord comes for during the pre trib.
2. Are they resurrected before the dead, the dead who shall rise first?
3. Why are the elect of God having to remain?
4. Why did Christ pray that none be taken out of the world, rather that they are protected from the evil day?
5. Why are we to put on the whole armor of God to stand in that evil day if we aren't going to be here?
6. When we read that God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls in Ez13, how does the rapture believers avoid God being against that?
7. Are all of you going to disappear, the Lord taking you bodily? or kill the body first?
8. Please share the verses that declare Christ coming multiple more times, specifically before He manifest at the last trump.
9. Please explain why you use Israel's hope and the words to Israel as a rapture for the church you belong to, but ignore ALL verses that plainly teach contrarwise to the rapture.
10. Please do share the verses stating the exaclty when the rapture occurs. I have trouble understanding when people just make up words and pretend they are in the Bible, I rather need God's word please.
11. Do you have those verses stating your quotes of your 'blessed hope' being the 'pre-trib rapture'? I would really like to study those verses please.
12. Which church gets raptured? Where are the verses detailing these things?
13. In 2 Thes 2, where it says that day shall not come till there be a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, how is it that Christ isn't going to come until after He comes? Is our God doubleminded, I don't think so!
Here are some different churches, BIBLICALLY, Appendix 186 From The Companion Bible.:
1. The Greek word ekklesia means assembly, or a gathering of called-out ones. It is used seventy times in the Septuagint for the Hebrew kahal (from which latter we have our word call), rendered in Septuagint by sunagoge and ekklesia.1 This latter word occ. in New Testament 115 times (36 in plural), and is always translated "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41 (assembly).
2. kahal is used
(1) of Israel as a People called out from the rest of the nations (Genesis 28:3);
(2) of the tribal council of Simeon and Levi, those called out from each tribe (Genesis 49:6); (3) of an assembly of Israelites called out for worship or any other purpose (Deuteronomy 18:16; 31:30. Joshua 8:35. Judges 21:8);
(4) any assembly of worshippers as a congregation (Psalm 22:22, 25. Ekklesia in Matthew 16:18; (18:17. 1Corinthians 14:19, 35, etc.);
(5) the equivalent ekklesia of separate assemblies in different localities (Acts 5:11; 8:3. 1 Corinthians 4:17, etc.);
(6) of the guild or "union" of Ephesian craftsmen (Acts 19:32, 41), and verse 39 (the lawful assembly). Finally, the special Pauline usage of ekklesia differs from all these. Other assemblies consisted of called-out ones from Jews, or from Gentiles (Acts 18:22), but this new body is of called-out ones from both.
3. Our word "church" 2 has an equally varied usage. It is used
(1) of any congregation;
(2) of a particular church (England, or Rome, etc);
(3) of the ministry of a church;
(4) of the building in which the congregation assembles;
(5) of Church as distinct from Chapel;
(6) of the church as distinct from the world, and lastly, it is used in the Pauline sense, of THE BODY OF CHRIST.
4. It is of profound importance to distinguish the usage of the word in each case, else we may be reading "the church which was in the wilderness" into the Prison Epistles, although we are expressly told that there is neither Jew nor Gentile in the "church which is His body". And when our Lord said "On this rock I will build my church" (Matthew 16:18), those who heard His words could not connect them with the "mystery" which was "hid in God" and had not then been made known to the sons of men. Confusion follows our reading what refers to Israel in the past or the future into the present dispensation. Readers are referred to the various notes in the connexions.
5. The word where qualified by other terms occurs thus: -
Church of God;
Acts 20:28. 1 Corinthians 1:2; 10:32; 11:16 (plural), 22; 15:9. 2 Corinthians 1:1. Galatians 1:13. 1 Thessalonians 2:14 (plural).
2 Thessalonians 1:4 (plural). 1 Timothy 3:5, 15 (c. of the living God).
Churches of Christ; Romans 16:16.
Church in .. house; Romans 16:5. 1 Corinthians 16:19. Colossians 4:15. Philemon 2.
The Church of the One Body, the calling that goes back before the foundation of the world, and ascends to the position ‘far above all’ where Christ sits. This church is entirely disassociated from all previous companies, having no relation with Israel, Abraham or New Covenant, but filling the great dispensational parenthesis of Israel’s blindness, which fell on that nation in Acts 28. The status, calling and constitution of this Church can be gathered by reading Ephesians and Colossians, remembering as the reading progresses, ever to ‘try the things that differ’.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away
Im my Bible, it is the many who will be deceived, I take it yours is different?
IP: Logged |
|
|
TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
|
posted
Like I said, my hope is in the pre-trib rapture. You believe what makes you comfortable. If I had come to the conclusion on my own, I would think twice about it. But I have done 4 studies at 2 different denomantion. I do not believe that Southern Baptist and Assembly of God have both got it wrong. I am at peace with my belief. May you at peace with your own belif.
God bless you,
betty
The rapture is mention in the Vulagte Bible.
--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
|
|
epouraniois
unregistered
|
posted
let me say this first, I have asked several questions and you are shrugging them off as if those Scriptures do not exist. There is not one place where any rapture is spoken of period. It is a manmade theme based upon words which God has not used. Is that anyway seek the Lord? Just make stuff up that is not written?
Additionally, there is not one place where it is spoken of as the believers hope. How could it, it isn't Scriptural save for the fact that God is against those who teach His children to fly to save their souls?
quote:
this is speaking of the Jews. When they see
One of the many inconsistancies of the rapture proposal, is that your defense is no, that is written for the Jews. Well, so was all the epistles written during the Acts, the very ones you claim speaks of a pre trib rapture, as each letter during Acts being written always to the Jew first. Those gentile believers partook of Israel's spiritual things. The kingdom hope, and His coming as He so left wass the hope of Israel.
To use the double standard, to accept one thing to the Jews when it suits a preintended purpose is no way to steward the Holy Word of God, for in so doing the word of truth becomes just an amalgamation by imagination,an utter disregard to the clear and plain language set forth throughout Scripture.
It is not my intention to be overly rudy at all, only to state things in a clear and discernable manner. If we desire to rightly divide the word of truth, then we ought not pull out single verses when we need them for our own understanding. Rather, the simplicity which is in Christ Jesus dictates that the precepts be kept together at all times. Any of us can take one verse here and there and build any doctrine we like. Is it not best to acknowledge where God divides? Let us not bring together that which the Lord has made seperate. Let us pray that we receive the Lord's understanding, for that is why it is written.
Perhaps this Berian study will help, as it is simple, not bringing the Greek grammar to bear upon those who are without it:
Some see the fact that He will come to the Mount of Olives. Others see an added facet of His coming, that is His coming in the air where some saints will be "caught up...to meet the Lord in the air." Certain orthodoxy only sees the former; the more fundamental sees both the former and the latter. The latter referred to as the "rapture", which incidentally is not a Scriptural wordand cannot find its place in the words "that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep". NO, those who are alive when Christ returns to the earth can in no way prevent those who are dead rising first. The dead shall rise first.
Nevertheless, there are two phases or aspects of the second coming of the Lord.
Both phases are related to the "coming of the Lord." It is the "coming" of the Lord that both aspects will be completed. When the Lord Jesus Christ was received up into heaven two angels stood by the disciples and said,
"...Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."
This definite statement links the prophecy of Zechariah 14:4 and the second "coming" of the Lord we read in Zechariah,
"And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
The Lord Jesus Christ will return again to this earth from the point that He left, the Mount of Olives (see Acts 1:12). It should be noted that throughout the Pentecostal dispensation this was in view. In the third chapter of Acts, Peter tells the men of Israel that if they would change their attitude concerning Jesus Christ of Nazareth God would send Him back from heaven and the long awaited Kingdom would be restored to Israel (see Acts 3:19-26).
For this Kingdom to be instituted Jesus Christ must of necessity return to this earth. So with the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles it is seen that the burden is the return of the Lord from heaven to earth. This is referred to as His "coming". That is, He leaves heaven and comes to earth. This is what the saints looked for during the Acts period.
It must be stated that the "coming" is intimately related to the Kingdom. This fact was in view all through the Acts. The Kingdom hope penetrated from Acts 2 clear through Acts 28. Along with the Kingdom hope goes the return of the Lord, which is His second "coming". All of the epistles written during the Acts period relate to His "coming".
However, after Acts 28:28, we find that the Apostle writes seven other epistles and there is a very obvious omission of the reference to the "coming of the Lord". This study purposes to show that if words have any meaning and are to be studied for the purpose of God making known to us His truth then we must recognize that in Paul's latter epistles he makes no reference to the "coming of the Lord". There seems to be an obvious omission of the words "come" and "coming" in the last seven letters written by Paul.
The last seven epistles make known present truth. They are Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, 1Timothy, Titus, and 2 Timothy. In these letters the Apostle makes known the present calling of the Church of the One Body. It is here also we learn what is the One Hope (Eph.4:4) of our calling. It is not mentioned as being connected with any movement on the part of the Lord at all. But rather it is connected with His manifestation in Glory. The Scripture speaks of it as His "appearing".
Before Acts 28:28 the hope anticipated by believers was that of the "coming (i.e. back to earth) of the Lord." After Acts 28:28 the hope that the believers should anticipate is that of the Lord's "appearing" in the Glory "far above all heavens" (Eph. 4:10). However, failure of Christians to rightly divide the Word of Truth has resulted in confusion as to what the real hope of the believer is in this dispensation of the grace of God. They seem to cling to the hope that was set aside that is not even available today. The Pentecostal believers were to look for the coming of the Lord. But when the dispensational crisis occurred and Israel became "Lo-ammi" (Hos.1:9 i.e.not God's people) at Acts 28:28, the return of the Lord became impossible. He is no longer waiting Israel's repentance, but now, after Acts 28:28, He is enthroned as the Highly Exalted One, who is Head over all things to the Church which is His Body, the fullness of Him Who filleth all in all (Eph.1:22-23). In the capacity as the Head of the Church which is His body, He remains as such until such time as the Church is received up into glory and there manifested with Him in the heavenly places.
The Lord Jesus Christ will pick up His dealings with Israel again. At that time His return to earth will be the hope of the awaiting Israel as well as those believing Gentiles who will be counted as the seed of Abraham and heirs according to the promise (Gal. 3:29)
Many Christians who ignore the dispensational dividing line of Acts 28:28 confuse the two hopes and make them one. We are clearly told that in this dispensation there is but ONE HOPE (Eph.4:4). Those who rightly divide the Word of Truth recognize the difference between the "appearing" of the Lord in Glory and the "coming" of the Lord.
The New Testament books written during the Acts of the Apostles all speak of the return of the Lord. The Lord descending from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel and the trump of God (1 Thess. 4:14-17) all speak about the Lord "coming". For Him to "descend from heaven" he must leave heaven and "come". That was the hope of the believers during the period of time covered by the Book of Acts. Notice the references set forth in the books written during that period. You will note the references to "come" and "coming".
REFERENCES TO HIS 2ND COMING IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - "COME" and "COMING"
1 Cor 1:7 - "So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Cor 4:5 - "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come,..."
1 Cor 11:26 - For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.
1 Cor 15:23 - "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming".
2 Thess. 1:10 - When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe..."
1 Thess. 2:19 - "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?"
1 Thess. 3:13 - "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."
1 Thess. 4:15 - "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep."
1 Thess. 5:23 - "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thess. 2:1 - "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him..."
2 Thess. 2:8 - " And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:"
James 5:7 - "Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord..."
James 5:8 - "Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh."
2 Pet 1:16 - "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ..."
2 Pet 3:4 - "And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."
REFERENCES TO HIS 2ND COMING IN THE GOSPELS - "COME AND "COMING"
Mat 16:27 - "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
Mat 16:28 - "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mat 24:3 - "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Mat 24:30 - "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Mat 25:31 - "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"
Mark 13:26 - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory."
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
John 14:3 - "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
John 14:28 - "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."
Luke 19:13 - "And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come."
Luke 21:27 - "And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory."
Throughout the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles believers anticipated the return of the Lord Jesus Christ from heaven. Some would be changed, "put on immortality", and be "caught up" to meet the returning Lord in the air. They would accompany Him back to the Mount of Olives. Paul entertained his hope during the Acts period (see 1 Thess. 4:4-17 and 1Cor. 15:51-55).
The Lord also promised the Twelve that they would to sit upon 12 thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel when He comes from heaven to the earth to set up His Kingdom (Mat 19:28).
However, when Israel was set aside God ushered in a new dispensation (Acts 28:28) and with it the Apostle Paul learned that the new out-calling's destiny was that of being received up into Glory in the very heaven of heavens far above all. Connected with this new calling is "the appearing'. Search the Scriptures written after Acts 28:28 and you will find no mention of the return of the Lord. When describing the hope of the Church which is His body Paul does not choose to use the words "come" or "coming". Rather he chooses, under the inspiration of God, to use the words "appear" and "appearing."
If words that the Holy Ghost uses to teach by mean anything then there is much we can learn. We learn that the believer in the dispensation of the grace of God (Eph. 3:2) looks for something other than the COMING OF THE LORD. The believer's hope is now tied in with the "appearing of the Lord" in Glory.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
That is, when the Lord Jesus Christ appears in the heavenly places we will appear with Him there. He is presently hid in God in the heavenlies. But when He is manifested in the highest glory then will the Church of the One Body be manifested with Him in that sphere. Not in the lower atmosphere, or in the clouds but "far above all" (Eph.1:21), "far above all heavens"(Eph.4:10)
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing (not His coming) of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1Tim. 6:14)
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing (not His coming) and his kingdom" (2Tim.4:1)
"Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing (not His coming)" (2Tim. 4:8)
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;" (Titus 2:13).
It should be clearly apparent that there is indeed a difference in the words "come", "coming" and "appear", "appearing". The first two sentences of the Lord Jesus Christ leaving a place, namely the heavenlies, and going to another, namely the lower atmosphere. There some saints will meet Him and will accompany Him back to earth, namely the Mount of Olives. While the other set of words do not intimate any movement on the part of Christ, but rather simply a manifestation (i.e. appearing visibly to the heavenly creatures from whom He is now veiled off). When He "appears" to those creatures in heavenly places (i.e. in Glory) the Church of this dispensation will "appear with Him" in that sphere "far above all heavens." For His Church of the One Body has been demonstrating to those creatures the Lord's manifold wisdom(Eph.3:10).
We are instructed to "rightly divide" and to "approve things that are excellent." The two hopes must then be rightly divided. One belongs to the Pentecostal church, the other to the Church, the Body of Christ. The two hopes must be distinguished in order to approve the things more excellent (Phil 1:10, Rom. 2:8).
Only the Church which is His Body has the promise of enjoying heavenly places. No other company of God's redeemed has such a glorious privilege, for heavenly places is not just a place of splendor and magnificence. God is the Father of the place of Glory (Eph.1:17). It can truly be said that Glory will be the future dwelling place of the Church of the One Body. The distinctions are clearly drawn in the Word of God between the "coming" and the "appearing." May the Father of Glory give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation and enlightened eyes to see what is the hope of the calling of the Church over which Christ Jesus is the Head.
IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
Before Jesus came, where did one's soul go after death?
Before Christ's death on the cross at Calvary, the souls of the dead went to Hades, a supernatural place somewhere in the heart of the earth. Hades has two compartments, the abode of the lost called in the Bible "torment," and the other side, the place of the saints of God called Paradise, and also referred to as "Abraham's Bosom."
When Jesus gave up His Spirit to death, He went into the Paradise side of Hades and "took captivity captive." This means He took all the souls of the saints who had died to that point to be with God the Father in Heaven. The Paradise side of Hades is now empty. The torment side today holds all souls of people who rejected Christ's salvation, and who have died to this point in human history. People who are saved by believing in Christ today, and who die, now go directly to God, the Father, in Heaven.
"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Mt. 12:40).
"Because You will not leave my soul in Hades, or allow Your Holy One to see decay" (Acts 2:27).
"Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?" (Eph. 4:8-9).
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
It isn't the soul that sleeps at death, but the body that goes to sleep. Listed below are some verses that disprove "soul sleep."
Phil. 1:21-24--"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain…But I am hardpressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake."
Paul says when he dies it is gain, that he departs, and that he is with Christ which is very much better. If Paul believed in "soul sleep," then he should have wished that he could live for over a hundred years on earth so he could keep ministering. But the benefit of dying is to be immediately with Christ, which is "very much better" than remaining on earth. He couldn't have said this if he believed in "soul sleep." Paul also used the word "departure" (the departing of his spirit to heaven) in 2 Tim. 4:6, referring to his death.
2 Cor. 5:6,8-9--"…while at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. We are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. Therefore also we have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
"Paul is again speaking of his inner man leaving his body at death to be with the Lord. He also said he preferred to be absent from his body so he could be with Jesus. Notice he said we could only be "at home or absent," not in an in-between state like soul sleep.
Matt. 22:31-32--"But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read that which was spoken to you by God, saying 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.
"Jesus revealed that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were not dead, but living. Their bodies had died, but their souls and spirits were alive awaiting the resurrection of their bodies.
Luke 23:43--When Jesus was dying on the cross He said to the thief, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in paradise.
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
|
posted
2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them
--------------------
Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
