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Topic: The Holocaust
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barrykind
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posted
ok..?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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As Romans 6:1-2 ask the same question you are asking "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Just because one is forgiven, one does not have free reign to sin and live like a devil. We as believers are commanded to live a life seperate from this world Romans 12:1-2 (Amplified Version) I appeal to you therefore, brethern ( those who have known Christ and been sealed), and beg of you in view of(all) the mercies of God, to make a decisive dedication of your bodies (presenting all your members and faculties) as a LIVING SACRIFICE , holy ( devoted, consecrated) and well pleasing to God, which is your reasonable ( rational, intelligent) service and spiritual worship. DO NOT BE CONFORMED to this world (this age), (fashioned after and adapted to its external, superficial customs) , but BE TRANSFORMED (changed) by the (entire) renewal of your mind ( by its new ideals and its new attitude as new man ressurrected), so that you may prove (for yourselves) what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God (in His sight for you).
God demands righteousness from all, but God demands the believer to walk in truth and in spirit as God is a Spirt. As you read Romans chapter 6 Paul who is called of God is talking to believers who have accepted Jesus as their Savour and not the general lost. When we were buried in the waters of baptism we went vicarously attached to the very burial of Christ so that we may know who is in control of our new birth and that is Jesus the Christ. Romans 6:5 indicates For if we have become one with Him by sharing a death like His, we shall also be one with Him in sharing His resurrection by a new life lived for God.
(Rom 6:1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
(Rom 6:2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
(Rom 6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
(Rom 6:4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(Rom 6:5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
(Rom 6:6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(Rom 6:8) Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
(Rom 6:9) Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
(Rom 6:10) For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
(Rom 6:11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 6:12) Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
(Rom 6:13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
(Rom 6:14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(Rom 6:15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(Rom 6:16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(Rom 6:17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
In conclusion as Apostle Paul who was anointed by the Holy Spirit and being guided by God himself Paul said it best in Romans chapter 6:17-23 we must obey God willing and not as law of yoke given to the Jews, but as a law of grace. Being a Sefardic-Ashkenazi Jew and converted to Christ on April 17, 1967 as my Messiah I have found the law without God's grace is a law of burden and opression because we assume that if we work to earn salvation apart from Christ we could never attain holiness that is pleasing to God. For once sin reigns and have taken over your thoughts and deeds of your hands and labour, you are serving yourself and not God. We must correct the wrong by changing the worldly behaviour to Godly behaviour that is only in Christ alone through repentance. I am confident that I have put my faith in Jesus the Christ and was baptized into his death and resurrected to a new man but now as Paul said a war goes on daily between serving God purily and the iniquity that rules the world comes creeping in from time to time and therefore I die daily falling in complete submission before my Lord that I have sinned emplore Him to lead me in the paths of your righteousness.
(Rom 6:19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
(Rom 6:20) For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
(Rom 6:21) What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
(Rom 6:22) But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
(Rom 6:23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Carol Swenson
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Are you saying we tell people it's okay to sin?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
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barrykind
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Partially what you have said in the posts youve made here Carol..but where you stated:
quote:
As Jesus says, “If the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive” (Luke 17:4 NRSV).
So how should Christians respond to unrepentant offenders? Frankly, one of the most damaging things we can do is to absolve them unilaterally of their wrong. For if we do, we have effectively made it more difficult for them to acknowledge their wrong in the first place.
So the Christian obligation is not to ignore our feelings of anger or hurt, nor to cover things over by a cheery face, but to lay the offences of those who harm us at the foot of the cross and, as God does in Christ Jesus, to be ready to forgive when the offenders acknowledge their wrong. But whatever we do we should not forgive offences until offenders recognize their need for it.
Are you saying that we only forgive one who is repentant and asks for forgiveness?
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Forgiveness was given, but it is up to each man, child and woman to receive. They must be proactive on their parts to confess they are sinners and advocate Jesus as the Lord and Christ who paid the price for this forgiveness that do not require blood of bulls or goats
Isn't that what I said?
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The one thief imitated the mockery of the religious leaders and asked Jesus to rescue him from the cross, but the other thief had different ideas. He may have reasoned, “If this Man is indeed the Christ, and if He has a kingdom, and if He has saved others, then He can meet my greatest need which is salvation from sin. I am not ready to die!” It took courage for this thief to defy the influence of his friend and the mockery of the crowd, and it took faith for him to trust a dying King! When you consider all that he had to overcome, the faith of this thief is astounding.
The man was saved wholly by grace; it was the gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9). He did not deserve it and he could not earn it. His salvation was personal and secure, guaranteed by the word of Jesus Christ. The man hoped for some kind of help in the future, but Jesus gave him forgiveness that very day, and he died and went with Jesus to paradise (2 Cor. 12:1-4).
(Wiersbe)
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Eduardo Grequi
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Yes both thieves were forgiven because Jesus said, "Forgive them Father For they know not what the do!"
The one on the right responded to Jesus by admitting (confessing) Jesus to be pure and without sin and that thief said he does not deserve this punishment, the other even though Jesus offered forgiveness would not take it but mocked Jesus. You see Jesus offers everyone forgiveness but it is up to the individual to accept it. Grace is attached to forgiveness which is through the blood of Jesus. If we do not have an attitude of forgiveness then we will be incline to bear grudges. Have you ever heard of Corrie Ten Boom. I met her once when I was in Europe. But at the time I do not know her personally. When she was delivering a testimony in East Germany at a church a man in the distant approached her and when she saw that man's eyes she knew who that person was. It was the that nazi gestaupo who tortured her and her sister and the other family of hers. Corrie's life flashed before her and for a moment in time in shock and speechless. The nazi on that day founded Jesus as Saviout and asked Corrie forgive me for what I did for I did not know what I was doing! Corrie at first was hesistant to forgive but then she remember the Lord's prayer and the word became alive within her "If you do not forgive others, than the Father will not for you!. She decided forgiveness was the will of God and to be remained begrudged is the tool of Satan. I understand discipline but I also understand the one who walks with God must be holy as He is holy. Forgiveness was given, but it is up to each man, child and woman to receive. They must be proactive on their parts to confess they are sinners and advocate Jesus as the Lord and Christ who paid the price for this forgiveness that do not require blood of bulls or goats. To walk with Jesus means to walk in His foot steps when we go into the water we are advocating, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do!" And when we come out of the water we come out justified because of faith when we acted upon His grace.
Carol you speak strong words but remember to listen to Jesus what he spoke on the cross. That is where all Christians must start out.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Carol Swenson
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Church discipline is to the church member what family discipline is to a child: it is an exercise of, and evidence of, correcting love. When a parent disciplines his child, he is not a judge punishing a criminal; he is a loving father seeking to make his child a better person.
Personal differences between Christians (Matt. 18:15-18; Phil. 4:1-3).
If a brother or sister sins against me (either deliberately or unknowingly), I should go to that person privately and seek to get the matter settled. Only if the person refuses to settle the matter should I bring anyone else in; and the problem must not go to the church family until every other means has been exhausted.
In my pastoral ministry, I have seen many problems of this type. The big mistake Christians make when another believer wrongs them is in telling the pastor or other members, and not going to the person directly. Another mistake is in trying to win an argument instead of trying to win the sinning brother.
Doctrinal error.
Determine first of all why the person is teaching wrong doctrine. Perhaps it is because of ignorance and lack of Bible knowledge. In that case, patiently teach him the truth (2 Tim. 2:23-26). If he persists, rebuke him (Titus 1:10-14). Paul had to do this to Peter (Gal. 2:11ff). If the error continues, avoid him (Rom. 16:17-18), and then separate yourself from him (2 Tim. 2:18ff; 2 John 9ff).
A believer overtaken by sin (Gal. 6:1-3).
Even the great Apostle Peter denied the Lord. And David yielded to lust and committed adultery. When a Christian is caught in known sin, the spiritual members of the church must seek to restore him with gentleness and love. The word restore here means “to set a broken bone”—and that takes tenderness and patience. Too often the church quickly passes judgment on a believer who has sinned, and the damage done causes problems for years to come.
A repeating troublemaker (Titus 3:10).
The word heretic does not refer to doctrinal error, but to a proud attitude of one who gets people to “take sides” in the church. The Greek word means “to make a choice.” This leads to divisions and cliques in the local church (see Gal. 5:20 where heresies ought to be translated “sects, parties”). There is hardly a church that does not have its parties for or against anything—the pastor, the building program, even the color of the kitchen walls. Usually these “heretics” are people who like to be important; they want a following. Often they have deep emotional problems that Satan can use to create spiritual problems in the church. Perhaps they are frustrated at home or on the job; or perhaps they have, in the past, been hurt by some pastor or church.
These “factious people” should be given two official warnings. If they repeat their sin of dividing the church, they should be given a third warning and rejected. “Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned” (Titus 3:10-11, niv).
It is my conviction that such people should not hold office in the church. It is also my conviction that, if they leave the church “in a huff,” they should be restored to fellowship only twice. The third time—they are out!
Open immorality (1 Cor. 5).
The church must mourn over the sinner (the same word is used for mourning over the dead) and seek to bring him to repentance. If he refuses, the church collectively should dismiss him (1 Cor. 5:13, where the Greek word means “expel”). If he repents, he must be forgiven and restored to fellowship in the church (2 Cor. 2:6-11).
In the case of the “lazy saints,” Paul told the believers to exhort them, warn them, and if they did not repent, withdraw intimate fellowship from them. This probably meant that these believers were not permitted to share in the Lord’s Supper, and that the church members would not invite them to their homes. Second Thessalonians 3:14 does not apply to every case of discipline. It applies only to the matter of saints not working for a living.
“Have no company” literally means “do not get mixed up with”; the same word is used in 1 Corinthians 5:9. There is a difference between acquaintanceship, friendship, and fellowship; for fellowship means “to have in common.” For obedient saints to treat disobedient Christians with the same friendship they show to other dedicated saints is to give approval to their sins.
However, Paul (knowing the tendency of human nature to go to extremes) cautioned them not to treat the offenders like enemies. “They are still your brothers in Christ,” he added. Lot was out of fellowship with God and Abraham because he lived in Sodom; yet Abraham rescued Lot from the enemy because Lot was his brother (Gen. 14, and note especially v. 14). It requires much patience, love, and grace to help an erring brother; and this is why Paul added a final motive for earning a living.
(Wiersbe)
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Carol Swenson
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Those who repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness are forgiven. There is no Universal Salvation. Did He forgive both thieves on the cross?
Anyway, to not forgive does not mean to harbor bitterness and anger. God does not desire that any should perish, yet many will because they won't repent and come to Christ.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Carol -
Have you forgotten when Jesus was on the cross, "He said-"Father forgive them for they know not what they do"-
(Mat 6:9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.(Mat 6:10) Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Mat 6:11) Give us this day our daily bread.(Mat 6:12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
(Mat 6:13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
(Mat 6:14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:(Mat 6:15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
(Mat 9:4) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?
(Mat 9:5) For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?(Mat 9:6) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
(Mat 18:21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?(Mat 18:22) Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
(Mat 18:34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. (Mat 18:35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
(Mar 11:25) And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.(Mar 11:26) But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.
(Luk 6:27) But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
(Luk 6:28) Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. (Luk 6:29) And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. (Luk 6:30) Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.(Luk 6:31) And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
(Luk 6:32) For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.(Luk 6:33) And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.(Luk 6:34) And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
(Luk 6:35) But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.(Luk 6:36) Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.(Luk 6:37) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
(Luk 6:38) Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
(2Co 2:7) so that, on the contrary, you should rather forgive and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overwhelming sorrow.(2Co 2:8) So I beseech you to confirm your love toward him.(2Co 2:9) For to this end I also wrote, that I might know the proof of you, whether you are obedient in all things.(2Co 2:10) But to whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if I forgave anything, for your sakes I forgave it to him in the person of Christ;(2Co 2:11) so that we should not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his devices.
Forgiveness does not me to abandom consequences of the tregressor of what ever the reason you were wrong. Imagine if Jesus did not declare unilateral forgiveness on all mankind but would add to it "When they seek my will". Having an attitude and heart for prayer and forgiveness is the will of God and if it is the will of God therefore it is law of God. There is the Brethern who are your Christian brothers and sisters and there are those who are lost who by the same words uttered Jesus "Father forgive them" why He said, "for they know not what they do"
Knowledge and wisdom comes after we are born again and not before. So if the lost are not born again they are blinded by evil and will not see the folly of their ways.
(Jas 1:5) But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and with no reproach, and it shall be given to him.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Carol Swenson
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As Jesus says, “If the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive” (Luke 17:4 NRSV).
So how should Christians respond to unrepentant offenders? Frankly, one of the most damaging things we can do is to absolve them unilaterally of their wrong. For if we do, we have effectively made it more difficult for them to acknowledge their wrong in the first place.
So the Christian obligation is not to ignore our feelings of anger or hurt, nor to cover things over by a cheery face, but to lay the offences of those who harm us at the foot of the cross and, as God does in Christ Jesus, to be ready to forgive when the offenders acknowledge their wrong. But whatever we do we should not forgive offences until offenders recognize their need for it.
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TB125
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I think so. To withhold the "gift" of forgiveness from a person who has not repented is to hold onto some bitterness for his or her "offensive" act or attitude. And the bitterness can become a festering poison in the life of the unforgiving victim. See my statement on "forgiveness" at http://christianityetc.org/forgiveness.php
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Bob
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barrykind
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Forgive and ye shall be forgiven
What powerful words the Master Spoke..
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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Well said and we need to remember to teach forgiveness as well. Holocaust such a word that the shedding of innocent blood occurs as if there is no other way. Today being the celebrate day of Atonement may we come to terms within ourselves to help save the child and persaude the would be mother that Jesus too was a step child to Joseph but a son to the living God. Embrace your mother and respect her, for she was the chosen vessel in which God formed you in the uniqueness you are. Imagine if you will if Joseph would had decided to execute Mary while she was pregnant how different the years and days would be if this step-son of Joseph the son of David was murdered while in his mother's womb.
from the book Why Forgive?
Forgiving Ourselves
Without being forgiven, released from the consequences of what we have
done, our capacity to act would, as it were, be confined to a single deed from
which we could never recover; we would remain the victims of its consequences
forever, not unlike the sorcerer’s apprentice who lacked the magic
formula to break the spell.
Ha nnah Arendt
when we assure a person who has hurt us that we no longer hold anything against him, all he has to do is accept our kindness – at least that is what we might hope. But that is often more easily said than done. For many people, the problem of guilt cannot be solved with another’s forgiveness, or by any external means at all. For them, peace of mind comes only when they are able to forgive themselves.
I first met Delf Fransham in 1953. That was the year he moved from the United States to the remote South American village where I grew up and began to teach at the local school. There were eleven of us in his class, all boys, and all ruffians, and a few days into his first term we decided to put him to the test.
One typical Paraguayan morning (humid and around 110 degrees), we offered to take him on a hike. Officially, we wanted to show him the sights. Privately, we wanted to see what he was made of. After leading him at least ten kilometers through jungle, prairie, and swampland, we finally turned back. Shortly after we arrived home he collapsed with heat stroke.
Delf was in bed for days, but we hardly gave it a thought. We had achieved exactly what we wanted – proved him a sissy. But we were in for a small surprise. The day he came back to school he said, “Boys, let’s try that hike again.” We couldn’t believe it! We covered the same route again and, sure enough, this time he did not succumb to the heat. Delf won our respect and our hearts that day, and we trusted him from then on. (There was something else to it, too: a talented athlete, he taught us soccer and loved to play with us.)
Decades later, and only by chance, I found out why Delf had poured so much love and energy into reaching his students. He had lost a child of his own.
Nicholas was born when the Franshams were still living in the United States, and one day as Delf was backing a truckload of firewood into their driveway, two-year-old Nicholas, who was playing outdoors, ran to meet his father. Delf did not see him until it was too late, and ran over him.
Katie, Delf’s wife, was busy inside the house when he carried in their little boy, limp in his arms. She remembers:
I was beside myself – absolutely frantic – but Delf steadied me. We took
Nicholas to our doctor, who was also the coroner, and explained what had
happened…
There was never any question about forgiving my husband, as I knew I
was just as much to blame. Likewise he did not blame me, only himself. We
stood in our sorrow together.
Delf, however, could not forgive himself, and the accident haunted him for years. From then on, he went out of his way to make time for children – time he could not spend with the son he had killed.
Looking back, I remember how his eyes often glistened with tears, and wonder what it was that made them come. Was it that he saw his son in us? Was he imagining the boy his toddler would never become? Whatever the reason, it seems that Delf’s determination to show love to others was his way of making up for the anguish he had caused himself and his family by unintentionally taking a life. I am convinced that it saved him from brooding, and from nursing his feelings of guilt. Through loving others he was able to forgive himself and regain a sense of wholeness and peace.
John plummer lives the quiet life of a Methodist pastor in a sleepy Virginia town these days, but things weren’t always so. A helicopter pilot during the
Why Forgive? 74
Vietnam War, he helped organize a napalm raid on the village of Trang Bang in 1972 – a bombing immortalized by the prize-winning photograph of one of its victims, Phan Thi Kim Phuc.
For the next twenty-four years, John was haunted by the photograph – an image that for many people captured the essence of the war: a naked and burned nine-year-old running toward the camera, with plumes of black smoke billowing in the sky behind her.
For twenty-four years John’s conscience tormented him. He badly wanted to find the girl to tell her that he was sorry – but he could not. Turning in on himself, he grew more and more depressed (the collapse of two marriages didn’t help), and he began to drink.
Then, in an almost unbelievable coincidence, John met Kim during an event at the Vietnam War Memorial on Veterans Day, 1996. Kim had come to Washington, D.C., to lay a wreath for peace; John had come with a group of former pilots unable to come to terms with their shared past, but determined to stick together anyway.
In a speech to the crowd, Kim introduced herself as the girl in the famous photograph. She still suffered immensely from her burns, she said, but she was not bitter, and she wanted people to know that others had suffered even more than she had: “Behind that picture of me, thousands and thousands of people…died. They lost parts of their bodies. Their whole lives were destroyed, and nobody took their picture.”
Kim went on to say that although she could not change the past, she had forgiven the men who had bombed her village, and that she felt a calling to promote peace by fostering goodwill between America and Vietnam. John, beside himself, pushed through the crowds and managed to catch her attention before she was whisked away by a police escort. He identified himself as a former pilot in Vietnam and said that he felt responsible for the bombing of her village twenty-four years before. He says:
Kim saw my grief, my pain, my sorrow…She held out her arms to me and embraced me. All I could say was “I’m sorry; I’m sorry” – over and over again. And at the same time she was saying, “It’s all right, I forgive you.”
John says that it was vital for him to meet face to face with Kim, and to tell her that he had agonized for years over her injuries. Without having had the chance to get that off his chest, he is not sure he could have ever forgiven
Why Forgive? 75
himself. As it turned out, of course, he got even more than he hoped for: Kim forgave him.
Reflecting on the way the incident changed his life, John maintains that forgiveness is “neither earned nor even deserved, but a gift.” It is also a mystery. He still can’t quite grasp how a short conversation could wipe away a twenty-four-year nightmare.
paT, anoTher vieTnam veTeran, is a gentle, quiet man who loves children and horses. In the seven years since I first met him, however, I have become aware that he has a darker side – one that centers on his inability to forgive himself:
Death is on my mind a lot. The deaths I have caused – and wanting my own death – are with me every day. I joke around a lot with the people I work with. I have to, to hide the pain and to keep my mind from thinking. I need to laugh. Laughing keeps the blues away.
But I cannot love. Part of my soul is missing, and it seems I won’t ever get it back. I don’t know if I can ever forgive myself for all of my wrongs. I live day to day, but I am tired all the time – tired. Will it ever end? I don’t see how. It’s been with me over twenty-five years now.
People like Pat are often urged to receive formal counseling, to join a support group, or to attend group therapy meetings so as to compare notes with others who have had similar experiences. He has done all of this, and still not found peace. Perhaps, like John, he wishes he could meet the families of those he killed – an unlikely opportunity – or bring the victims themselves back to life so he could ask their forgiveness – an obviously impossible one. So what should he do?
A conversation Robert Coles once had with the psychoanalyst Anna Freud may hint at an answer. Discussing an elderly client with a long and troubled psychological history, Freud suddenly concluded:
You know, before we say good-bye to this lady, we should wonder among ourselves not only what to think – we do that all the time! – but what in the world we would want for her. Oh, I don’t mean psychotherapy; she’s had lots of that. It would take more years, I suspect, of psychoanalysis than the good Lord has given her…No, she’s had her fill of “us,” even if she doesn’t know it…This poor old lady doesn’t need us at all…What she needs…is forgiveness. She needs to make peace with her soul, not talk
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about her mind. There must be a God, somewhere, to help her, to hear her, to heal her…and we certainly aren’t the ones who will be of assistance to her in that regard!
Freud’s point is a valid one, even for a person who claims to have no belief in God. At some level, all of us must come to terms with the parts of ourselves that we wish we could erase. All of us yearn for the freedom to live without guilt. At some level, every one of us longs for forgiveness.
Yet when all is said and done, we cannot acquire it. Sometimes the person we have wronged is unable or unwilling to forgive us. Sometimes we are unable or unwilling to forgive ourselves. Even the best psychoanalysis, the most earnest confession of guilt, may not be enough to assure us of lasting relief or healing.
But the power of forgiveness still exists, and as John Plummer found out, it can work wonders even when we are sure that we have neither earned nor deserved it. It comes to us as a gift, often when we feel least worthy of receiving it. Finally, like any gift, it can be accepted or rejected. What we do with it isup tous.
Why Forgive? 77
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35
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posted
The Holocaust.
A vision of slaughter I have seen in pictures. They seem so far away, yet so near to my heart.
How could it be? How could humanity be so cruel? More than six million killed in the days of slaughter. Yet many stood by with excuses in their hearts. Some looked the other way, pretending it didn't happen.
"They aren't really human" some said in those days. They were used for medical research, thrown away in dumps. Some burned, others dismembered or tortured beyond recognition. A decision was made that these people were not worth living. But these were not given the choice to live or die. They were forced to enter the gates of death. They were trapped, they were confined, unable to escape or even understand what was happening to them.
Indeed, millions were executed for the convenience of the powers that were. It wasn't fair, nor was it right for so many to die for no good cause at all.
If only we had spoken in the days of the holocaust, we would not have let such evil happen. Surely we would have stopped the tyranny. Surely we would have not stood by. Surely we would have cried out for them. Surely we would have delivered them that were drawn toward death.
But it wasn't Hitler who directed this slaughter, nor was it the Nazi's who brought their doom. It was the selfish mothers who killed these innocent. Children in the comfort of a mother's womb.
It was far more than six million. Over 40 million since 1973. On average, 3000-4000 children a day are murdered by their own mother in the United States alone. Many would save them and give them a home..if only they legally could.
I wish I could.
tom M
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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27
Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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