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Author Topic: Near Death Experiences
jumpinjack
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MentorsRiddle....
I rest my case. The responses we got were predicted, were they not?

Just for the record. In Christ's day, it was common for preachers to "model" thier ministry after a predecessor. When the hearers recognized this practice, they would refer to the minister as being the "return" of this or that prophet. This is peobably what was meant when Christ told His hearers that Elijah had already been amongst them - but that they had not recognized it. many of the disciples had not been in John the baptists congregatiojn before attaching themselves to Christ's following. John the Baptist had modeled his ministry after that of Elijah. Just thought that might be halpful to you. I won't ask where you got the information about the early christians espousing reincarnation in present company, for obvious reasons.

It's Kinda like what Paul wrote about "eating meat" in the presence of other believers. Some folks are really easily offended, especially when they get left out of the conversation.

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KnowHim
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MentorsRiddle you are welcome to ask your questions but NOONE is welcome to give you false information. This site is based on the bible not on mans opinion.

>>> Again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way, nor did I intend to insult you -- we just have slightly different views on certain topics.

My views come from the word of God. This is my view.


.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
I DO beleive in the Bible with 100% of my heart, and I HAVE read sections that lead me to beleive in reincarnation in more than one section, which have not been explained by biblical scholors.
The concept of reincarnation is completely without foundation in the Bible, which clearly tells us that we die once and then face judgment (Hebrews 9:27). The Bible never mentions people having a second chance at life or coming back as different people or animals. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), not "You will have another chance to live a life on this earth." Matthew 25:46 specifically tells us that believers go on to eternal life while unbelievers go onto eternal punishment. Reincarnation has been a popular belief for thousands of years, but it has never been accepted by Christians or followers of Judaism because it is contradictory to Scripture.

The one passage that some point to as evidence for reincarnation is Matthew 17:10-12 which links John the Baptist with Elijah. However, the passage does not say that John the Baptist was Elijah reincarnated but that he would have fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming if the people had believed his words and thereby believed in Jesus as the Messiah (Matthew 17:12). The people specifically asked John the Baptist if he was Elijah, and he said, "No, I am not" (John 1:21).

http://www.gotquestions.org/reincarnation.html


The concept of karma is closely associated with reincarnation. Karma is essentially the law of cause and effect. Those that profess belief in karma teach that the deeds (good or bad) of one's past lives affect this present life. Further, ones present deeds will have ramifications for future lives.

In other words, the law of sowing and reaping is not limited to this present life but rather continues throughout eternity.

In much of the Orient, this strict belief in karma has resulted in a hopeless, pessimistic view of life. Their lives are seen as dreary, endless cycles of suffering and rebirth. Because of this endless chain of karma, reincarnation does not resolve the problem of evil, but simply points toward the impossible goal of perfection and self-salvation, the ultimate freedom from reincarnation. In modern, western reincarnation, the objective is to join with “ultimate reality,” merging with God and becoming God. Modern reincarnation often promotes the divinity of the soul and denies the biblical concept of a sovereign, personal God.

The Bible also contradicts the belief in karma by emphasizing grace. According to the Bible, atonement and forgiveness may be gained only through the death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is based solely upon the work of Jesus Christ, not upon our own merits. The concepts of reincarnation and karma are in clear contrast to Hebrews 9:27, "For it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment." Paul clearly states that the soul does not transmigrate into another living body, but goes to await judgment.

For the Christian, Paul promised that death is the means to being in the presence of Jesus, "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord (heaven). 2 Corinthians 5:8" It is clear that the Bible does not allow for the concept of reincarnation.

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r009.html

King James Bible & Reincarnation
http://www.powerattunements.com/article42.html

Does the Bible Teach Reincarnation? The New Age - A New Twist
http://www.watchman.org/na/new.htm

Reincarnation in the Bible
http://www.allaboutspirituality.org/reincarnation-in-the-bible-faq.htm


...and more like these.

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MentorsRiddle
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quote:
Well that is because a real Christian don't doubt the bible.

>>> I think some things have been hidden from us by the powers that be, which keep us in the dark.

Until you know the powers to be is the God of the bible you will never be in the light and out of the dark.

>>>Sometimes I feel like I have so many peices of a grand puzzle, but can't figure out how to put them all together.

Sounds like you don't believe the bible so you are going the wrong way to figure it out.[/quote

1. I never said I doubted the bible. NEVER!
That is an unfair judgement on your part KnowHim. I was having a conversation with Mr. Jack. This is a CHRISTIAN message board, where I thought we were supposed to come with questions. This is also the General Discussions section of the forum -- an we are having a conversation and discussion over something that DOES pertain to Christianity -- for early Christians DID beleive in re-incarnation and other things which the modern church does not.

2. [quote]Until you know the powers to be is the God of the bible you will never be in the light and out of the dark.

I was not refering to GOD as the powers that be -- for God would be a POWER that is, not a power's that be. I was refering to evil people that live in this world who would shut out truth and hide the truth form us to keep us under their thumb. I could tell from MR. Jacks responses that he knew exactly what I was talking about, and I find it very kind of him to answer my questions and talk to me about what I had a question over -- again this is the general discussion forum.

3.
quote:
Sounds like you don't believe the bible so you are going the wrong way to figure it out
You said that it SOUNDS like I don't beleive in the bible. But that is a judgement upon appearance... and what does the Bible say about that? It says Judge not upon appearance, but judge a rightious judgement.

You have judged me unrightously.

See, it's responses like the ones you just gave to me that turn people away from Christianity. Your Judgement, when people are simply curious and have questions.

Like I do....

I DO beleive in the Bible with 100% of my heart, and I HAVE read sections that lead me to beleive in reincarnation in more than one section, which have not been explained by biblical scholors.

I never said I beleive in it, I just had questions on it because of the verses I read. So, ban me if you want to -- but I don't really think I have done anything wrong.

I have been on this forum for years now -- and have enjoied meeting people and learning about our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

I have enjoied many of the posts you have made and studied them with great happiness in my heart -- that you would take the time to write them out for our edification.

I love you my brother, but please, it hurts my feelings and heart when you respond the way you do.

We may not beleive in exactly the same thing - but I think we can both agree that Jesus is the one true son of God, who died for our sins.

And the bible said, "who so ever shall beleive in him (jesus) should not perish, but have ever lasting life."

Again, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way, nor did I intend to insult you -- we just have slightly different views on certain topics.

Just like Babtist Church and Church of Christ -- different views.

Again, the questions I pose are directly related to questions I have from the bible over things I have read.

and no matter what happens, Mr. Jack -- thank you for your time in responding to me and my question.

Also, Know Him, when I was speaking of Christians calling me evil for asking questions -- I was not speaking about ANYONE on this forum, but was talking about people from my real life.

Again, if you ban me, thank you for the time you have allowed me to ask my questions -- and I'll see you one day as we dwell with the Lord.

God Bless

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by MentorsRiddle:
Also, I'm sure you realize how hard it is to find a Christian who is even willing to speak of these things without calling me an evil person.
[Big Grin]

Well that is because a real Christian don't doubt the bible.

>>> I think some things have been hidden from us by the powers that be, which keep us in the dark.

Until you know the powers to be is the God of the bible you will never be in the light and out of the dark.

>>>Sometimes I feel like I have so many peices of a grand puzzle, but can't figure out how to put them all together.

Sounds like you don't believe the bible so you are going the wrong way to figure it out.

----------------
From the Quotes Board:

Trying to do the Lord's work in your own strength is the most confusing, exhausting, and tedious of all work. But when you are filled with the Holy Spirit, then the ministry of Jesus just flows out of you.
--Corrie ten Boom

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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by jumpinjack:
Beyond that...I can't say much without offending someone, here. I've probably already gone to far. I'm probably gonna get a sermon on the "inspiration of scripture" as it is.

No, actually you are very, very close to being banned. The bible is the inspired word of God and not you are not welcome to come on here and say other wise as you are not God!

Nor are you welcome to bad mouth us for defending it.

David

.

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jumpinjack
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Well put. I've been pretty much told to just keep my mouth shut on this board - for the most part. You might want to check out the post entitled "sinless perfection", though. I've came to realise that it's sometimes best not to say anyhting that would put pressure on anyone's cherished dogmas. Most of what we've always been told is the result of our human need for standardization. If careful research and scientific fact doesn't match what I've been taught, my response is NOT to assume that Gods' "inspired" truth is right and everything else is "wrong". I'm quite sure that God's entire creation is consistent with HIS truth becuase He is NOT the auther of confusion. I tend to think that the knowledge of the author limits what he can comprehend and, therefor, what he writes down in any book - inspired or otherwise. I'm unabashedly unafraid to look in "extrabiblcal" commentaries to find additional information, and trust the Spirit ot Truth to lead me to "divide the word of Truth" from it's surrounding error. I know that my body is the temple of the Father, Son, and Spirit - and do NOT feel the need to deify ANY body of writing and/or writings into some kind of fetish. I well understand the reactions of those who do, however - and am learning not to eat "meat" where it offends my brothers.

To me, bibliolatry is really no different than idolatry - and is a root cause of a good percentage of dissention, not only amongst christians but...between religionists the world over. If it wasn't for our insistance on "sacred" writings (and the exclusion of all others) you would think the human race could achieve world peace much more easily. But..not so we would just find some other reason to kill one another.

Problem is, without a belief in our fetish texts -we tend to deny God, reject morality as "bigotry", and treat each other like much less than brothers anyway. Fact is until we realize that there is ONLY ONE HEAVENLY FATHER, we'll NEVER recognize each other as BROTHERS. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL know there is only ONE GOD. But....because they have different written texts in different languages, even we don't all recognise our kinship.

These aren't very popular concepts amongst those who subscribe to the theory that the absolute truth of God can be forced into the mold of human language - let alone one or another specific collection of books and letters.

Beyond that...I can't say much without offending someone, here. I've probably already gone to far. I'm probably gonna get a sermon on the "inspiration of scripture" as it is.

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MentorsRiddle
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Why do I ask?

Well, honestly your statements spark my interest.

Also, I'm sure you realize how hard it is to find a Christian who is even willing to speak of these things without calling me an evil person.

So, your answer: it's refreshing to speak to a Christian with out a closed mind.

[Big Grin]

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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jumpinjack
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Why do you ask what I believe?
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MentorsRiddle
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There have been times I've questioned if this world is in actuality a prision of sorts.

I really don't know.

All I know is that I do not beleive this world is the end of us when we expire.

I think some things have been hidden from us by the powers that be, which keep us in the dark.

Sometimes I feel like I have so many peices of a grand puzzle, but can't figure out how to put them all together.

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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jumpinjack
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Tag...you're it! Your turn.
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MentorsRiddle
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Thanks for your reply.

I guess I just enjoy hearing others insights to reality. [Smile]

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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jumpinjack
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LOL.

The word "frown" is a bit of an understatement in my experience. searching for scripture....stand by.....IICor. 12:4 ..."unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Truth is, there's just not much information in the bible about this subject. Anytime we go to extra-biblical sources for information, it's just simply "not lawful".

Nothing new. I suspect there's a reason Enoch and Elijah left alone. I likewise suspect the reason the prophets were usually murdered was very similar. Religion has a tendency to become so dogmatized by the prevalent clergy that ANY additional information is labeled "heresy" straight away.

That's o'kay, though. I think it's human nature to seek the "safety" of prescriptive dogma, leaving the responsibility for defining "truth" to what we are taught. I'm pretty sure that's a phase of spiritual growth we must all go through. Our bodies are truly the temples of the Father, Son, and Spirit. Sooner or later, we'll all come to the point where we can fully trust our Father to lead us "to all truth" on an individual basis without fear - or retribution - of the individual experience. We'll become less and less dependent on "sacred" objects, texts, dogmas, and interpretations as we go. It really does seem kinda scary to us at first to realise that a good percetage of our "frowning" on one another is a direct result of our "secure" belief in "inspired" objects of all kinds.

Witness catholicisms insistant reverance of images of both the crucified Christ AND His birth mother in the flesh. Witness, all the "wars and rumours of wars" that continue to be fought over our venerated and "inspired" sacred texts - to this day.

Nevertheless, without our sacred relics, society falls apsrt. The concept of a Heavenly father is rejected, and all semblance of morality and decency becomes "bigoted". The human race simply can't maintain civilized relations without the veneration of sacred objects - in some fashion or form.

Unfortunately, that leaves those who aren't afraid to seek truth unfettered by the "sacred" boundaries liable to be "frowned" upon - to say the least. We just have to learn to "drive on" while making every attempt not to offend our brothers. I'm pretty new at that part of the game. I've had some "frowns" sent my way, here. That's o'kay, too. I'm more concerned with the possibility that I may offend a brother, than with whether I can proove I'm right anyway.

I just try to stay out of their way as best I can and wait 'till someone asks for something I think I may have. That's the best I can do. Even that can get me into trouble if I say too much.

-peace-

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jumpinjack
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Here I am writing a darned book. One of my pet peeves on a board like this! LOL. I'll try to simplify what I just complicated.

Some folks are translated from the mortal lifetime DIRECTLY into the Masters' presence to recieve further instruction (ref. Enoch, Elijah, the "rapture") while others die, "sleep" for a time, experience resurrection, and continue on into eternity.

I've concluded OBE/NDE is a sort of "preview" which we really aren't fully prepared for yet, which is why we return to live a mortal life. If we were really ready we would be translated and simply be gone from this "fold". If we spend our time becoming acclimated to the needs of eternity, becoming less and less dependent on things of the flesh and - if we live long enough, we will be translated. If not, we will die. Then comes the resurrection and "re-eductaion" in the new "body" - with the eternal assignment becoming more and more apparent and "real" to us.

I've determined that is a much more worthy objective than seeking OBE/NDE. I'm quite sure that if and when my work is done here, I'll be taken - dead or alive! Doesn't matter much to me in the long-run. Although, I would like to live long enough to be allowed to go my way in peace - so to speak.

I also realise that making the "cut" isn't going to happen without a perfect adjustment to the requirements of the mortal experience. I've pretty much reached the settled conclusion that Loveing God, and loving man as Christ loves me is the one lesson we must learn to apply in all lifes' situations. Once we do that to perfection, we come close to being translated.

You say you have some experience with the subject.
I'd be interested in hearing your take on it as well.

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MentorsRiddle
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quote:
I guess I just don't want to leave the impression that I feel like it's a necassarily good thing to try to do.
Don't worry my friend. I will not try this, as I beleive God will allow it to happen on it's own if he deems it fit.

I think there is much more to our soul and eternity than we beleive there to be.

I know many Christians would frown on this type of conversatoin, but I think God gave us our minds for a reason and I intend to use mine to search for truth in a world where truth is protected and hidden more than gold.

Thanks for your reply's on this topic, it is appriciated.

IF you have anything further to add, I would enjoy reading.

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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jumpinjack
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Not exactly. Our experiences once we are translated will progressively become more and more spiritual regardless of our mortal experiences. But..the OBE experience DURING a mortal lifetime find us with a mental framework of personal thought patterns dereived strictly from our mortal existance. They'll tend to meke more sense as we develop a more detailed concept of eternity, and begin to be less dependent upon our mortal needs, desires and such. It's not nearly as compicated as trying to actually put it into words. Abain, it's like trying to force eternal concepts into the forms of mere human language. Kinda like trying to pour a gallon of milk into a pint sized cup.

When I was out, I came back when I started thinking about those things that required a physical body.

I've been thinking about our discussion some - amd feeling uncomfortable. I guess I just don't want to leave the impression that I feel like it's a necassarily good thing to try to do. I do believe I benefitted from the experience, but not necessarily in any way that might not have been possible in other ways. I know that OBE/NDE is a topic common to a lot of really goofy psuedo-religious movements. This tends to leave me a little cold. I was beforehand decidedly focused on the idea that if I couldn't pray to the Father, in the name of Christ, and the power of the Spirit WHILE I was out - I wasn't interested in being there. I didn't leave my immediate physical environment, but all attempts to interact were ineffectual. flipping light switches did nothing, although they were exactly where I "left" them. I couldn't even "find" my body. I couldn't see it or feel it although I was in the same room with it. When I thought about strictly physical activity - I instantly popped back "in" and found myself in axactly the same position I "left" myself in. The lessons I learned have taken years for me to decipher, and could've probably been much more easily discovered without spending the time being destracted with seeking extra-ordinary experiences. That's just my current take on the subject. I haven't necassarily always felt that way (obviously), and don't claim that it's set in stone. But...a careful consideration of the biblical subject of translation in all it's recorded instances has probably been more productive for me personally.

I just don't want to leave anyone with the impression that I think OBE/NDE is necassarily an encouraged practice, although I do recognise the validity of the experience for those who have them. For me...even when I was seeking to use them, I found it's the sort of thing you don't want to do very often. In that sense, it is fairly safe - in that it's "non-addictive" as experiences go. Once I did achieve it, I was just determined to learn more about it. But...after just a few times, I had more than I needed to think about. Problem is...it took a few years for me to realise it. Meanwhile...I spent a lot of unnecessary time and effort trying to re-live the experience.

I'm gonna have to post this, read it and see what I think. Maybe come back to you later on it.

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MentorsRiddle
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So basically what you are saying is that our experiences here and the things we learn and do, determine how we spend our existence outside of the body?

I'm not sure I'm following you 100%, which is unusual for me in this type of discussion -- as I have a great deal of experience with this type of discussion.

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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jumpinjack
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Easy answer: Those things you just can't do without the body. Some things we all have in common, others are unique to you as an individual, some may lie somewhere in-between these extremes. Roughly, if you start trying to do things that require the physical senses then you're on your way back. As long as you cling to these things, you stay in your body.

I can only relate my perceptions from my experience to you, but the information must be kept on a general enough level to allow for your own interpretations of your own experiences to be of any use to you. Don't know for sure where to go with it from here, though. It seems like it helps to have some idea of where I want to go and/or what I want to do before I leave, though. If I can conceive of only three places to go (heaven, hell, earth) then there's really no other choices for me. The reason being that I'm not going to have the physical senses to guide my interactions with whatever envoronment I find myself in - I'm only able to interact with whatever environment my mind can imagine, and only to the degree that I posess detailed information about that environment. The entire subject seems to have a tendency to become extremely ultra-individualistic in a meta-physical sort of way. Even trying to put it into words is really uncomfortable.

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MentorsRiddle
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Thanks everyone for your replies.

Jack, I'll bite.

What is it that keeps you in

I'm intereste OBE's as well.

--------------------
With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

Posts: 1337 | From: Arkansas | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jumpinjack
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NDE/OBE. Now...that's what I call an "experience". One thing I can say is that if you have one...you'll know it - and you'll not soon forget it, either. Death isn't the only way out of the body. It's the kind of thing you can learn to do. It's actually (in a sense) easier to get out than back in. But...once you do ... you'll soon begin to learn what keeps you in. And that, my friend, is when things REALLY start to get interesting!
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Carol Swenson
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I ordered M10.28

Thanks for the promo [Smile]

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KnowHim
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To Hell and Back

Dr. Maurice Rawlings explores our life after death (88 min).

This is a free movie you can watch online. Very, very good!

http://www.tbn.org/films/videos/To_Hell_And_Back.ram

I am NOT promoting TBN, but what can I say this is online free.


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KnowHim
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M10.28 is a movie.

This drama is an intense discussion starter about three teenage girls who attend a party which turns out to be a nightmare! Viewer discretion is advised as this movie presents a very worldly atmosphere, a brief sequence in "hell", and is aimed at a secular audience or very lukewarm group. It will grab people's attention and bring a dose of reality to any viewer. Eternity is coming. You go to heaven or hell. And Jesus Christ is the only answer to make sense of life. Also, if there was ever such a thing as a "Christian" horror film, this is it.

I have this DVD and it is very, very good!!!


http://www.christianfilms.com/m1028dvd.htm


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Video Tracts
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Carol Swenson
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Escape From Hell (Movie)

"Do you believe in life after death? Dr. Eric Robinson wants to believe and experience that infinite love and warmth that near death testimonies claim is on the other side of life. His colleague, Dr. Marissa Holloway, is on a crusade to alleviate the fear of death and suffering by proving to the world that heaven awaits everyone. In a moment of desperation, Dr. Robinson faces death and discovers the reality of hell..."

http://www.christiancinema.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=209

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practicalbibleteaching
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The apostle Paul had one. His would probably be the only one I truly believed because it is recorded in scripture.

2 Cor 12:1-5 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

Luke recorded this happening about 14 years earlier. Acts 14:19-20 ...there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead. Howbeit, as the disciples stood round about him, he rose up, and came into the city: and the next day he departed with Barnabas to Derbe.

Such matters can be hard to discern unless the testimony in some way goes against scripture. I would certainly not promote such testimonies, but unless they violate scripture I would not ridicule them either.

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The Church of Jesus Christ is perfect for those who are not!

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MentorsRiddle
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Does anyone have any thoughts on Near Death Experiences, or have any stories to share?

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With you I rise,
In you I sleep,
kneeling down I kiss your feet,
Grace abounds upon me now,
I once was lost
but now I'm found.
The gift of God dwells within,
To this love I now give in.

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