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Originally posted by KnowHim:
Scriptural Or Dispensational?
http://www.jesusclips.com/view_video.php?viewkey=1ebb5d6ec52986674b6e


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Thanks KnowHim, that was very informative!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Where to begin.

I am compelled to be careful when I encounter a Christian believer with whom it is revealed I am at variance, whether in regard to understanding a single verse of Scripture or in the entire scope of the Bible. This is because (as I stated in one of the few other postings I have made on this board) each of us is given to gather from Scripture that which The Holy Spirit would have us to learn, and each of us is at our own particular stage of the process. We will perhaps never know this side of Glory just how much it is we have to learn, but I am thankful for that which the Spirit has revealed so far, not only to me, but to every believing Christian who is beloved of the LORD.

The scope of your response to what I now see as an ill-conceived and poorly executed posting on my part, and although I have received it in Christian love, resembles a sledgehammer being used to swat a fly. I gather you disagree with my assertion to Billy, which is evident not only by the content but by the sheer volume of your response posting. It seems to me, however, that the hammer, particularly with regard to Mr. Woodward's writings, is cast in a crucible of error.

I say this because that while the author you quote at length has supplied MANY verses of Scripture to support the points he has set out to validate, he fails utterly to discern the differences between the dispensations of Scripture as revealed when the admonishment of 2 Timothy 2:15, which is to rightly divide the Word of Truth, is applied.

I am an Acts 28 dispensationalist who has wandered onto a posting board where the terms "rightly divided" themselves are used in a few postings, many participants are perhaps unfamiliar with the meaning of the Word rightly divided, or with the concept of dispensational truth.

The gulf between our approaches to the Scriptures is wide indeed.

I would ask but three questions before I exit the Christian BBS posting board, which are found in the context of the following verse:

Act 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;"

Compared to the first purpose for the Lord's appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus as it is stated in the above verse:

1) what are the things Paul "hast seen", and;

2) what are those things "in the which I will appear unto thee", and;

3) why does The Lord differentiate?


This posting is made in the love of Christ Jesus our LORD; God bless and keep you always in His perfect care.

apilgrim2

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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
I do want both you and Billy to know I am aware that each of you has asked me several questions that I have not answered. I suspect that this has left Billy, in particular, feeling that I am either unwilling to, or simply cannot, answer them. Zeena, you may feel that way to a degree as well, but you are still willing to engage in posting exchanges with me despite your extensive participation in postings all around the board.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Thank you for your understanding, and for not being offended by what may be perceived as my failure to "bat the ball back".

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Luke 7:23
And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

I've died to offense, we have Jesus to thank for that!

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
I have not responded directly and immediately to your questions because unless one understands the foundation for a belief, he will more than likely reject the belief out of a lack of understanding of how it came to be.

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Agreed. So, the foundation rests upon the teaching in those links and both a thorough understanding and revelation by the Spirit of God. Which is why He gave us His Word, so that we can come to know and be quickened to an understanding, receiving revelation from Him as we so walk, yes?

I am here, if our Father is Willing.
[Though, I really wish there was a 'sitting pretty' graemlin! ]

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
It's almost like two people from different countries who speak different languages, while trying to make sense of what each other has said.

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There is that universal language on which we may rely.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Often misunderstanding is the result, and one or both people will disconnect from the exchange.

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Like Paul and Barnabas in Acts 15:39-40

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
My approach to the study of the Scriptures is strictly and exclusively the Word of God ITSELF, and it excludes the traditions of the denominations of men.

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I've been born again for just a little over eight years. In that time I've gone through the Bible at least thirty times [mostly devotionals, but wholly the Word]. The first few times were in my own strength, until I was shown how futile it was to attempt to understand the Word of God in my own strength. Since then, I've relied on the Spirit of God to reveal it to me. I put down the Bible for nearly three years!!! In that time He bore me mighty Witness to the Truth of His Word in daily living and in abiding in Him.

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It also recognizes that it is the Spirit that teaches us what we are ordained to know, and all the explanation in the world will be of no avail if the student is only interested in teachings that affirm what he already believes.

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Yes, and not all Truth is for every man.

This is very wise teaching, and aptly timed, for I am to come under the tutialage of my teacher this very week!

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/twonatures.htm

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
May the Lord bless and keep you in His perfect care always.

apilgrim2

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Always and forever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKeRQ80vHgs

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Hello Zeena, Billy, (and those who participate and/or stop by to read). The spirit of your responses to my last posting made clear to me your own, as well as Billy's, desire to KNOW not only what you already believe, but what the Spirit would have you to know, even if it means considering what someone else has been shown without feeling compelled to rush in and "make right" the error of their receipt.

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My dear brother Tim has more abundant Grace than I've ever seen!

I met him upon inviting a discipleship group to our home in order to learn, but learn I did not-haha!
For it was REST from my works that I found!
To bear witness to one abiding in Christ just blew me away!

Isaiah 40:7
The grass withers and the flowers fall, because the breath of the LORD blows on them. Surely the people are grass.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
I feel compelled to reply to you both. May I do so by way of this one posting?

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Yes you may!

Ephesians 6:7
with good will doing service, as unto the Lord, and not unto men:

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Faith is a deeply personal matter, don't you agree?

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Yes, I agree that it is personal, though not something to be hid.

Matthew 5:14-17
Ye are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a lamp, and put it under the bushel, but on the stand; and it shineth unto all that are in the house. Even so let your light shine before men; that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
And we must tread ever-so-gently when we assess another's views.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
I believe we can all agree that we are here because we LOVE THE LORD and we would have the fellowship of others in THAT LOVE.

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Fellowship, YES! For we are edified in bearing witness to the Living God!

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
For this I give thanks and praise to HIM Who created all things and by Whom all things consist.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
I was released from the hospital yesterday evening after nearly a week of witnessing the my own discomfort and that of others.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Merciful LORD, the things I was given to see whilst I languished there!

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
OOPS! I guess I clicked on "add reply" instead of "preview post", and so the full text of the reply I had intended was cut short.

To continue . . .

We could go on and on, back and forth, identifying the differences in our grasp of what Scripture says, and pointing out the errors of one's grasp of what Scripture means over another's grasp by writing text and supplying Scriptural references that support our own. I suspect, however, that such an approach would serve neither ourselves nor the Word of God in an effective manner because my entire approach to the study of the Word is expressed in a principle known as "Right Division", and it looks at God's Word in a manner I previously described as "dispensational truth".

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
I feel so utterly blessed because I was given friends in whose company I came to faith, and by whom I was exposed to these principles, this way of approaching God's Word, very early in my Christian life, and so I did not have a great deal to "unlearn".

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I'm so happy for you!

I'm already 'unlearning' a lot thanks to the right teaching of The Holy Spirit.

Not that I could ['unlearn'] if I tried, but that I do not want to take the Grace of God in vain..

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
With this in mind I offer links to the following documents which will provide information about these terms I have used:

http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/2tim2-15.htm

http://www.bibleunderstanding.com/dispensational.htm

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Hrmm, a quick perusal says this is a serious subject in need of much attention! I will pray the Lord first to ask if this is His Will for me, and for Grace to walk, either way

Thank you for the links!!!

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
There is quite a bit of reading involved between these two articles, but they do provide a basic picture of the principles to which I have referred. I hope you will consider reading them.

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ALL THAT is just 'basic'?

How much more could there possibly be?!?

John 21:25
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Regardless of whether you do or not, I thank you for your Christian kindness and your willingness to discuss the Scriptures, and to receive my participation in the Love of God's Truth; the Word; the Lord Christ Jesus Who is the Head of that Body in which all those who were ordained before the overthrow of this world are members.

Thank you,

apilgrm2

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And thank you! Praise God!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by apilgrim2:
Where to begin.

I am compelled to be careful when I encounter a Christian believer with whom it is revealed I am at variance, whether in regard to understanding a single verse of Scripture or in the entire scope of the Bible. This is because (as I stated in one of the few other postings I have made on this board) each of us is given to gather from Scripture that which The Holy Spirit would have us to learn, and each of us is at our own particular stage of the process. We will perhaps never know this side of Glory just how much it is we have to learn, but I am thankful for that which the Spirit has revealed so far, not only to me, but to every believing Christian who is beloved of the LORD.[/qb]

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Me too, I never take rebuking error lightly, I nor do I rebuke a fellow believer, as a person, but error in thinking, feeling or chosing.

Ephesians 4:15
but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;

One of the reasons I decided to quote the teachings of a man other than myself is so that you would take no offense at me.

I see now that I should have spoken with you personally. I'm sorry!

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The scope of your response to what I now see as an ill-conceived and poorly executed posting on my part, and although I have received it in Christian love, resembles a sledgehammer being used to swat a fly.

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I gather you disagree with my assertion to Billy, which is evident not only by the content but by the sheer volume of your response posting.

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It seems to me, however, that the hammer, particularly with regard to Mr. Woodward's writings, is cast in a crucible of error.

I say this because that while the author you quote at length has supplied MANY verses of Scripture to support the points he has set out to validate, he fails utterly to discern the differences between the dispensations of Scripture as revealed when the admonishment of 2 Timothy 2:15, which is to rightly divide the Word of Truth, is applied.

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I am an Acts 28 dispensationalist who has wandered onto a posting board where the terms "rightly divided" themselves are used in a few postings, many participants are perhaps unfamiliar with the meaning of the Word rightly divided, or with the concept of dispensational truth.

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The gulf between our approaches to the Scriptures is wide indeed.

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I would ask but three questions before I exit the Christian BBS posting board,

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which are found in the context of the following verse:

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I refuse to seek guideance so that the Lord may answer this question according to the condition of my soul.

Praying now!

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Act 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;"

Compared to the first purpose for the Lord's appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus as it is stated in the above verse:

1) what are the things Paul "hast seen", and;

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2) what are those things "in the which I will appear unto thee", and;

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3) why does The Lord differentiate?

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This posting is made in the love of Christ Jesus our LORD; God bless and keep you always in His perfect care.

apilgrim2

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My flesh has the tendancy to a flippant attitude, which I do confess, to the Lord. I'm sorry if I've caused offense.

I do not come against you, as may seem indicative to my rantings. I am with you in Spirit, as you I

Be blessed apilgrim2, for I 2 am a pilgrim

In reverential fear, Zeena.

"However, for this reason I obtained MERCY, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life"

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Act 26:16 "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;"

Compared to the first purpose for the Lord's appearance to Paul on the road to Damascus as it is stated in the above verse:

1) what are the things Paul "hast seen", and;

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2) what are those things "in the which I will appear unto thee", and;

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3) why does The Lord differentiate?

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Billy wrote
If He has not began this work in your life, hit your knees and pray that He will, and don't stop praying until He has.

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APilgrim2 wrote
we are not transformed

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The Perfected and Progressive Aspects of the Believer's Sanctification
By John Woodward
August 12, 2005
A Biblical Outline

I. In one sense, the regenerated believer has already been sanctified (positionally and spiritually).

A. Believers are designated as holy (about 60 times in the NT).

1 Cor 3:17: "If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."

Col 3:12: "Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;"

1 Thess 5:27: "I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read to all the holy brethren."

Heb 3:1: "Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,"

1 Pet 2:5: "you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

1 Pet 2:9: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;"

Rom 1:7: "To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

Rom 16:2: "that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also."

Rom 16:15: "Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them."

B. Sanctification is based on being in Christ.

1 Cor 1:30: "But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption."

C. Sanctification is based on the completeness of the New Covenant.

Heb 10:10: "By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

D. This complete aspect is usually known as "positional sanctification." However, I believe this complete aspect of holiness as also based on the nature of the believer's spirit as made holy through union with Christ.

2 Cor 5:17:"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

1 Cor 6:17:"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him."

Eph 4:24:"... the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."

II. Sanctification is also a continuing process and responsibility. The believer's soul and bodily actions are to be conformed to the indwelling Christ (Rom 8:28,29).

A. Progressive sanctification is indicated by admonitions to holy behavior (via bodily actions).

Rom 6:13,19: "And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God ... I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness."

Eph 5:8: "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light."

1 Peter 1:15: "but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,"

2 Pet 3:11: "Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

2 Cor 6:17,18: "Therefore 'Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you.I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the LORD Almighty.'"

B. Progressive sanctification is indicated by admonitions to develop holy character (in the soul, i.e. mind, will, and emotions).

Eph 4:24: "and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."

Col 3:12: "Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;"

1 Tim 2:15: "Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control."

Titus 1:8: "but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled,"

Jas 1:2,3: "My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience."

Rom 5:3-5: "And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us."

C. Progressive sanctification is indicated by admonitions to devotion (in the soul).

Rom 12:1: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service."

Heb 12:14: "Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:"

2 Cor 5:15: "and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."

1 Pet 3:15: "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;"

D. Progressive sanctification is indicated by Christ's intercession for His people.

John 17:17: "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth."

E. Progressive sanctification is implied in the believer's holy calling.

1 Thess 4:7: "For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness."

2 Tim 1:9: "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,"

F. The progressive aspect of sanctification refers essentially to the believer's soul and body.

2 Cor 7:1: "Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. "[In the Greek there is no definite article before 'spirit'; this admonition refers to spiritual issues, not a progressive holiness in the regenerated human spirit].

2 Tim 2:20-22:"But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart."

2 Tim 3:16,17: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Heb 12:10: "For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness."

Heb 10:14: "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."

2 Cor 3:18: "But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord."

2 Peter 3:18: "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen."

G. This progress in holiness is experienced through cooperation with God's grace through the indwelling Christ.

John 15:4,5: "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Gal 2:20: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

Philippians 2:12,13: "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Titus 2:11,12: "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,"

III. Sanctification will be perfected when the redeemed are with the Lord after this earthly life.

A. The Holy Spirit, Who has sealed the believer, is the pledge of ultimate sanctification and glorification.

Eph 4:30: "And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption."

Rom 8:22,23: "For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."

B. The past, present, and future aspects of the believer's sanctification are interrelated.

1 John 3:1-3: "[past/present] Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. Beloved, now we are children of God;

[future] and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.

[present] And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."

1 Thess 5:23,24: "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For further reading on this topic, see Grace Notes: "Three D Sanctification,"The Believer's New Heart," and "Growing in Grace." Regarding trichotomy, see "Man as Spirit, Soul, and Body: Implications for Biblical Counseling" under this site's section: Theological Papers.

Copyright 2005 by John Woodward. Permission is granted to reproduce this outline for non-commercial use. GraceNotebook.com. Scripture quotations are from the New King James Version of the Bible [Thomas Nelson].

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged |