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Author
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Topic: Something Preacher said at Bible Study Lastnight !!
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Chuck_Slotter
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
[QB] [QUOTE] I'm not one to believe that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. I believe that while we are *positionally* righteous before God, we are still sinners in a *practical* sense.
Can you support this with scripture??
It is what the Christian Research Institute teaches (CRI PERSPECTIVE CP0609). It is compatible with what my church teaches. If you type "sinless perfection" into the box on www.google.com then you will find christian articles against sinless perfection.
"Sinless perfectionism is not biblical doctrine. 1 John 1:8 clearly states: 'If we claim to be without sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.' While willful sin ought not to characterize our life, sin will remain a part of human experience until we lay aside our physical body at death (Rom. 7). In fact, the wisest man who ever lived (Solomon) said: 'Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?'"-CRI Perspective
"'If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.' (1 John 1:10)
The verb sinned is in the perfect indicative active tense. This denotes the completeness of the action or the finished result, with the active voice indicating the speaker as having done the action. Thus, expanding the meaning of sinned . . ."- The Doctrine of Earthly Sinless Perfection Refuted by Matthew Heyns
All of man is sinful-his body, soul and spirit. Underline Romans 3:11-12 and Galatians 3:22 in your Bible.
"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."-Romans 3:10-12
"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe."-Galatians 3:22
Underline Psalm 51:5 in your Bible:
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and sin did my mother conceive me."-Psalm 51:5
The sinful nature is like poison:
"The wicked are estranged from the wong: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear."-Psalm 58:3-4
"And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?"-I Corinthians 8:11
"But if thy brrother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of:"-Romans 14:15-16
Christ was willing to die for and save my weak brothers.
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
I'm not one to believe that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. I believe that while we are *positionally* righteous before God, we are still sinners in a *practical* sense.
Can you support this with scripture??
quote:
If we don't teach grace then sinners will believe that God is against them. If we don't acccept easy believism then sinners will believe that God is against them. I think accepting a free gift of God's salvation is easy but God's work in this salvation is not easy.
I think sinners should think that God is against them, but he who is also merciful has provided a way that they can become not sinners but Children of the Almighty God!
quote:
What kind of hope does the messed up person have if we just teach them that they can't make it? Paul said that he was the chief of sinners. What kind of hope does the woman taken in adultery have? What kind of hope did King David have when he had Uriah killed after he comitted fornication and adultery with Bathsheba?
NONE! That is the point! As sinners we have to come to realize that we have no hope; we are vile wretched creatures destined for eternal damnation and we cannot save ourselves thus we need a savior!
quote:
The Bible says that fornicators and adulterers don't inherit the kingdom of God yet King David is a man after God's own heart and found in the lineage of the Messiah. The only way they can enter into the Kingdom of God is through forgiveness and grace.
The only way to enter the Kingdom is by Grace through Fatih. This has always been the case. Yes, David a sinner was given grace and his faith was imputed as righteousness!
Likewise we are justified while we are still sinners and we are born again through faith in Christ who righteousness is imputed to us. But the key word here is BORN AGAIN. You must first die to be born again. This is to kill your own will and take up HIS will; this is to surrender to HIS Lordship; to realize that you are without hope and need hope and HOPE IS CHRIST.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Chuck_Slotter
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
You wont get any argument from me that we work because we are saved and not so that we can be; but I have trouble with the concept of easy believeism that too many in the church have.
We are must believe IN the power of the blood and its sufficiencey...a free gift of God; which means we must believe in Christ. But, the belief that is unto salvation... a faith that produces justification and ultimately sanctification is a FAITH not just IN Christ, but OF Christ. And that is a faith that knows him as LORD and MASTER.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
DID you Catch that.. these are powerful words... by the faith OF Christ we have believed IN Christ!
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
There is no measure of time that this needs be... we see that in the picture of the theif on the cross that was in apradies with Jesus that very day! So yes, I may die having only known him one minute as LORD and you may die having known him your whole life as Lord and we both obtain the same prize. But we should be careful not to think that if God allows us a lifetime here of knowing him that that lifetime is expected to be one under HIS LORDship.
The Gospel is simple indeed! But it is not cheap; it costs everything!
It cost Jesus his life; it costs us ours in the lying down of our flesh daily which is our REASONABLE SERVICE.
So that salvation is not Belief + Lordship, NO No No.
But it is Belief in HIS LORDSHIP. If you truly believe IN his Lordship... then you must also believe in your OWN submission to it, because to believe in HIS Lorship is to know that HE IS LORD of ALL!
It is only when we know this that we climb off the throne and put him on it in our hearts; and this is the heart of the just... the heart that knows that we cannot save ourselves, we are not LORD... BUT HE IS!
You cannot say Jesus is my savior but I am Lord of my own Life; because the belief that believes Jesus could be your savior is also a belief that he can be because HE IS... LORD.
I don't want to argue with you either, Helpforhomeschoolers. What I do know is that if someone believes and God pitches His tent in that person's heart, then the Holy Spirit takes over whether that person is the chiefest of sinners or the most vilest of persons. The magnitude of that work may be based on the availability of that person but if God is allowed to work and if God resides in that person then it doesn't matter to me the magnitude of what God is doing because I know He (God) is the one that is preparing the soil. Paul didn't want to take John Marc because he deserted Paul or something but Paul later found John Marc useful.
I'm not one to believe that we can reach sinless perfection in this life. I believe that while we are *positionally* righteous before God, we are still sinners in a *practical* sense.
If we don't teach grace then sinners will believe that God is against them. If we don't acccept easy believism then sinners will believe that God is against them. I think accepting a free gift of God's salvation is easy but God's work in this salvation is not easy.
What kind of hope does the messed up person have if we just teach them that they can't make it? Paul said that he was the chief of sinners. What kind of hope does the woman taken in adultery have? What kind of hope did King David have when he had Uriah killed after he comitted fornication and adultery with Bathsheba?
The Bible says that fornicators and adulterers don't inherit the kingdom of God yet King David is a man after God's own heart and found in the lineage of the Messiah. The only way they can enter into the Kingdom of God is through forgiveness and grace.
I know people who fought in World War Two and they killed other people in self defense but won't forgive themselves to accept God's forgiveness. They won't believe that God will forgive them for what they did in their service for their country.
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Just Passing Through
Advanced Member
Member # 1864
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posted
First---Thanks to all of you----ok heres how it was for me---I read a book--that got me to thinking--about Demons and hell--then book started talking about how in the end times satan my use aliens/demons to explain the Rapture---well I didnt know what Rapture was---this started me on a quest--which led first to God then finaly to Jesus--it was afte I read my heart out that I learned about Heaven and Hell---I knew I didnt want hell---so started reading Bible and other books--I slowly came to believe---Jesus was the only way----I didnt know what the gaspel even was--but after I learned---I knew I needed Jesus---I gave him my life---it was like a fog was lifted from my mind--I could see things I neve saw before---now I can say Jesus is my Lord and Savior----Oh Happy Days---I am my own best wittness that HOLY SPIRIT is living in me---cause I know what I used to be like---and can see the new me--I am saved and I am going to heaven------THANK YOU MY LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST---------now my question is-----am I right in thinking this ??????
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Gail
Posts: 145 | From: Okee. Fl | Registered: Jul 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
You wont get any argument from me that we work because we are saved and not so that we can be; but I have trouble with the concept of easy believeism that too many in the church have.
We are must believe IN the power of the blood and its sufficiencey...a free gift of God; which means we must believe in Christ. But, the belief that is unto salvation... a faith that produces justification and ultimately sanctification is a FAITH not just IN Christ, but OF Christ. And that is a faith that knows him as LORD and MASTER.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
DID you Catch that.. these are powerful words... by the faith OF Christ we have believed IN Christ!
Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
There is no measure of time that this needs be... we see that in the picture of the theif on the cross that was in apradies with Jesus that very day! So yes, I may die having only known him one minute as LORD and you may die having known him your whole life as Lord and we both obtain the same prize. But we should be careful not to think that if God allows us a lifetime here of knowing him that that lifetime is expected to be one under HIS LORDship.
The Gospel is simple indeed! But it is not cheap; it costs everything!
It cost Jesus his life; it costs us ours in the lying down of our flesh daily which is our REASONABLE SERVICE.
So that salvation is not Belief + Lordship, NO No No.
But it is Belief in HIS LORDSHIP. If you truly believe IN his Lordship... then you must also believe in your OWN submission to it, because to believe in HIS Lorship is to know that HE IS LORD of ALL!
It is only when we know this that we climb off the throne and put him on it in our hearts; and this is the heart of the just... the heart that knows that we cannot save ourselves, we are not LORD... BUT HE IS!
You cannot say Jesus is my savior but I am Lord of my own Life; because the belief that believes Jesus could be your savior is also a belief that he can be because HE IS... LORD.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Chuck_Slotter
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Just Passing Through:
thank you Chuck---But I dont understand what you said----sorry
If you take a simple verse or a clear verse like John 3:16 or John 5:24 without reading anything into it, it says you are saved by believing in Jesus Christ.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."-John 3:16
John 3:16 says that "whosoever" believes in Him (Jesus) will have everlasting life. If this verse was conditional then it didn't state the conditions on making Jesus Lord. It didn't state the conditions that you have to work your way into salvation.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."-John 5:24
The verse doesn't say,"might have" or "could have". If you had to be saved by making Jesus Lord then it would say,"might have" but it doesn't.
"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."-Romans 11:6
If you have works as the basis of your salvation then you don't have God's grace as the basis of your salvation. Lordship is a legal term. Having Lordship as a result of your salvation is ok but as the basis of your salvation is a problem.
Our salvation is not based on our works because the Bible says,"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."-Ephesians 2:8-9
Grace is unmerited favor. Faith is not something we can see with our eyes or feel. God says that your salvation is not of yourself or your own making because it is the gift from God. It says that your salvation is not of works.
If I feel that I have to be justified by works then I'm fallen from Grace because the Bible says,"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."-Galatians 5:4
If you use Lordship as the basis of your salvation then Lordship is a legal term and you are fallen from grace. If you use Lordship as the result of your salvation then your salvation is not of works and grace is still grace.
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Miguel
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Member # 47
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck_Slotter:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Chuck are you saying that Lordship is not required?
What do you think it is exactly that one must confess and believe in order to be saved?
What I am saying is that the things people think are required are really the result of salvation. If you make a requirement then it is no longer grace. It is no longer a free gift of God. You would have to work for this free gift and works don't save.
If we could work our way to heaven then Jesus died for nothing and His words wouldn't tell us that all have fallen short in spite of our working. Working towards Jesus being Lord doesn't make our salvation any shorter. We're still short with God.
What the parable tells me is that those who worked for salvation got ripped off because salvation is about God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
You make Jesus Lord as a result of salvation. Not the basis of your salvation. If you don't have it as a result then you aren't justified before men.
That is a good point to think about.
May the Lord bless the hearts of you all.. ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif)
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Chuck_Slotter
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Chuck are you saying that Lordship is not required?
What do you think it is exactly that one must confess and believe in order to be saved?
What I am saying is that the things people think are required are really the result of salvation. If you make a requirement then it is no longer grace. It is no longer a free gift of God. You would have to work for this free gift and works don't save.
If we could work our way to heaven then Jesus died for nothing and His words wouldn't tell us that all have fallen short in spite of our working. Working towards Jesus being Lord doesn't make our salvation any shorter. We're still short with God.
What the parable tells me is that those who worked for salvation got ripped off because salvation is about God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
You make Jesus Lord as a result of salvation. Not the basis of your salvation. If you don't have it as a result then you aren't justified before men.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Chuck are you saying that Lordship is not required?
What do you think it is exactly that one must confess and believe in order to be saved?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Just Passing Through
Advanced Member
Member # 1864
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posted
thank you Chuck---But I dont understand what you said----sorry
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Gail
Posts: 145 | From: Okee. Fl | Registered: Jul 2003
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Chuck_Slotter
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Just Passing Through:
We were talking about Romans 8:1-by the great verse---He said I am going to say something that might make us mad or get up and leave the church----I can tell you we were very very quiet----he said he didnt think you were truely saved unless--! Jesus was your ( LORD ) 2 then he was your saviour--------he just sat----I thought Saviour part----Not to sure what he meant about the Lord part there stareing at us---then said a prayer and dismissed us----OK I get the Saviour part not to sure what he meant about the LORD part---I thought I did dut now am not sure---anybody got any ideas what he means ??? THANKS
It sounds like the old Lordship / Salvation debate that John MacArthur believes in.
Romans 8:1 says,"There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus..."
The expression,"who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit is not in the original"-Liberty Bible Commentary
"There should be an exclamation point after the expression 'therefore now no condemantion to them which are in Christ Jesus!'"-Liberty Bible Commentary
What should really frustrate your friends is the parable in Matthew 20:1-16 because it really contrasts merit and grace. Those who get in at the last hour make those who work more angry because those who believe in Lordship salvation think they deserve more of eternal life. Jesus says that the reward is about His grace and it doesn't really matter if they work more.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
Very well put Gary,
The first step to Calvary (that place every person desiring eternal life must come to receive the cleansing Power of the Blood ), invovles the surrender of our will to the will of the FATHER.
Just Passing Through, I like your name,
This world is not my home either, I am only passing through.
Wonderful post question.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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Just Passing Through
Advanced Member
Member # 1864
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posted
After reading that jumbled up post I dont know how you guys figured out what I was saying--------But you did----I understand nowThanks for clearing this up for me---
this is what I believed---he just threw me---Thanks again
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Gail
Posts: 145 | From: Okee. Fl | Registered: Jul 2003
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wonderful_sky
Advanced Member
Member # 1808
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posted
Hi Gail! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I have to agree with Gary. I believe the point that your pastor was making last night was one of where the Lord is in your life. Is He in control? That sort of thing.
Gary, thanks! I read this earlier and thought the same thing, but could not find the words to make it sound right. Wonderful job!! ![[hyper]](graemlins/hyper.gif)
In His continual service,
Sky ![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
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He who kneels down to God, can stand up to anything ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Posts: 220 | From: Missouri | Registered: Jul 2003
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Gary
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Member # 523
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posted
Gail,
I'm not absolutely positive I know what you're asking here, but I'll take a stab at it.
You understand what it means that Jesus is your savior, right? Do you understand what it means that Jesus is your Lord?
If Jesus is my Lord, that means He is my king, my ruler, the one to whom I owe complete obedience. That means He's the Boss, He's Number One, there's nobody more important in my life, not even my wife and kids, not even ME! I have to submit totally to His authority over my life.
My understanding, Gail, is that one must take Jesus as BOTH Lord and Savior. He won't take second place. You can't have Him as savior and still be lord of your own life. Salvation involves giving all of yourself to Christ, that's ALL of yourself, in exchange for ALL of Him. It's an all-or-nothing proposition.
In Christ,
Gary
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"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23 NASB
Posts: 436 | From: Mankato, Minnesota | Registered: Oct 2002
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Just Passing Through
Advanced Member
Member # 1864
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posted
We were talking about Romans 8:1-by the great verse---He said I am going to say something that might make us mad or get up and leave the church----I can tell you we were very very quiet----he said he didnt think you were truely saved unless--! Jesus was your ( LORD ) 2 then he was your saviour--------he just sat----I thought Saviour part----Not to sure what he meant about the Lord part there stareing at us---then said a prayer and dismissed us----OK I get the Saviour part not to sure what he meant about the LORD part---I thought I did dut now am not sure---anybody got any ideas what he means ??? THANKS
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Gail
Posts: 145 | From: Okee. Fl | Registered: Jul 2003
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