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Author
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Topic: War or no war?
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
http://www.sundayherald.com/32893
Iraq gives up its grim secrets
Abandoned warehouse is a tomb for hundreds of tortured and executed Iraqis
From Paul Harris in Al Zubayr, Southern Iraq
THE coffins are laid out in neat rows in an abandoned warehouse. In each lies a crumpled bag of bones, old and dusty but still recognisably human. Out of the open end of one sack, a skull can be seen buried in the fragments of skeleton.
Its eye sockets are empty. Its teeth are smashed. Two ribs point out like accusing fingers.
Something terrible happened here. Something murderous. Something evil.
The proof lies in a cargo container nearby. Its metal door hangs open and inside are pages and pages of files. Each sheaf of notes contains a picture of a man or woman. Each and every one has been shot in the head. Their wounds are mangled and gaping. Many of them barely look human any more as the anonymous photographer chronicled their dead faces. It is a horror almost beyond words.........
Inside the hangar, the air is still and thick with dust. It hangs close around the clothes and almost makes one retch to think what is being breathed into the lungs of those who have ventured inside. It is a relief to leave such a charnel house. Outside, the sun is shining over southern Iraq. There is a stiff breeze that blows some of the bone dust away. But inside the horrors remain, testimony to the crimes of a regime that is itself now being killed.
Yet these are not isolated horrors. Last night allegations of the torture and murder of dozens of children by Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party also came to light, with bodies discovered hanging from street lighting.
The killings were carried out after the party headquarters in Basra was bombed last week, said some Iraqi women, one of whom's niece had been killed. Families believed to have been aiding coalition forces were targeted.
Interpreter Vanessa Lough, formerly attached to the UN and based in Basra said: 'In one street alone they said three children could be seen hanging from the lamp posts, and around the corner one child lay burnt on the ground.
'The women said some of the children's bodies are now being held in the city's hospital mortuary.'
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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ProphecyEye
Advanced Member
Member # 199
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posted
quote:
Americans ARE dying. I am a member of the United States Air Force.
My exact words were that they were not dieing by the thousands (in reference to the fact that US civilians have never been attacked in large numbers by Iraq). So far in this conflict, about 40 lives had been lost (last time I checked anyways). Furthermore these lives would not have been lost if this war were not waged.
quote:
It offends me as a member of the military and as a citizen of the United States of America that you would accuse Americans of being selfish in this war.
I made no accusation that America was being selfish in any way, simply that the means to a solution of the problem of dealing with Saddam is going to be very costly in lives (esp Iraq lives).
quote:
I believe the only people who have been selfish are those who have protested the war. Their concerns: Too much money will be spent on the war, and too many American lives will be lost.
They protest also because of the large number of Iraq lives that will be lost, the fact that this war was not sanctioned by the UN therefore undermining the authority and validity of the organization, and the fact that this is a pre-emptive war which many view as unethical.
And when did it become selfish to want to preserve American lives? When did it become our *duty* to send other men to die?
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To suggest that the sanctions are the fault of the United States is also offensive to me. Those sanctions are the fault of one man: Saddam Hussein. He is an evil, sick man.
I mentioned this as the government wants the US to be portrayed as saviors of the Iraq people but I don't see how this is possible after we have been responsible for just as many deaths as Saddam. It also doesn't make sense to me that supposedly Saddam is going to acquire materials for nuclear weapons when he can't even get chlorine for water treatment facilities.
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I refuse to allow anyone to take all of the blame from Saddam and place it on anyone or anything but him. That is akin to suggesting that the blame for what happened to the Jews during WWII is not completely that of Hitler. It was.
Let's not make excuses for people like Saddam Hussein, Adolf Hitler, and Josef Stalin. This is to make an excuse for SIN and EVIL.
You will be hard pressed to find any anti-war protesters who support Saddam and say that this isn't his fault but an atrocity by Saddam doesn't justify and atrocity by the US even if it is to take out the cause of the first atrocity and prevent any further ones from happening. Most anti-war protesters simply want the administration and the people of the US to not be so eager to rush into an armed conflict without exhausting other options first... even if one of those options is to stand by, keep and eye on Saddam and wait for his imminent death.
Posts: 67 | Registered: Jul 2002
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blessed2bcatholic
New Member
Member # 1312
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posted
[/QUOTE]Don’t get me wrong, something needs to be done about Saddam. People need to realize though that the US has caused just as much death and suffering if not more so than Saddam ever has. Research the amount of deaths caused by trade sanctions imposed upon Iraq by the US after the first gulf war and research what the estimates where for civilian causalities for this war. Looking at what the death/causality toll was from the last war is probably a good estimation as well. I will refrain from posting any statistics here as I will most likely just be written off as some liberal bozo that is pulling numbers out of the air so I encourage you to research yourself from credible sources.
It’s the Christian thing to do to take out Saddam by any means necessary as long as it isn’t Americans dieing by the thousands right? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Americans ARE dying. I am a member of the United States Air Force. It offends me as a member of the military and as a citizen of the United States of America that you would accuse Americans of being selfish in this war. I believe the only people who have been selfish are those who have protested the war. Their concerns: Too much money will be spent on the war, and too many American lives will be lost.
To suggest that the sanctions are the fault of the United States is also offensive to me. Those sanctions are the fault of one man: Sadaam Hussein. He is an evil, sick man.
I refuse to allow anyone to take all of the blame from Sadaam and place it on anyone or anything but him. That is akin to suggesting that the blame for what happened to the Jews during WWII is not completely that of Hitler. It was.
Let's not make excuses for people like Sadaam Husein, Adolk Hitler, and Josef Stalin. This is to make an excuse for SIN and EVIL.
In Jesus, Mary and Joseph,
Catherine ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
P.S.--I hope I didn't sound harsh to you, I didn't mean it in a harsh way...but this is an emotional topic for me, as I know many people in Iraq as we speak (or type?)...
Posts: 3 | From: East Lansing, MI | Registered: Apr 2003
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Disciple4Him
Advanced Member
Member # 1300
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posted
I generally don't respond to topics like this on boards. My basic opinion and why? I support it, I support our Prez, our troops, our gov't, and their causes. I may not agree with it all, but generally I feel we have a good Christian minded Prez and what he decides is bets for the security and prosperity or future of our country, I am for. I do not feel I need to knwo the gov'ts every whereabouts or move, they know what they are doing and why. The world will be safer with tyrants like Hussein overthrown and good Christian values reinstituted in the cradle of the world's civilization.
Posts: 30 | From: Westerville, OH | Registered: Apr 2003
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ProphecyEye
Advanced Member
Member # 199
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gary:
To those who oppose this war, consider what an UNCHRISTIAN thing it is to sit by idly while an evil tyrant tortures and murders his own people, causing them to live in fear every day and every night, wondering if Saddam's men are going to pull you or some member of your family out of bed in the middle of the night and haul you or them off to a torture chamber, and you wonder if you'll ever see them again.
And the disembowelment of civilian men, women, and children *is* the CHRSITIAN thing to do…
To quote an article from the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/03/international/worldspecial/03CIVI.html):
quote:
Dr. Saad al-Fallouji, the hospital's chief surgeon, said that on Tuesday alone, the hospital received 33 victims dead on arrival and 180 others who were wounded by American fire. "Most of them — no, all of them — were civilians," he said. "All of them were from Nadir village, women and children and men of all ages, mostly they had very serious injuries to their abdomens, to their intestines, to their chests and their heads. Many of the bodies were completely torn apart."
Western reporters asked him how he felt about the carnage. "I feel very angry about this," he replied. "Don't you feel angry too?"
Reporters had no difficulty confirming that there had been scores of casualties — the dead evident in the procession of coffins, and in the torn bodies that crowded the shelves of the large refrigerator in the hospital's front garden, the wounded filling every ward, many eager to recount how they had come under American fire. Information Ministry officials translated the accounts.
Don’t get me wrong, something needs to be done about Saddam. People need to realize though that the US has caused just as much death and suffering if not more so than Saddam ever has. Research the amount of deaths caused by trade sanctions imposed upon Iraq by the US after the first gulf war and research what the estimates where for civilian causalities for this war. Looking at what the death/causality toll was from the last war is probably a good estimation as well. I will refrain from posting any statistics here as I will most likely just be written off as some liberal bozo that is pulling numbers out of the air so I encourage you to research yourself from credible sources.
It’s the Christian thing to do to take out Saddam by any means necessary as long as it isn’t Americans dieing by the thousands right?
Posts: 67 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Gary
Advanced Member
Member # 523
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posted
Welcome, GLG!
I agree, Pres. Bush is a Christian. I understand he spends time every morning in Oswald Chambers devotional, "My Utmost for His Highest."
Did you know, in 2002 "Good News Magazine" a magazine for United Methodist renewal, named George W. Bush U.M. Layman of the Year?
..........
quote:
…If we do not work on him, he will most definitely will work on us.
Nice post, MAC, my brother
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If we don't get rid of Saddam and his WMDs, he will surely use them on somebody, even his own people, as he has done numerous times before.
To those who oppose this war, consider what an UNCHRISTIAN thing it is to sit by idly while an evil tyrant tortures and murders his own people, causing them to live in fear every day and every night, wondering if Saddam's men are going to pull you or some member of your family out of bed in the middle of the night and haul you or them off to a torture chamber, and you wonder if you'll ever see them again. It is incumbent upon us as the most powerful and (supposedly) Christian nation in the world to do whatever we can do to help the oppressed people of the world.
America is not perfect. America has backslidden from where we were only a few decades back. But we are still the brightest hope for the world from among all other nations. We have been incredibly blessed by God, and I for one am proud to say we have Americans out there in Iraq and other places trying not to oppress people, as we are being accused of, but trying to help people.
I pray for God to bless America, and I also pray that America will repent and turn once again to God.
In Christ,
Gary
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"For the wages of sin is death,
but the free gift of God is eternal life
in Christ Jesus our Lord."
Romans 6:23 NASB
Posts: 436 | From: Mankato, Minnesota | Registered: Oct 2002
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Girl Loving God
New Member
Member # 1294
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posted
Well I do know for a fact that President Bush is a Christian & has a strong faith in God. I also konw that he has quiet time with God every morning as well; so I'm sure that he has asked for council from God and that God has told him that this war is what the world needs to be at peace. Saddam is an evil person and shouldn't head a havic causing Rasim in Iraq....it's dangerious for us all.
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~Confide in Him and he will listen~
Posts: 5 | From: Oklahoma U.S.A | Registered: Apr 2003
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angelhearts
Community Member
Member # 1234
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posted
i heard on the news today that a POW from Iraq said that the Iraq people are more afraid of Saddan then of the soilders and their military. Saddan has (had) complete control of his people. Brainwashed them to beleive we are cruel and mean, but did you see the joy and jumping in the streets of some who realize the truth about Saddan. I hate war and killing I cry when I hear we lost a soilder. I even felt sad when they reported an iraq soilder got killed. but honestly that man is (was) out of control. Posters and statures of himself all over like he was god. I don't think we had a choice. oh by the way I am new to this board too and I don't mean to jump in here with a sermon or speak out of line. I am really kinda shy though and I feel so strongly on this issue figured it be a good one to jump right into! We need to pray without ceasing for the men and women in Iraq.
Posts: 7 | From: Southeast Florida | Registered: Mar 2003
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
One of the things we must do is stick to facts. The anti-war group, manufactures facts to justify their ideology.
Diplomacy was the first thing that occured. But all countries know that Saddam,lies to create time to persue his schemes. All know his penchant for dominance. what he did to his own people. the threat he poses to surrounding countries. Diplomacy did not work.
In the last conflict, there were casualties, but the number suggested here is way way out of perportion. The sad part is Bush senior should have finoished the job, and not leave it up to Bush junior. But that is the way it is, and now lets end it quickly and completely.
God Bless
Joel
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Daddy's*Girl
Community Member
Member # 1025
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posted
as a reminder, many people in the USA have lost loved ones for our freedom. they are hero's. freedom comes with a price.
Posts: 12 | From: Texas | Registered: Feb 2003
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
Amen! Good post! hopeful4future,,Welcome to the board, its good to have you here ![[Kiss]](graemlins/Kiss.gif)
Please make yourself at home, and join in anywhere ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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hopeful4future
Community Member
Member # 1229
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posted
I am new to this board, so please forgive me if I speak out of turn. I think most people would agree that war is a horrible thing. In this case however, Saddam has had 12 years..think about that...12 long years to declare whatever weapons he has and register them with the U.N. He has chosen to ignore the resolutions he once agreed to. He cares nothing for his own people. I saw a news report the other night. His own people were lying dead in the streets from HIS chemical weapons. War as I see it, is the only option now. Whether you believe that 9-11 is directly related to him or not, how long do you think it will be before he uses the resources he has against the U.S., not to mention anyone else he so desires.
As far as the Iraqi people getting more freedoms, were not just talking about the freedom to vote here. We're talking about being able to walk outside their homes and not be killed. I believe these people want their leader replaced. I do believe they would wish it could happen peacefully, but as with any dictator, that doesn't happen. I would rather risk the possibility of getting killed in a war that was used to rid my country of such a dictator, than to risk living a long life under such a regime.
God Bless.
Posts: 8 | From: Michigan | Registered: Mar 2003
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ProphecyEye
Advanced Member
Member # 199
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by MAC:
...The problem is that Saddam have been many years without supervision and have been able to store vast amount of weapons underground. A dictator like him will not throw away years of research without some kind of payment, and in order for him to comply he most totally give up and that will never happen. He will become a martyr for Allah first!
…If we do not work on him, he will most definitely will work on us. [/QB]
He may have been able to store large amounts of weapons underground... he might have not. I think there is no factual evidence that suggests that "...he will most definitely work on us". If he were to use his weapons of mass destruction on US citizens, the US would either wipe him off the face of the planet or at least force him into hiding and exile. He may be a bit crazy but he isn't that stupid. If he used his weapons to attack a neighboring country, the country would probably gladly except our help and it would defiantly be a clear cut just war.
On the other hand, if we do attack then he defiantly will use his weapons against US troops. He might even use his weapons against the Kurds and Shiites living in Iraq just for kicks. Further more quoted from CNN: "...the official said that there are reports that Iraqi President Saddam Hussein plans to use chemical weapons in the south and blame it on U.S. forces."
You are right, he is probably not going to give up his "illegal" weapons if he does have any stockpiled, but just ask a animal backed into a corner will lash out no matter the consequences, you are going to see him backed into a corner by the US and he is going to end up using those weapons and become a martyr in the process.
Posts: 67 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
[QUOTE] Originally posted by ProphecyEye:
[QB]
You could argue that Iraq might support terrorists that do directly attack America. Even if this is true, there have been far more links to Iran supporting terrorists than Iraq. Why is no one talking about bombing them instead?
...It is a matter of time before there turn comes, watch and see and it will be all around in the news.
Overall I think people are overly eager to sacrifice innocent non-American lives simply because they are not Americans and are "over there" in Iraq. I'm not saying war isn't an option, I just wish people would think more about the implications of going to war as all I see time and time again is people worrying about potential loss of American life without taking into consideration of the definite loss of Iraq life.
...The problem is that Saddam have been many years without supervision and have been able to store vast amount of weapons underground. A dictator like him will not throw away years of research without some kind of payment, and in order for him to comply he most totally give up and that will never happen. He will become a martyr for Allah first!
…If we do not work on him, he will most definitely will work on us.
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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ProphecyEye
Advanced Member
Member # 199
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posted
The problem with going to war with Iraq to liberate the people is that you will end up killing many of them. I believe in the last war with Iraq, 50,000 civilians and 150,000 Iraq soldiers were killed.
Even if their government is cruel and harsh to many, a lot live out lives much in the same way Americans might. From what I can gather, these people do not want to be bombed even if it means freedom. Can you honestly say you would willingly sacrifice a family member, child, or loved one for the sake of a few more freedoms?
As for the security of the US, when was the last time you or anyone you know actually felt threatened by Iraq? Where was all the war rallying a few years ago when Iraq was still sitting there with their supposed weapons of mass destruction? Granted, Sadam is a bad dude and probably has no scruples with killing random Americans if it suits his purposes but what does he have to gain? I think most of the bad things that he has done can be traced back to a grab for power in the middle east. Yes this could be a stepping stone for "world domination" but could you honestly see this happening if we continued with weapons inspections?
You could argue that Iraq may support terrorists that do directly attack America. Even if this is true, there have been far more links to Iran supporting terrorists than Iraq. Why is no one talking about bombing them instead?
Overall I think people are overly eager to sacrifice innocent non-American lives simply because they are not Americans and are "over there" in Iraq. I'm not saying war isn't an option, I just wish people would think more about the implications of going to war as all I see time and time again is people worrying about potential loss of American life without taking into consideration of the definite loss of Iraq life.
Posts: 67 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Kindgo
Advanced Member
Member # 2
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posted
web page
![[Big Eyes]](graemlins/darthmavis.gif)
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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njclary
unregistered
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posted
Fighting is wrong, War is wrong.
BUT: sometimes fighting and war are necessary.Throughout history, we can see where war became a cleansing force. But mankind has a short memory. And the chief aim of man, it seems is to put his fellow man under his control. As mankind of this earth, except for those who have come to know the Savior, strive to enslave themselves to each other. Wars will be inevitable.
Iraq, itself is not to blame, they are an enslavefd people, but Saddam is a very cruel and devious person who has made it his secondary mission in life to be the greatest liar in history. His first mission is to use absolute control over his people and to **** their life blood out of them. and then He wants to control the entire middle east and eliminate Israel.
SO to war we go.
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Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47
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posted
Even do the word of God tells us "blessed are the peace maker" I have come to the agreement of having a new leader in Iraq. In addition, the protection of our self is first, he most be removed! ![[hmm]](graemlins/icon14.gif)
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Romans 9:11-24
Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!
Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002
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Cameron
Advanced Member
Member # 1090
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posted
Hey. I know there is a lot of agument about whether there should be a war against Iraq. Do you think there should, and why or why not?
I think there should, because the Iraqi people deserve to live in a country with the freedoms that we take for granted.
P.S. Everyone, please respect people's opinions, even if you don't agree with them. I don't want to be the cause of a major argument.
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Why do we care what people think of us when we know what God thinks of us?
Posts: 332 | From: Queensland, Australia | Registered: Feb 2003
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