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» Christian Message Boards   » Miscellaneous   » General Discussion   » DEC 25

   
Author Topic: DEC 25
Truth Seeker
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And in the Churches!!!

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truthseeker

Posts: 28 | From: usa | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Miguel
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Yeah you might be right; I wonder how many other blasphemies we have in our own homes!

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Truth Seeker
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It's so refreshing to see some Christians that actually believe the Word of God and not the watered down gospel they hear at church every week by Pastors like Bucher. If it were not important God would not of told us in Jer 10 about the tree. What has Dec 25, tree or winter have to do with the birth of Christ. Jesus told us what to do in remembrance of him until He returns. Communion.
It is a custom to bring a present with you when you visit a King, no matter when. The Bible does not say there were 3 wise men, and Jesus was a young child not a baby in a manger when they came. Pope Julius in 349 AD was the one who said Jesus was born on Dec 25th. So that makes that a Catholic Holiday and I'm not catholic, and I would rather obey God than man made traditions.

When the Pilgrims arrived in Plymouth, Massachusetts, in 1620 they also brought with them a distrust of Christmas. A 1659 Massachusetts law fined people for celebrating on December 25. But again, the day was so popular that the law was repealed in 1681, although strong religious opposition lasted into the next century.
Lutherans, Dutch Reformed, Catholic, and Anglican churches were most responsible for establishing Christmas traditions in the United States. Baptists, Presbyterians, Quakers, and Puritans voiced opposition to the day because of the pagan origins of most of the Christmas festivities.

Baptist preacher Charles H. Spurgeon opened a sermon on 24 December 1871 with the following words:
“We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas: first, because we do not believe in the mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be said or sung in Latin or in English; and, secondly, because we find no scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Saviour; and, consequently, its observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority.”

And here is one last thought, you know what the Bible says about false prophets and what to do with them. So they are lying about God and what God said.
So what about someone saying Jesus was born on Dec 25th and he wasn't. Are they lying on God and isn't that blashemy?

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truthseeker

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Salti
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I think you said it well Robby.
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Miguel
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A very possitive view [spiny]

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robby
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I think it was in the middle ages when the "paradise tree" was invented. A fir tree which symbolized the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and decorated with figurines of Adam and Eve and the serpent, and apples. Later, the Tree of Knowledge was changed into the Tree of Life when communion wafers for the forgiveness of sins were added, and paper roses symbolizing the Virgin Mary, along figurines of the nativity, candy, pastry, candles, and a star.

Now, the Bible has no instruction about taking a tree into the home, decorating it, and putting gifts underneath. Indeed, God does not want us to engross ourselves in idolatry. So the tree itself or whatever we make of the tree should not be an object of worship.

For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. (Jeremiah 10:3-4)

However, realize that God himself adorns his sactuary with evergreen trees.

The glory of Lebanon will come to you, the pine, the fir, and the cypress together, to adorn the place of my sanctuary; and I will glorify the place of my feet. (Isaiah 60:17)

This passage is found in a chapter about the return of Christ, of God's promises fulfilled, and the eternal glory of Jerusalem. I think it's a chapter that is vitally linked with the birth of Jesus, for angels spoke, "Glory to God in the Highest, and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests." And it's the reason why we sing, "Joy to the World."

John Wesley says of the Isaiah 60:13 passage: The glory - The box, the fir, the pine, and the cedar, on account whereof Lebanon was so famous; kings and great ones, the glory of the world, and also persons of a lower rank, shall be the materials, and members of Christ's church. To beautify - This is the reason and end why the glory of Lebanon is to be brought hither; by these trees understand the beauty, and nobility of the church. Sanctuary - The temple wherein was the sanctuary. The place of my feet - The ark, so called, because, supposing God after the manner of men, to sit between the wings of the cherubim, his feet would rest upon the ark. All this is made good in the gospel - church.

So perhaps we should consider the Christmas tree (decorated with Biblically symbolic ornaments like in the middle ages) in light of Isaiah 60. That the tree is to beautify one's home as evidence that your home is also God's sanctuary. That it is to glorify Christ and the life we have in Him, so He glorifies your home as a place for His feet to rest. And that by giving to others, so you are giving glory to Jesus by your gifts (as the shepherd and wise men presented gifts to our newborn King, their gift was in return--Jesus).

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Hannahgirl
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that's not what I read either. If the Christmas Tree has not been made into an idol in America I don't know what has.....there will NOT be one in my home this year.

In fact....we are having a problem with the whole THING...since Christ never told us to do this.....did not tell us when His Birthday was....maybe so we wouldn't turn it into this MESS the world does now.

WE AS CHRISTIANS MUST RE-THINK CHRISTMAS AND ALL it's HOOPLA....if Christ DID NOT TELL US TO DO THIS STUFF...and THE WORD IS THE BOTTOM LINE FOR US....then we MUST why we are doing it at all.

The materialism, the money, the gluttony, the idol worship....and don't get me started on SANTA...SATAN !!! GOD have mercy on our souls...for all the God's we have before HIM.

[tears]

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Miguel
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Art the problem was not so much the tree but that they carve and image that they may worship! (Skilful men)

Jer 10:9 There is silver beaten into plates, which is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the artificer and of the hands of the goldsmith; blue and purple for their clothing; they are all the work of skilful men.

Jer 10:14 Every man is become brutish and is without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his graven image; for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

Jer 51:17 Every man is become brutish and is without knowledge; every goldsmith is put to shame by his image; for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them.

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

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art
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Jer 10 "Does" describe the christmas tree, however it is not a good nor a bad thing to have a tree, it is just a wasted effort. It does say it is the way of the heathen (v2) so I would rather err on the side of not having one.

10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

10:5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

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Miguel
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quote:
Originally posted by art:
Thats not how I read it.

What do you received when you read it?

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

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art
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Thats not how I read it.
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Miguel
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By Pastor Richard P. Bucher

A number or well-meaning readers of the "Origin and Meaning of the Christmas Tree" article have written me with questions or accusations based on Jeremiah 10. These readers state that Jeremiah 10 proves that the Christmas tree is a pagan custom and is forbidden by God. Therefore, they argue, all those who decorate a Christmas tree in their home are sinning in God's sight. This is quite the serious charge. Let us briefly examine Jeremiah 10 and the argument based upon it to see if there is any merit to this argument.

What exactly does Jeremiah 10 say? Below is Jeremiah 10:1-10:

This is what the LORD says: "Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. 3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. 5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." 6 No one is like you, O LORD; you are great, and your name is mighty in power. 7 Who should not revere you, O King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise men of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you. 8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols. 9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple-- all made by skilled workers. 10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

The verses that the concerned readers repeatedly cite are 10:2-4: "Do not learn the ways of the nations . . . For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. 4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter." "Aha!" these readers say. "Jeremiah is talking about the Christmas tree!" But closer examination reveals that he certainly is not!

First, there is the immediate context of this passage. The very next verse, 10:5, goes on to say, "Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good." This passage and the passages that follow make it crystal clear that the "decorated tree" that Jeremiah was talking about in 10:3-4, was a tree that was cut down and made into an idol, a very common custom in the ancient world. 10:8-10 also confirms this, where the wooden idols are contrasted with the LORD, who is the true and living God. Keil and Delitsch, the well-respected Old Testament commentary, confirms this interpretation that the trees in question were idols that were then worshiped (C. F. Keil and F. Delitsch, Commentary on the Old Testament, "Jeremiah, Lamentations," vol 8 (Grand Rapids: William B. Eeerdmans Publishing Company, 1980), 196-199).

Second, when we search the rest of the Old Testament, we find many other examples of trees being planted, cut down, or carved into idols. One of the most common examples of a tree idol was the Asherah, mentioned often in the Old Testament. Asherah was a pagan goddess that was worshiped throughout the Mediterranean world. She was considered to be the goddess of the sea, the consort of El, and the mother of Baal. She was always represented as a tree or pole, either planted or erected, then decorated. There are many warnings in the Old Testament about the Asherah tree. For example, in Exodus 34:12-14, we read, "Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. 13 Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. 14 Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." From a more thorough study we learn that the Asherah idol was sometimes planted (Deut. 16:21; Micah 5:14), sometimes erected at high places (1 Kings 14:23, 2 Kings 17:10), with altars and incense stands next to them where they would be worshiped (In Judges 6:25, Gideon is commanded by God to "Tear down your father's altar to Baal and cut down the Asherah pole beside it." See also Isaiah 17:8 and Jeremiah 17:2). The Asherah, along with other man-made idols, were often decorated with various cloth hangings (2 Kings 23:7), as well as gold and silver.

Isaiah 44:14-19 gives a detailed picture of how a tree was cut down and fashioned into an idol - and the absurdity of it all.

He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. 15 It is man's fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. 16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire." 17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." 18 They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. 19 No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"

From the foregoing, it is abundantly clear that the "decorated tree" to which Jeremiah 10 refers is an idol, very likely the Asherah. Therefore, it is very superficial Bible interpretation and pure silliness to understand this passage as directly referring to the use of a fir tree for Christmas! If, and I repeat, if those who set up a Christmas tree fall down and worship it as a god or goddess, complete with altars and incense stands, then Jeremiah 10 applies here. Or if someone loves their Christmas tree more than God, then such a thing might also be considered spiritual idolatry. But apart from these exceptions, I think it is abundantly clear that Christians who erect Christmas trees are NOT worshiping them as gods or goddesses, nor are they loving them more than their Savior Jesus Christ. They are simply using the Christmas tree as a fun custom, one that can remind them of Jesus who is the branch of David (Jeremiah 23:5; 33:15), the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1). One that can remind them of the tree that led Adam and Eve to sin, but more importantly, the tree on which Christ Jesus died to make atonement for the sins of the whole world (Acts 5:30; Gal. 3:13; 1 Peter 2:24).

Christians should know that they can use a Christmas tree with a good conscience. It is unfortunate and wrong when well-meaning Christians call something sin that is not sin, and enslave the consciences of their fellow believers with imaginary sin! Shame on such Christians! Those who continue to believe that the Christmas tree is pagan and sinful, even after having their conscience correctly informed, should not use them. For it is not right to sin against conscience. This is regrettable, however, since there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a Christmas tree.

December, 2000

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator


 
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