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Topic: Promise Keepers

barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35

posted

Greetings in the Name of our Messiah Yahshua [Jesus] son of the Most High YaHWeH God Almighty!

Ama

quote:
Barry ,
I am sorry you were offended by my responses . I can sometimes come across as sarcastic or harsh .

No sir im not offended at all, i just thought that they were sarcastic remarks, and i love you enough to tell you.

Ama

quote:
Not much unlike Elijah or Peter or perhaps John the Baptist .Even our Lord Jesus took action that I am sure made some look down on Him in pious disgust and disdain as he tore through the Temple turning over the merchants tables .

Brother if you think that i looked down on you in pious disgust forgive me. That never was my intent nor was i aware of it at all.

Ama

quote:
When I see Injustice and Uninformed bias against The Lord Jesus Christ , and his servants , I will never hold back . My methods or style of the spoken or written word may not appeal to some , or even most , but I will only speak the truth as I know it .

Brother i see no bias against the Lord Jesus [Yahshua], as far as your speaking the truth (to me) is not in question here at all. It was your method. [sarcasim] i feel that you are speaking what you believe to be the truth as well as BHL and others on the oposing side. Like i said i will read up on both sides, and have been, for to make a decision without hearing the [whole] of the matter as scipture states "is unwise".

Ama

quote:
I appreciate you saying you will READ both views and make a decision then . But it appears you judged my opinions by their tone , and less regarding the substance

The only way i could judge is by reading what you stated: ie;

No need for me to quote it again, i posted it earlier. My aim is not to discredit you Ama, not BHL, Nor Mac, nor art, nor Soujourner, nor anyone who posted here. For im not informed enough to make a judgement on this matter.. [Smile]

My only remarks were out of sheer concearn for you Ama, for some may surely pick up on the sarcasim and not even check out your links nor your point of view. [Smile]

Ama

quote:
Regardless of what I , or anyone else has written here , one should just GO to PK instead of looking here on this board for answers .When you think about it , does anyone here know for sure how many members are TRULY Christians ?

Brother i call you Brother because of your profession of Faith and salvation in Yahshua {Jesus} the saviour and Messiah (Gk Christ)

Until one proves other wise i have learned to give them the benefit of the doubt. For sure devils walk and post amoung us. You have to try the spirits, and descern, by the Holy Spirit and the reading and studying of God's Word.

There is only one person that posts regularly that i personally know. Other than that its surely up to whats said and our Father guiding me.

But as you say i will read and see for myself..(barean i guess).. [Smile]

Just too important to neglect one studying for themself.. amen

Ama

quote:
As perynol said , PK is not a church . The goal is to help Christian men in their walk with the Lord , and to lead the unsaved to Christ .

What is the "church" or gathering thereof for?

Eph 4

EPH 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called,
EPH 4:2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
EPH 4:3 giving diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
EPH 4:4 `There is' one body, and one Spirit, even as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
EPH 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
EPH 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in all.
EPH 4:7 But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
EPH 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.
EPH 4:9 (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
EPH 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
EPH 4:11 And he gave some `to be' apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
EPH 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
EPH 4:13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
EPH 4:14 that we may be no longer children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
EPH 4:15 but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, `even' Christ;
EPH 4:16 from whom all the body fitly framed and knit together through that which every joint supplieth, according to the working in `due' measure of each several part, maketh the increase of the body unto the building up of itself in love.
EPH 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the vanity of their mind,
EPH 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;
EPH 4:19 who being past feeling gave themselves up to lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
EPH 4:20 But ye did not so learn Christ;
EPH 4:21 if so be that ye heard him, and were taught in him, even as truth is in Jesus:
EPH 4:22 that ye put away, as concerning your former manner of life, the old man, that waxeth corrupt after the lusts of deceit;
EPH 4:23 and that ye be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
EPH 4:24 and put on the new man, that after God hath been created in righteousness and holiness of truth.
EPH 4:25 Wherefore, putting away falsehood, speak ye truth each one with his neighbor: for we are members one of another.
EPH 4:26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
EPH 4:27 neither give place to the devil.
EPH 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labor, working with his hands the thing that is good, that he may have whereof to give to him that hath need.
EPH 4:29 Let no corrupt speech proceed out of your mouth, but such as is good for edifying as the need may be, that it may give grace to them that hear.
EPH 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.
EPH 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and railing, be put away from you, with all malice:
EPH 4:32 and be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving each other, even as God also in Christ forgave you.
EPH 5:1 Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children;
EPH 5:2 and walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for an odor of a sweet smell.

i post it all for it is soooooooo goooood to hear, like a soothing balm for the heart and soul of man, to those that have had their heart broken and continue to have thier hearts broken for the cause of Christ..amen

Hope that i have helped some in my quest for truth...
i am sure as the Lord leads i will post more as i study to see for myself the conclusion on the matter.. Thanks for the help everyone..

in Him
barry

--------------------
The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

Meanwhile , back at the ranch ...

--------------------
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Greeting all,

Ray, pay close attention to the words helpforhomeschooler wrote, very good advise.
I say one thing to you, “The heart of every issue, is the issue of the heart” Seek understanding of “The Parable of the Sower”.
If your heart (the ground) in the parable of the sower , is being allowed (by you) to be broken up (cultivated) by the Holy Spirit (resist not the Holy Spirit). GOD will not allow you to be deceived by Satan. Do not become complacent in your walk with the LORD. Do not let one word spoken by man go unchallenged,

ACTS 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

GOD is faithful to those that love HIS WORD, HE will not let you lead your family astray. Serve HIM with your whole heart. Try the spirits, examine them by the WORD.
Just because someone may sound good or even work miracles, do not except them as from GOD, for Satan will deceive many in these last days.

2COR 11:14 And no marvel; “for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.”

2THESS 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Anything that does not agree with HIS WORD, must be cast aside..

HEB 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Joe, you say quote “as that is impossible while still professing Christ as Lord”. The scriptures say that many shall say in that day……..

John Wesley’s Commentary

Matthew 7:1

Judge not - any man without full, clear, certain knowledge,
without absolute necessity, without tender love.
#Luke 6:37|.

7:2

With what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you - Awful
words! So we may, as it were, choose for ourselves, whether God
shall be severe or merciful to us. God and man will favor the
candid and benevolent: but they must expect judgment without
mercy, who have showed no mercy.

7:3

In particular, why do you open your eyes to any fault of your
brother, while you yourself are guilty of a much greater? The
mote - The word properly signifies a splinter or shiver of wood.
This and a beam, its opposite, were proverbially used by the
Jews, to denote, the one, small infirmities, the other, gross,
palpable faults. #Luke 6:41|.

7:4

How sayest thou - With what face?

7:5

Thou hypocrite - It is mere hypocrisy to pretend zeal for the
amendment of others while we have none for our own. Then - When
that which obstructed thy sight is removed.

7:6

Here is another instance of that transposition, where of the
two things proposed, the latter is first treated of. Give not - to
dogs - lest turning they rend you: Cast not - to swine - lest
they trample them under foot.
Yet even then, when the beam is cast out of thine own eye, Give
not - That is, talk not of the deep things of God to those whom
you know to be wallowing in sin. neither declare the great things
God hath done for your soul to the profane, furious, persecuting
wretches. Talk not of perfection, for instance, to the former;
not of your experience to the latter. But our Lord does in nowise forbid us to reprove, as occasion is, both the one and the other.
7:7

But ask - Pray for them, as well as for yourselves: in this
there can be no such danger. Seek - Add your own diligent endeavours to your asking: and knock - Persevere importunately endeavours to your asking: and knock - Persevere importunately in that diligence. #Luke 11:9|.
7:8

For every one that asketh receiveth - Provided he ask aright, and ask what is agreeable to God's will.

7:11

To them that ask him - But on this condition,
that ye follow
the example of his goodness, by doing to all as ye would they
should do to you. For this is the law and the prophets - This is
the sum of all, exactly answering #Mt 5:17|.
The whole is comprised in one word, Imitate the God of love.
Thus far proceeds the doctrinal part of the sermon. In the next verse begins the exhortation to practise it.
7:12

#Luke 6:31|.

7:13

The strait gate - The holiness described in the foregoing chapters. And this is the narrow way. Wide is the gate, and many there are that go in through it - They need not seek for this; they come to it of course. Many go in through it, because strait is the other gate - Therefore they do not care for it; they like a wider gate. #Luke 13:24|. 7:15

Beware of false prophets - Who in their preaching describe a broad way to heaven: it is their prophesying, their teaching the
broad way, rather than their walking in it themselves, that is
here chiefly spoken of. All those are false prophets, who teach o any other way than that our Lord hath here marked out. In
sheep's clothing - With outside religion and fair professions of
love: Wolves - Not feeding, but destroying souls.
7:16

By their fruits ye shall know them - A short, plain, easy
rule, whereby to know true from false prophets: and one that
may be applied by people of the weakest capacity, who are not
accustomed to deep reasoning. True prophets convert sinners to God, or at least confirm and strengthen those that are converted. False prophets do not. They also are false prophets,
who though speaking the very truth, yet are not sent by the
Spirit of God, but come in their own name, to declare it: their
grand mark is, "Not turning men from the power of Satan to God."
#Luke 6:43,44|.

7:18

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt
tree good fruit - But it is certain, the goodness or badness here
mentioned respects the doctrine, rather than the personal
character. For a bad man preaching the good doctrine here delivered, is sometimes an instrument of converting sinners to instrument of converting sinners to
God. Yet I do not aver, that all are true prophets who speak the truth, and thereby convert sinners. I only affirm, that
none are such who do not.

7:19

Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down
and cast into the fire - How dreadful then is the condition of
that teacher who hath brought no sinners to God!

7:21

Not every one - That is, no one that saith, Lord, Lord - That makes a mere profession of me and my religion, shall enter - Whatever their false teachers may assure them to the contrary:
He that doth the will of my Father - as I have now declared it. Observe: every thing short of this is only saying, Lord, Lord. #Luke 6:46|.

7:22

We have prophesied - We have declared the mysteries of thy kingdom, wrote books; preached excellent sermons: In thy name done many wonderful works - So that even the working of miracles done many wonderful works - So that even the working of miracles is no proof that a man has saving faith.
7:23

I never knew you - There never was a time that I approved
of you: so that as many souls as they had saved, they were
themselves never saved from their sins. Lord, is it my case?
#Luke 13:27|.

7:24

#Luke 6:47|.

7:29

He taught them - The multitudes, as one having authority - With
a dignity and majesty peculiar to himself as the great Lawgiver,
and with the demonstration and power of the Spirit: and not as
the scribes - Who only expounded the law of another; and that in a
lifeless, ineffectual manner.

pereynol, as HIS children we should not allow ourselves to be associated with anything that does not present the whole truth.

EPH 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove [them].

Some do not understand what Y’SHUA was talking bout when HE said …….

MT 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.

John Wesley Commentary

If a person as dear as a right eye, or as useful as a
right hand, cause thee thus to offend, though but in heart.
Perhaps here may be an instance of a kind of transposition
which is frequently found in the sacred writings: so that the
29th verse may refer to 27, 28; and the 30th to ver. 21, 22.
#Mt 5:29,27,28,30,21,22|
As if he had said, Part with any thing, however dear to you, or
otherwise useful, if you cannot avoid sin while you keep it.
Even cut off your right hand, if you are of so passionate a
temper, that you cannot otherwise be restrained from hurting
your brother. Pull out your eyes, if you can no otherwise be
restrained from lusting after women.
#Matt 18:8; Mark 9:43|.

We must avoid evil, in all of its many forms. Put it away from us, we do not take THIS PRECIOUS GIFT OF SALVATION as serious as we should.

2COR 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
2COR 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
2COR 11:5 For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2COR 11:6 But though [I be] rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
2COR 11:7 Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
2COR 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages [of them], to do you service.
2COR 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all [things] I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and [so] will I keep [myself].
2COR 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2COR 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
2COR 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2COR 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2COR 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2COR 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

John Wesley Commentary

11:3

But I fear - Love is full of these fears. Lest as the
serpent - A most apposite comparison. Deceived Eve - Simple,
ignorant of evil. By his subtilty - Which is in the highest
degree dangerous to such a disposition. So your minds - We might
therefore be tempted, even if there were no sin in us. Might
be corrupted - Losing their virginal purity. From the simplicity
that is in Christ - That simplicity which is lovingly intent on
him alone, seeking no other person or thing.

11:4

If indeed - Any could show you another Saviour, a more
powerful Spirit, a better gospel. Ye might well bear with him
- But this is impossible.

11:6

If I am unskilful in speech - If I speak in a plain,
unadorned way, like an unlearned person. So the Greek word
properly signifies.

11:7

Have I committed an offence - Will any turn this into
an objection? In humbling myself - To work at my trade. That
ye might be exalted - To be children of God.

Satan used the WORD to decieve Eve,
Satan used the same technique on JESUS,
Satan through men today use the same technique,

We will only overcome, with a heart in tune with the Heart of GOD through HIS WORD.

Roman Catholicism can not be embraced by any that follow the True Faith of The LORD JESUS.

On that fact alone and not considering anything else, Promise Keepers should be avoided by any seeking to follow The LORD , "IN TRUTH!"

99.9% Truth + 0.1% Lie = 100% LIE

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

Ray ,
You seem to be a wise and thoughtful person , so going to promise keepers surely can not hurt. There are most likley going to be some speakers there that you may have differences with , but that is a good thing. I am a Far Right Conservative Christian who stands on the Word of God as the Final Word . But I am not so closed minded that I cannot find good in what others within the Christian community have to say .

Barry ,
I am sorry you were offended by my responses . I can sometimes come across as sarcastic [Roll Eyes]

or harsh

. Not much unlike Elijah or Peter or perhaps John the Baptist .Even our Lord Jesus took action that I am sure made some look down on Him in pious disgust and disdain as he tore through the Temple turning over the merchants tables [uhoh]

. When I see Injustice and Uninformed bias against The Lord Jesus Christ , and his servants , I will never hold back . My methods or style of the spoken or written word may not appeal to some , or even most , but I will only speak the truth as I know it .
I appreciate you saying you will READ both views and make a decision then . But it appears you judged my opinions by their tone , and less regarding the substance .
Regardless of what I , or anyone else has written here , one should just GO to PK instead of looking here on this board for answers .When you think about it , does anyone here know for sure how many members are TRULY Christians ? It is like the guy who thinks he has been chat room with a beautiful young maiden , and when he finally gets to meet her face to face , she is actually a dude that looks like an serial killer .

pereynol ,
You said it much better than I . I appreciate your wisdom . I only wish I could write half as intelligently as you do . Thank you for your input .

A few words on what I have read here and on other websites critisizing PK . There has been the accusation that they are Pro-homosexual . That is absolute NONSENSE . The fact that they encourage people who engage in that SIN to come to the conventions does not make them Pro Anything , except for Pro JESUS . The point is , they do not knowingly have any pastors or speakers promoting a gay lifestyle or any other sinful lifestyle , sexual or otherwise .... It is a " He who is without sin , throw the first stone thing " .

As perynol said , PK is not a church . The goal is to help Christian men in their walk with the Lord , and to lead the unsaved to Christ .

Regarding the mantra of the naysayers that we should not trust in men but in God Alone , they only apply that when it is referring to men they have some disagreement with . Furthermore , Even Jesus had close friends to confide in during His time on earth . It is true that they abandoned Him in His darkest hour , but that does not minimize the fact that He chose them as His earthly brothers . We are supposed to find support groups to help in our walk with the Lord . That is what PK promotes .

Yee Hah , has the Rodeo started yet ? [Rolling]

--------------------
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

posted

Ray:

I want to first say that you are a blessing to me. Your humble spirit is a great witness to us all. The Lord is using you right now to witness to us and you don't even realize it.

You do need good male friends to support you and pray with you, and maybe you will be the one in your neighborhood to start such a group. This kind of fellowship we all need. Some of us have found a great fellowship and support here and have come to trust and really love one another. There is so much power in praying together. The bonds formed by praying with a small group are incredible. Start a Bible study in your home. No leaders just people who want to get together and study God's word. God will lead when we stop trying to and let him. A group of couples at my church started meeting once a week to do a Bible study on Marriage and it was incredible the friendship and bonds that formed!

Some nights we found ourselves in strong prayer warfare on issues that involved our church and we as individuals would have been helpless to address, but the spirit moved and we recognized it. We could not have caused this intentionally. God put our group together, he selected the personalities, struggles, common issues, and that is why it worked.

I have a friend from church that is such a blessing to me. She listens to me, and gives correction and most of all she prays for me. I could call her at 3:30 in the morning and say get up and pray with me NOW and she would. I believe God brings these people into our lives because He knows our needs and meets every one if we allow him to.

My best advice is just be more aware of who God brings in your life, I call them devine appointments and we sometimes miss them because we are not actively looking for them.

As far as teaching you. I want to show you this verse:

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Does this mean teachers are not good? NO, some are gifted or graced by God and he uses them to teach, but the point is the Holy Spirit will teach you everything you need to know. Even when a teacher is present, it is the Holy Spirit that brings the truth alive in our spirit.

I have found that many get into trouble seeking first man's opinion. Commentaries and sermons are helpful, so are the views and opinions of others, but only after you have first sought out God and His written word in the Bible and The Holy Spirit.

Get a good concordance. Or a book that lists topics like for example health, and then search out and read all the scripture on health. Then after you think you have an understanding of What God is speaking to you, look at what others have to say. How do their thoughts line up with what you read? Pray about it. I promise you if you seek God ans HIS wisdom first in prayer, then in word you will be astounded at what he will show you.

The online Bible I gave you the web address for in another post is so helpful for study, because I find it lets me search phrases. If I want to know about the Lord of Lords,,, I can search Lord of Lords and read every reference in the Bible to Lord of Lords.

One more thing... You said you know you are not perfect enough for the Lord. This is not true if you have accepted Jesus as Lord of your life and Savior of your soul. We are perfect by HIM who lives in us. We cannot be perfect enough on our own. Perfect in the bible is "whole" "Complete" we are made perfect "whole and complete" through Christ.

Christ perfects us completes us the way a husband and wife complete each other. Two make one perfect whole complete in need of no other parts.

Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

ray
Advanced Member
Member # 264

posted

I am really glad that I have started this thread with the intention of getting some of my doubts answered. I beleive they were and I am very nervous about the realities of the present state of "church" in this world. I truly want to know the Lord and take my family on that path but I find that trusting people in the church is not easy. I am definitely not perfect enough for the Lord but I do not want someone who teaches the wrong things to make it even harder for my family and I. I pray many times during my days and I often pray to find a true teacher so that I can learn the bible. This leads me to look at things such as PK. I beleive wholeheartedly in my salvation in the Lord but I feel very small and lacking. Any advice for moving forward? Carefully listening to you all!

Posts: 22 | From: minnesota | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |

Joe
New Member
Member # 373

posted

Note..when I say ungodly above, I do not mean that they weren't following God at all, but that they did ungodly things at times in their life, or in some cases throughout their entire ministry. They were Godly in that they were Christians, but they made mistakes and errors and in some cases went very far to once spectrum or another. Just like we do sometimes.

--------------------
In Christ alone will I glory!

Joe

Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged |

Joe
New Member
Member # 373

posted

It is sad to me that the whole point against Promise Keepers is the "assumption" that they are ecumenical and ungodly because they seek to erase denominational lines that should have never been created in the first place. Denominations are extra biblical and have no basis for scriptural backing. I won't say that God won't use them for His own purposes, but I can say that they are made by men, no God. The assumption is that charismatics, pentecostals are bad because the most seen of their leaders are in error, or going too far in "some" areas. Let me stress that. "Some areas" not all. To dismiss all for the some is simply silly. This lack of desire to unite with each other to see the Word brought to every nation, to see believers won to Christ, is the very reason the church is falling apart. The Word says that they will know us by our love for one another. But love is a concept quickly leaving the church over majoring on the minors. Word of Faith is not the sum and end of all that is Charismatic. Even most charismatics would tell you where some leaders have made errors. But need I remind you that your pastors, their leaders, their teachers, all of us make errors. We will all be surprised when we get to heaven to find our pet peeves in Christianity will be debunked.

WOF leaders going astray does not negate the work of godly men in the charismatic renewal. Just like the ungodly men involved in other moves of God don't negate those. Martin Luther, a favorite of many was known to curse in his sermons and to be anti-semitical. But did God use him? There isn't any denying that he did. John Wesley went very far in the area of what it took to be holy, denying his wife a true relationship and moving into very legalistic areas, but did God use him? Yes.

There are some very dangerous things being shown here on this site in this thread. They grieve me greatly and I won't return to this thread. We have better things to do than to attack one another..and that is what it has really come to. Lovingly reproving another has taken on a whole new art form in the Christian church and it is at all time dangerous levels.

In the end I know where I will be going. I seek to serve God, but I believe in a God of power that wishes us to experience him as well. Promise Keepers do exactly what they say they do. They call men to integrity and holiness, while trying to break down barriers that keep us from working together as "One body and many parts." Keep in mind that while the enemy may come as an "angel of light", he is also the accuser of the brethren..and if he can keep us divided he will keep us from being totally effective. Be careful that you do not denounce so much that suddenly you are the "only one that is right" as others have claimed in the past.

As a charismatic I see the excess in our "move" and I also see that same excess in every denominational church around..maybe in different areas, but still it is there. The allowing of homosexuals into ministry. The allowing of abortion, the destruction of marriages, sex abuse to children, fleecing the flock, the list goes on. It isn't a charismatic problem, it is a church problem. One that if we don't fix together will tear us apart individually. It has nothing to do with accepting world religions that do not glorify God...it is about the Church that loves God, loving each other in unity and working towards the same goal of making disciples of every nation.

This is my last post here. I can only pray that this reaches someone's heart. God hates disunity, but the devil loves it. Keep that in mind.

Love in Christ.

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In Christ alone will I glory!

Joe

Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged |

Joe
New Member
Member # 373

posted

That is an excellent view, Barry. Everyone should look at both sides before dismissing a view and to seek the Lord's council. I would also caution against using the imperfection of a leader in a movement to denounce the movement. Barry, I can assure you that Promise Keepers seeks to only glorify God by calling men to accountability and integrity in all their affairs. It seeks to erase denominational barriers that destroy our affectiveness as a family in the Body of Christ. It does not seek to bring us into union with the WCC or other religions, as that is impossible while still professing Christ as Lord.

I am not a PK member, but I have studied them and I have been to their meetings. My uncle is a strong Promise Keeper and is a God loving Baptist. We disagree on many issues, my being a non denominational charismatic, but not on Promise Keepers. At their meeting I was called to do all things with integrity and honesty, to serve God, my family, my church and every area of my life. I was challenged to be a real man for God, not a wishy washy believer that chaffs under the attack of the enemy or the world that would denounce Christ.

I would recommend to everyone to read the other side of the "revival" issue that Mr Hanegraff tries to denounce. Read Quenching the Spirit by William DeArtega. Doing a search on the web for Mr DeArtega's name will give you a link to the book ordering site.

It's easy to dismiss things that don't make sense to us or don't line up with our logical reasonings, but when God's ways are so far above our own, it is also a dangerous road to take.

Hopefully everyone recieves this in the love it is intended. I encourage everyone to seek information from the Promise Keepers themselves and not just what is said about them. I think you will find Godly people trying to work out their salvation like the rest of us. Some make mistakes as we all do, but our mistakes to not suddenly disqualify all that we have done. There are many examples of the truth of this in the Bible.

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In Christ alone will I glory!

Joe

Posts: 5 | Registered: Sep 2002 | IP: Logged |

Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

posted

Helpforhomeschoolers this was 1/2 and 1/2 some where mines and the other I pull out to make a better point on the matter.

Its not easy when the WORD of GOD root out blindness, I was part of a family that have Mormons, Jehovah's, Pentecostal, Baptize and Witches but in GODS mercy HE unfold the darkness in mine eyes and show me HIS wonderful precious LIGHT.

You see all this time I thought that I was doing the right, you do this you do that, but GOD was the ONE that took away that VAIL OUT of mine EYES and brought me to HIM.

That is GRACE.

BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY

Thank You
Love in Christ [Cross]

MAC

Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

PS 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

[Lighthouse]

Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

I steel have some heavy struggles with this flesh, but I give the glory to GOD because HE keeps me and convictions come upon me when old me start to come out, HE is glorify in my weakness.

1 Corinthians 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

1 Corinthians 2:3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

1 Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

posted

MAC:

You put a lot of thought and work into that post. It is a very good post. I think you hit at the heart of this matter.

We cannot forget that the enemy appears as an angel of light. We cannot forget that Jesus said they came crying Lord Lord have we not prophesied in your name...

Those who cry this knew the name, and were followers claiming His name. But apparently more is required of us.

I dont think any here who have posted against this organization, deny that there are many involved who love Christ and are saved, and seek His face. I can tell you I personally know people who are involved in this group that are saved love Christ with all their hearts and dilligently seek his face.

I think the points Mac has made are valid We must seek His face HIS way. Let us not forget Cain brought an offering to the Lord!

Does God turn lives around at promise keepers conventions, I certainly think so! Does God heal at Binny Hinn meetings YES. God works where and When He wants and through whom He wants. He used Cyrus (a treatcherous Pagan Persian King) to return the Jews to Jerusalem and finance the temple! My husband owns a "Change The Tide" T-shirt, has been to promise keeps and has friends who go yearly. But God gave us somethings to think on with regard to this organization.

But we must be careful of what underlies what we are involved in. Are we seeking God man's way (our way) or God's way. Is our sacrifice given His way or our way? Does He want us to feel good and warm and fuzzy or does he want us to feed the sheep? Does he care about your bumper sticker or the cup of grain that fed a starving child? Does he want you to be recognized walking down the street by your "Change The Tide" t-shirt or your extended hand to the woman at the grocery store with kids in both arms and a shopping cart that needs to be returned to the stall?

We must remember that some will call His name Lord, Lord. They will speak of His coming, they will do good works in His name, but they will not be intimate with Him because He said I never Knew them.

There have been as Amber pointed out a lot of sarcasim in this thread and in others as of recent and I hope that we will pray about this. I think we can make our points without beating each other up.

Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

pereynol
Advanced Member
Member # 23

posted

quote:
Originally posted by barrykind:
Greetings all,
Perynol did you read the posts in their entireity?

This is not KNATS....The PK's are accepting all kinds of faiths, esp. the cult of the Roman Catholic Church....

Thats large camels to me..

Well, one must keep in mind a few distinctions here. While PK is a Christian organization, it is not quite the same thing as the church proper; rather it is a parachurch organization. You wouldn't expect, for example, someone to substitute involvement with the PK for going to a local church---no, one ought to see the difference between the two. There are a variety of parachurch groups out there today, such as Full Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship, Intervarsity, Campus Crusade, Young Life, Crisis Pregnancy Center, The Christian Coalition, the now defunct Moral Majority, and many others. All have different purposes, and some groups are more politically inclined. When a parachurch organization is politically inclined, it often resorts to associating itself with other parties, even non-christians, for several reasons.

One reason is co-belligerence, finding allies against commonly held enemies; even though these allies may not share all the Christian beliefs held by the parachurch organization, they become quite advantageous friends on the political front, allowing powerful alliances to be bulit within the society that can effect good changes which simply wouldn't be possible otherwise. Another reason for the parachurch's involvement with other parties is evangelism; once alliances are made, it becomes much easier for genuine spiritual dialog to develop. Furthermore, as in the case of Habitat for Humanity, parachurch groups become involved with the underpriviledged, whether Christian or not, simply to love them, as Jesus commanded. All these involvements may or may not entertain eccumenical ideas, which have been unfortunately misunderstood among many conservative Christians.

Now, while it is certainly a bad thing to succumb to doctrinal compromise, as eccumenism does often manifest itself, there are indeed good, solid believers that want to promote uncompromising, doctrinally pure fellowship between genuine Christians who happen to belong to different congregations with divergent doctrinal perspectives. This MB, for example, could be construed as "eccumenical" or even "parachurch" in such a sense. Contrary to what has been stated, "eccumenical" does not mean "thinking you can beleive anything you want;" rather its meaning derives from the Greek word for "the inhabited world," and it suggests an appeal towards Christian unity. Some appeals in this direction have indeed been deplorable exercises in the liberal accommodation to an increasingly secularized culture. And the WCC has definitely been guilty of such things. However, not all eccumenicals are bad, only compromising eccumenism is bad. And not all political parachurch groups and activities are bad; but it should be remembered that the parachurch is not the church itself.

It has been rightly pointed out that the parachurch organizations often conduct themselves as business ventures. This is not an unmitigated evil; it would be difficult to imagine exactly how such groups could impact society without operating as businesses on some level. However, when the local church itself begins to operate as a business, then watch out!

One more comment is in order: There have been many speculations concerning the eschatological notion of the "one-world religion" of the end-times having its roots in the eccumenical movement. While this type of thing is certainly something to watch out for, it is not necessarily the case that everyone of an eccumenical mindset, particulary an uncompromising eccumenical mindset, is simply to be dismissed as a vassal of the antichrist. C.S. Lewis, for example, was an eccumenical and promoted Christian unity, but he was not of the WCC variety. On the other hand, I believe Karl Barth was involved with the early stages of the WCC, and though he certainly had his doctrinal problems, he was still a genuine Christian who was uncompromising enough openly and courageously to resist Hitler and the Nazis while most of the church in Germany, including most of the pastors and theologians, wilted and were blown away like worthless chaff.

The point of all this is that we ought to be loving---uncompromising in doctrinal purity, but loving---which includes being understanding and educated, reaching out to others in the world and in the church who, though they might not entirely share our doctinal purity, are nevertheless those Christ commanded us to love. And if PK or other parachurch groups are fulfilling Christ's commands in this regard, they shouldn't be condemned wholesale simply because of their engaging with co-belligerants or having a few perceived eccumenical overtones.

Posts: 104 | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35

posted

Greetings all,
Perynol did you read the posts in their entireity?

This is not KNATS....The PK's are accepting all kinds of faiths, esp. the cult of the Roman Catholic Church....

Thats large camels to me.. [Smile]

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

pereynol
Advanced Member
Member # 23

posted

I am wondering whether gnats are being strained here....

Posts: 104 | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

posted

AMBER LET ME ASKED OF THEE, HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH THIS MATTER? KNOWING THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO UNITE ALL RELIGION WHEN THEY ALL DON'T BELIEVED IN THE DEITY OF GOD AND HAVE ANOTHER SAVIOR THAN JESUS.

WE SHOULD NEVER COVER THE TRUTH FOR THE SAKE OF HARMONY BETWEEN RELIGION.

BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY

Thank You
Love in Christ [Cross]

Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

QT
You all should remember that non Christians read this place too.

THAT IS WHY THRUTH IS SO IMPORTANT.

Psalms 60:4 Thou hast given a banner to them that fear thee, that it may be displayed because of the truth. Selah.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD [men] depart from evil.

John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

--------------------
Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Amber
Advanced Member
Member # 41

posted

I know a little about the group you all are discusing, but no one here sounds like they want their own statements to be taken lightly.
Not only does sarcasm appear, but judgements that NO CHRISTIAN should make appear as well. You all should remember that non Christians read this place too. It's appauling here and on other topics too. Is that what you would like others to know about you? that you are sarcastic, condemning, and judgemental???

Doesn't Jesus say let the one who is without sin cast the first stone? [Bang Head]

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But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:7

Posts: 71 | From: South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

Miguel
Advanced Member
Member # 47

posted

I recently delivered a sermon concerning the error of attempting to substitute man-made programs for God's glorious plan. Because of the interest expressed in that sermon and because of requests for copies of the text, I decided to publish the sermon and make it available to those who want to examine the message more closely. The sermon took the form of a biblical critique of the men's movement known as Promise Keepers. I stated then and state now that I am well aware that even the idea of examining the movement might produce negative reactions. After all, if the clear intent of Promise Keepers is to produce godly men, why examine the movement? What could be wrong with Christian men uniting to become more godly? Well, of course, there is everything right and nothing wrong with becoming more godly. There is a fundamental problem, however, with the Promise Keepers' approach to the Gospel and to the way godliness is achieved in the life of a believer. That is why I must examine the movement. Let me say at the outset that,
* I do not presume to judge the integrity or the motives of those in
Promise Keepers.
* I do not question the salvation of these men.
* I do not doubt that many involved with Promise Keepers are sincere,
godly men who love the Lord Jesus Christ.
Let me stress that I am concerned with the doctrine of the movement and the ministry being promoted. Any group that claims to represent Jesus Christ must 1) preach a pure Gospel, and 2) address man's spiritual growth from an accurate interpretation of God's Word. As we will see, Promise Keepers fails on both counts. Examining an issue such as this is not enjoyable and there is a temptation to ignore such an issue for the sake of unity. But God has called the church to be "the pillar and support of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15), plus we are to "examine everything carefully" (I Thess. 5:21). Part of standing for the truth involves exposing doctrine that is not in line with Scripture. My hope in writing this is that the reader would be better informed on what Promise Keepers is and be able to evaluate it more clearly in light of Scripture.
C H A P T E R O N E

What Is Promise Keepers?
Before addressing the doctrine of Promise Keepers, it is important to understand the origin and purpose of the movement. Promise Keepers is a Christian men's movement, founded in 1990 by former University of Colorado Football coach, Bill McCartney. Four thousand, two hundred men attended the first conference at Boulder, Colorado in 1991. Attendance at the 1993 and 1994 conferences exceeded 55,000. Promise Keepers has also sponsored conferences with similar attendance figures in various cities throughout the United States. Without question, Promise Keepers is a major force in Christianity.
Purpose of Promise Keepers The following statements from a Promise Keepers' affili`ted magazine, Men of Action, clearly show the purpose of Promise Keepers:
* Promise Keepers is a Christ-centered ministry dedicated to uniting
men through vital relationships to become godly men who influence
their world. \l "F1"

* We believe that we have a God-given mission to unite men who are
separated by race, geography, culture, denomination, and
economics. \l "F2"

The foundation of Promise Keepers is a set of seven descriptive statements that a prospective member of Promise Keepers must accept. These seven assertions are:
1. A Promise Keeper is committed to honor Jesus Christ through
worship, prayer, and obedience to His Word.
2. A Promise Keeper is committed to practice spiritual, moral,
ethical, and sexual purity.
3. A Promise Keeper is committed to build strong marriages and
families through love, protection, and biblical values.
4. A Promise Keeper is committed to support the mission of his church
by honoring and praying for his pastor and by actively giving his
time and resources.
5. A Promise Keeper is committed to reach beyond any racial and
denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
6. A Promise Keeper is committed to influence his world, being
obedient to the Great Commandment (Mark 12:30-31) and the Great
Commission (Matthew 28:19-20).
7. A Promise Keeper is committed to pursue vital relationships with a
few other men, understanding that he needs his brothers to help
keep his promises. \l "F3"

In addition to accepting those seven promises, Promise Keepers place strong emphasis on "vital relationships" as indicated in the following statement.
* We believe that vital relationships among men are the foundation
for helping one another become promise keepers. We contend that
this is best accomplished when a small group of men agree to pursue
God _ face to face, shoulder to shoulder, and back to back _ and
establish covenant relationships with one another . . . to be
accountable to each other. \l "F4"

* In the context of covenant relationships, a man willingly grants
other men the right to inquire about his relationship to God, his
commitment to his family, his sexuality, and his financial
dealings. \l "F5"

From their literature, one sees clearly that the purpose of Promise Keepers is to produce godliness in men. That godliness is accomplished by uniting men of various backgrounds, by keeping seven promises, and by being accountable to other men.
C H A P T E R T W O

Promise Keepers and Ecumenism
Upon studying the doctrine of the Promise Keepers, I believe there are three fundamental problems with the movement:
1 Promise Keepers is part of an ecumenical trend that puts aside
essential theological issues in order to promote a unity which is
not biblical unity.
2 The Promise Keepers' plan for producing godliness is not in accord
with God's plan as set forth in His Word.
3 Promise Keepers is founded and driven by men associated with the
Vineyard movement, a movement characterized by unsound theology.
Foundation of Ecumenism
There is great emphasis in the church today on uniting professing Christians of all denominations and beliefs. That effort is commonly referred to as "ecumenism," which is defined as "the organized attempt to bring about the cooperation and unity of all believers in Christ." \l "F6" With ecumenism is an emphasis on setting aside theological differences between denominations while focusing on areas of agreement. The areas of agreement are predominantly social, moral, and political.
The foundation for this ecumenical trend has been laid and built upon over many years. The 1960s saw the beginning of institutional ecumenism with the rise of the World Council of Churches. Members of this council were mostly liberal mainline Protestant denominations who denied such essential doctrines as the inerrancy of Scripture and a literal, bodily resurrection of Christ. For years, Evangelicals distanced themselves from this institutional ecumenism because of the unsound theology of the groups involved. Today, however, that spirit of compromise has invaded Evangelicalism. The recent Catholic-Evangelical accord is an example of such compromise. In this accord, Evangelicals compromised essential doctrines such as justification by faith alone and the sufficiency of Scripture in order to unite with Roman Catholics on issues such as abortion and school prayer. Doctrines that divided Evangelicals and Catholics for centuries are now being put aside in order to experience unity.
Another ecumenical influence has been the Charismatic movement which has been effective in uniting those who supposedly have had a common experience in the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues. Because of common experiences, doctrinal differences that once separated denominations have often been set aside. One can now be an Episcopalian, Methodist, Lutheran, or even Roman Catholic and still be united because of common experience.
The infiltration of psychology into the church has also strengthened this trend. Most Christian radio stations are saturated with Christian psychology programs, yet the vast majority of listeners to these programs know very little about the doctrine or church affiliation of the men they listen to. These men are accepted as authorities on Christian living simply because they say they are Christians and believe the Bible. These men unify Christians, not on the basis of Scripture but on their psychological influence which is trans-doctrinal.
So with the influence of institutional ecumenism, the Charismatic movement, and Christian psychology, there is wave after wave of pressure that says, "Let's not emphasize doctrine. Let's not emphasize the specifics of the Word." It is enough to say that we believe in Christ, therefore, we should not quarrel over areas of disagreement. Over time believers are worn down and are tempted to compromise. We are tempted to sacrifice truth for unity. After all, who wants to be known as divisive? Who wants to stand in the way of unity?
There is, however, great danger when the church compromises essential doctrines to unite on social, moral, and political issues. Those involved in ecumenism often quote Jesus' prayer in John 17:21, where He prayed, "that they (Christians) may all be one" to show that believers should be unified. Certainly, believers should earnestly desire the unity Jesus referred to. However, in that same prayer, Jesus prayed, "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth" (John 17:17). True unity must be based on the truth of Scripture or else it is a false unity. The Bible nowhere calls for unity at the expense of truth.
The Promise Keepers' movement is also part of this ecumenical trend of down-playing doctrine for unity. In one Promise Keeper publication this is clearly evident:
* We believe that we have a God-given mission to unite men who are
separated by race, geography, culture, denomination, and economics \l "F7"
(italics mine).
* A Promise Keeper is committed to reach beyond any racial and
denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity \l "F8"
(italics mine).
Promise Keepers is committed to reaching across denominational barriers in an effort to unite men. And they have been successful in doing that. Promise Keepers supporters and sponsors include Evangelicals, Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, Charismatics, and others. These groups have been divided by major doctrinal differences for many years. But now these differences are being dropped for the sake of unity. One pastor, who attended a Promise Keepers' meeting said,
* I . . . experienced the true oneness among brethren of different
faiths, races, and colors, and I also experienced an appreciation
of diversity \l "F9" (italics mine). Notice that the "oneness" described
had nothing to do with biblical truth but rather with feelings and
emotions. True "oneness," however, must be based on biblical truth,
or it is not true "oneness." There is a difference between
experiential and spiritual oneness. We can watch a movie with other
people and laugh and cry together because we share the same
experience. We may have experiential oneness but that is not Holy
Spirit produced unity. The ecumenical nature of Promise Keepers can
also be seen in the following quotation:
* We are dedicated, then, to addressing the division that has
separated the body of Christ for too long. We are committed to call
men to reconcile in Christ, to live as one. \l "F10" That statement sounds
virtuous. After all, who does not want unity? Who does not want
division put aside? But skipping over doctrinal issues is not the
way to biblical unity. The Evangelical Church has traditionally
taken a stand against the doctrines of the liberal Protestant
denominations and the Catholic Church. Many liberal Protestant
denominations deny the deity of Christ, the infallibility of
Scripture, and the literal reality of the resurrection. One cannot
be saved and hold to such errors. The Catholic Church denies
salvation by faith alone and adds sacraments and obedience to the
Church as necessary for salvation. So when Promise Keepers say they
are "addressing the division that has separated the body of
Christ," are they addressing key issues? Are false doctrines being
addressed? Are the people in these churches challenged to flee
their false religious systems? The answer is "No." Key foundational
issues have been dropped, all for the sake of supposed unity.
There is so much theological diversity among those involved with Promise Keepers that no in-depth discussion of Scripture or what it means to be a Christian could take place without tearing the movement apart. The ecumenical nature of Promise Keepers is a serious matter. If one followed the doctrines of some of the groups involved in this movement, one could not even be a Christian. And if one is not a Christian, nothing that person does will enable him or her to be godly.
C H A P T E R T H R E E

Promise Keepers and Godliness
I once read an article in the local newspaper that stressed the importance of church, family, friends, and values. I found myself agreeing with much of the article. The only problem was that the program was sponsored by the Mormon church. Now, I do agree with Mormons that church, family, friends, and values are important, but is that enough for me to unite with them? Of course not. In spite of all these areas of agreement, there are essential doctrinal differences that will never allow me to unify with Mormons in spiritual matters. Their program is not in line with God's Word for salvation or godliness. The disagreements I have with the Mormons are what really matter, not the agreements. Likewise, with Promise Keepers, though I agree with much of what they are saying, there are doctrinal differences that will not allow me to support this movement.
Promise Keepers say they are interested in producing godly men. But is this honorable motive enough? Or does it matter how one goes about achieving godliness? I hold that true godliness can only be produced in the way God prescribed in His Word. With toys and with godliness, one must follow the instructions of the maker. Good intentions do not assemble a toy or produce godliness. Perhaps you have seen a popular sign that reads: "When all else fails, read the directions." With the assembling of toys and tools or with making some electronic device work, we may learn the hard way_more than once_that failure to follow instructions leads to failure and frustration. Obviously, with the achieving of godliness, it is far, far more critical that we follow the instructions of the Maker.
God has prescribed in His Word the way godliness is to be achieved. Promise Keepers attempt to promote godliness without following God's plan as set forth in His Word. It is possible to pursue an honorable objective in the wrong way. Paul said of his fellow Jews, "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge" (Romans 10:2). I appreciate that Promise Keepers want to help men become godly but good intentions are not enough. I am afraid their zeal is not according to knowledge.
Extra-Biblical Rules
One error of Promise Keepers is its emphasis on extra-biblical or man-made rules. As indicated earlier, being a Promise Keeper includes committing to seven promises. But nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to be saved and then follow seven promises so that we can grow spiritually. The Bible is clear that godliness does not come from man-made rules, no matter how good those rules may seem:
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" . . . in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men. . . These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement. . . but are of no value against fleshly indulgence (Col. 2:20,23). The external standards that men establish may appear to be wise, but they are of no help in producing true godliness and are of no help in fighting the flesh. The promises a Promise Keeper agrees to are of no value because they are fleshly attempts to produce godliness. As we will see, godliness must be produced by the Spirit in accordance with the Word of God. Paul confronted a group who promoted extra-biblical rules for godliness. The Judaizers of Paul's day taught that faith in Christ was necessary for salvation, but they also taught that obedience to parts of the Mosaic Law, including circumcision, were also necessary. They also taught obedience to the Law was essential for living godly lives. In other words, the Judaizers held that being godly included adhering to an external set of rules. The Christians at Galatia had fallen into this false doctrine. Paul scolded them saying:
YOU foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you. . . This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Gal. 3:2-3). The principle is clear: Just as salvation is totally of the Holy Spirit and has nothing to do with our own efforts, so too, the living out of the Christian life must be according to the Holy Spirit and not according to fleshly efforts. The way one was saved is the same way one must grow spiritually. Paul would also tell the Galatians, "Walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh" (Galatians 5:16). The key to godly living is continual reliance upon and obedience to the Holy Spirit. Though the Galatians were genuinely saved they wrongly tried to live out their lives in the flesh by keeping the rules and regulations of the Judaizers. Today we see Promise Keepers repeating the Judaizer error all over again. They teach that men will become godly by binding themselves to an agreement of seven promises. But that sets down external criteria for godliness. Godliness can only be produced by the Holy Spirit.
"Vital Relationships" We have shown that extra-biblical standards for godliness are not biblical. But now I would like to focus specifically on the issue of having "vital relationships" with other men. Promise 7 states:
* A Promise Keeper is committed to pursue vital relationships with a
few other men, understanding that he needs his brothers to help
keep his promises. . . . Each man willingly grants the others the
right to inquire about his relationship to God, his commitment to
his family, his sexuality, and his financial dealings. \l "F11"

According to this statement, men must give other men the right to inquire about family, sexual, and financial matters. Certainly as brothers in the Lord men are to encourage, rebuke, and admonish one another, but nowhere in the Bible are men told to give other men the right to inquire about those things. Obviously, if a man is involved in sin, he needs to be confronted (see Gal. 6:1). There is, however, nothing in the Bible that gives other men the right to inquire into private family and sexual matters.
God's Plan For Godliness
What is God's plan for producing godliness? We have highlighted that the Promise Keeper method is not in line with Scripture. Now we will look at God's plan as given in His Word. God's plan for godliness begins with the local church. Of the 114 references to "church" in the New Testament, over 90 refer to the local assembly of believers. We must not skip over the fact that God's plan for godliness is linked to the local church.
And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ (Eph. 4:11-13).
According to Paul, God has given the church gifted men who can instruct the body of Christ_through the Word of God_on the way to be godly. Through their teaching, pastors, teachers, and evangelists equip us, or make us ready, to do the work of the ministry. That is done, "to the building up of the body of Christ. . . to a mature man." As believers function in the context of their local church, they are built up and become mature. What is the final result of this process?
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him, who is the head, even Christ. . . (Eph. 4:14-16).
When the church teaches people the Word, the people will grow spiritually and will no longer be "tossed" around by bad doctrine. As the Spirit of God enables men of God to teach the Word of God, the people of God will grow and mature. That is God's plan for godliness. We do not have the right to decide that we have a better plan. We cannot just say, "We want to be godly; therefore, we are going to get men together who will commit to seven promises so they can be real men." Men cannot function apart from the local body of believers and expect to be godly. There may be an appearance of godliness, but it is not biblical godliness.
Two Plans For Godliness?
Promise Keepers is exclusively a men's movement. But does God distinguish His plan for godliness based on gender? Is there one plan for men and another plan for women? The Bible is clear that this is not the case:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28, italics mine).
There are different roles and responsibilities indicated in the Bible for men and women, but as far as God's plan for growth in the church, there are no separate categories for men and women. The Bible never instructs men to get together to be godly. Certainly, there is nothing wrong with men meeting with other men or women meeting with other women but such meetings should be within the framework of the local church. Programs specifically for men find no precedent in Scripture.
One cannot mix sound biblical doctrine with false doctrine and expect it to produce godly men. Most of the promises a Promise Keeper makes are not inherently wrong, but godliness is not the result of a rule or promise system. It is true that godly men do not mistreat their wives and children, but godliness is not created by getting men to commit to promises not to do these things. Godly men are produced by believing the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ and submitting themselves to the Word in the context of the local church so that they may grow to maturity. When a man becomes truly converted and submits himself to the Word, he will treat his wife and children properly. He will be a man of integrity who will have a positive impact on society.
C H A P T E R F O U R

Promise Keepers
And the Vineyard Movement
So far we have noted the ecumenical nature of Promise Keepers and its unbiblical plan for godliness. Another problem with the movement is the unsound theology of many of its leaders, especially with regards to the Charismatic movement. Historically, the Evangelical Church has consistently declared that the miraculous gifts of the Apostolic Era such as speaking in tongues, gifts of healings, and prophecies were limited to that era. God used such signs and wonders to confirm the authenticity of the Apostles and the message of the Gospel they were proclaiming (see Hebrews 2:4; II Corinthians 12:12). When the Apostolic Era ended, the miraculous gifts of that era ceased since the foundation of the church had been laid (see Ephesians 2:20), and the canon of Scripture was completed. This has been the testimony of Scripture and history for the first 1900 years of the church.
However, many in the Charismatic movement hold that the miraculous signs of the Apostolic Era are for today. One variation of the Charismatic movement is the Vineyard movement. They, too, believe that God is giving new revelation today and that the miraculous signs of the early church should be normative for today. These beliefs have led to much confusion and error.
The founder and main spokesman of Promise Keepers, Bill McCartney, is a former Catholic who converted to the Vineyard movement. Consistent with Vineyard doctrine, McCartney, when addressing Promise Keeper rallies, often gives what he claims are direct revelations from God. Thousands of men subject themselves to the teachings of a man claiming to speak on behalf of God, when Scripture is clear God is not giving new revelation in this age. But since the emphasis of Promise Keepers is on unity and not doctrine, McCartney is not held accountable for what he says.
McCartney's pastor, James Ryle, is on the Board of Directors of Promise Keepers and has close connections with the self-proclaimed prophet, and co-founder of the Vineyard movement, John Wimber. Ryle, like Wimber, also claims to be a modern-day prophet, receiving revelations from God. In November of 1990 at a Vineyard Harvest Conference in Denver, Ryle made the following statement:
* The Lord has appointed me as a lookout and shown me some things
that I want to show you. . . The Lord spoke to me and said, "What
you saw in the Beatles _ the gifting and the sound that they had _
was from me. . . It was my purpose to bring forth through music a
worldwide revival that would usher in the move of my Spirit in
bringing men and women to Christ. . ." \l "F12"

Ryle, at another time, also claimed he had a vision of a Beatles concert where the people were "screaming the Name _ Jesus." \l "F13"
Here is a leader of Promise Keepers who claims God told him the Beatles were originally God's instrument for bringing "worldwide revival." Now, I grew up in the era of the Beatles, but never did I connect their beatin' it out on Ed Sullivan with God's plan for worldwide revival. Christians need to be concerned about a man of considerable influence in the Christian community who claims to receive direct revelation from God concerning the Beatles.
Along with McCartney and Ryle, there are many other Charismatic speakers who regularly speak at the conferences. One well-known pastor in the Vineyard movement explained at a Promise Keepers' rally what he believed to be the three reasons for circumcision based on Genesis 17. He said:
* 1) God wants to touch your very identity as a man; 2) God wants to
reach out and touch your secret and private parts; 3) God wants to
touch man's creative parts. Therefore, since God touched men's
creative parts, men as God's people need to be creative in
witnessing to others. \l "F14"

But if one studies Genesis 17, he will see that circumcision was a sign of the covenant God made with the nation, Israel. It had nothing to do with being creative in witnessing. Yet thousands of men gathered together to hear such foolishness and this speaker was not accountable for misrepresenting the Word of God.
There was a time when the Evangelical Church would have stood against the unbiblical teaching of the Promise Keepers. But with the current de-emphasis on sound doctrine, that is no longer the case. As long as a man claims to be a Christian he can say whatever he wants and not worry that his teaching will be examined.
C O N C L U S I O N
The issue of promoting godliness is a serious matter. Though the leaders in Promise Keepers have good intentions, that is irrelevant. Paul did not say he appreciated the Judaizers because they had good intentions. He went right after their erroneous teaching. When anyone tampers with the Gospel and the way godliness is produced, believers need to take a stand. One of my best friends who lived in Philadelphia once got involved with the Jehovah's Witnesses. Through his interest in the Jehovah's Witnesses, I had the opportunity to discuss the Bible and Christ with him, and he eventually became a Christian. But I have never recommended that a person try out the Jehovah's Witnesses so that he or she could become a Christian. God sometimes works good in spite of men's efforts and not because of them. Though good may come from Promise Keepers I cannot recommend that men subject themselves to unsound doctrine.
The church is to be "the pillar and support of the truth." Pastors are called to shepherd the flock and watch over their souls (see Acts 20:28). That means warning them of false doctrine that may harm them. As a pastor of a church, I cannot with good conscience tell my congregation that it is all right for them to expose themselves to the doctrine of the Promise Keepers. Likewise, for the reasons given, I do not believe men should participate in the Promise Keepers' movement. I praise God for anyone who gets saved at Promise Keepers and for any ministry of the Word that may take place. But the Promise Keepers' way is not God's way for producing godliness. It is my prayer that Christians not substitute man-made programs for God's glorious plan.

End-time apostasy is not a figment of a Fundamentalist's imagination; it is a Bible doctrine. New Testament prophecy describes two separate streams of "Christianity" operating side by side throughout the church age. First, there will be true apostolic churches, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail. They will be persecuted, hated, despised, yet they will continue century by century until Christ's return. The Lord Jesus promised His faithful ones: "Lo, I am with you alway, EVEN TO THE END OF THE WORLD" (Matthew 28:20). Second, there will be apostate churches, which will increase in number and grow worse and worse as the centuries pass. Consider the following Scriptures:
"And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. ... And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. ... For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect" (Matthew 24:4,11,24).
"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29,30).
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thess. 2:3-8).
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth" (1 Timothy 4:1-3).
"But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13).
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:3-4).
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not" (2 Peter. 2:1-3).
"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).
"Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 3-4).
"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration" (Revelation 17:1-6).
The parables of Christ in Matthew 13 depict the course of this present "church age," and they describe a progression of apostasy. ["Apostasy" refers to falling away from the true Faith.] The parable of the leaven, for example, depicts a woman putting leaven into three measures of meal, "till the whole was leavened." Leaven in Scripture stands for sin and error (1 Cor. 5:6; Gal. 5:9). Thus the parable tells us that the error which was introduced by false teachers even during the days of the Apostles will gradually increase through the centuries until the entire religious system is leavened. The ultimate fulfillment of this is in Revelation 17.
The apostasy began during the lives of the Apostles and has steadily increased through the centuries. John wrote, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time" (1 John 2:18). John taught that there will be a future antichrist, singular; but he is preceded by many antichrists, plural. We believe the antichrist, singular, refers to the man of sin who will rule the end-time kingdom described in Daniel 9-11; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3-12; and Revelation 13. The antichrists, plural, refer to all who reject apostolic truth in favor of satanic deception and man-made tradition. Thus the "antichrist" is both a man and a system; it is both one man, and many men. It is in this latter sense that the popes throughout history are identified with antichrist.
Another passage which teaches the same truth is 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming." In the days of the Apostles the "mystery of iniquity" was already working, and it will culminate in the promotion of the man of sin, the Wicked One, the Antichrist, who will assume the throne of this world for a brief span. We are told that the culmination of this will not occur until just prior to the return of Christ, because the Wicked One will be destroyed "with the brightness of his coming." The "mystery of iniquity" is that program of evil whereby the devil is attempting to corrupt the churches of Jesus Christ by sowing tares and apostasy. It is associated with "Mystery Babylon the Great" in Revelation 17.
We see the direct fulfillment of these prophecies in the Christian world today. It is evident in heretical bodies such as the Roman Catholic Church and the liberal World Council of Churches denominations, none of which are founded directly and exclusively upon the apostolic Faith or the apostolic church pattern. It is also evident in the ecumenical movement, which is calling for unity in diversity at the expense of Biblical truth and which is breaking down the walls of separation between truth and error.

BRINGING OUT THE BEAUTY STEADFASTLY

Thank You
Love in Christ [Cross]

Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.

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Romans 9:11-24

Our Eschatology may vary even our Ecclesiology may be disputed among us but our Soteriology most assume a singularity and exclusivity which in biblical term is known as Quote; "The Narrow Way" and Quote!

Posts: 2792 | From: Stockton,Ca | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35

posted

Amen Brother BecauseHelives, like Kindgo and Linda stated earlier,if this is a part of the "ecuminical" movement.." which belives it dont matter what you believe" we all just need to have tolernece for one another.movement.fooy..if its not the WORD..throw it out..

amen

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Hey all,

AmaBeliever, there are many sincere men that attend Promise Keepers meetings, they may be saved , I do not know and I am not their judge. Many in these last day are being deceived, I myself was involved with the “Word of Faith” movement. I attended 4 years of Bible School under such men and women as Kenneth Hagin, Mariland Hicky, Kenneth Copland, Bob Tilton, Jerry Seville, Oral Roberts, and other not as well known. I was being deceived , thank GOD for HIS GRACE. I was sincere, but I was sincerely wrong. There is truth in the “word of Faith” teaching, but there is also much heresy. We must always weigh what is being taught in light of the “WORD OF GOD”. GOD’S GRACE will see us thru while we are still young in the LORD, but we must grow up

EPH 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The “Church” was never meant to be a business, tee shirts, ink pen, necklaces, tie clips, bumper stickers, and any other kind of religious JESUS JUNK that I may have forgot to list. It reminds me of the Temple, the day JESUS went in and turn over the money changers tables. Promise Keeper (the organization) and a lot of others are just looking for a way to turn a buck, and sincere people are spending good hard earned money, on JESUS JUNK. People starving not in foreign countries , but right here in the good old USA. The “churches” are building multi-million dollar building , so that people can be comfortable and other can see what a beautiful building we have built for GOD. We are growing they say, HOG WASH, they are full of pride. The “church” years ago took care of the widow and the orphan, they feed the hungry, saw to it those with no home had a place to sleep, but 40 years or so back they turned the responsibility over to the government. Now the “church” for the most part is a social club. Always thinking of gimmicks to get people to come. The spectacular, special singers, people want to be entertained.

EPH 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Promise Keepers is a business, like most "churches"

MT 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with [their] lips; but their heart is far from me.

HEB 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

REV 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
REV 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
REV 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
REV 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: REV 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
REV 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
REV 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
REV 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
REV 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

the church Laodiceans (a picture of the church of today)

ROM 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.
ROM 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ROM 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

"Parable of the Sower"
ROM 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
ROM 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
ROM 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
ROM 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
ROM 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
ROM 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
ROM 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
ROM 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
ROM 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
ROM 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
ROM 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
ROM 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
ROM 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
ROM 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
ROM 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
ROM 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
ROM 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
ROM 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
ROM 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
ROM 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
ROM 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. ROM 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

MT 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

JAS 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

JAS 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

When we were lost and in sin, the ground of our heart was rich and fertile, perfect for the fruit that our negative faith produced. It was the natural product of the first man Adam.

We now, if we have allowed GOD to prepair the soil of our old heart, to be broken up. HIS SEED (LOVE) FOR GOD IS LOVE ISN'T HE, will take root and produce fruit after its own kind.

Works are the natural product of Faith in JESUS Faith with works, which is simply LOVE.

MT 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
MT 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
MT 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
MT 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Promise Keeper and THE TRUE GOSPEL or like oil and water, they will not mix.

They look good , they sound good, but compromise is not taught any where in scripture, no matter how little i may seem to you , it is a big thing to GOD.

2COR 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

Roman Catholicism and THE CHURCH OF Y’SHUA , can have no fellowship with each other, for one is PURE LIGHT and the other is pure darkness.

Promise Keepers can not have it both ways if the organization is true to JESUS , Promise Keepers if JESUS is their first love, they must keep their promise to love JESUS and forsake all others.

JESUS will not take part of any , HE wants all or nothing.

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

barrykind
Advanced Member
Member # 35

posted

Greetings all;

Peace, Joy, and the agapeo of YaHWeH be multiplied unto you the body of the Messiah Yahshua [Jesus]

i know nothing about Promise Keepers, so i will read up on them..From the above posts..the posts from BecauseHelives, seems kind, and concearned..

but Amabeliver you seem to be sarcastic...

quote:
Gee maybe you all are right . We should avoid any large groups of people who want to gather together for the purpose of Praising the Lord , Teaching the Word , and Leading others to Christ .

We should all sit here at our computers and spread nasty uninformed rumors about those who participate in such evil sinister gatherings .

Afterall , we are the only ones who can be the True Beleivers huh ?

quote:
All those men at promise keepers are just there for the fun of being with others . They don't really want to seek the Lord .They just want to feel good , right ? WRONG !!

I find it downright disgusting that fellow Christians would spread such rumors about such a fine organization .

PK is not the WCC . I have no love for the WCC . BUT just because members of the WCC may be there , does not mean it is run by the WCC , so that implication is erronious .

I have to get to work , so I will lay off for now . But if you want to play later , great . Be prepared though . It ain't my first rodeo .

These comments are out of line for a Brother in the Lord... Bring out you facts in love brother amabeliever.

quote:
Here again is the Promise Keepers Evil Manifesto :

Are you a promise keeper member amabeliever?

Like i said i dont know anything about them, other that what i head some years ago that they were good, and what i have read here...
i will be reading on the above posts..

What amabeliever says seems like there ok, but the spirit in which the information is given seems not in love..just my observation..

Lord willing i shall read the information from both sides, to make a decision on a matter without knowing all the facts is unwise..

The reason for my concearn is that many, many, many are going to this group. Its truly a large movement...i would like to know if its for or against YaHWeH?..

in agapeo
barry

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The HEART of the issue is truly the issue of the HEART!
John 3:3;Mark 8:34-38;James 1:27

Posts: 3529 | From: Orange, Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

What is the origin of the name Promise Keepers?

In Christ, God kept all the promises that He made to mankind; and our name - Promise Keepers - comes from that covenant-keeping nature of the Father. As the psalmist says: "The Lord is faithful to all His promises..." And since God was the first promise keeper, He is faithful to help us keep our promises.

TAKEN FROM THE PROMISE KEEPERS OFFICIAL WEBSITE

On March 20, 1990, the head football coach for the University of Colorado, Bill McCartney, and his friend Dave Wardell, Ph.D., were on a three-hour car ride to a Fellowship of Christian Athletes (FCA) meeting, when they first discussed the idea of filling a stadium with Christian men. Later that year, 72 men began to fast and pray about the concept of thousands of men coming together for the purpose of Christian discipleship. In July 1991, 4,200 men gathered for the first Promise Keepers conference at the University of Colorado basketball arena. Promise Keepers marks it’s tenth anniversary in the year 2000, having reached more than 3.5 million men through 98 stadium and arena conferences.

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John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

PROMISE KEEPER STATEMENT OF FAITH :

1. We believe that there is one God1 eternally existing2 in three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.3

___________________

1 Deut. 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.

I Cor. 8:4
So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and there is no God but one.

2 Psalm 90:2
From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.

I Tim. 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

3 Matt. 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 13:14
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

2. We believe that Bible is God’s written revelation to man1and that it is verbally inspired2, authoritative3, and without error in the original manuscripts4.

___________________

1 2 Pet. 1:20-21
Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

2 2 Tim. 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.

3 Rev. 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

4 John 17:17
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

Matt. 5:17-18
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

3. We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ1, His virgin birth2, sinless life3, miracles4, death on the cross to provide for our redemption5, bodily resurrection and ascension into heaven6, present ministry of intercession for us7, and His return to earth in power and glory8.

___________________

1 John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Col. 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of Deity lives in bodily form.

2 Matt. 1:23
The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel - which means God with us.

3 Heb. 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are - yet without sin.

4 Acts 2:22-23
Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. This man was handed over to you, by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

5 I Pet. 3:18
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.

I John 1:7
The blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.

6 I Cor. 15:4
that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures.

Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

7 Heb. 7:25
Therefore, He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them.

8 Matt. 24:30
At that time, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

4. We believe in the personality1 and deity2 of the Holy Spirit, that He performs the miracle of new birth in an unbeliever3 and indwells believers4, enabling them to live a godly life5.

___________________

1 I Cor. 2:10-11
but God has revealed it to us them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

I Cor. 12:11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and He gives them each one, just as He determines.

Eph. 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God.

2 Acts 5:3-4
Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit?...You have not lied to men, but to God."

3 Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

4 I Cor. 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own.

5 Eph. 5:18
Be filled with the Spirit

Gal. 5:16
So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Gal. 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.

5. We believe that man was created in the image of God1, but because of sin2, was alienated from God3. Only through faith4, trusting in Christ alone5 for salvation which was made possible by His death6 and resurrection7, can that alienation be removed.

___________________

1 Gen. 1:27
So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him, male and female He created them.

2 I John 3:4
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact sin is lawlessness.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

3 Rom. 6:23
For the wages of sin is death.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear.

4 Eph. 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.

Phil. 3:9
and be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ - the righteousness that comes from God is by faith.

Rom. 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the Law.

5 John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through Me."

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

I Jn. 5:11-12
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

6 Rom. 3:24
and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

Rom. 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in this: While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Eph. 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace.

7 I Cor. 15:3-8
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

All Scripture references taken from the New International Version (NIV).

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John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

PROMISE KEEPERS MISSION STAEMENT :

Promise Keepers is dedicated to igniting and uniting men to be passionate followers of Jesus Christ through the effective communication of the 7 Promises.

A sovereign move of God's Spirit is stirring the hearts of men. In a world of negotiable values, confused identities, and distorted priorities, men are encountering God's Word, embracing their identities as His sons, and investing in meaningful relationships with God, their families and each other.

Clearly, Christian men have an unprecedented opportunity to seize this moment and make a difference for Jesus Christ. We believe that God wants to use Promise Keepers as a spark in His hand to ignite a nationwide movement calling men from all denominational, ethnic, and cultural backgrounds to reconciliation, discipleship, and godliness.

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John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

art
unregistered

posted

Thanks Sojourn for that link. PK is not a scriptural group as far as I am concerned .Hank H said it well.

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Sojourner
Advanced Member
Member # 19

posted

Ray,
I can see there are varied strong opinions being expounded here. Might I suggest you order yourself a copy of the book entitled "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Haanegraaf, the Bible answer man? His website is http://www.equip.org. And don't write off your pastor- he may not be all that familiar with the beginnings of promisekeepers. After you read the book, you may want to loan it to him with the sections highlighted that talks about promisekeepers. Not to say that there aren't a lot of Christians involved that love the Lord. But you do need to be on your guard. If you don't feel "comfy" with it, there could be good reason for you not to. Check it out! But don't abandon the church and assembling your family with other believers because of tares among the wheat, please! You need the family of God and they need you. And the Bible commands you not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together (please check your concordance, which I hope you have now, for a reference on that verse). Please, get yourself plugged into a church with good Bible teaching, look carefully at their doctrinal statement and show it to someone whom you trust who is spiritually more mature than you.

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AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

Here again is the Promise Keepers Evil Manifesto :

1. A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship, prayer
and obedience to God's Word in the power of the Holy Spirit.

2. A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men,
understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.

3. A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual
purity.

4. A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families through
love, protection and biblical values.

5. A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of his church by honoring
and praying for his pastor, and by actively giving his time and resources.

6. A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational
barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.

7. A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient to the Great
Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission (see Matthew
28:19-20 ).

Mark 12:30-31
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. (NIV)

Matthew 28:19-20
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. (NIV)

JUST GIVES YA' CHILLS DOESN'T IT ??

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John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

art
unregistered

posted

Sorry ya all. PK is not for me. Looks to me like another variation of the wcc.

PROMISE KEEPERS
A Powerful Ecumenical Thrust That Promotes Romanism!
Promise Keepers is sweeping America! It has been called "the nation's fastest-growing Christian phenomenon." Though we can rejoice that some men may get their lives turned around, we must ask the all-important question: Is it of God?

Many believers say they think Promise Keepers (PK) is good, even fantastic! The purpose of the organization is "to unite men through vital relationships to become godly influences in their world." PK calls men to commit to "the three non-negotiables of manhood: integrity. commitment, and action." This certainly does sound fantastic! The need for Christian men to develop strong character in their personal lives and leadership in their home, their church, and their community, is probably one of the greatest needs today.

Looking beneath that fantastic surface, however, there are very serious dangers. To get to the heart of PK, one must observe carefully, what else they are saying. Who are their leaders? What do those leaders stand for? Many have asked these questions. They have taken another look and are finding that what appeared to be so fantastic has turned out to be most dangerous.

We are convinced that PK is perhaps the most powerful thrust thus far to break down the barriers to the one world church of anti-Christ!

In a day when a high percentage of men, for whatever reason, are frustrated at not being able to lead and provide for their families as they had dreamed, it is understandable that they would respond positively to the atmosphere of a PK conference.

The Perilous Times publication out of South Carolina describes a PK National Men's Conference where about 50,000 men filled the stadium:

"The mood is festive as large beach balls are punched with vigor, sending them on a never-ending course throughout the crowd A styrofoam glider wafts its way from the upper regions, accompanied by oohs and aahs.

A small group of men on one side of the stadium begins to chant: 'We love Jesus; yes we do! We love Jesus; how 'bout you?' The shout grows louder as more voices join in. Soon the other side of the stadium picks up the challenge. No one wins; it's a tie as to which side shouts loudest

A ripple begins to form in one corner, Before long it makes its way into a wave, circling the stadium, as men rise from their seats, arms raised, to shout.

The appointed time to begin the program has come and gone, but there is no impatience as the men are caught up in the festivities. It's a warm summer day; everyone is having fun. So what's the rush?

Suddenly a low rumble (is it thunder?) begins softly and becomes louder. It's the sound of a jet aircraft piercing the stadium from the huge speakers strategically placed for maximum effectiveness. The large screen displays the takeoff of a jumbo jet as the announcer welcomes the crowd to the flight for restored manhood.

The stadium, full now, erupts in a cheer. These men have come for something special."

By now those in attendance are eager for what is to come. This atmosphere has been cleverly orchestrated by the leaders. Who are the leaders? University of Colorado football coach. Bill McCartney is credited with the founding of the movemen,t Randy Phillips, president and administrator, is a pastor. He led the Denver Broncos' Bible study for two years. Both are former Roman Catholics and members of Boulder Valley Vineyard Fellowship (more about that later).

It is obvious that this movement is superbly organized and has tremendous financial resources at its disposal. PK speakers are very capable communicators and seasoned motivators--their combined talents provide an amazing base for publicity and continued support.

The idea of filling a stadium with Christian men first came to Bill McCartney and Dave Wardell, Ph.D. in the summer of 1990 while they were on a three-hour car ride to a meeting of Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Later that year, 72 men began to pray and fast about the concept of thousands of men coming together for the purpose of Christian discipleship. 4,200 men met at the University of Colorado Events Center in 1991. At Folsom Stadium 22,000 met in 1992. Then 50,000 filled the Stadium to capacity in 1993. In 1994, seven sites nationwide brought a total attendance of 278,600 men. This year (1995) PK has scheduled 13 conferences across the country with an attendance of up to 750,000 projected. Next year they plan to have 1,000,000 men attend a rally in Washington, DC as a witness to the nation of God's power in the lives of men. The organization requires at least 175 full time staff members and a $22 million budget. 90-second "Promise Keepers Men in Action" spot announcements are aired daily on approximately 400 radio stations-FREE! Nearly every Christian Bookstore in the nation is promoting PK materials. It is an organization that has grown quickly and is expected to continue doing so. "Is it of God?" is an essential question that must be answered. If it is not, then Christians should not only avoid it but warn against it.

We do not believe PK is of God. We believe that it is dangerous to the cause of Christ. It is not easy to make these statements. Doing so is not the popular thing to do. Not very many are interested in sounding warnings these days. If PK is right about Roman Catholicism, Catholics are saved and there is no need to reach them with the Gospel. In fact, if PK is right about Roman Catholicism, all non-Catholic churches should merge and become one with Rome. There is no reason for separation if the Bible does not teach it!

Promise Keeper's stated goal is the unifying of all who love Jesus and claim to be born again, regardless of denominational affiliation. Such a passion for visible unity obligates them to refuse to stand up against the heresies of Rome. Their literature seems to accept the Roman Catholic system as legitimate: "One of the core values of Promise Keepers is honoring the pastors and priests of our local congregations." Acknowledging the legitimacy of Rome's priesthood is an act of treason to God and Scripture. It discredits the sufficiency and non-transferable nature of Christ's priesthood. Promise Keepers is playing right into the Vatican's hands as the "Mother Church". It is one of the latest and most subtle attempts to break down the Biblical differences between ecumenism and Biblical Christianity under the purpose of building strong men and families.

At the PK convention in Portland, while calling for the pastors to go forward for prayer. Bill McCartney, speaking to the pastors (including Roman Catholic priests). said: "We cannot rightly divide the word of truth. We need you to teach us." If this statement does not shock you, you need to check out how much you know and believe the Bible. Take a look at II Timothy 2:15. Take a look at the Bereans. who searched the Word daily to determine whether or not the teachings of Paul conformed. Why would McCartney boldly contradict Scripture like that? Could it be that he is promoting the philosophy of the Roman Catholic religion in which he was raised? PK's official policy on Roman Catholicism is basically one of "hands-off' toward evangelizing Roman Catholics.

McCartney said he thought that perhaps the Lord's main purpose for PK was to gather His clergy. All the pastors in attendance were asked to go down to the stage. The crowd sang and yelled for ten minutes while about 3,000 pastors (treated like celebrities) made their way to the front. McCartney had them hold up their hands to the crowd and a blessing was pronounced on the people. (This sounds innocent enough until one realizes the unlikelihood of all those clergy being saved. This would include Catholic priests as well as others. I don't know about you. but I'm not interested in being "blessed" by 3.000 clergyman. Perhaps the majority of those men were Charismatic and in serious doctrinal error and likely involved in demonic deception.) The possibility of spreading demonic spirits in this fashion is not to be lightly considered. But that is not all. The pastors then knelt for prayer and a confession of sin, for not carrying out their office faithfully and "putting up barriers on account of denominational dogma" Imagine praying for forgiveness for being a pastor who is not doctrinally indifferent! There was waving of thousands of hats in the stadium and a screaming liturgy of the crowd "we love you," and the pastors responding "we love you."

Should one not denounce an organization whose key speakers make unscriptural statements which ;are not corrected? Note the following:

"Whether your tradition celebrates. ..Eucharist, the Mass, or the Lord's Supper, we are all called to this centerpiece of Christian worship." --Dr. Jack Hayford.

"I believe Jesus was phallic with all the inherent phallic passions we experience as men. . .If temptation means anything, it means Christ was tempted in every way as we are. That would mean not only heterosexual temptation but also homosexual temptation!" --Robert Hicks, author of The Masculine Journey (This book was distributed to each man who attended the 1993 convention in Colorado.) One wonders at the seeming, tolerance of homosexuality within the leadership/teaching ranks of PK (See I Cor 5:9-11 and 6:9, 10.)

"What I know is that Almighty God wants to bring Christian men together regardless of their ethnic origin. denominational background, or style of worship. There's only one criterion for this kind of unity: to love Jesus and be born of the Spirit of God. Can we look one another in the eye-black, white, red. brown, yellow. Baptist, Presbyterian. Assemblies of God, Catholic, and so on--and get together on this common ground: "We believe in salvation through Christ alone, and we have made Him the Lord of our lives'? Is that not the central unifying reality of our existence? And if it is, can we not focus on that and call each other brothers instead of always emphasizing our differences? Men, we have to get together on this!" --Bill McCartney (Note the contradiction concerning the necessity of believing in salvation through Christ alone-and then including Roman Catholics as "brothers" in spite of the fact that they do not believe in salvation through Christ alone, adding sacraments and good works as requirements for salvation on one hand and on the other hand teaching that anyone who is sincere and good. Christian, pagan, or atheist, will go to heaven.) Throughout the centuries, the Roman Catholic religion has been an enemy of all true believers and the blood of hundreds of thousands, even millions of martyrs is upon its' hands. However, for the past few decades, the Roman Catholic Church has changed its outward appearance and approaches. It has a new face of tolerance and a kindlier public image. But the damnable heresies it proclaims remain as dangerous as ever. Furthermore, those who are only familiar with Roman Catholicism, as practiced in America, would not believe the raw heathenism which is part of their worship in other countries where they have been in control for centuries. It should be of great concern to every Biblical Christian to know that the PK movement is taught and led by men who blindly praise the Pope and are giving Roman Catholicism an undeserved and unwarranted vote of confidence and even appreciation instead of sounding the warnings God's Word commands.

Key speakers also include Dr. E.V. Hill, pastor of Mount Zion Missionary Baptist in Los Angeles and member of the NCC. He is a member of the Los Angeles NAACP, Southern Christian Leadership Conference (which sponsored the Gay Rights march on Washington in the summer of 1993), Los Angeles Urban League, and Billy Graham Association. He has been a guest speaker on various charismatic and new-evangelical platforms including Kenneth Hagin's Rhema Center. Another key speaker is Evangelist Louis Palau, internationally known as "the Billy Graham of South America". He cooperates with new-evangelicals, liberals, apostates, Roman Catholics, and charismatics (including the most radical fringe).

Since the ministry of PK teachers runs the gamut from compromising new-evangelicalism and charismatic error, to ecumenical liberalism, it is clear that they will be introducing their followers to unscriptual doctrines and fellowships. This is a very serious matter.

Promise Keepers is a charismatic led organization that was started by members of John Wimber's Vineyard Fellowship. It has been reported that these people have a tendency to infiltrate and split or take over existing churches. According to Roman Catholic Charismatic Magazine New Covenant, John Wimber is a "Protestant leader who is inspired by the Blessed Virgin." From the time it first started, Christian fundamentalists have considered Vineyard Fellowship to be a cult. Some of John Wimber's teachings are: Christians can be possessed by devils; inner healing: aura reading and manipulation: astral projection (out of body experiences); contact with familiar spirit; the Excluded Middle (a layer of reality which is not part of the Western World-view). A September 1994 Issue of Charisma magazine pointed out that John Wimber and his Vineyard churches have been swept up by the strange incidents of "holy laughter" or "laughing revivals" effecting thousands of churches throughout the world These are meetings where people (sometimes nearly everyone attending) fall to the floor ("slain in the Spirit"), then they lie on the floor for long periods of time laughing hysterically (uncontrollably). Oral Roberts heralded the "laughing revivals" as an "arrival of another level in the Holy Spirit." Vineyard churches have been among the leading supporters of this movement which no one in the "Spirit-filled" community is aggressively opposing. We believe it is entirely possible that these are demons mocking God!

"Seven solid promises that will change a man's life forever." This is the bold claim printed on the back jacket of Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper, published in 1994 by Focus on the Family and distributed in the USA and Canada by Word Books. It is the key to understanding what Promise Keepers is trying to do. These seven promises are not solidly based upon the sure foundation of God's Word alone, but upon a mixture of God's Word and the suppositions of men. The promises are for a man and his God, his mentors, his integrity, his family, his church, his brothers, and his world. They sound good on the surface, but when seen through the eyes of the contributing authors, they become dangerous. The major dangers of the PK movement include:

Twisting, mis-applying, and mis-interpreting Scripture.

Advocacy of unscriptural religious unity at the expense of sound doctrine and practice.

Acceptance and promotion of unscriptural Charismatic teachings.

Approval and use of psychological approaches and techniques.

Much of PK's success, humanly speaking, seems to be attributed to a few prominent individuals such as Bill Bright (Campus Crusade for Christ, whose staffs in Poland and Southern Ireland are mostly, if not all, Roman Catholic), and psychologists Dr. Gary Smalley and Dr. James Dobson (Focus on the Family) who have given their whole-hearted endorsement. Those who actually take the Promise Keepers program into the churches are called Point Men and Ambassadors. Point Men are the primary contacts with the churches that inform the congregations of upcoming conferences, training seminars and resources, and organize the promotion of PK conferences. Ambassadors introduce Promise Keepers to the churches in the community and recruit Point Men. A stated goal is to target men of all denominations and ethnic groups who desire to promote personal integrity and moral accountability. We've been told that another goal is to have a PK in every church! Many who have already joined this group are now bent on recruiting new members, with fully as much zeal and pressure, as sports-minded college alumni men seek to recruit top athletes for sports programs.

Are we who dare to criticize a movement such as Promise Keepers being nit-picky? Why not take advantage of the good in PK and ignore all the negatives? Does the end justify the means? The key men in PK are role models who habitually engage in compromise and violate Scriptural teaching. What message are they sending to their followers? They use pop psychology, rock music, and worldly entertainers. Men who may be reached through PK will not be steered into sound Bible churches. They will not be taught to separate from apostasy and heresy, nor will they be trained in discerning false gospels. They will be instructed in unscriptural ecumenism, taught that doctrine is not crucial, and that being militant for truth is unspiritual and unloving. They will be encouraged to accept even apostate denominations as genuine expressions of Christianity. For believers to participate in PK is compromise. No, to speak out is not nit-picky. It's essential!

Along with other Christian fundamentalists, we do not hesitate to give the strongest possible warning concerning the dangers of the Promise Keepers movement The pressure to follow the crowd and silence the voice of scriptural reproof is growing. We believe there are many faithful pastors who, in the past have taken a stand against all ecumenical endeavors who are now being lured, even pressured into the Promise Keepers program. How can pastors deal with undoubtedly well-meaning, yet misled, men within their own churches who are now exerting pressure for them to fall into line with the program? Up until now pastors could herald a warning against Romanism, liberalism, ecumenism. the charismatic delusion, and the like without reservation. But now they have men within the flock who are introducing the people to all of these and more under the attractive packaging--Promise Keepers! "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."--Matt 7:15. "Reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine, for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." --II Tim 4:2-4. "Speaking the truth in love. . ." -Eph 4:15.

Pray for Christian men, including pastors, to have the discernment and courage to expose this dangerous movement and to stand against it in defense of true Biblical faith and practice. These are indeed perilous times. We must stand fast and "earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints."--Jude 3.

--We have taken the liberty to use information extensively from Foundation Magazine, O Timothy, The Christian News, and The Perilous Times as a basis for this article. Please take the time to read what these publications have put out on this important subject.

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AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

Gee maybe you all are right . We should avoid any large groups of people who want to gather together for the purpose of Praising the Lord , Teaching the Word , and Leading others to Christ .

We should all sit here at our computers and spread nasty uninformed rumors about those who participate in such evil sinister gatherings .

Afterall , we are the only ones who can be the True Beleivers huh ?

All those men at promise keepers are just there for the fun of being with others . They don't really want to seek the Lord .They just want to feel good , right ? WRONG !!

I find it downright disgusting that fellow Christians would spread such rumors about such a fine organization .

PK is not the WCC . I have no love for the WCC . BUT just because members of the WCC may be there , does not mean it is run by the WCC , so that implication is erronious .

I have to get to work , so I will lay off for now . But if you want to play later , great . Be prepared though . It ain't my first rodeo .

--------------------
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15

posted

BHL:

I want to thank you for posting this article. I hope that all will take the time to read it in its entirity. I have read a lot of PK slaming that I dismissed as just so much garbage, but this article is well written and seeks to point out the important truth rather than beating ones chest screaming witch... if you know what I mean.

My husband attended a PK meeting 2 years ago and it was good. The teaching was good and relevant.

I think men need male friendship, leadership, support, encouragement, and discipleship. Our churches are so devoid of true discipleship even down to the pastors not providing it. Society and its day to day demands isolate men robb them of time to fellowship on God. So PK looks inviting, and yes as your article states lives have been changed for the good at these events.

The Holy Spirit will and does work in the hearts of men, whereever he choses!

But more importantly, we cannot clothes our eyes to what we commit our time, finances, and more importantly our mind to. The current move toward ecumenism is DEADLY dangerous. ETERNALY dangerous. And it is everywhere! We who see this evil for what it is are few. But let us remeber that many are called. but few are chosen!

The Bride is going to be those who have not followed any but Christ. Who have heard only His voice and not been deceived.

Thinking of the 10 virgins; we must understand that ALL TEN were VIRGINS; ALL TEN were waiting for the Groom. Only 1/2 had taken with them the oil to POWER their lamps.

The ecumenical movement denies the POWER, denies the HOLY SPIRIT. A form of Godliness but denying the Power. Looking and seeming even to themselves righteous, but not by the Power of the Spirit, but by the power of self.

The WCC is a dangerous thing; I believe the religious Arm of the Antichrist Himself. There will be a polical and a religious arm (the Mother of Harlots)to the goverment that is the Beast on which she rides. Babylon the religious harlot rides upon a beast (government) the head of which is the Antichrist. That is how I see it, and brother it is here now! I don't know what it will look like when the man of sin is revealed and I don't care because I will not be here, but the infrastructure is lining up day by day at a rate that blows my mind!

Your message is a Word in Due Season, my friend, and I know you were in pain to write it, but we have to see the BIG picture and the spiritual warfare that is going on just out of our sight.

The church is steeped in and obsessed with things that are thought to be OK, tolerated, accepted, and even encouraged and promoted that are NOT OK, Not because they they or it is sin in itself, but because what lies hidden is the spirit behind the activity or organization, and it is not the Spirit of God!

Paul was troubled by the silversmiths that made idols of Artimus (if I remember correctly)they were mad because his converstion of so many cut into their business. Now amazingly Alexander who was one of the smiths, a copersmith was also part of the church, because Paul said he gave him over to Satan. (excommunicated him) Surely Alexander saw his work as his work, he saw no reason why he couldnt join the church and make idols that people bought to worship Artimus. There is nothing to say he worshiped this idol, but he eaned his living from the evil of others.

We have no fellowship with evil, we must know what we are involved in, who we are involved with, even what our money supports. If our deeds, fellowships, purchases, what ever support the work of the evil one we must not participate.

The Antichrist will require his worship before we be able to even buy and sell. This should be a hint to us that even those actiities are either acts of worshiping God Almighty or the enemy.

If you attend PK, buy their books and CD's go to their meetings. You Buy the work of PK which is ecuminism. Your good intentions, right heart, desire for God do not change this. Our God is not a God of unity look what christ said:

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Nor is our God a God of ecuminism. He is a Jealous God, and there is ONE way. The only unity is to be of His Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

If you see these things, it is because God wants you to speak it, for many are blind. You will be called a legalist and much worse. Just this week I have been called a legalist, and a racist right here on this board! But ya know what? You know, I know, and God knows that is not true. So, I thank God, because I must be doing something to rattle the chains of the enemy or he would not be bothering me! Be thankful and as David says Plow On... Plow On

Peace be unto you my friend!

Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Hey all,

The following can be found in its completion @

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1171.cfm

How could any Christian be so naive? How could God possibly allow His children to contribute to the plans of Satan? The problem lies in a lack of adherence to the doctrines of the Word of God. When a man is born-again, he does not mystically become immune to deception. It is the man’s responsibility to "draw nigh unto God" (James 4:8). This is accomplished by studying and taking heed to the precepts of the Word of God. A Christian must study to become established in Bible Doctrine (II Tim. 2:15). DOCTRINE is the key to discernment and fighting deception. Curiously, even the "Evangelical Church" of today is subordinating the teaching of doctrine to social issues, psychological development, cultural crises, worship and praise, and practically every other pseudo-spiritual "ism" or study imaginable. This course of events has resulted in a generation of Christians who have no clue as to what they believe or how to recognize heresy. Since so many are facing this dilemma, they have become easy prey for deception which comes "gift-wrapped" in a religious package. To fully understand the ramifications of this deception, the building of the One World Church, and the organizations involved in its establishment, one must look back to the year, 1948.

The modern downward spiral to religious apostasy began with two very significant events in 1948. On May 14,1948, the nation of Israel was reborn. Never before in the history of mankind has any dispersed nation been re-established in the same territory after an absence of in excess of 1000 years. The rebirth of Israel can only be attributed to the direct working of the hand of God. This rebirth signaled the start of the final countdown to the "end of the age". In his book, Jerusalem, a Cup of Trembling, Dave Hunt explains that the last days prior to the return of Christ will be marked by the following:

" Israel in the ‘Promised Land’

The Church in decline

Growing apostasy

The Church finally removed" (1)

If this line of reasoning is followed through to fruition, the influence of the nation of Israel on world events must increase, while the influence of the Church must decrease.

This scenario has been aided by the second significant event of 1948—the formation of the World Council of Churches. The WCC was formed in Amsterdam with 147 protestant denominations (today there are 307) (2). The organization’s goal was clearly stated at its inaugural meeting (August 1948) by General Secretary of the WCC, W.A. Visser’t Hooft :

"…there can be and there is finally only one church of Christ on earth…we are aware of the situation, that we do not accept it passively, that we move forward towards the manifestation of the ONE HOLY CHURCH." (3)

(Lest any misunderstand, the Universal Church certainly does exist. This is the "Body of Christ", consisting of all those who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus. However, this Universal Church DOES NOT include every member of every church and/or religion. This "Body" also DOES NOT include those who merely claim Christianity but have never experienced the new birth.) The opposite view of the WCC has been correctly conveyed by Dr. David Cloud:

"We could describe the error of the WCC under a number of categories. We could speak of its Doctrinal Heresy, its Modernism….Universalism. The simple fact is that the WCC fails every Biblical test which could be applied. It is patently and grossly unscriptural." (4)

Though the Roman Catholic Church is not officially a member of the WCC, the Vatican has worked very closely with the WCC since the "Ecumenical Movement" of the 1960s (The Ecumenical Movement was a failed effort to reunite mainline protestants with the "Mother Church"). Dr. Edward Panosian, chairman of the Department of History at Bob Jones University, stated,

"Rome’s conception of the ecumenical movement is the joining of all churches- eventually all religions- to Rome. Rome does not join the WCC. She invites the WCC to join her…." (5)

other sources @

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/stuart/promise1.htm

http://incolor.inetnebr.com/stuart/promise2.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/special/spec0001.htm

http://www.wayoflife.org/otimothy/tl10001c.htm

http://withchrist.org/VPK.htm

becauseHElives

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

PK wants people of All beliefs to come to the conferences , true . But not to be in agreement with them , but to show them the one and only way to Salvation --- Jesus Christ . I have personally witnessed Thousands and Thousands of Men give their Lives to Christ at PK . Never have I seen an "alter call " to just change ones life in the name of whatever god one chooses . It has been , and always will be with PK a 100% focus on Jesus Christ ALONE as King of Kings and Lord Of Lords .

--------------------
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87

posted

Ray,

My computer is needing prayer, [Big Eyes]

This thing truly is working patience in me, if anyone can relate.

The "Promise Keepers" are not what they seem, most of the men in PK are honest men seeking to please THE LORD in all their ways, but the organization itself promotes the spirit of the ecuminacal movement, trying for the sake of unity to draw everyone together, regardless of the WORD.

"There is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the end there of is destruction."

It looks good on the outside, but inside it is full of dead mens bones.

I will look up sources and post when I get this machine running in good order.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/pk/pk-fea.htm

becauseHElives

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

AhmaBeliever
Advanced Member
Member # 43

posted

If you sincerely want to know what Promise Keepers is all about , just go to a conference . I have been to 5 of them in the past 8 years , and have never been disappointed . But that is my opinion . Don't let that affect your decision . Just go if you really want to know . It sure won't harm you . It may help your walk with Christ .It may not . But I guarantee it won't hurt.

The bottom line is in the name of the "movement" --- PROMISE KEEPERS . It is about keeping promises , to God , to our Families , to our fellow brothers ( and sisters ) in Christ , and to ourselves . What does that amount to in a nutshell ? A Christian Mans Personal Responsibility . So that is why I say it is up to you to find out what PK is all about .

--------------------
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Posts: 81 | From: Georgetown , Kentucky | Registered: Jun 2002 | IP: Logged |

ray
Advanced Member
Member # 264

posted

Hi everyone! I was wondering what people on this site think about the Promise Keepers movement? I find it to be almost cult like. Our pastor quietly promotes this program and I am not comfy with it. I read other posts on this board regarding self worship instead of church... it seems to be more appealing. I am truly searching for the Lord and want to bring my young family up on the right path. Thanks. Ray

Posts: 22 | From: minnesota | Registered: Aug 2002 | IP: Logged |

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