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Author Topic: Extreme Sovereignty of God is a very harmful Heresy!
Carol Swenson
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And that's a different topic. A complicated topic actually. To understand Foreknowledge and Election, we need to understand all the terminology involved as it was originally written in Greek, and we need to take into account all of the attributes of God, and we need to remember all of the other things involved in salvation such as faith and repentance and so on. It's much more complicated than just saying that God chose people or people chose God. Yes, please, a new topic.

Or, we could look at what has already been posted on this topic:

http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008057;p=1

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GISMYS13A
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GOD knows by His foreknowledge those who will chose to believe and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.We believers are predestinated according to the foreknowledge of God which allows our freewill and God's sovereignty over time GOD counts we believers as His elect and we are predestinated by God, to be sons of God, because He knows of our choice(God is outside time) to believe and accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. The unbeliever, GOD knows by His foreknowledge will chose to reject God and God's love and they are predestioned to go to hell because of their choice to reject GOD.

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GISMYS13A

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Carol Swenson
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I could probably go Googling and learn some of the people teaching it, but the point here is that it is in fact a false teaching. Hyper-Calvinism and Extreme Sovereignty as taught by Hyper-Calvinists are false teachings.

I just hope GISMY understands that not all Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism. Remember back in May I posted this chart? Note that 'Extreme Calvinism' is NOT 'hyper-Calvinism'.

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Bloodbought
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Thanks for the insight.

I don’t believe any of that could or should be called Calvinism. It’s not the teaching of Calvin. It seems to be a false doctrine that some individuals have contrived and presented it as Calvinism. I don’t think there are many who hold to it or teach it, not that I know of anyway.

Do you know of anyone who teaches it?

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Carol Swenson
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Yes, it does.

Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, clarifies:

“The distortion of double predestination looks like this: There is a symmetry that exists between election and reprobation. God WORKS in the same way and same manner with respect to the elect and to the reprobate. That is to say, from all eternity God decreed some to election and by divine initiative works faith in their hearts and brings them actively to salvation. By the same token, from all eternity God decrees some to sin and damnation (destinare ad peccatum) and actively intervenes to work sin in their lives, bringing them to damnation by divine initiative. In the case of the elect, regeneration is the monergistic work of God. In the case of the reprobate, sin and degeneration are the monergistic work of God.

Stated another way, we can establish a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry. We can call this a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation. In the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.

This distortion of positive-positive predestination clearly makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly coerces man to do. Such a view is indeed a monstrous assault on the integrity of God. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism.

Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers.”

Here is an article from the Spurgeon Archives that may be of interest to you. It was written by a 5 point Calvinist on the alarming trend of Hyper-Calvinism.

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/hypercal.htm

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Bloodbought
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Again I agree with that article, but it doesn’t address the OP that you re-posted and you said was correct.

Does Hyper-Calvinism teach that God is the author of evil?

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Carol Swenson
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Bloodbought, the expression "Extreme Sovereignty" is related to Hyper-Calvinism. I know you are a Calvinist, but I don't think you are a hyper Calvinist. You wrote:

quote:
Some see the Holy Spirit only at work in salvation, but fail to see mans responsibility. Others see only mans responsibility, but fail to see the work of the Holy Spirit.
The work of the Holy Spirit and mans responsibility are two sides of the one coin.

What is hyper-Calvinism and is it biblical?

A simple definition is this: hyper-Calvinism is the belief that God saves the elect through His sovereign will with little or no use of the methods of bringing about salvation (such as evangelism, preaching, and prayer for the lost). To an unbiblical fault, the hyper-Calvinist over-emphasizes God's sovereignty and under-emphasizes man's responsibility in the work of salvation.

An obvious ramification of hyper-Calvinism is that it suppresses any desire to evangelize the lost. Most churches or denominations that hold to hyper-Calvinistic theology are marked by fatalism, coldness, and a lack of assurance of faith. There is little emphasis upon God's love for the lost and His own people but rather an unbiblical preoccupation with God's sovereignty, His election of the saved, and His wrath for the lost. The gospel of the hyper-Calvinist is a declaration of God's salvation of the elect and His damnation of the lost.

The Bible clearly teaches that God is sovereign over the entire universe (Daniel 4:34-35), including the salvation of men (Ephesians 1:3-12). But with God's sovereignty, the Bible also teaches that His motivation for saving the lost is love (Ephesians 1:4-5; John 3:16; 1 John 4:9-10) and that God's means of saving the lost is the proclamation of His Word (Romans 10:14-15). The Bible also declares that the Christian is to be passionate and determined in his/her sharing with unbelievers; as ambassadors for Christ, we are to "beg" people to be reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:20-21).

Hyper-Calvinism takes a biblical doctrine, God’s sovereignty, and pushes it to an unbiblical extreme. In doing so, the hyper-Calvinist downplays the love of God and the necessity of evangelism.

http://www.gotquestions.org/hyper-calvinism.html

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Bloodbought
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I totally agree with what you say Carol, but I would say if God is in total control of everything He is extremely sovereign.

God allows evil, yes. He allowed sin and He allowed a way to be saved from sin. Unless extreme sovereignty means that God drives the devil into someone just to have the pleasure of driving him out again.

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Carol Swenson
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God does control how much evil is allowed.

In Eden, Satan was permitted to be there and to tempt Eve, but nothing more. From the following sample verses, we see that Satan and his demons cannot do what they want to without permission from God. Even then, God controls the amount of evil He allows. And God will still punish them for doing evil.

Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

Enmity, not total depravity, BTW. Satan is only allowed to harm, not destroy.

Job 1:12 (NASB)
12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD.

Satan is limited in what he is allowed to do.

Luke 22:31
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

Satan has to get permission to sift Peter.

Revelation 13:5
There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

Antichrist is GIVEN the abilities he will have, and his time is limited.

We know that in The New Heavens and Earth, Satan, the Antichrist, demons, and all wicked people will be in the lake of fire and never be allowed to do their evil again. But in this world, God allows some degree of evil and temptation.

To say that God allows evil to exist is NOT to say that anyone ever has to give in to temptation. If they do give in, they are allowed to repent and be forgiven.

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Bloodbought
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So has God no control over evil?

If not why did Jesus teach His Disciples to pray “deliver us from evil”?

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by GISMYS13A:
Extreme Sovereignty of God is a very harmful Heresy!
Extreme Sovereignty teaching tries to blame God for much of the evil in this world. God gave man rule on earth and it man's choice to reject God and God's love and live in sin that has brought sickness pain death and ruin to creation NOT God!

Amen. So GISMY is correct. Extreme Sovereignty is a false teaching.
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Bloodbought
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Amen

Human beings are incapable of finding truth without the Holy Spirit

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

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WildB
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Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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Bloodbought
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Yes, I believe that article is correct.

Some see the Holy Spirit only at work in salvation, but fail to see mans responsibility. Others see only mans responsibility, but fail to see the work of the Holy Spirit.
The work of the Holy Spirit and mans responsibility are two sides of the one coin.

Not all have the same view about Christ. Some see Him only as God while others see Him only as man, but the truth is He is both God and man. Sometimes He spoke and acted as God and at other times He spoke and acted as man.

So it is with salvation. There is the devine side and there is the human side, you cant have one without the other. A decision without the work of the Holy Spirit is usless and on the other hand if the Holy Spirit is striving and man fails to respond it is also usless.

Again the article is correct. God is sovereign and working everything according to His will and purpose. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this.

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Carol Swenson
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Am I right to assume that since you posted this, then you've read it and agree with it?
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Bloodbought
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I think we are seeing the same thing from two different perspectives.
Yes God is sovereign and saves those who He will, and yes, man must make a choice to repent and accept Christ.

Question: "Calvinism vs. Arminianism - which view is correct?"

Answer: Calvinism and Arminianism are two systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the matter of salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.

Both systems can be summarized with five points. Calvinism holds to the total depravity of man while Arminianism holds to partial depravity. Total depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin; therefore, human beings are unable to come to God on their own accord. Partial depravity states that every aspect of humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that human beings are unable to place faith in God of their own accord. Note - classical Arminianism rejects "partial depravity" and holds a view very close to Calvinistic "total depravity."

Calvinism includes the belief that election is unconditional, while Arminianism believes in conditional election. Unconditional election is the view that God elects individuals to salvation based entirely on His will, not on anything inherently worthy in the individual. Conditional election states that God elects individuals to salvation based on His foreknowledge of who will believe in Christ unto salvation, thereby on the condition that the individual chooses God.

Calvinism sees the atonement as limited, while Arminianism sees it as unlimited. This is the most controversial of the five points. Limited atonement is the belief that Jesus only died for the elect. Unlimited atonement is the belief that Jesus died for all, but that His death is not effectual until a person receives Him by faith.

Calvinism includes the belief that God’s grace is irresistible, while Arminianism says that an individual can resist the grace of God. Irresistible grace argues that when God calls a person to salvation, that person will inevitably come to salvation. Resistible grace states that God calls all to salvation, but that many people resist and reject this call.

Calvinism holds to perseverance of the saints while Arminianism holds to conditional salvation. Perseverance of the saints refers to the concept that a person who is elected by God will persevere in faith and will not permanently deny Christ or turn away from Him. Conditional salvation is the view that a believer in Christ can, of his/her own free will, turn away from Christ and thereby lose salvation. Note - many Arminians deny "conditional salvation" and instead hold to "eternal security."

So, in the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate, who is correct? It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views. Ultimately, it is our view that both systems fail in that they attempt to explain the unexplainable. Human beings are incapable of fully grasping a concept such as this. Yes, God is absolutely sovereign and knows all. Yes, human beings are called to make a genuine decision to place faith in Christ unto salvation. These two facts seem contradictory to us, but in the mind of God they make perfect sense.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism-vs-Arminianism.html

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
The unregenerate man is a slave to sin. Satan has filled his heart and he is ensnared and held captive by Satan and therefor; because Satan has him bound, he is powerless of his own free will to do anything to acquire his salvation. Indeed, He has no desire to be saved unless the Holy Spirit enlightens him. But if the Holy Spirit enlightens him, then Satan will try to resist the Holy Spirit while the person is under conviction and at the same time, try to convince him that he is good enough and to have nothing to do with Christ. It’s a battle for the soul, but if the person is elect all the powers of hell will not be able to resist the work of the Holy spirit in bringing him to repentance and faith.

I think that may have been true before Christ. God certainly did elect Noah and Abram and Moses, and others. And Satan did try to lead them astray and cause problems.

But things are different during this age of Grace. Satan has been defeated.

[Cross] [Cross] [Cross]

The Provision and Application of Reconciliation

God’s provision of reconciliation is universal. Because of the death of Christ the position of the world was changed—people were now able to be saved.

But that alone saves no one, for the ministry of reconciliation must be faithfully discharged by proclaiming the Gospel message. When an individual believes, then he receives the reconciliation God provided in Christ’s death (2 Cor. 5:18-21). The world has been reconciled, but people need to be reconciled. The universal reconciliation changes the position of the world from an unsalvable condition to a salvable one. Individual reconciliation through faith actually brings that reconciliation in the individual’s life and changes the position of the individual from unsaved to saved. Then, and only then, are his sins forgiven, though they were paid for on the cross.

[Man] has been reconciled with God because the reconciliation by God of sinful men to Himself, effected once and for all in Christ, has lasting effects. It is not applicable merely to one period or to one group of people, but to all the world. Whenever the word of reconciliation is proclaimed by those to whom God has committed it, and whenever it is appropriated by an individual sinner, whoever and wherever he may happen to be, that person is reconciled by God to Himself, and his reconciliation means that God no longer imputes to him his trespasses; i.e., He no longer counts his sins against him.

To summarize: The need for reconciliation lies in God’s enmity against sinful mankind. God took the initiative and reconciled the world to Himself. This was done by the death of Christ, and that provision changed the world into a savable position before God. Yet though the world has been reconciled, man needs to be reconciled by changing his position about Christ. Then, and only then, is his condition before God changed.

(Basic Theology: A Popular Systematic Guide to Understanding Biblical Truth)

[Cross] [Cross] [Cross]

The people of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. The Gospel has His power. The Lost ARE being led to the light everyday, all over the world. Satan is a defeated enemy, and every True Believer can reach the Lost despite Satan's efforts to blind them.

As far as the Elect, I think everyone could be considered "Elect" because God's provision through Christ is NOT limited. Everyone knows both good and evil. Everyone still has freedom of choice. Those things have never changed. But now, man can choose Christ. God has reconciled the whole world, and man can CHOOSE salvation. Man does not have to listen to Satan or be a slave to sin anymore. He has a CHOICE.

quote:
In our physical universe, the sun is always shining. We do not always see it, but the reason for that is that something has come between the sun and us. So it is with the gospel. The light of the gospel is always shining. God is always seeking to shine into the hearts of men. But Satan puts various barriers between unbelievers and God. It may be the cloud of pride, or of rebellion, or of self-righteousness, or any one of a hundred other things. But all of these serve effectively to hinder the light of the gospel from shining in. Satan simply does not want men to be saved.” Believer’s Bible Commentary.

True. But when we can't see the sun it's because of the rotation of the world. Wait awhile and the sun will rise again. An unbeliever who can't see the Light now can still be able to see it later in his life.
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Bloodbought
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Hi Carol,
All is well thanks.

You said,
quote:
You seem to be saying that man always seeks God's perfect will, but Satan turns him aside
Here is what I believe.
The unregenerate man is a slave to sin. Satan has filled his heart and he is ensnared and held captive by Satan and therefor; because Satan has him bound, he is powerless of his own free will to do anything to acquire his salvation. Indeed, He has no desire to be saved unless the Holy Spirit enlightens him. But if the Holy Spirit enlightens him, then Satan will try to resist the Holy Spirit while the person is under conviction and at the same time, try to convince him that he is good enough and to have nothing to do with Christ. It’s a battle for the soul, but if the person is elect all the powers of hell will not be able to resist the work of the Holy spirit in bringing him to repentance and faith.

“Satan is the culprit. He is here called the god of this age. He has succeeded in putting a veil over the minds of the unbelieving ones. He would keep them in perpetual darkness, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ … should shine on them that they might be saved.
In our physical universe, the sun is always shining. We do not always see it, but the reason for that is that something has come between the sun and us. So it is with the gospel. The light of the gospel is always shining. God is always seeking to shine into the hearts of men. But Satan puts various barriers between unbelievers and God. It may be the cloud of pride, or of rebellion, or of self-righteousness, or any one of a hundred other things. But all of these serve effectively to hinder the light of the gospel from shining in. Satan simply does not want men to be saved.” Believer’s Bible Commentary.

I agree that God is not the author of evil, but He allows evil to accomplish His sovereign plan and purpose. Evil is all around and there is no hope apart from the mercy of God. The glory of God is revealed by the accomplishment of the redemption there is through Christ.

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Carol Swenson
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Hi Bloodbought! It's been awhile since we've talked. I hope all is well with you. I still want to challenge your point of view though.

You said:

quote:
Man does not resist the Holy Spirit of his own volition. The devil is the one who does the resisting.

You seem to be saying that man always seeks God's perfect will, but Satan turns him aside.

That statement disagrees with your belief in TULIP, especially total depravity. It disagrees with Calvin too.


What is the origin of sin?

The age-old question of where and how sin began has been explored and debated by some of the greatest minds of history, yet no one can give a completely definitive or satisfying answer. Some, quoting Isaiah 45:7, seek to make God the author of sin: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (KJV). However, the KJV’s word evil, from the original Hebrew rah, is better translated as “calamity.” The context of this passage concerns God’s sovereignty over natural disasters. God is sovereign over all things (Exodus 4:11), but He is not the author of sin (1 John 1:5; cf. James 1:13). He hates sin (Proverbs 8:13). Moral evil originated with the creature, not the Creator.

John Calvin wrote, “The Lord had declared that ‘everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good’ [Genesis 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation, God had put His stamp of approval on what had come forth from himself. By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction. Accordingly, we should contemplate the evident cause of condemnation in the corrupt nature of humanity—which is closer to us—rather than seek a hidden and utterly incomprehensible cause in God's predestination” [Institutes, 3:23:8]. In other words, sin was not part of the original creation, nor was it decreed by the Creator’s will.

The first man, Adam, sinned, and his transgression spiraled mankind into sin, but this was not sin’s origin. Ezekiel 28:13-15 speaks figuratively of Satan, who was originally created without flaw, as all things created by God were. Verse 15 gives us a hint as to the origin of sin: “You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.” Isaiah 14:12-14 further indicates that Satan (Lucifer) sinned in his pride and his coveting of God’s throne. When he rebelled against God, Satan was ejected from heaven (Ezekiel 28:15-17; cf. 1 Timothy 3:6).

Which brings us to the question, how did evil manifest itself in a perfect creature? It may be good to mention that evil is not a created thing—it is not a creature and has no independent being. Also, evil has no standard as goodness does; it is a lack, a deficiency, a falling short of the standard of God’s perfect goodness. All sin, no matter how trivial it may seem, falls short of moral perfection. God is always consistent with His perfect nature (Deuteronomy 32:4). All sin, therefore, must come from the creature, and the desire for evil comes from within the creature (James 1:14-15). Sin was “found” in Lucifer because of a choice that angel made to seek something other than what God had chosen for him. Any time we seek “other” than God’s choice, we sin.

To say sin originated within God’s creatures does not mean God was surprised or caught unaware by it. Although God did not bring about sin, He certainly allowed it or it would not exist, since God is sovereign over all things. It’s true that He could have prevented sin, but that would have meant stripping His creation of its free will (Daniel 4:17; cf. Psalm 33:10-11). All His ways are good. In Him is “no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5), and He is right now working all things for His good pleasure (Romans 8:28; cf. Isaiah 46:9-10).

The mystery of evil and why God has allowed its reality with all of the suffering it causes may never be fully known in this world, but Scripture assures that evil is temporary. Once the culmination of God’s redemptive plan is complete, Jesus Christ will have destroyed the devil’s work forever (1 John 3:8).

http://www.gotquestions.org/origin-of-sin.html


quote:
It is impossible for the devil to hinder the salvation of the elect, who God has sovereignly chosen to save.

It is equally impossible for anyone to choose to be saved because the devil will succeed in resisting anyone except Jesus.

We need to understand our position in Christ. This is what Satan wants to keep from us. The demonic realm has authority in this physical world; the demonic authority is subject to the authority we have in Christ. Like Daniel, we have power of the heavenly realms, which Satan and his fallen angels cannot resist. Jesus let the disciples go forward in his power, as a demonstration to us about the power we have. Our [good works] and prayers advance the kingdom of God on Satan’s territory, held under demonic authority. In Matthew 28:18-19, Christ gives us the authority to advance the Gospel on earth. This is the secret the enemy wants to keep from us, he wants us to live in defeat so the Gospel can’t be advanced.

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen. Matthew 28:18-20


The Bible is clear; Satan is fighting from a position of defeat. He cannot defeat God no matter how hard he tries. Satan is a fallen angel, created by an all-powerful God. Jesus at the cross defeated Satan. Since that is the case, why does Satan still fight?

Satan’s goal is the destruction of humanity; he knows his judgment is coming. He knows what salvation is, and what the saved have in store. So his goal is simple, to prevent humanity from coming to salvation. All his efforts have this one goal in mind, preventing the salvation of man.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 2 Corinthians 4:3-4


Remember from the beginning, Satan has tried to prevent the coming of the Messiah, who would save humanity. Now the Messiah, Jesus Christ has arrived, He has paid for sins, eternity is offered to lost humanity. Satan’s plan is to prevent the message of salvation from reaching the lost, since he can no longer prevent salvation. Satan has two distinct strategies, one for the lost, the other for the saved.

For the lost its simple, keep people lost, prevent them from seeing the Gospel. For the saved, it’s a little more complex. When someone is saved, they are now a threat. A saved person is walking dynamite, as far as Satan and the fallen angels are concerned. Jesus has given us authority over the demonic realms, in his name.

Satan’s goal for the saved is to keep them in a defeated, ineffective mindset. When the saved are defeated and distracted, they cannot advance the Kingdom of God.

Complete article at
http://www.truthnet.org/Spiritual-warfare/4Satanswar/Satans-war.htm

quote:
Notice that neither of these men wanted Jesus to deliver them, but He did it anyway.
I think those men were being tormented beyond belief, and they were extremely grateful to be delivered!

God is Sovereign. Of course God is Sovereign. He created everything; He owns it all. I wouldn't even be able to create one single living cell - they are SO complex. Amazing. And a star? Imagine creating a perfect engine that works century after century after century giving consistent light and warmth using the simple principle of fusion. The universe is full of galaxies that in turn are full of stars. God's creation is so filled with marvels and miracles, there is no question that He is Sovereign.

BUT, God gave man rule (dominion) over the earth and the creatures of the earth.

Genesis 1:27-28 (NASB)
27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

And God gave man choice, and the consequences of his choice.

Genesis 2:16-17 (NASB)
16 The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

After the man sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, the dominion of the earth passed to Satan.

John 14:30 (NASB)
30 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me;

But after the man sinned by eating the forbidden fruit, he did NOT become totally deprived. And he still had choice.

Genesis 3:22-23 (NASB)
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

You see? The man knew good as well as evil. And he still had the choice to eat from the Tree of Life until God banished him from Eden.

Today people still know both good and evil. And people still have the choice to eat from the Tree of Life when they choose to believe in our Lord Jesus Christ. Praise God, our mighty Savior is the Light shining in the darkness, the Light whosoever will is free to come to!!!!

This world is Satan's dominion, and he blinds people from the truth with glamor and riches, or everyday concerns, or pain and hardship, or in any other way he can. But we are the people of Christ, stronger than Satan, and we advance the kingdom of God when we lead people to Christ.

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Bloodbought
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Man does not resist the Holy Spirit of his own volition. The devil is the one who does the resisting.

Let us consider an example of the sovereignty of God and the resistance of the devil from scripture.

In Mark 4 and 5 and in Luke 8 Jesus was by the Sea of Galilee teaching His disciples and He said to them “Let us pass over unto the other side.” He didn’t say why, but his intention was to meet a madman of Gadara with an unclean spirit. Why? It was God’s sovereign will because he was one of the elect.

However, when they were out on the sea, Jesus was asleep in the back of the boat and a storm blew up and filled the ship until it was evidently about to sink. The disciples wakened Jesus and said to Him, do you not care if we perish? Jesus said “peace be still, Mark 4:39” and there was a great calm, which meant they were able to arrive safely on the other side.

When they got to the other side, the madman saw Jesus and came running to Him and worshiped Him And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit, Mark 5:7-8.

The unclean spirits were allowed to enter a herd of 2000 swine, which ran down into the sea and were choked and the man was found sitting clothed and in his right mind.

In Mark 1:23-25 there was another man who had the same experience.

Mark 1:23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
25 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him.

The word translated “Hold thy peace” and come out of him in Mark, 1:25 is the same Greek word as the word translated “peace be still” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm, Mark 4:39.

The devil was doing his best to resist Jesus from getting to the other side to bring peace to the demon possessed man. He tried to sink the boat, but at the command of Jesus to be still he was compelled to give it up.

When Jesus reached the demon-possessed man and cast the demons out of him into the herd of swine, they were drowned in the sea.

It is impossible for the devil to hinder the salvation of the elect, who God has sovereignly chosen to save.

It is equally impossible for anyone to choose to be saved because the devil will succeed in resisting anyone except Jesus.

Notice that neither of these men wanted Jesus to deliver them, but He did it anyway.

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Carol Swenson
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John MacArthur

If God is sovereign, is He responsible for evil? Is God responsible for evil?

No. Scripture says that when God finished His creation, He saw everything and declared it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: "God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33)-and if that is true, He cannot in any way be the author of evil.

Occasionally someone will quote Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) and claim it proves God made evil as a part of His creation: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (emphasis added).

But the New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: "There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil.

Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature.

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TB125
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Any god that does not have supreme sovereignty cannot be a god. If there is some being that has any power over a god, that being should logically considered to be supreme.

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Bob

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Carol Swenson
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"But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, ..." Luke 7:30.

"[God] is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time." 1 Timothy 2:3-6

All agree that God is not divided; we deny that God works at cross purposes with Himself. If people displease God, bring on God’s wrath, successfully resisting God’s revealed will, because God sovereignly chose that they should do so in His secret will, how then does God not disagree with what He decrees?

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Bloodbought
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quote:
Originally posted by GISMYS13A:
Calvinism =Extreme Sovereignty of God is a very harmful Heresy! IMHO. If people think it is God sends sickness to teach or humble people then why do they go to doctor and take meds?? Why are they fighting against God's will for them?

John 12:36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

They would not believe v 37

Therefore

They could not believe v 39

Therefore

They should not believe and be healed v 40

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WildB
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1 Peter 4
1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

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That is all.....

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GISMYS13A
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Calvinism =Extreme Sovereignty of God is a very harmful Heresy! IMHO. If people think it is God sends sickness to teach or humble people then why do they go to doctor and take meds?? Why are they fighting against God's will for them?

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GISMYS13A

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Betty Louise
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26
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If you were to look up the word “sovereign” in the dictionary, you would find words and phrases like “superior,” “greatest,” “supreme in power and authority,” “ruler,” and “independent of all others” in its definition. But the way I like to explain God’s sovereignty best is simply to say, “God is in control.”
There is absolutely nothing that happens in the universe that is outside of God’s influence and authority. As King of kings and Lord of lords, God has no limitations. Consider just a few of the claims the Bible makes about God:
God is above all things and before all things. He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. He is immortal, and He is present everywhere so that everyone can know Him (Revelation 21:6).
God created all things and holds all things together, both in heaven and on earth, both visible and invisible (Colossians 1:16).
God knows all things past, present, and future. There is no limit to His knowledge, for God knows everything completely before it even happens (Romans 11:33).
God can do all things and accomplish all things. Nothing is too difficult for Him, and He orchestrates and determines everything that is going to happen in your life, in my life, in America, and throughout the world. Whatever He wants to do in the universe, He does, for nothing is impossible with Him (Jeremiah 32:17).
God is in control of all things and rules over all things. He has power and authority over nature, earthly kings, history, angels, and demons. Even Satan himself has to ask God’s permission before he can act (Psalm 103:19).
That’s what being sovereign means. It means being the ultimate source of all power, authority, and everything that exists. Only God can make those claims; therefore, it’s God’s sovereignty that makes Him superior to all other gods and makes Him, and Him alone, worthy of worship.
Just as peasants always bowed before their king for fear of offending the one who had the authority to take their life, God’s sovereignty compels us to bow before Him. But unlike corrupt earthly kings who abuse their authority to terrorize their subjects, God rules in love. He loves you and wants the best for you.
Romans 8:28 promises that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, who have been called according to His purpose.

That’s an amazing promise not only because it demonstrates that an all-powerful God cares about you and me, but because it cannot be fulfilled unless the One Who gives it is all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful, and all-loving. The promise itself is a testimony to God’s sovereignty.
But God makes that promise, and millions throughout history have testified to its truth because God has proven His ability to back it up time and time again.
Think about the implications of that promise. Because God is sovereign and He loves you, nothing will ever come into your life that He does not either decree or allow. Consequently, no matter what you face in life, you can take comfort in the fact that God is sovereign.
Answer taken from Why do You Worship God? written and used by Chip Ingram (c) 2004. Click here to read the entire article.

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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GISMYS13A
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Extreme Sovereignty of God is a very harmful Heresy!
Extreme Sovereignty teaching tries to blame God for much of the evil in this world. God gave man rule on earth and it man's choice to reject God and God's love and live in sin that has brought sickness pain death and ruin to creation NOT God!

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GISMYS13A

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