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Author Topic: From Back in January
WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Talmid:
Earlier, I read a thread here that began with the following post:

quote:
In his new book, Rapture a Dangerous DECEPTION.
Ret.Marine Corps Col. H. Speed Wilson exposes the origion of the False Doctrine of pre-tib rapture.
This is an excelent book for those Christians who have been beguiled by False teachers who teach the foolishness of pre-trib rapture.

ISBN# 978-1-60791-454-9
Don't be deceived by FALSE TEACHERS of the easy out,bail out doctrine!

Four pages of postings followed. It was evident in many ways that the originator of the thread was in the minority here with his views.

I would like to add the following information into that discussion. It is not opinion. It is based on fact and not conjecture.

My goal is not to change anyone's way of thinking. It is simply to add to it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


In 1 Cor. 15:23, Paul brings out that the resurrection of believers in Christ will happen "at his Parousia" ("when he comes"). Then in 1 Thes. 4, where Paul describes the Parousia ("coming") of the Lord (v.15), we read that this is the time of the saint's resurrection and rapture (v.16,17). The resurrection and rapture of the saints (born again believers) is connected to, and is part of the Parousia.

Adding to this concept, historically, : "When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apentesis..." (F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, ©'70, p.1159) (my emphasis).

In harmony with this historical picture, Paul states in 1Thess.4:17 that the resurrected and transformed saints will be caught up (raptured) to "meet (Gk=apentesis) the Lord in the air", in order to escort him on the last little portion of his arrival to earth at the Parousia (which is the glorious Second Coming and arrival to earth).

---If Jesus were to snatch these people away from the earth, it would not fit with the picture portrayed by these two Greek words, "parousia" and "apentesis". In 1 Thess. 3:13, it is because of Christ's catching up of believers to meet him in the air, followed immediately by their escorting (apentesis) of him as he completes his arrival to earth, that Paul says the Parousia (coming) of our Lord Jesus is "with all his holy ones," as he descends to the earth.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Talmid

All I can add is that in the twinkling of mans eye
many things can be done by our God who has no such limitations.

Can one really tell in human concept the time of that twinkle what God hath done ?

Here is a interesting thing to just think about in human terms.

Many leaders of the contemporary evangelical movement came from Brethren backgrounds, who Bruce be part. These include England-born Dr. D. Stuart Briscoe, author, international speaker and former senior pastor of Elmbrook Church (one of the 50-largest churches in the U.S.), in Brookfield, Wisconsin, Dr. Geoff Tunnicliffe, CEO of the World Evangelical Alliance; the late British scholar F.F. Bruce; 1956 Auca missionary martyrs Ed McCully, Jim Elliot and Peter Fleming; Walter Liefeld, NT professor at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School; the late preacher Dr. Harry A. Ironside, who wrote the, Historical Sketch of the Brethren Movement. Radio personality Garrison Keillor was raised among the Plymouth Brethren, whom he sometimes refers to as the, "sanctified brethren," in his News from "Lake Wobegon" monologues. Peter Maiden, the current leader of Operation Mobilization, also came from the Brethren.[32]
Since 2004 the separatist Raven-Taylor-Hales Exclusive Brethren have become politically active. Formerly, they embraced non-involvement, "in the things of the world", because they are "citizens of heaven". These heterodox Taylor Exclusive Brethren have been responsible for the production and distribution of political literature in the Australian, American, Swedish, Canadian and New Zealand national elections.[33] For more details, see Exclusive Brethren. These Taylor Brethren are atypical of other streams of Plymouth Brethren, which distance themselves from the "Taylorites."
Many mainstream assemblies discourage political involvement, sometimes to the extent of judging anyone in fellowship who opts to exercise their voting rights in democratic, free elections. This teaching is based on the premise that the Bible teaches that Christians are citizens of heaven, only sojourners here on earth and therefore ought not to become involved in activities which could be deemed as being too worldly.[34] A criticism should be leveled that the movement, with its upper-class roots, lacks compassion for the plight of the underprivileged. For example, it was left to William Wilberforce, Lord Shaftesbury and other politically active Christians to work toward the abolishment of slavery and improving the welfare of factory children in the 19th century. This can be viewed as unfair criticism when reflecting on the light of George Müller's ministry caring for homeless orphans and also on some of the sacrifices of its missionaries such as Anthony Norris Groves. It is more reasonable to state that the Brethren are more concerned with people's spiritual rather than their physical condition. However, where physical help is given, it is tended to be given directly and not through secular organisations.
[edit]Notable members.

John Bodkin Adams[35] — General practitioner and suspected serial killer (tried for one murder but controversially acquitted)
Robert Anderson — Head of Scotland Yard and Christian author. Influenced many of the Brethren, though wasn't among them himself.
Thomas John Barnardo[36] — Took in destitute male and female street children; founded Barnardo's.
Patricia Beer[37] — Poet. Born into Brethren, left as adult.
John Gifford Bellet[38] — Prized Classics researcher of Trinity College, Cambridge
Lancelot Brenton — Translator of what is probably the most widely available Greek-English edition of the Septuagint[39]
Stuart Briscoe — author, international speaker and Minister-At-large at Elmbrook Church, was raised Plymouth Brethren, in England
F.F. Bruce — 20th Century Bible scholar and Christian apologist.

Sorry but the Bruce is not right in the head period.


[cool_shades]

I don't know about you, me myself and many others have been under attacks the past four months.

I am being stretched to more than my limits.

Mentally,
Physically, and Spiritually.

I think if your not a trouble maker to Satan,

Your ship will always have sunny waters.

So I know Im on coarse because of the great force's being levied against me and mine.

I hurt each second of each hour of each day.

Yet we have these fair weather jocks that think it edifying to tell a man under such tribulation not to have no hope in his Christ and His Harpozo.

They tell us all how great they will be in the tribulation to the point of decapitation and that we are weak.

I challenge these on this day,

Think,
If you are not in-gauged in suffering for Christ this day,

You best correct your vessels direction.

Steer her back into battle,

harms way!


[Prayer]


[rapture]

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Caretaker
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The Bride is with the BrideGroom in Glory prior to His and the Saint's return.

John 14:
1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


1 Cor. 15:
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Thess. 4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matt. 25:
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Rev. 19:
1: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
2: For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great ***** , which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
3: And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
4: And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5: And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6: And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8: And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9: And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.


11: And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12: His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13: And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14: And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


It is Israel who shall be protected and supernaturally preserved. It was NOT the Church who brought forth the manchild, but Nation Israel:

Rev. 12:
1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6: And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12: Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13: And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14: And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15: And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16: And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew

1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..

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Carol Swenson
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 - All About Apantęsis

Our Lord Jesus Christ does not return as a dignitary to be welcomed by the world, but as One who returns as a conquering judge.

In the summer of 1995, I was in a seminary library looking through the most recent releases of theological journals when I noticed a very interesting article.(Michael R. Cosby, “Hellenistic Formal Receptions and Paul’s Use of Apantęsis in 1 Thessalonians 4:17,” Bulletin for Biblical Research (Vol. 4; 1994),pp. 15-34.) It was written by a posttribulationist who rebuts the notion that “to meet” is a technical term at all. Cosby confesses that while a college student he was dissuaded from pretribulationism to posttribulationism. Cosby tells us,

while doing my doctoral studies, . . . I translated Erik Peterson’s 1930 article . . . His citations of material from ancient Greek papyri, inscriptions, and literature found fertile soil . . . I was completely persuaded by his explanation that Paul’s use of apantęsis in 1 Thess.4:17 presupposed a well known custom: the Hellenistic formal reception.

. . . While reviewing Peterson’s assertions, I discovered to my horror that some of them are simply not persuasive. . . . What began as an effort to strengthen Peterson’s argument became a disturbing exercise in scholarly honesty. (Cosby,“Hellenistic Formal Receptions,” p. 17.)

What did Cosby find when he applied honesty to his scholarly research? He found the following: “One cannot responsibly claim that apantęsis is a technical term on the basis of its percentage of use in passages describing formal receptions. . . . Sometimes apantęsis describes a formal greeting of a dignitary, but often it does not. . . .” He continues, “. . . Yet only a minority of the uses of these terms describes formal receptions. . . .” (Cosby,“Hellenistic Formal Receptions,” pp. 20-21.)

Cosby further states the result of his findings:

The dominate scholarly understanding of apantęsis in 1 Thess. 4:17, based on the work of Peterson, does not sufficiently account for the differences between Paul’s words and description of receptions of dignitaries. All of the main elements of Hellenistic receptions found in ancient papyri, inscriptions and literature are missing from 1 Thess. 4:15-17. Asserting that Paul assumed his readers would automatically fill in such details lacks cogency when we compare Paul’s words with these accounts. If he truly assumed his audience would presuppose these details, then he deliberately reversed most of the usual elements. Claiming that apantęsis was a technical term carrying with it a standard set of expectations is not convincing. Furthermore, even if one assumes that Paul understood apantęsis in this way, the evidence demonstrates that he did not read such meaning wholesale into his description of the Parousia. (Cosby, “Hellenistic Formal Receptions,” pp. 28-29.)

What does Cosby mean by that last sentence? He concludes that Paul had a greater tendency, when he uses technical terms from the Greek language in general, to stand them on end. That is, Paul would use them as a polemic against the stock meaning of the day by reversing a latent implication. Cosby explains:

Peterson, therefore, was incorrect in reading the Hellenistic formal reception into 1 Thess.4:13-17. The text itself does not support his assertion that Paul’s use of apantęsis in 4:17 brings with it the entire baggage of the custom of greeting dignitaries. And if it did, we should admit that Paul deliberately reverses conventional expectations, which would actually fit what we know about his use of other conventions. (Cosby, “Hellenistic Formal Receptions,” p. 31.)

So why have some scholars thought that this was a technical term supporting their belief that “to meet” carried their suggested meaning? Cosby provides the following suggestion:

the details come much more from Christian visions of the Parousia than from Greco-Roman models. Interpreting Paul’s words in light of descriptions of Hellenistic receptions is helpful, but not as Peterson and others have envisioned. Such passages provide insight into the sociological background for 1 Thess. 4:13-17, but for a reason the opposite of what Peterson believed. Instead of being a cipher for understanding what Paul meant through the supposed use of a technical term, they function more as a foil—a loose pattern to play against when describing the coming of the heavenly king. (Cosby, “Hellenistic Formal Receptions,” p. 31.)

Posttribulationist, Cosby, has demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt and concluded “that Peterson’s exegesis was eisegesis.” (Cosby, “Hellenistic Formal Receptions,” p.32.) 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does not specifically say or imply the direction of Christ’s party once we all meet in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 does say, “we will always be with the Lord.” I take it from John 14:1-3, which I believe is a parallel passage to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, that Christ takes us back with Him to the Father’s house. Thus, what 1 Thessalonians 4:17 lacks, John 14:1-3 supplies. After more than seven years, Christ, His bride, and the elect angels will then return to planet earth, not as a dignitary to be welcomed by the world, but as One who returns as a conquering judge. This is an example of how Dr. Gundry uses false assumptions, like the misinformation he posits on “to meet” and then snows his readers with an equally false conclusion.

http://www.raptureready.com/who/Robert_Gundry.html

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Betty Louise
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The Church will be taken in the rapture before the tribulation, and return with Jesus at the Second Coming. Just because someone writes a book against this does not make the pre-trib rapture, wrong.
Just as Jesus was resurrected in to Heaven so will the Church, be taken up in to Heaven. The tribulation will began at the end of the Church Age. The tribulation is not about the Church but about the anti-Christ and his followers.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Talmid
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Member # 8859

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Earlier, I read a thread here that began with the following post:

quote:
In his new book, Rapture a Dangerous DECEPTION.
Ret.Marine Corps Col. H. Speed Wilson exposes the origion of the False Doctrine of pre-tib rapture.
This is an excelent book for those Christians who have been beguiled by False teachers who teach the foolishness of pre-trib rapture.

ISBN# 978-1-60791-454-9
Don't be deceived by FALSE TEACHERS of the easy out,bail out doctrine!

Four pages of postings followed. It was evident in many ways that the originator of the thread was in the minority here with his views.

I would like to add the following information into that discussion. It is not opinion. It is based on fact and not conjecture.

My goal is not to change anyone's way of thinking. It is simply to add to it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


In 1 Cor. 15:23, Paul brings out that the resurrection of believers in Christ will happen "at his Parousia" ("when he comes"). Then in 1 Thes. 4, where Paul describes the Parousia ("coming") of the Lord (v.15), we read that this is the time of the saint's resurrection and rapture (v.16,17). The resurrection and rapture of the saints (born again believers) is connected to, and is part of the Parousia.

Adding to this concept, historically, : "When a dignitary paid an official visit or parousia to a city in Hellenistic times, the action of the leading citizens in going out to meet him and escorting him on the final stage of his journey was called the apentesis..." (F.F.Bruce, in New Bible Commentary, ©'70, p.1159) (my emphasis).

In harmony with this historical picture, Paul states in 1Thess.4:17 that the resurrected and transformed saints will be caught up (raptured) to "meet (Gk=apentesis) the Lord in the air", in order to escort him on the last little portion of his arrival to earth at the Parousia (which is the glorious Second Coming and arrival to earth).

---If Jesus were to snatch these people away from the earth, it would not fit with the picture portrayed by these two Greek words, "parousia" and "apentesis". In 1 Thess. 3:13, it is because of Christ's catching up of believers to meet him in the air, followed immediately by their escorting (apentesis) of him as he completes his arrival to earth, that Paul says the Parousia (coming) of our Lord Jesus is "with all his holy ones," as he descends to the earth.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Talmid

--------------------
"I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another."

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