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Author Topic: Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION
Carol Swenson
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Who is going to populate the Millennial Kingdom? You didn't answer.

It is interesting to contrast the churches at Ephesus and Thyatira. The Ephesian church was weakening in its love, yet faithful to judge false teachers; while the people in the assembly at Thyatira were growing in their love, but too tolerant of false doctrine. Both extremes must be avoided in the church. “Speaking the truth in love” is the biblical balance (Eph. 4:15). Unloving orthodoxy and loving compromise are both hateful to God.

Jezebel and her children (followers) would be sentenced to tribulation (affliction, distress), disease, and death. It doesn't say "THE Tribulation".

Not everyone in the assembly was unfaithful to the Lord, and He had a special word for them. They had separated themselves from the false doctrine and compromising practices of Jezebel and her followers, which Christ denounces as “the depths of Satan” (note the contrast in 1 Cor. 2:10). The Lord had no special demands to make; He simply wanted them to hold fast in their resistance to evil. “Till I come” refers to Christ’s return for His people, at which time He will reward them for their faithfulness (see Rev. 3:3; 16:15; 22:7, 17, 20). This is the first mention in Revelation of the Lord’s coming for the church, the event we commonly call the Rapture.

(Wiersbe)

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Betty Louise
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believe what you want but the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Bloodbought
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Revelation 2:18–29
18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. 21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This was written to the pastor of the church in Thyatira. The Spirit is warning the church that they have listened to, and have been seduced by a false teacher named Jezeble that called herself a prophetess. He said He will cast her and her converts into GREAT TRIBULATION except they repent.

But, He said, unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this false doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.

True believers are not raptured out of great tribulation. They live in the midst of those who go through great tribulation, but they are protected according to the mercy of the Lord.

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Carol Swenson
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 - Populating The Millennial Kingdom


I. THE PROBLEM

When the Millennium begins, some people have to be alive in unresurrected bodies, who can beget children and populate that kingdom. All premillennialists agree with this.

The Millennium not only involves the reign of Christ with His people, who will then have resurrected bodies, but also the reign of Christ over people on this earth who will not have resurrected bodies. If there were only resurrected saints in the kingdom, then there would be no death, no increase in population, and no differences in the ages of millennial citizens (all of which are indicated as characterizing the kingdom-Isa. 65:20; Zech. 8:5; Rev. 20:12). Since resurrected people do not propagate, there would be no way to populate the kingdom unless some unresurrected people enter the Millennium. Thus all premillennialists see the need to have some adults who survive the Tribulation who are not taken to heaven at the end of the Tribulation but who enter the Millennium in unresurrected bodies to become the first parents of the millennial population.

II. THE PRETRIBULATIONAL SOLUTION

The pretribulational understanding of future events satisfies this need easily. The Rapture will occur before the Tribulation, removing all the redeemed who are living on the earth at that time. But many people will be saved during the Tribulation (Rev. 7:9, 14) including a specific group of 144,000 Jewish people (v. 4). Of those saved during that horrible time, many will be martyred (6:11; 13:15), but some will survive to enter the Millennium (Matt. 25:34; Zech. 14:11). The initial group who will enter the Millennium will not only enter with natural bodies but will also be redeemed people who willingly submit to the rule of the King. In due time, babies will be born and grow up. Some will receive Christ into their hearts; others will not. But all will have to give allegiance to the King’s government or suffer the consequences. By the end of the Millennium there will be innumerable rebels who will have given outward obedience to the King, but who, when given the opportunity by Satan after his release, will join his revolution against Christ (Rev. 20:7-9).

Thus in the pretribulational understanding of these future events, the original parents of the millennial kingdom will come from the redeemed (but unresurrected) survivors of the Tribulation, the “sheep” of Matthew 25:34 and the faithful Jewish survivors of Ezekiel 20:38.

III. THE POSTTRIBULATIONAL SOLUTION

In contrast stands the posttribulational picture. The church, of course, will live through the Tribulation. Though some will be martyred, many will be protected and survive. The 144,000 Jews and the great multitude of Revelation 7 are included in the church. At the end of the Tribulation all living believers will be raptured, given resurrection bodies, and return immediately to earth in the single event of the Rapture and Second Coming. This would seem to eliminate all redeemed, unresurrected people from the earth at that point in time so that there will be no one left to begin to populate the kingdom. If the wicked survivors are either killed or consigned to hades at the end of the Tribulation, then there will be no one left in an unresurrected body to enter the Millennium.

So, either the posttribulationist must find some people who will not be saved when the Rapture begins but will be saved by the time that single, instantaneous event of the Rapture-Second Coming concludes (how much time is there?), or he must allow the initial parents of the Millennium to be unsaved people who somehow are not killed or judged at or after Armageddon. Those are the only options open to the posttribulationist to find millennial parents.

We need to be reminded of another detail at this point. The millennial population includes both Jewish and Gentile people (Isa. 19:24-25). So the first generation must be made up of both races. But a posttribulational Rapture will remove all the candidates for redeemed millennial parents of every race. And the judgments of the Second Coming will remove all the candidates for unredeemed millennial parents of every race. Where will those parents come from?

Most posttribulationists do not attempt to give an answer to this question. This may be because posttribulationists do not usually put the details of their system together in an orderly way. Their picture of the future is painted with broad strokes, not fine detail. Posttribulationists do not sponsor prophecy conferences in which their speakers are expected to describe rather specifically the system they promote. Some posttribulationists may never have seen this question as a question, simply because they have not spelled out systematically and in detail their outline of future events. But whatever the reason, most do not address this question.

Robert Gundry is an exception (The Church and the Tribulation [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1973], pp. 81-3, 134-9, 163-71). His answer is twofold. The Jewish progenitors of the millennial population will come from the 144,000 who will not be saved at any time during the Tribulation but only at the end (p.83). The Gentile parents will come from the wicked who will somehow escape death and/or judgment at the end of the Tribulation (p.137). Those wicked are the ones left in Matthew 24:40-41 (in contrast to the ones taken in the posttribulational Rapture). He says, “. . . a partial destruction would leave the remaining unsaved to populate the millennial earth” (p. 137).

Furthermore, an adjustment has to be made in the time of the judgment of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46 if the posttribulational picture be correct. The reason is simple: if the Rapture is after the Tribulation, then all the sheep (redeemed) will have been removed from the earth, and there would be no sheep to be part of that judgment if it occurs at the Second Coming, which is a single event with the Rapture. There is no way the Rapture can remove the sheep and yet have sheep present on the earth to be judged immediately following the Rapture. So either the Rapture cannot be posttribulational or the judgment of the sheep and goats must be after the Second Coming (Gundry places it after the Millennium).

We need to examine three things that are necessary to the posttribulational answer: (a) the conversion of the 144,000, (b) the identification of the groups in Matthew 24:40-41, and (c) the time of the judgment of the sheep and goats in verses 31-46.

IV. THE 144,000 JEWS

Some posttribulationists consider the 144,000 Jews to be “spiritual Israel—the church” (George E. Ladd, A Commentary on the Revelation of John [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971], p. 114). If so, then their sealing is at the beginning of the Tribulation and relates to their spiritual salvation as well as physical protection. Gundry acknowledges that the 144,000 might belong to the church (and therefore be saved at the beginning); he prefers to regard them as unsaved throughout the Tribulation and identical with the group that will look on Christ when He returns and believe (Zech. 12:10) and with the Israel who will be saved at the Second Coming (Rom. 11:26-27). The reason for his preference is logical. If the 144,000 were saved any time during the Tribulation years-at the beginning, in the middle, or even during the last year-they would be raptured in the posttribulation Rapture, given resurrection bodies at that time, then return at the same time to reign with Christ in the kingdom. But having been given resurrection bodies would preclude their being the parents of anybody in the kingdom. On the other hand, if they were not saved until the very end of the Second Coming, they would “escape” the Rapture, yet be converted, but remain in unresurrected bodies and thus be able to become parents of millennial children.

Actually, pretribulationists understand that there will be a group of Jewish people converted at the conclusion of the Tribulation who will become the parents of the Jewish portion of the millennial population. They will come from among the Jewish people who survive the Tribulation even though they were unsaved throughout it. When the Lord returns they will be gathered and judged, the rebels (possibly two thirds, Zech. 13:8) to be excluded from the kingdom, and those who turn in faith when they see Him to enter the kingdom (Ezek. 20:33-44). Those believing survivors constitute the “all” of all Israel that will be saved at the Second Coming (Rom. 11:26). But they will not be given resurrection bodies at that time; rather they will enter the kingdom in material bodies with the ability to propagate.

Why cannot the posttribulationist also let this group be the millennial parents? Because that group will believe when they see the Lord coming, which would be at the posttribulational Rapture. So they also would be raptured, taken to heaven, given resurrection bodies, and eliminated from parenting. The Rapture, whenever it occurs, will be the greatest separation of believers from unbelievers imaginable so if there is to be a group of Jewish people who will believe when they see the Lord coming, and if that coming is the posttribulational Rapture-Second Coming, then they will be raptured because at that moment they will become believers. So the posttribulationist needs to have a group that is sealed in an unsaved state long enough to miss the Rapture but not long enough to miss entering the Millennium in material bodies. Thus, as one would expect, Gundry says of Ezekiel 20 that “that passage may not portray a formal judgment at all” (p. 168). Actually, it cannot in the posttribulational system.

Can the 144,000 be considered unconverted throughout the Tribulation years? The answer is yes. One can hold any interpretation one wishes. The question is not, Is it possible to interpret that way? The question is, Is it reasonable to do so? What does the text of Revelation 7:1-8 say?

It states two very significant facts: the 144,000 “have the seal of the living God” (v. 2) and they are “the bond servants of our God” (v. 3). The text does not specifically say what their service is, but it does say whom they serve. They serve God, not Antichrist. Are we to imagine here a group of 144,000 unsaved people designated as God’s bond servants? Posttribulationists weakly explain that the designation is anticipatory of their millennial service when they will have been converted. Any explanation is possible, but is it the most likely meaning of the text? Certainly not.

But even granting that their designation as God’s servants does not apply to the 144,000 in the Tribulation period but only in the Millennium, the statement in verse 2 is very difficult to harmonize with the posttribulational system. The group is said to be sealed before the judgments of the Tribulation begin (v. 3). Try to fit this into posttribulationism. Here would be a distinct group of unconverted Jewish people on whose foreheads God has placed His seal. As unsaved people, they (or surely some of them) will follow Antichrist, who also will place his mark on their foreheads or hands. And the destiny of Antichrist’s followers has already been predetermined: they will be tormented forever with fire and brimstone (14:9-11). None of his followers will be saved, not even 144,000 of them.

To sum up: posttribulationism needs to have an unconverted group of Jews who will survive the Tribulation, but who, because they are unconverted, will not be raptured at the end, but will be converted by the time the Millennium begins so they can enter the Millennium in their unresurrected bodies and beget children. The only group that can qualify is the 144,000, assuming they can be described as unconverted servants of God who have on their foreheads God’s seal before the Tribulation begins and who do not follow Antichrist so they will not have his mark. Is all this possible?

V. MATTHEW 24:40-41

Not only must the 144,000 be identified in a particular way, but the groups distinguished in verses 40-41 must also be identified in a certain way to come up with the posttribulational picture.

According to the posttribulational understanding, these verses say the following: “Then [at the posttribulational Rapture-Second Coming] there shall be two men in the field; one [saved, representing the church] will be taken [in the posttribulational Rapture], and one [unsaved, representing the wicked] will be left [for judgment, though not all will be judged, so some will be left to be parents of the Gentile population of the Millennium].” And the same for verse 41—the one taken is raptured, and the one left is judged.

By contrast, the pretribulationist sees the verses as a general statement of the results of the specific judgments on surviving Jews and Gentiles at the Second Coming. Those who are taken are taken into the judgments and condemned, and those who are left successfully pass the judgments and are left for blessing in the kingdom.

Notice that the posttribulationist must add the stipulation that not all who are left are judged and condemned so that there will be some left to populate the earth. But therein lies an inconsistency: the Rapture will take all the redeemed, but the judgment will not include all the unredeemed. Only part of the wicked will be judged.

Pretribulationists support their view by pointing out that according to verse 39 the Flood took the people of Noah’s day into judgment; therefore, those taken at the Second Coming will also be taken into judgment.

Posttribulationists observe that a different word is used in verse 39 for “took away” than in verses 40-41, indicating two different kinds of taking away—verse 39 into judgment but verses 40-41 into heaven at the Rapture. They reinforce this argument by pointing out that the word in verses 40-41 is the same word used to describe the Rapture in John 14:3, “receive you to Myself.”

Pretribulationists note that in John 19:16 the same word used in Matthew 24:40-41 (supposedly of the Rapture according to posttribulationists) is used of taking the Lord into judgment, so obviously it could mean judgment in verses 40-41, as pretribulationism teaches. Back and forth the discussion of the words goes. What can we conclude? Simply that the words themselves are inconclusive.

But the debate is not without resolution. It can easily be settled by looking at the parallel passage in Luke 17:34-37, where the same warning about one being taken and one left is given by the Lord. However, Luke adds a question that the disciples asked: “Where, Lord?” They asked Him where those taken would be taken. They did not inquire where those left would be left. If the Lord intended us to understand that those taken would be taken in the Rapture (as posttribulationism teaches), He would have answered the question by saying heaven, or the Father’s house, or some similar expression. But His answer conveyed that they would be taken somewhere quite opposite to a blissful heaven. His answer was, “Where the body is, there will also the vultures be gathered.” Christ’s answer is a proverb about vultures appearing out of nowhere when an animal dies. Where will they be taken? Where there is death and corruption, not life and immortality. The reference is not to heaven, but to judgment. Thus the pretribulationist’s understanding of the identity of the one taken and the one left is the correct one according to Luke 17:37. A posttribulational Rapture is nowhere indicated in these verses.

VI. THE TIME OF THE SHEEP AND THE GOATS JUDGMENT

This judgment of the sheep and goats, placed at the Second Coming by pretribulationists, has to be moved to a later time if posttribulationism be consistent. The reason is that if the Rapture occurs at the end of the Tribulation, that is, at the Second Coming and if all the sheep are taken to heaven in that Rapture, how will there be any left to be assembled before Christ when He comes? They will already have gone. Or to put it another way: the Rapture-Second Coming will separate the redeemed from the wicked; yet this judgment at the Second Coming will do the same, only there will not be any righteous on the earth to separate since they will just have been raptured.

Moving this judgment also provides for unsaved survivors of the Tribulation and Second Coming to enter the Millennium in unresurrected bodies. Gundry admits, “We are therefore forced to put the judgment of the nations after the Millennium” (p. 166). Forced? Why? Because the condemnation of the goats cannot be of only a part of them, since the text says “all” will be judged. In his interpretation of those left in Matthew 24:40-41, Gundry says that represented only “a partial destruction” (p. 137), but here all are specifically said to be involved (25:32).

No text requires that there be unsaved entering the Millennium. After a few years have passed there will be people, born during the early days of the Millennium, who will grow to adulthood rejecting the Savior-King in their hearts (though outwardly obeying Him). But no text requires that there be unsaved people among the survivors of the Tribulation who enter the Millennium. Zechariah 14:16 (sometimes used to support this idea) refers to the first generation of millennial citizens who came through the judgments as redeemed, not rebels, and who will voluntarily go to Jerusalem to worship the King. But verses 17-21 move on to describe conditions throughout the Millennium, not just at the beginning. As time goes on, some will not obey the King and will have to be punished.

Perhaps the more compelling reason for the posttribulationists’ moving this judgment to the end of the Millennium is not to get goats into the Millennium as much as it is to get sheep into the judgment itself. Let me press the point again: if the judgment occurs at the Second Coming, and if the Rapture has just occurred as part of the Second Coming, and if the Rapture has removed the sheep (as it would), then where will the sheep come from to be present in this judgment?

If, however, the judgment can be moved to the close of the Millennium, then, of course, there will be both righteous and wicked people living at the conclusion of the Millennium to be present. But how, then, does one reconcile the rather diverse characteristics of Matthew 25:31-46 with those that describe what would supposedly be the same judgment at the Great White Throne in Revelation 20:11-15? Notice some of the contrasts between the judgment of the sheep and goats and the judgment at the Great White Throne.

Gundry calls the judgment of the sheep and goats a “pattern for the general judgment at the end of time” (p.167). If it is a pattern, it is rather inexact! To be sure, passages describing the same event do not each have to contain all the same details, but these two passages seem to be entirely dissimilar in their details.

If the judgment of the sheep and goats is to be moved to the end of the Millennium then of course, Matthew 25:31 must be understood as referring to the Second Coming and verse 32 to the end of the Millennium, 1,000 years later. In other words, the gap of the 1,000-year Millennium must come between verses 31 and 32. Premillennialists recognize that such gaps occur in Scripture (Isa. 9:6 and John 5:28-29, for example), so this is not an impossible idea. But is it the likely interpretation?

Matthew 25:35-40 gives the answer. Do these verses describe millennial conditions? They have to if this judgment will occur after the conclusion of the Millennium. If they do, then the Millennium will have to be a time when Christ and His followers are hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and in prison. Those who disobey the King during the Millennium may be imprisoned, but the text says that during the period preceding the judgment Christ’s followers will be in prison. As certainly as this will not be true during the Millennium, it will be true during the Tribulation. Christ’s followers will be hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, and imprisoned during the Tribulation years, but not during the Millennium when Christ will be ruling in righteousness.

Clearly then, verses 35-40 preclude inserting a gap of 1,000 years between verses 31 and 32. The judgment will immediately follow the coming of Christ and will test people on the basis of their heart reactions to conditions that will exist during the Tribulation—conditions that will not be present during the Millennium for Christ’s followers.

VII. CONCLUSION

Where has our discussion led? To the conclusion that posttribulationism cannot provide an answer to the question, Who will be the parents of the millennial population? To be sure, posttribulationism offers some wishful thinking on the subject. They wish the 144,000 would be the Jewish parents, but in order to qualify they will have to remain unconverted throughout the Tribulation as well as through the Rapture-Second Coming, and then be converted. They wish that some of the ones left in the separation of 24:40-41 would be the Gentile parents (others will be condemned to hell). But this twists the meaning of “taken” and “left,” making the taking to heaven in the Rapture contrary to the clear meaning of “taken” in Luke 17:36. And to make these suggestions consistent, the judgment of the sheep and goats must be placed at the conclusion of the Millennium, and Matthew 25:35-40 must describe millennial conditions.

How much simpler not to have to place the Rapture at the conclusion of the Tribulation. That allows for people to accept or reject Christ during the Tribulation, some of whom will survive that time (none of whom will be raptured, because the Rapture will already have occurred) to be judged at the Second Coming (both living Jews and Gentiles), and those who pass those judgments successfully as redeemed people to go into the kingdom in earthly bodies to be the first generation of the millennial population and the parents of the next generation.

(Basic Theology)

Bloodbought & Ezekiel 13:20, who will be the parents of the millennial population?

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Eduardo Grequi
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age of grace is define the time before the Church is taken out thru the removal of the Holy Spirit. It is the 144,000 Jewish Ministers that will be the evangilists to bring the word of salvation to the multitude.

Sometimes I believe there will be a blending of events that would make it seem we have arrived to the portal of Jacob's trouble. I truly believe whether Jesus returns before the man of Sin is known or after he has assume power, it will be a very taxing and trying time.

So my brothers and sisters have we immulated Christ to the point of being an effectual witness before this rapture occur.

What can we do to point people to Jesus? What can we do communicate non-judgementally to the lost.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
So,if the dispensation of grace ends with the so called rapture,how will the tribulation saints be saved?
Works?

Although every man at any time is saved by the grace of God through faith, the content of faith differs from one dispensation to the next.

Before the tribulation, God will catch away all Christians (in whom the Holy Spirit dwells) and He will also remove His hand from the powers of evil in this world, making way for the great deception and the kingdom of the AntiChrist. The Holy Spirit will begin operating in a manner that is more like Old Testament times, unlike the manner in which He operates today. He will not indwell believers again until Jesus Christ returns at the end of the tribulation, with these two exceptions: He will be the seal on the 144,000 young men of Israel (Revelation 7:1-8), who will be preaching the gospel of the kingdom throughout the world, and He will fill the two witnesses in (Revelation 11:3-4).

Jesus Christ said in Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." The gospel of the kingdom was "... Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17). But, Paul preached the gospel of grace which is: Jesus Christ, the Son of God, freely gave His life as a sacrifice for our sins. He was crucified, buried, and rose from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Paul wrote in Galatians 1:8 that if anyone "... preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed." Thus we know that this present church must be removed to allow the worldwide preaching of the gospel of the kingdom that Paul did not preach to us.

Revelation 14:12 (NASB)

Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Revelation 20:4 (NASB)

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


quote:
Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him(anti-christ,false messiah)by the Blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;and they loved not their lives unto death.
Umm..doesn't look as if the plan changes to me.


I'll quote this verse in context:


Revelation 12:7 - 17 (NASB)
And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war, and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. “And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. “For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth. So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.


The verse you quoted took place in Heaven, but on earth it changes from "blood of the Lamb" to "the commandments of God".

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crixus
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Get right, or get left behind...for 3 1/2 years of Hell on Earth. I'd much rather be in Heaven instead. [rapture] The rapture will be the real deal! (1 Thessalonians 4:17)

--------------------
Keepin' the faith!

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Then you must agree that that the tares get harvested first. Is that right?
Or does the wheat get pulled up in a rapture,then the tares get harvested,then the raptured wheat returns with Christ at the Second Coming.



All of the Old Testament Saints are already in Heaven.

All of those who have died in Christ are already in Heaven.

The Church will be in Heaven.

Most of the Tribulation Saints will be killed during the Tribulation and they’ll be in Heaven.

The only ones alive to be judged at the Second Coming are survivors of the Tribulation, and this is described in Matthew 25:31-46. Here the Lord blesses the sheep before He curses the goats.

The wheat and tares judgment cannot be at the Second Coming because there will still be both wheat and tares all during the Millennial Kingdom era.

It is at the end of time that all the unsaved are judged and cast into the lake of fire before the saved are given the New Heaven and Earth.

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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgement takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

Christ was not speaking a metaphor in Matthew 13:30
He meant what He said,and said what He meant.
FIRST means FIRST.

That's right, judgement comes FIRST, then the New Heavens and Earth. [clap2]
Then you must agree that that the tares get harvested first. Is that right?
Or does the wheat get pulled up in a rapture,then the tares get harvested,then the raptured wheat returns with Christ at the Second Coming.

I think pre-tribbers are just chasing their tails,trying to cover up the fact that they are trusting in a future "bail out" instead of Christ,Himself.

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So,if the dispensation of grace ends with the so called rapture,how will the tribulation saints be saved?
Works?

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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
So right Betty. The "oil" is the Holy Spirit, and every believer is indwelt by Him. He is the One who must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. For that to happen means the Church, indwelt by Him, must be taken out of the way, i.e., Raptured off of the Earth.

quote:
None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.


This is so funny Eze! He doesn't bring the Raptured with Him when He is coming to Rapture us!
How will those "Left Behind" be convicted of sin,repent and be saved if the Holy Spirit isn't here?
There's no other way a person can be saved except through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Oh,that's right according to the pre-tribbers God has a differnt plan of salvation during the tribulation.....silly me I forgot.

Silly you indeed. The Age of Grace ends with the Rapture. During the Tribulation the Holy Spirit will be like He was in the Old Testament. He is omnipresent and He will always be here, but not in the same way as He is now.
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgement takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

Christ was not speaking a metaphor in Matthew 13:30
He meant what He said,and said what He meant.
FIRST means FIRST.

That's right, judgement comes FIRST, then the New Heavens and Earth. [clap2]
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
So right Betty. The "oil" is the Holy Spirit, and every believer is indwelt by Him. He is the One who must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. For that to happen means the Church, indwelt by Him, must be taken out of the way, i.e., Raptured off of the Earth.

quote:
None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.


This is so funny Eze! He doesn't bring the Raptured with Him when He is coming to Rapture us!
How will those "Left Behind" be convicted of sin,repent and be saved if the Holy Spirit isn't here?
There's no other way a person can be saved except through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Oh,that's right according to the pre-tribbers God has a differnt plan of salvation during the tribulation.....silly me I forgot.

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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgement takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

Christ was not speaking a metaphor in Matthew 13:30
He meant what He said,and said what He meant.
FIRST means FIRST.

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quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
Speaking of the wheat and the tares. Jesus said,

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first, but those who hold to the pre-trib rapture say the wheat is gathered first.

That’s a contradiction.

Like Linus on Charlie Brown,they drag around that FALSE security blanket of pre-trib rapture!
The whole pre-trib rapture contradicts the Scriptures.

Matthew 24:29-31 is but a few Scriptures that that blow the whole fantasy of pre-trib out the water,but they are under strong delusion(II Thessalonians 2:11) that they will just fly away.
Traded their Gospel Armour for satan's jet pack,so to speak.

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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
And as usual Ezikel will not see the truth. You are right about the oil but that is for Tribulation Saints. Christians are only saved by the blood we cannot add to our salvation. We cannot fill ourselves up more with the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to fill. We cannot add on iota to our salvation.
betty

Umm....S God has a differnt plan of Salvation for the "Tribulation" saints.
I didn't know He had but one plan.

Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him(anti-christ,false messiah)by the Blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony;and they loved not their lives unto death.
Umm..doesn't look as if the plan changes to me.

Are you saying that "Tribulation" saints have to work for their salvation?

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The “harvest” was a common metaphor for the final judgment (Jeremiah 51:33; Hosea 6:11; see also Revelation 14:14-16).

Judgment takes place in Revelation 20, the New Heavens and Earth in Revelation 21.

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Bloodbought
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Speaking of the wheat and the tares. Jesus said,

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares are gathered first, but those who hold to the pre-trib rapture say the wheat is gathered first.

That’s a contradiction.

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Carol Swenson
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So right Betty. The "oil" is the Holy Spirit, and every believer is indwelt by Him. He is the One who must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed. For that to happen means the Church, indwelt by Him, must be taken out of the way, i.e., Raptured off of the Earth.

quote:
None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.


This is so funny Eze! He doesn't bring the Raptured with Him when He is coming to Rapture us!
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Betty Louise
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And as usual Ezikel will not see the truth. You are right about the oil but that is for Tribulation Saints. Christians are only saved by the blood we cannot add to our salvation. We cannot fill ourselves up more with the Holy Spirit. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to fill. We cannot add on iota to our salvation.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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None of those verses says anything about a rapture. The DEAD He brings back with Him. Doesn't say he brings back those who were raptured.

Sad thing that so many will be without any oil during the time of tribulation,simply because they have listened to the FALSE TEACHERS of pre-trib rapture!

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Luke 21:36 NKJV

Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.

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Eduardo Grequi
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I will only say this:

The book of I Thess chapter 4 defines the rapture:

(1Th 4:13) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

(1Th 4:15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

(1Th 4:17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.


The fact of the rapture is to bring comfort. Christians who walk away and say there is no rapture are worshipping their own view. IF the rapture happens before the tribulation it is called a pre-trib rapture, if the rapture during the tribulation it is called para-trib rapture and if it doesn't happened period than what the book of Thessalonians says was a lie and if that is a lie than everything from Genesis - Revelation is a lie and the God of that collection of books can not be trusted.

As Paul has spoken if the resurrection of Jesus never took place then our faith is in vain.

Come on you guys get it together, here in this blog topic barely potraits Christian love. It appears like a bunch of opinionate parahnas devouring anyone who has different point of view.

The most important subject that should be discussed is "WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH JESUS?"

Did you placed him back on the cross or are you living for him? etc....

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LOL [hug]

I'm not trying to change his beliefs Betty. He has the right to believe in a post-trib rapture if he wants. I just want him to learn to do careful research and quote scripture and communicate with people in a reasonable way instead of just barking at us.

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Betty Louise
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Give up Carol. [hug] Some people do not want to know the truth. Some are so prideful that when they are taken in the rapture they will probably try to tell God that He did it the wrong way.
love,
mom

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB]

Oh, but I forgot. You think the Tribulation will be a time of peace and prosperity.

Perhaps,you should read Daniel ch.8:23-27

Daniel 8:23 - 25 (NLT)
23“At the end of their rule, when their sin is at its height, a fierce king, a master of intrigue, will rise to power. 24He will become very strong, but not by his own power. He will cause a shocking amount of destruction and succeed in everything he does. He will destroy powerful leaders and devastate the holy people. 25He will be a master of deception and will become arrogant; he will destroy many without warning. He will even take on the Prince of princes in battle, but he will be broken, though not by human power.

Let me guess. In verse 25 "destroy many without warning" is translated in the KJV as "and by peace shall destroy many".

So you think the Tribulation will be a time of peace even though the entire passage is about how destructive Antiochus Epiphanes, as a type of Antichrist, is.

quote:
THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL? (Page 4

Ezekiel 13:20
posted February 18, 2011 19:19
-------------------------------------------------

Anti-christ comes in Peacefully and Prosperously saying he is God.
The death he causes is spititual death.
The death spoken of in Revelation for the most part is spiritual death. Satan is spiritual death,he ain't to concerned with killing someone physically.
Anti-christ pretends to be Christ. A better name for anti-christ would be Facsimile-christ.
Those who have watched the death and destrution movies,will be in for quite a surprise when anti-christ does appear,they will think he is Jesus here to rapture them away.


What would a man give in exchange for his soul?



Time for parallel translations again:

NRSV:
25By his cunning

he shall make deceit prosper under his hand,

and in his own mind he shall be great.

Without warning he shall destroy many

and shall even rise up against the Prince of princes.

But he shall be broken, and not by human hands.

NCV:
25This king will succeed by using lies and force. He will think that he is very important. He will destroy many people without warning; he will try to fight even the Prince of princes! But that cruel king will be destroyed, and not by human power.

KJV:
25And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

ESV:
25By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall become great. Without warning he shall destroy many. And he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes, and he shall be broken—but by no human hand.

RSV:
25By his cunning he shall make deceit prosper under his hand, and in his own mind he shall magnify himself. Without warning he shall destroy many; and he shall even rise up against the Prince of princes; but, by no human hand, he shall be broken.

NASB:
25“And through his shrewdness

He will cause deceit to succeed by his influence;

And he will magnify himself in his heart,

And he will destroy many while they are at ease.

He will even oppose the Prince of princes,

But he will be broken without human agency.

ICB:
25This king will use his wisdom to make lies successful. He will think that he is very important. He will destroy many people without warning. He will try to fight even God, the Prince of princes! But that cruel king will be destroyed. And it will not be human power that destroys him.

NLT:
25He will be a master of deception and will become arrogant; he will destroy many without warning. He will even take on the Prince of princes in battle, but he will be broken, though not by human power.

CEV:
25His deceitful lies will make him so successful, that he will think he is really great. Suddenly he will kill many people, and he will even attack God, the Supreme Ruler. But God will crush him!

TEV:
25Because he is cunning, he will succeed in his deceitful ways. He will be proud of himself and destroy many people without warning. He will even defy the greatest King of all, but he will be destroyed without the use of any human power.

GWT:
25He will cleverly use his power to deceive others successfully. He will consider himself to be great and destroy many people when they don’t expect it. He will oppose the Commander of Commanders, but he will be defeated, though not by any human power.

These aren't all the English translations, but enough of them to prove my point. The Tribulation will not be a time of peace.

Here is an online parallel Bible you can use if you want:

http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm

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quote:
Yes,His Second Coming will be followed by His 1000 year Millenial Reign here on this earth.

Revelation 5:10

If every believer alive is raptured at His Second Coming, then who will live in the Millennial Kingdom? You said before that raptured people have only spirit bodies.

quote:
THE SECRET RAPTURE - IS IT SCRIPTURAL? (Page 3)

Ezekiel 13:20
posted January 26, 2011 11:35
________________________________________
The deception is in the fact that most people have been taught that "air" is the atmosphere,when in all reality we meet the Lord in our spirit bodies (air).


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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
[QB]

Oh, but I forgot. You think the Tribulation will be a time of peace and prosperity.

Perhaps,you should read Daniel ch.8:23-27

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Yes,His Second Coming will be followed by His 1000 year Millenial Reign here on this earth.

Revelation 5:10

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 certainly makes no mention of surviving the Tribulation. In fact the two verses before state:

1 Thessalonians 4:11 - 12 (NASB)
and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life and attend to your own business and work with your hands, just as we commanded you, so that you will behave properly toward outsiders and not be in any need.

Oh, but I forgot. You think the Tribulation will be a time of peace and prosperity.

Is His Second Coming followed by the Millennial Kingdom?

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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Oh yes, He will return exactly as He said He would at the end of the Tribulation, and we will be with Him!

Those who have passed on before the Second Coming will be with Him,those of us who are still alive will be changed instantly.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 Has nothing to do with a pre-trib bail out. Try,reading it with understanding. Not with the preconceived modern day notion of pre-trib rapture.

Does it say,those who were raptured return with Christ,or does it say those who have passed on before return with Christ?
Those who are still alive and HERE will be caught up to meet Him.
Ain't nobody going nowhere,untill after the tribulation.
The FIRST RESURRECTION does not happen untill the SECOND COMING of OUR LORD and SAVIOUR,JESUS CHRIST. Read Revelation ch.20.

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Oh yes, He will return exactly as He said He would at the end of the Tribulation, and we will be with Him!
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God's Word,and Church History do not support the any moment outa here doctrine of pre-trib rapture.
All one has to do is investigate.

Christ shall return exactly as He said He would,not as the FALSE TEACHERS of pre-trib say!

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WildB
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and William wept.

--------------------
That is all.....

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BurgerGirl
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Rapture or not...
In Hebrews 13:5 it says that God will never leave us, forsake us or leave us helpless in any way. He will never let us down or relax his hold on us. It's a promise to all believers. Therefore, I find it impossible to believe that during tribulation he would leave his own children to suffer through what he already has for us.

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
I do take my own advice.

That's why I have studied the Scriptures and origin of the modern day bail out doctrine.
I knew I was having my ears tickled when I first heard the easy out doctrine.
At first I tried to believe it. Even went to school and gave them the answers they wanted and got certificates and diplomas saying I knew all about the "Bail Out" pre-trib rapture.
It still didn't line up with Scripture or Church history.
Investigate it for your self,or be swept away in satan's flood of pre-trib LIE'S.
God will reveal the TRUTH to those who want to know.

Ezekiel 13:20 = The Hireling Shepherd

 -

Do not be fooled my baseball fans. Just another later-day weed seeder.


[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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BurgerGirl
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quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
Burger Girl,

Don't think I have met you. Welcome to the board.
betty

Likewise... *smiles*
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Carol Swenson
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Oooh. Big talker. Show us some proof. With all that education you should at least know that air means air.
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I do take my own advice.

That's why I have studied the Scriptures and origin of the modern day bail out doctrine.
I knew I was having my ears tickled when I first heard the easy out doctrine.
At first I tried to believe it. Even went to school and gave them the answers they wanted and got certificates and diplomas saying I knew all about the "Bail Out" pre-trib rapture.
It still didn't line up with Scripture or Church history.
Investigate it for your self,or be swept away in satan's flood of pre-trib LIE'S.
God will reveal the TRUTH to those who want to know.

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Carol Swenson
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Hi Burger Girl. Welcome back. [Smile]

quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
And what does "air" mean in the Greek?
Certainly not atmosphere!

Actually, it DOES mean atmosphere.

ThenG1899 we who are aliveG2198 and remainG4035 will be caughtG726 up togetherG260 with them in the cloudsG3507 to meetG529 the LordG2962 in the airG109, and soG3779 we shall alwaysG3842 be with the LordG2962

G109

ἀήρ

aēr

Thayer Definition:

1) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

2) the atmospheric region

Part of Speech: noun masculine

quote:
Study and shew thyself approved. Too many people get confused by would be preachers who don't know what they are talking about!
Take your own advice Eze.
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Betty Louise
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Burger Girl,

Don't think I have met you. Welcome to the board.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Betty Louise
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you are just too blind to see it. Again the tribulation is not about the Church. The tribulation will not occur until the Church Age ends. I am sorry that you have been influenced by false teachers, but we are not interested in false teaching. We know the truth.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Ezekiel 13:20
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I Thessalonians 4:17 Is not proff of a Pre-trib Bail out.
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BurgerGirl
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quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (King James Version)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [rapture]

I've read my bible from cover to cover and I have to say I agree with Carol.
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KnowHim
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Better get your CLOUDS straight,or you'll wind up with the rapture CLOWNS!

You are getting very close to getting banned from this message board!

David

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Carol Swenson
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quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
Revelation 1:7
Behold,He cometh with CLOUDS;and every eye shall shall see Him,and they also which pierced Him:and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him.Even so,Amen

Are these rain CLOUDS also?

Better get your CLOUDS straight,or you'll wind up with the rapture CLOWNS!

Nope. These are G3507 clouds. [wiggle7]

The verse from Hebrews 12:1 is Strong's Number G3509 which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the NASB.

Strong's Number G3507 occurs 25 times in 21 verses in the Greek concordance of the NASB.


G3507

νεφέλη

nephelē

Thayer Definition:

1) a cloud

1a) used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness

Part of Speech: noun feminine

A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3509
_________________________________________________

Here are some of the concordance verses for G3507


While he846 was still2089 speaking2980, a bright5460 cloud3507 overshadowed1982 them1438, and2532 behold2400, a voice5456 out of1537 the cloud3507 said3004, "This3778 is1510 My1473 beloved27 Son5207, with1722 whom3739 I am well-pleased2106; listen191 to Him846!"

Mat 24:30 "And2532 then5119 the sign4592 of the Son5207 of Man444 will appear5316 in1722 the sky3772, and2532 then5119 all3956 the tribes5443 of the earth1093 will mourn2875, and2532 they will see3708 the SON5207 OF MAN444 COMING2064 ON109 THE CLOUDS3507 OF THE SKY3772 with3326 power1411 and2532 great4183 glory1391.

Luk 12:54 And1161 He was30040 also2532 saying3004 to the crowds3793, "When3752 you see3708 a cloud3507 rising393 in1909 the west1424, immediately2112 you say3004, 'A shower3655 is coming2064,' and2532 so3779 it turns out1096.

Act 1:9 And2532 after He had said3004 these things3778, He was lifted up1869 while they846 were looking on991, and2532 a cloud3507 received5274 Him846 out of575 their846 sight3788.

1Cr 10:1 For I do not want2309 you to be unaware50, brethren80, that our fathers3962 were all3956 under5259 the cloud3507 and all3956 passed1330 through1330 the sea2281;

1Cr 10:2 and all3956 were baptized907 into Moses3475 in the cloud3507 and in the sea2281;

1Th 4:17 Then1899 we1473 who are alive2198 and remain4035 will be caught up726 together260 with4862 them846 in1722 the clouds3507 to1519 meet529 the Lord2962 in1519 the air109, and2532 so3779 we shall always3842 be1510 with4862 the Lord2962.

Rev 1:7 BEHOLD2400, HE IS COMING2064 WITH3326 THE CLOUDS3507, and2532 every3956 eye3788 will see3708 Him846, even2532 those who3748 pierced1574 Him846; and2532 all3956 the tribes5443 of the earth1093 will mourn2875 over1909 Him846. So it is to be281. Amen281.

Rev 11:12 And2532 they heard191 a loud3173 voice5456 from1537 heaven3772 saying3004 to them846, "Come up305 here5602." Then2532 they went up305 into1519 heaven3772 in1722 the cloud3507, and2532 their846 enemies2190 watched2334 them846.

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WildB
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Ezekiel 13:20 = The Hireling Shepherd

 -

Do not be fooled my baseball fans. Just another later-day weed seeder.


[cool_shades]

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That is all.....

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Betty Louise
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Everyone WILL NOT see Jesus during the rapture, BUT EVERYONE WILL SEE Jesus during the Second Coming.
Get your facts straight. There are two events. One is the rapture for the Church. The second is the Second Coming for judgment. The tribulation is not about judgment against the Church and that is why God will remove the Church before the tribulation. The rapture, the Church will meet Jesus in the clouds and the Second Coming Jesus will step down on earth with His feet.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

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Ezekiel 13:20
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Revelation 1:7
Behold,He cometh with CLOUDS;and every eye shall shall see Him,and they also which pierced Him:and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him.Even so,Amen

Are these rain CLOUDS also?

Better get your CLOUDS straight,or you'll wind up with the rapture CLOWNS!

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Carol Swenson
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Used ONLY in Hebrews 12:1

since we have G2192 so G5118 great G5118 a cloud G3509 of witnesses G3144 surrounding G4029 us

G3509

νέφος

nephos

Thayer Definition:

1) a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng

1a) used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapour with some form or shape

1b) a cloud in the sky

Part of Speech: noun neuter

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