Home / Christian Website Hosting / Christian Domain Names / Christian Search Engine
Rules, Policies, and Disclaimers

Christian Message Boards


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home
  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION (Page 3)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!  
This topic comprises 6 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6 
 
Author Topic: Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
wow looks like someone decided on spam


in EZE 13 the divination is the rapture doctrine

it's not in the bible

the verses that they you to push their witchcraft divinations don't line up


when you call them out on it they say it's a secret rapture which is against what the word says.


Christ died for all He returns for all to see not special people, HE said HE returns as lightning..has anyone seen this secret lightning?

NOPE it doesn't exist
DON'T BELIEVE THESE FALSE DIVINATIONS THAT SAY WE WON'T GO THROUGH THE TRIBULATION !!! THAT IS A LIE


CHRIST PLAINLY SAYS IN MATT 24 THAT HE COMES AFTER THE antiCHRIST and AFTER TRIBULATION


when satan shows up these fly aways will be fooled into taking his mark!

DON'T TAKE THE FLY AWAY MARK!

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The end-time population will not repent of their sorceries, from the Greek word "pharmakea" from which we get the word "pharmacy". So, they will not repent of their drug abuse.


Rev. 9:21


fly away is witchcraft Eze 13

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
no you did ..we WERE talking about revelations and changing the word, your trying to weasel Psalms in, ok I agree the book is written by HIM and about HIM, etc but what does that have to do with what we WERE talking about? I paraphrased Matt and you said I changed the word and was guilty of changing the word, however again that is for the book of revelations. Nice try yourself
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
no, I mean where can I find where it says any book


# Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

# Revelation 22:19
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


the bible was individual books not put together into one till much later and doesn't it say THIS book not these books? Are you guilty of the very thing you said I was? Hummmm

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 1 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The New Testament Greek Lexicon

Verse Display - Strong's Number: 726
Original Word Transliterated Word
aºrpa/zw Harpazo
Translated Words
catch, catch away, catch up

The KJV Strong's Version - 1 Verse
1Th 4:17 - [In Context|Read Chapter|Original Greek]
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
what verse can I find that in?
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 7 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Watchmen of Christ:
the story of the tares and wheat is in Matt NOT in Revelations , to change a word in the book of revelations I believe you are trying to quote that, and here's some news...even if someone did do that and they confessed and truly repented they would be forgiven. and if it comes down to that really what verse is the word rapture in? where can we find this in the Word of God?

To change a word at all in any book,

For..

Psalms 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

This is the word aºrpa/zw in greek.

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
the story of the tares and wheat is in Matt NOT in Revelations , to change a word in the book of revelations I believe you are trying to quote that, and here's some news...even if someone did do that and they confessed and truly repented they would be forgiven. and if it comes down to that really what verse is the word rapture in? where can we find this in the Word of God?
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
the lie of the rapture is to bring comfort, God HIMSELF is against the false teaching of it in eze 13, His people also didn't want to hear HE was going to put them into captivity either so they went to the diviners for comfort. Use the verses not the teachings of man. I see why Father says to not cast pearls before swine, some people just like the people of Noah's days don't believe the truth.


to the newly saved:

DO NOT BELIEVE THE devil's FLY AWAY DOCTRINE

DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FALSE CHRIST, WHO SHOWS UP FIRST DISGUISED AS CHRIST BEFORE TRUE CHRIST

IF YOU BELIEVE satan's LIE OR YOU HAVE RECEIVED THE MARK OF BELIEF IN YOUR MIND

LOOK AT THE VERSES PEOPLE QUOTE AND MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND

BE LEARY OF MAN and TEACHERS WITH NO VERSES OR WHO TWIST THE VERSES

THE TARES FLY AWAY FIRST AS THE BIBLE SAYS IT DOES CAUSE CHRIST CAN NOT LIE!

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Watchmen of Christ
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
these false teachers are not called of GOD. they try as the devil does to twist God's word , quote a little verse here and there like 1 Thess 4 the subject Paul is talking about in 17 -18 is where do the saved dead go to when we die .


13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

(them that sleep is the dead)


14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


(amen!)

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

(we can't prevent or proceed them they are there and we are headed there)


16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(yep, the dead in CHRIST rise first ,when we die we don't go into a grave as the unsaved we go to Christ as we each die amen!)


17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


(yep us here now, caught up in a cloud of witnesses, or a crowd, to meet the LORD in the air body or spiritual body)


18Wherefore comfort one another with these words


1 Thessalonians 5

1But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

( we are the children, the earth is the woman about to give birth, the labor pains are starting)


CHRIST Himself says HE returns AFTER antiChrist




Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


(false teachers try to say little titus did this in 70ad but one thing wrong with that story...How come the wailing wall is still standing? or are they trying to tell us Christ was wrong ? Not one stone MEANS not one stone)


3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


(hold on cause this IS the decoding of the book of revelations by Christ)


4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

(nuf said)


5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


(satan and his)


6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.


(does this sound familiar)

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


( how could they? if these people believe satan's lie that he is Christ and will help their loved one's will they unknowingly give up their own???)

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

(fly away , just like the people didn't want to hear God was sending them into captivity in the old testament so they asked diviners to come up with pretty words and false doctrine)


12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


(ENDURES TO THE END OF WHAT? tribulation)

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


(BINGO! that is talking of the anti Christ)


16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give **** in those days!

(pregnant by the lies of satan,instead of a spiritual chaste virgin,who rejects this oil of truth)

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

(taken out of season: tares)

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

(WHAT? as NEVER was before huh )

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


(Christ reduced the tribulation from 7 to 31/2 down to 5 months and cuts the devil short) AMEN


23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.


( false Christs and A FALSE Christ to do all kinds of tricks,even fly you around if that's what it takes)

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

(the brightness of HIS coming, in the twinkling of an eye, all the elements will burn,heaven and earth will be on fire, we will ALL be in spiritual bodies)


28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

(to eat this ole flesh from these ole bones we don't need it no more the great spiritual birth)

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


HERE IT IS >>>>NO RAPTURE
(WHEN? WHEN? AFTER THE TRIBULATION THEN CHRIST JESUS COMES TO SEE IF YOU BELIEVED satan OR ENDURED TO THE 12th HOUR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

(know the season is here)

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


(we do know the season! satan comes during the time of the locust May-sept which is exactly 5 months, after this,after the two witnesses are killed TRUE CHRIST is coming)

37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


(those same angels who left their place will be loosened see joel 2 and revelations)


40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

(see the parable of the tares and wheat..the tares are taken to be burned and the wheat are left behind with Christ)


41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


(Lord, let us all continue in You and to please You and do Your will)

47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


(that servant lost his position by his own work,he served another master, where's the once saved always saved in that?) unless the Lord's telling a lie? NO WAY impossible , better HANG on and confess and repent)

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
thefixer
Advanced Member
Member # 8837

Icon 1 posted      Profile for thefixer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by thefixer:
It's amazing how firmly entrenched each side is on the issue of Rapture. Let me state plainly that, as a servant of Jesus, it doesn't make any difference to me if I am to suffer through none, part, or all of the Tribulation. I live by the grace and will of God. If, in His wisdom, He desires me to continue doing His work on earth during that period, then IT SHALL BE DONE.
What concerns me is; what will become of those who await being raptured if the event never occurs or they are 'left behind' when others are taken? Will they be prepared to endure and withstand the assault upon their faith? Or will they succumb to accepting the 'Mark of the Beast' in exchange for a little relief.
Jesus spoke many times about being prepared for His return. It seems to me that Christians who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are not spiritually prepared for the period of tribulation in the event that the rapture does not take place as they desire. I, for one, am prepared to go where my Master tells me to go, do what He tells me to do, say what He wants me to say, and endure whatever I must all because He Loves me, I Love Him and He asks me to.
Whenever I encounter trials and difficulties in my life and think things are going bad, I look to my Master. I see His back being cut to shreds. I see Him being mocked and people spitting in His beautiful face and throwing stones at Him. I watch as He drags His cross through town, and cringe as He stumbles under the weight. My heart cries out in anguish as I hear the hammer blows driving the spikes into His flesh. All this He did for me, so that I might be able to return Home with Him. My troubles amount to nothing in comparison.
I pray that all of you, my brothers and sisters in Christ, do not have to endure the tribulation; but do NOT be unprepared to continue on with His work, even if you pay for the privilege with your pain, suffering, and even your life for His sake.
May our Lord keep you. Your brother in Christ, LeRoy (thefixer).


Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
thefixer
Advanced Member
Member # 8837

Icon 1 posted      Profile for thefixer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 

Posts: 71 | From: Yuma, Arizona | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 6 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
_I am responding to this post named (Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION) not to argue against anyone elses position, but to just take a no nonsense look at the implications of pre-trib or post-trib belief.

If you are born-again(alive unto God):

Whether the pre-trib is true or post-trib is true you are going to be with Jesus wherever/whenever He goes.

If you are unconverted(dead in trespasses/sin):

If you are told that you will get another chance to repent and be reconciled to God/or option to be martyed after Jesus raptures the church you may very well procrastinate, and if you find out it(pre-trib) was not true you were dangerously DECEIVED.

If you are told that you will not get another chance to be reconciled to God after Jesus returns(Post Trib), you MAY see it as logically foolish to procrastinate because you have no idea when Jesus is coming.

All in all, It doesnt really matter that much which view(Pre or Post trib) a Christian holds to. It matters which view the unbelieving procrastinor decides to trust in, knowing that his/her eternal destiny is at stake.

With love in Jesus, Daniel

Sorry Daniel , this is all your opinion and not Biblical.

ALSO

General Guidelines for PostingThe Christian BBS is run by a group of moderators who have volunteered to help with the site. In addition to the user agreement, topics or posts which do not follow these guidelines face the risk of being closed or deleted altogether.


#7 Don't bring up old threads. If you want to reply to an old thread (over 45 days), please start a new thread and reference the old thread.


[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532

Icon 1 posted      Profile for oneinchrist     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_I am responding to this post named (Rapture--A Dangerous DECEPTION) not to argue against anyone elses position, but to just take a no nonsense look at the implications of pre-trib or post-trib belief.

If you are born-again(alive unto God):

Whether the pre-trib is true or post-trib is true you are going to be with Jesus wherever/whenever He goes.

If you are unconverted(dead in trespasses/sin):

If you are told that you will get another chance to repent and be reconciled to God/or option to be martyed after Jesus raptures the church you may very well procrastinate, and if you find out it(pre-trib) was not true you were dangerously DECEIVED.

If you are told that you will not get another chance to be reconciled to God after Jesus returns(Post Trib), you MAY see it as logically foolish to procrastinate because you have no idea when Jesus is coming.

All in all, It doesnt really matter that much which view(Pre or Post trib) a Christian holds to. It matters which view the unbelieving procrastinor decides to trust in, knowing that his/her eternal destiny is at stake.

With love in Jesus, Daniel

Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
michaeldennis
New Member
Member # 8650

Icon 1 posted      Profile for michaeldennis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes you're right about the reward after the rapture, WildB, thank you for reclarifying that for me.

Mike

Posts: 5 | From: Grand Rapids, MI | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 6 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Judgment Seat (Bema) of Christ is about Rewards....

The Time of the Bema

This event will occur immediately following the rapture of the church after it is caught up to be with the Lord in the air as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

[rapture]

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
michaeldennis
New Member
Member # 8650

Icon 1 posted      Profile for michaeldennis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you, Betty,

I sort of felt taken unaware. I am so new to the faith and when I hear the rapture is different than I've gleaned from my limited exposure to scripture and Christian witness I am disconcerted, even more so when confronted with the idea that the rapture isn't true at all, and some, not all, of the comments about there not being a pre-trib rapture seem somewhat confrontational and intimidating. But that may be just me. Different people interpet scripture differently at times. It almost appears as a personal attack from the opposing opinion. I would also hope that those in support of the pre-trib rapture afford the same consideration to those with an opposing view. However, I realize that we as human beings, even those of us who are faithful to Christianity are most certainly not perfect and it is all too easy to become impassioned in our debate, myself no less so,and in my current state of scriptural ignorance I could come on just as strongly, in defense of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I love, and the lesson recovered from the skirmish is the realization of our all-too human frailty and need to become more like Jesus, our Saviour.

To those who are strong in their faith, trust and obeidience, and I can't yet begin to include myself in this group, the matter of the rapture should be of relatively small import, and paramount should be to take comfort in our faith and exhibit effective witness to others, whom we are called upon to witness to. I can't claim to have thought of putting it this way myself, wish I could, but are we to fear not and get back to work in God's vinyard? Our focus is to serve, as Jesus came to serve. I realize tho we should be prepared at any moment to be in our Heavenly Home, and to attend to all stewardship with the responsibility charged to us as Bible-believing Christians.

In short, our focus should be on our stewardship of servitude, not our reward, which is what the rapture is.

I hope my post doesn't seem to issue from an 11th. hour rabble rouser, but I feel dutybound to voice whatever concern I may have, and if I'm wrong, at least this can be pointed out to me early on and that I may learn from my own mistakes. I hope I have not offended anyone who reads this post.

Mike

Posts: 5 | From: Grand Rapids, MI | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes this board is a pre-trib board for the majority of members.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
michaeldennis
New Member
Member # 8650

Icon 1 posted      Profile for michaeldennis     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi,

As a new member here, and as a newbie, inexperienced Christian, may I ask if the prevailing belief here on this board is in the pre-trib rapture? It is my belief in my admittedly dearth of scriptural knowledge and experience in perusing same that the pre-trib rapture is the correct view. But, in all events, I extend to one and all my friendship in Christian brotherhood.

Mike

Posts: 5 | From: Grand Rapids, MI | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 18 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's right, and the main focus of The Tribulation is on Israel, not the Bride of Christ.
Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Burger Girl

Don't worry, you do not have to believe in the pre-trib rapture to be taken up in the rapture.
All Christians will be taken in the rapture.
God bless you.
betty

P.S. every Christian suffers trials and tribulation but The Tribulation is not about the Church but about God pouring out His wrath on the anti-Christ and the people who take the mark of the beast.

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
BurgerGirl
Community Member
Member # 8256

Icon 1 posted      Profile for BurgerGirl         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ok, I can't recall which verse it was that I saw but, I believe it stated that we will have to endure tribulation but that the days will be shortened for believers. I will try to find it and post it next time I'm here. I believe in the rapture but, according to what I've read in the KJV it will not be pre-trib.

L8R & hi Betty =o)

Posts: 18 | From: Hillsboro | Registered: Aug 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are seeing yourself. I have no fear. My faith and trust is in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. God has not given His children a spirit of fear.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 6 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by bjhulk:
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I give up. You are unteachable.
betty

God is very hard to teach when you're a sinner. In fact, he's hard to teach if you're a sinless saint.
Dude you need some serious mental adjusting.


[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 7 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I give up. You are unteachable.
betty

Carefull, the sinless saint will bury you with rocks.

I hope David drops buy soon before all thats left on the board is a sinless saint and many piles of rocks.
[happyhappy]

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I give up. You are unteachable.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The moment a Christian dies they are with Christ. Paul makes it clear that not all Christians will die some will be alive at the rapture and their bodies will be changed into glorified bodies and they will be taken up in the rapture.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 7 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
VICTORY!  - DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY!
Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Our Final Victory
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 16 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ezekiel, who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?


Summary Of Problems With Post-Tribulationism

1. The Problem of Imminency

The problem for post-tribulationists is that all the Rapture passages seem to indicate an imminent Rapture, while the Second Coming is preceded by specific events. The difficulty is in reconciling these two distinct events into one single event. Post-tribs try to solve this problem by redefining imminence as merely indicating that Christ will return soon, and argue against the idea that the Rapture could occur at any moment.

It should be noted that in several instances, Paul exhorted believers on the basis of the imminency of the Lord's return without even the slightest warning of an impending great tribulation (cf. 1 Cor. 15:51-58). Every passage that clearly refers to the Rapture has this unusual feature of exhortation which is based on the imminency of the Rapture and the absence of any warning of an intervening great tribulation.

2. The Problem of the Comforting Hope

The problem here is in harmonizing the comforting hope of 1 Thessalonians 4 with a literal great tribulation. The hope of the Rapture was extended to the Thessalonian Christians as a comfort. Paul did not warn them of a coming great tribulation.

Obviously, the Thessalonians would not have experienced much 'comfort' or 'hope' if they had to go through the great tribulation before being translated. Post-tribulationists generally try to get around this by minimizing the sufferings of the saints, and somehow insulating them from the judgments of the great tribulation.

3. The Problem of the Restrainer

Post-tribs have not adequately dealt with the restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2. They usually argue from silence by stating that Paul surely would have asserted pre-tribulationism if it were an established truth. Their logic seems to be: 'Since Paul didn't come right out and say that there would be a pre-tribulational Rapture, post-tribulationism (by the process of elimination) must be correct.' However, if the restrainer is the Holy Spirit, as pre-tribs believe, then Paul in fact did argue for a pre-trib Rapture.

4. The Problem of the Wheat and the Tares

Post-tribulationists support their view by citing Matthew 13:30, where the tares are taken up first before the wheat. However, this contradicts the post-trib sequence of events. In their view, the wicked are not dealt with finally before the Rapture. Subsequently, Matthew 13:30 does not support post-tribulationism.

5. The Problem of Intervening Events on Earth

The tribulation is a period of preparation for the Millennium. Since all believers are translated at the Rapture, this period of time is necessary to make possible a new generation of believers who will populate the Millennium in their mortal bodies.

6. The Problem of the Judgment of the Nations

The unbelievers (goats) are cast into everlasting fire by means of physical death whereas believers (sheep) enter the kingdom prepared for them - the Millennial Kingdom. The judgment of the nations is an individual judgment. It results in the purging of unbelievers out from among believers and leaves believers untouched. (Note that no one is translated or resurrected).

If there had been a post-tribulational Rapture, then believers would already be separated from unbelievers. This judgment would then be unnecessary.

7. The Problem of the "First Resurrection"

Post-tribulationists call attention to the expression "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4-6 in support of their argument. They ask how a post-tribulational resurrection could be 'first' if a Rapture had actually taken place before the tribulation? The answer is that the resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 actually occurs after the second coming of Christ and therefore contradicts the idea that the Rapture (in the post-tribulational view) is a part of the second coming of Christ from heaven to earth. Even a post-tribulationist would have to recognize that in his order of events, the resurrection of Rev. 20:4-6 is not 'first.'

8. The Problem of Terminology

Similar terminology is used for the Rapture and the Second Coming. Post-tribs thus conclude that these two events must be one. They use nontechnical terms like coming, appearing, and revelation in a technical way.

The answer to this is simply that the context must always be taken into consideration in determining how these words are to be interpreted. It is faulty logic to assume that a word must always be used in exactly the same way whenever it is used.

9. The Problem of the Book of Revelation

Post-tribulationists have no uniform interpretation of this book. Most post-tribs spiritualize the great judgments in Revelation 6-19. The widely conflicting and contradictory interpretations that Post-tribs hold to in regard to this book is ample testimony to their inadequate hermeneutics.

10. The Problem of Transition from the Tribulation to the Millennium

This problem has been touched on earlier. The basic problem is, How can saints go into the Millennium in their natural bodies if, in fact, they were Raptured while Christ was coming from heaven to earth? Their bodies would have already been glorified.

11. Additional Problems which are the Result of an Incorrect and Inconsistent Hermeneutic:

* Disagreement on the Millennium

Post-tribs do not agree as to whether premillennialism, postmillennialism, or amillennialism is the correct view. Thus post-tribulationism does not lend itself to a single eschatological system of interpretation.

* Disagreement on the Nature of the Judgments at the Second Coming of Christ

The main disagreement among post-tribs is in regard to the time and the order of these judgments. Gundry holds that the judgment of the nations and the judgment seat of Christ take place at the end of the Millennium. However, post-tribs usually lump the various judgments together at the Second Coming. If they are premil, they place the judgments before the Millennium.

* Disagreement as to a Specific Order of Events at the Time of the Second Coming

Post-tribulationists rarely offer a specific sequence of events in connection with the Second Coming of Christ. What little order they do give, they disagree with one another (e.g., compare classic, semiclassic, futurist, and dispensational post-tribulational interpretations).

* The Problem of Classic Post-tribulationism

The problem here is the impossibility of explaining all the predicted events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ as either past or contemporaneous.

* The Problems of Semiclassic Post-tribulationism

Those who hold to this view are not agreed as to how far to interpret prophecy literally.

Those who hold to this view have failed in attempting to affirm any reasonable sequence of events relating to the Second Coming.

* The Problems of Dispensational Post-tribulationism

Gundry regards the tribulation as a time of satanic wrath but not a time of divine wrath. However, Rev. 6:16 says it is a time of the "wrath of the lamb."

Gundry places the judgments at the end of the Millennium. The motivation for this seems to be that it is impossible to have a judgment of the sheep and the goats following the Second Coming of Christ if, as a matter of fact, the Rapture has taken place shortly before at the Second Advent itself.

* The Problem of the Distinction between the Church and Israel

Most post-tribs include in the church the saints of all ages. They must spiritualize scripture to accomplish this. They argue that since "saints" are in the great tribulation, the church must apparently go through it.

Gundry is the exception to this in that he attempts to distinguish between the church and Israel. (Cf. separate handout on Gundry).

* The Problem of Daniel

Post-tribulationism destroys the unity of Daniel's seventieth week, and also confuses Israel's program with that of the church.

* The Problem of Titus 2:13

Post-tribulationists have not adequately dealt with this passage where believers are exhorted to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own. If the Rapture follows the Tribulation, believers would then look for signs instead of His coming.

* The Problem of Purification

Believers are exhorted to purify themselves (1 Jn. 3:2, 3) in light of the fact that the Lord could appear at "any moment." It would not make sense for a believer to purify himself for the tribulation (which would be the case if post-tribulationism were correct).

* The Problem of John 14:1-3

At the Rapture, the church goes to the Father's house, and not back to earth again as post-tribulationists hold.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Post-tribProblems.html

Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 7 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ezekiel 13:20:
I Thessalonians 4:14 Doesn't say anything about those who were raptured,just that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

But,there are some misguided folks who try to squeeze the raptured in there.

No we don't. The Rapture comes a few verses later.  -

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Bible teaches pre trib rapture. We can rest assured that our Blessed Hope will happen.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ezekiel 13:20
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I Thessalonians 4:14 Doesn't say anything about those who were raptured,just that those who sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

But,there are some misguided folks who try to squeeze the raptured in there.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Betty Louise
Advanced Member
Member # 7175

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Betty Louise     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Equardo,

Take assurance, my brother, false teachers cannot steal our blessed Hope. Jesus will come for His Church before the Tribulation. God's wrath is not for His Children but for the anti-Christ and those who take his mark.
God bless you.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Posts: 3997 | From: Houston, Texas | Registered: May 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Eduardo Grequi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To sum this up,

Here we have Christians who believe Jesus is the Christ. The Christ being the prophesied Messiah. Jesus who had shown us the way to salvation and then commanded us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creatures. The only known intelligent creatures are human beings. After we have taught the gospel we are to baptise them in the name of Father and in the name of Son and the name of the Holy Spirit. I summize this being the name of Jesus. Eventually everyone will bow to Him whether by willing faith or forced at the judgement. So the Apostle Paul (in the book of Thessalonians) being led by the Spirit wrote the definition of the rapture.

(1Th 4:9) But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;

(1Th 4:10) and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;

(1Th 4:11) that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you,

(1Th 4:12) that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.

(1Th 4:13) But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

(1Th 4:14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

(1Th 4:15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

(1Th 4:17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Do we need to cut down, eliminate, a brother or sister of something that has yet to happen because we feel obliged to capitate someones hope by pressing a point of view that after the ponderance of scripture could happened.

Look around you the birth pains are loud and clear, propogate the gospel before it is too late. What is more valuable, a lost sheep brought home to faith or a saved one having exegetical ability of a doctrine that can go either way.

The amount of energy that is put forward on this subject: ESCHATOLOGY amazes me. If you would spend that much energy in your witness of Christ to the lost as you do the saved ones in discourse -you can move mountains of filth from a rejected lost soul.

I applaud each one of you how you present the pro's and con's on the pre-trib rapture . BUT for me I believe in the blessed hope that the Church will be raptured from the thorn of Jacob before the tribulation.

If the rapture occurs before the small tribulation or the first 3 1/2 years then it is a pre-trib rapture or after the first 3 1/2 years
then it is not called a pre-trib rapture.

So lets comfort each other as the Lord wants and not knife each other to unwanting fustration.

(Jas 5:7) Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain.

(Jas 5:8) You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

(Jas 5:9) Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

(Jas 5:10) My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience.

(Jas 5:11) Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

(Jas 5:12) But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your "Yes" be "Yes," and your "No," "No," lest you fall into judgment.

(Jas 5:13) Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.

(Jas 5:14) Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

(Jas 5:15) And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

(Jas 5:16) Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

(Jas 5:17) Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain; and it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

(Jas 5:18) And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth produced its fruit.

(Jas 5:19) Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,

(Jas 5:20) let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.


So come Lord Jesus!

Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bloodbought
Advanced Member
Member # 4365

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Bloodbought     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Although the pretribulation rapture doctrine is very popular and is even considered so crucial to Christianity that it is made a test of a person’s orthodoxy in some denominations, Bible colleges and seminaries, the exegetical and theological arguments used by its advocates are all classic cases of forcing one’s theological presuppositions onto particular texts (eisegesis). . . .
The teaching of a secret pretribulation rapture is a doctrine that never existed before 1830. Did the pretribulation rapture come into existence by a careful exegesis of Scripture? No. The first person to teach the doctrine was a young woman named Margaret Macdonald. Margaret was not a theologian or Bible expositor but was a prophetess in the Irvingite sect (the Catholic Apostolic Church). . . . Margaret’s views were well-known to those who visited her home, among them John Darby of the Brethren. Within a few months her distinctive prophetic outlook was mirrored in the September, 1830 issue of The Morning Watch and the early Brethren assembly at Plymouth, England. Early disciples of the pre-trib interpretation often called it a new doctrine.
John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), who was the leader of the Brethren movement and the “father of modern Dispensationalism,” took Margaret Macdonald’s new teaching on the rapture, made some changes (she taught a partial rapture of believers while he taught that all believers would be raptured) and incorporated it into his Dispensational understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Darby would spend the rest of his life speaking, writing and traveling, spreading the new rapture theory.
The Plymouth Brethren openly admitted and were even proud of the fact that among their teachings were totally new ones which had never been taught by the church fathers, medieval scholastics, Protestant Reformers or the many commentators.
The person most responsible for the rather widespread acceptance of Pretribulationalism and Dispensationalism among Evangelicals is Cyrus Ingerson Scofield (1843-1921). C. I. Scofield published his Scofield Reference Bible in 1909. This Bible, which espoused the doctrines of Darby in its notes, became very popular in Fundamentalist circles. In the minds of many a Bible teacher, fundamentalist pastor and multitudes of professing Christians, Scofield’s notes were practically equated with the word of God itself. . . .
Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today . . . we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord

http://samuelatgilgal.wordpress.com/2010/05/12/what%E2%80%99s-wrong-with-the-pretribulation-rapture-doctrine/

Posts: 822 | From: Ireland | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 6 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why The Pre-Wrath Rapture Theory Is Wrong

Robert Van Kampen was the inventor of the three-quarters rapture theory in the late 1970s. According to one who was there, he first eliminated pretribulationism and then excluded posttribulationism. Thus, he had to come up with another view. That view is what he called the "pre-wrath" rapture theory. That title is a misnomer, since pretribulationism is 100% pre-wrath. If we follow consistency in labeling, Van Kampen's view should be called the three-quarters rapture position, since he teaches that the church will be raptured somewhere in the middle of the last three and a half years of the 70th week of Daniel.

Van Kampen spent a number of years searching for an advocate of his newly developed viewpoint until he was finally able to persuade Marvin Rosenthal to adopt and champion his new theory. I have a friend who was interviewed extensively by Van Kampen (in the 80s) for the pastorate of the church he attended in the Chicago area. My friend spent hours on the phone with Van Kampen, as he tried to convince him of his strange rapture view. In the end, my friend could not agree with Van Kampen. It was clear that Van Kampen was searching for someone to champion his rapture position. Rosenthal wrote a book called The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church, which was published by Thomas Nelson in 1990. Later Van Kampen came out with his own book called The Sign (three editions, 1992, 1999, 2000) from Crossway Books. He then had published The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple (1997) with Revell.


What Is The Three-Quarters Rapture Theory?

Van Kampen's three-quarters rapture view is a blend of midtribulational and posttribulational rationale. Instead of seeing the 24 terms describing the 70th week of Daniel as denoting various characteristics of a single period, Van Kampen chops them into compartmental segments that contain either the wrath of man and Satan or the wrath of God. Through redefinition, Van Kampen limits the wrath of God to the final year and three-quarters of the seven-year period and deduces that the rapture occurs right before that time period. Van Kampen distinguishes the rapture and the second coming with a gap of one and three-quarters years between them. He has the church continuing through the first three-quarters of the tribulation until the three-quarters point rapture occurs.

Van Kampen's theory requires several unique features concerning the church and the tribulation. First, he chops the seventieth week of Daniel into three parts: 1) the beginning of birth pangs (first three and a half years), 2) the great tribulation (first half of the second half of the seven years), 3) the day of the Lord (last half of the second half of the seven years, plus a thirty day period after the second coming). By arbitrarily compartmentalizing the 70th week of Daniel in this way, Van Kampen prepares the way for his view by saying that the first two period (first three-quarters of the seven-year period) is the wrath of man and Satan but not God's wrath. By speculating that God's wrath only occurs during the last quarter of the 70th week of Daniel, he concludes that the rapture occurs at that point and keeps the church out of the wrath of God.


Some Reasons Why Van Kampen's Theory Is Wrong

This view of the rapture is not only built upon faulty interpretation of the Bible, but also upon flawed data and logic. In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal released the first published expression of the Van Kampen rapture view in all of history. I read and detected many problems with the book. Rosenthal made the following statement: "The Greek word thlipsis, translated tribulation or affliction in many English Bibles, occurs twenty times in the New Testament" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 103). My concordance showed that it actually occurs 45 times. Why had he not even considered over half of the New Testament references?

The point that Rosenthal was attempting to make when he committed such a glaring factual error was that the word "tribulation" is never used to refer to the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 103-08). This is not the case since Matthew 24:9 is an instance where "tribulation" (KJV = "afflicted") refers to the first half of Daniel's 70th week. Dr. John McLean explains:


Rosenthal has not only overstated his case but has stated as true fact that which is clearly false. A cursory reading of a Greek concordance reveals that the word "tribulation" (thlipsis) is used in prophetic contexts to refer to both the first and second halves of the seventieth week of Daniel. Matthew 24:9, which chronologically relates to the first half of the seventieth week as evidenced by its preceding the midpoint of the abomination of desolation (Matt. 24:15-21) states: "Then they will deliver you to tribulation (thlipsis), and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name" (NASB). Clearly the biblical text describes the first half of the seventieth week as a time of tribulation.

The second half of the seventieth week is also described as a time of tribulation. Second Thessalonians 1:6 uses the Greek word thlipsin while referring to the second coming of Christ which occurs during the second half of the seventieth week of Daniel: "For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction (thlipsin) those who afflicted you" (NASB). Therefore, it is proper and even biblical to refer to, and even describe, the seventieth week of Daniel as "The Tribulation," or "A Time of Tribulation."



Interestingly, Rosenthal restricts thlipsin "tribulation" to simply trials to be experienced (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 237), while at the same time locating such tribulation in the first half of Daniel's 70th week (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 152). Like Dr. McLean and pretribulationists, Rosenthal equates Matthew 24:9 with the fifth seal judgment as stated in Revelation 6:9-11. Yet if Rosenthal admits the obvious logical conclusion-that the tribulation in Matthew 24:9 is the tribulation-then it would provide another reason that contradicts his new view and would support pretribulationism.


God's Wrath

Van Kampen defines only the final quarter of Daniel's 70th week as the only time of God's wrath. He sees the first three quarters as the wrath of man and Satan. But does the Bible make such distinctions? It does not!


Wrath in Zephaniah

Zephaniah 1:14-18 heaps together a cluster of terms that characterize the future Day of the Lord. Verse 14 labels this time as "the great day of the Lord" and "the day of the Lord." Then verse 15-18 describe this time with the following descriptions: "that day is a day of wrath," "a day of trouble and distress," "a day of wasteness and desolation," "a day of darkness and gloominess," "a day of clouds and thick darkness," "a day of the trumpet and alarm," "I will bring distress upon men," and "the day of the Lord's wrath." The context supports the notion that all these descriptives apply to the Day of the Lord. Such biblical usage does not allow an interpreter to chop the Day of the Lord into compartmental segments as Van Kampen insists. The text plainly says that the Day of the Lord is a time of both tribulation and God's wrath. All of the many descriptives in this passage provide a characterization of the Day of the Lord that applies to the entire seven-year period. The Zephaniah passage clearly contradicts the basis upon which Van Kampen attempts to build his recently developed theory. Zephaniah is not alone in providing an obstacle to the Van Kampen speculation.

 - Wrath in Revelation


Revelation 6:1-17 records the six seal judgments, which are the first reported judgments of the tribulation. Revelation 6 and the seal judgments also contradict the Van Kampen formulation since the Bible describes all six judgments as ". . . the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come . . ." (Rev. 6:16c-17a). Even though Van Kampen cannot recognize God's wrath, the unbelievers at the beginning of the seven-year tribulation will be able to. Revelation 5 reveals that only the Lamb (Christ) was qualified to open the seals that would begin the first judgments of the tribulation. As we connect the dots of Revelation 5 and 6, there is no basis for saying that the events of the seal judgments are somehow disconnected from Scripture's characterization as God's wrath. The following observations about the seal judgments support such a connection:


• The Lamb is the Individual Who breaks, and thus initiates, all six of the seals (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12) clearly indicating that He (God) is the source of the events or wrath. These are explicit references to the wrath of God, not the wrath of man or Satan as taught by Van Kampen.


• One quarter of the earth's population is killed (Rev. 6:8).


• The fifth seal reveals that multitudes of Christian martyrs are slain as a result of seal activity, which has to be considered the wrath of the Lamb. God allows this to occur when the Lamb breaks the seal in this part of the seal judgments.


• At the end of the six seal judgments an assessment is given as follows: "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev. 6:16-17). "Him that sitteth on the throne" is God the Father as indicated in chapter 4, thus it is clearly God's wrath. It is also the Lamb's wrath (Christ). The passage clearly says "the great day of his wrath is come," meaning that all six of the seal judgments are classified as God's wrath.


Van Kampen attempts to say that the events of the seal judgments are not really "God's" wrath, but the wrath of man. Rosenthal declares, "The word wrath occurs eight times in the book of Revelation. All eight occurrences follow the opening of the sixth seal. The word wrath is never used in connection with the first five seals" (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, p. 176). Rosenthal neglects to tell his readers that Revelation 6:16-17 is a summary statement of all the previous seal judgments. In spite of the Van Kampen claim to follow the plain interpretation of the text (Van Kampen, Rapture Question, p. 23-24.), I believe that Revelation 6:16-17 relates to all six seal judgments for the following reasons: First, Revelation 6:15-17 is an overall report of the human response to God's judgment as administered through all six seal judgments. A similar evaluation is recorded after the trumpet judgments in Revelation 9:20-21. This argues in favor of associating this report with the preceding seal judgments.

Second, the controlling verb in verse 17, "is come" (�lthen), "is aorist indicative, referring to a previous arrival of the wrath, not something that is about to take place" Rosenthal's attempt to say that this verb is a future aorist (Rosenthal, Pre-Wrath, pp. 166-67), cannot be supported by the context. Such contextual support is necessary to adopt his unusual use of the aorist indicative. Further, if a future look were intended by the verb then John most likely would have used the future tense. Such stress and strain in biblical interpretation demonstrates the forced notion that Van Kampen's new invention is not the product of sound biblical exegesis.

Third, Revelation 5 narrates a heavenly scene of Christ pictured as a slain, but victorious Lamb. The Lamb is pictured as worthy to open the seals on a scroll, which result in judgment-the judgment described in the succeeding chapter as the seal judgments. In chapter 6, each one of the seal judgments commences as a result of the Lamb's breaking of each seal (Revelation 6:1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12). Since all six seal judgments begin the same way, with the breaking of the seal by the Lamb, one should not be at all surprised that Revelation 6:16-17 summarizes all six judgments as "the wrath of the Lamb," and "the great day of his wrath." This cannot be the wrath of man or Satan.

The above information provides ample biblical proof that all six seal judgments are the wrath of God (Lamb). Since all six seal judgments are designated in Scripture as God's wrath it means that the entire 70th week of Daniel is called the wrath of God in Revelation 6. Therefore, this passage does not support the Van Kampen interpretation. Since the church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God (Rom. 5:9, 1 Thess. 1:10, 5:9, and Rev. 3:10), it is clear in light of Revelation 6 that the church will be raptured before the seventieth week of Daniel.


Conclusion

The above points are just a few of the errors that can be noted about Van Kampen's theory. As he demonstrates in his writings, if one errs at this crucial point then it paves the way for faulty conclusions. It should be clear that Van Kampen must resort to strained characterizations of things like the day of the Lord, the tribulation, and the scope of God's wrath in order to first avoid pretribulationism and then to support his new rapture view. Bible believing Christians should continue to draw strength and hope from the fact that our Lord could rapture His church at any moment. We will not be left standing when our Lord moves history to the point of the commencement of the seven-year tribulation. Maranatha!

Thomas Ice
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/three-quarters-rapture-theory

Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 7 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Alright Big C I stand down.

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 7 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
I am posting a legitimate series of posts here all biblical. You incite me to stop based on... well nothing to counter my points thus far other than you simply don't agree with it or do not understand it... so you impugn me even with veiled threats you try to silence me. I have broken no board rules but you have. And Carol is not Mommy, but a board moderator. I am simply asking her to do her job.

Personally, I love charts and graphs and pictures. And, although I don't agree with pre-wrath, I think you have the right to believe in it and write about it.

But you should not say things like:

quote:
I guess it's true, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.


We don't "drink" your theory because we don't agree with it. We understand it John, but we don't agree with it. No matter how many times you post your chart, (you've posted it about five times now).

When it comes to WildB, it's up to you to win him over if you can. I can't do it for you. He isn't called wild for nothing.

He said a real born again Christian doesn't need graphs and whistles for direction.

quote:
A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.


You said, (on another post),

quote:
"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."

He's just pointing out that your chart is one of the props / crutches you said we shouldn't need.
Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Hale
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am posting a legitimate series of posts here all biblical. You incite me to stop based on... well nothing to counter my points thus far other than you simply don't agree with it or do not understand it... so you impugn me even with veiled threats you try to silence me. I have broken no board rules but you have. And Carol is not Mommy, but a board moderator. I am simply asking her to do her job.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 6 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by John Hale:
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Mr J,

Its really not that important.

Go experiment on another board, you are

showing your sillyness side.

A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

You say,

"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."


I really dont give a care what YOU think. Personally, I would take u behind the boiler and show you some fire. LOL.

Stop corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ.

[cool_shades]

Carol?
Mommy?


My Friend please stop your sillyness.

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Hale
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Mr J,

Its really not that important.

Go experiment on another board, you are

showing your sillyness side.

A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

You say,

"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."


I really dont give a care what YOU think. Personally, I would take u behind the boiler and show you some fire. LOL.

Stop corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ.

[cool_shades]

Carol?
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 6 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr J,

Its really not that important.

Go experiment on another board, you are

showing your sillyness side.

A Real BAC needs not grafts and whistels for direction.

You say,

"There is no shame in this... LOL so long as you set out to become so acquainted with the Holy Spirit you no longer need the props / crutches..."


I really dont give a care what YOU think. Personally, I would take u behind the boiler and show you some fire. LOL.

Stop corrupting the simplicity that is in Christ.

[cool_shades]

--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 7 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes! Thank you!
Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Hale
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
better?
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Hale
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I tried to but it wouldn't work. I thought maybe you'd solved this problem.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Carol Swenson     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
John

I appreciate that you used the code I asked you to, but the reason I gave you that code is so you can easily reduce the width and height of your charts to fit the Christian BBS threads.

879 X 594

Posts: 6772 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
John Hale
unregistered


Icon 1 posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 


I guess it's true, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

All three camps of eschatology are present in this interpretation. It used to puzzle me how all three contradictory eschatological views could quote scripture (since the Word of God is infallible).

Then it occurred to me... all three camps are correct.

It was the setting / time frame that everyone got wrong.

The 70th Week of Daniel is unmistakably a seven year period of time. But it is only the false presumption that people interpret the great tribulation to be a full seven years long.

From Daniel and Revelation it is prophesied to be three and a half years long.

Daniel 12:7 (NIV)
7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.”


Revelation 12:14 (NIV)
14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.

Revelation 11:2 (NIV)
2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Revelation 13:5 (NIV)
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

And the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel:

Revelation 11:3 (NIV)
3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Revelation 12:6 (NIV)
6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Rather than falling into the unfounded tradition of one seven-year tribulation, rightly dividing the 70th Week of Daniel into two three-and-a-half-year tribulations (plural)... all three camps are correct.

The rapture will occur in the middle of the 70th Week of Daniel prior to the great tribulation in the latter half of the 70th Week of Daniel and after the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel when a tribulation of believers will take place.

Revelation 12:17 (NIV)
17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 13:5-10 (NIV)
5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.
6 He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven.
7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.
8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
9 He who has an ear, let him hear.
10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

Isaiah 26:19-20 (NIV)
19 But your dead will live; their bodies will rise. You who dwell in the dust, wake up and shout for joy. Your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by.

Daniel 70 [rapture] th Week

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917

Icon 6 posted      Profile for WildB   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bloodbought:
In Noah’s time, which came first, the raising of the ark or the wrath of the rain poured out on the wicked? They came together. It makes no sense to say that the ark was lifted before judgment fell.


What came 1st is Noah's Faith in the Word of God and it was this Faith that lifted the ark out of the gopher wood, which took 120 years.

The water existed in the firmaments from creation for the Lords 1st Judgement as does the fire for the 2nd.

2 Petter 3

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


--------------------
That is all.....

Posts: 8066 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator



This topic comprises 6 pages: 1  2  3  4  5  6 
 
Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:

Contact Us | Christian Visual Media | Privacy Statement



Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0