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Author
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Topic: Faith And Presumption
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Actually what happens whenever something like this happens, satan is trying to frustrate and discourage people from the true power of God. It is an attempt by bbub to make God a liar. What could do more harm than for someone to misread the intentions of God? What can do more damage to one's faith, and that of those around him? But there is a clue. Scripture says to 'obey every ordinance of man'. That was reasonably determinable in this case. And God, if He was going to heal, would have allowed the one who was to receive 'the gift of healing', to demonstrate the power of God. It was not incumbent upon the one wanting healing for that one to demonstrate it.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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The Beauty of Holiness777
Advanced Member
Member # 7380
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posted
Larry for a preacher, Evangelist or whoever to tell you that God will heal your son and not to give him anymore insulin was a trick of satan. You see when we ask God to do things satan also hears what we ask. This is why we must know when something is of God and when it's not and taking the insulin from your son was not of God.
Healing may have been in store for your son, but to take the insulin away from him at that present time was not wise. It's like you were saying God I want my son healed now not later. As I stated before there are times when God does Miracle Healings and there are times God heals gradually. But it's in His Time not ours.
No one likes to see their children or other love ones sick. But to take advantage of people in their weakest moments telling them to have faith and remove the very thing that is keeping their love ones alive at that point is a criminal offense by the law of God and man.
I totally agree with Daniel.
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In God I'am Complete.
I am a "Spiritual Being" living in a physical body.
{Prayer - a force that reaches people and places when we can't}
Posts: 192 | From: God's Universe | Registered: Sep 2008
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Larry Parker
Advanced Member
Member # 7468
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posted
WildB
Check out my new post "What Is Faith."
God bless, Larry
Posts: 22 | From: Barstow, California | Registered: Nov 2008
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Oh Larry,
I am so sorry that you let your direction be set by another persons interpretation's.
Have you not read that some did not?
Heb.11
[1] Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
[2] For by it the elders obtained a good report.
[3] Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
[4] By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
[6] But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
[10] For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[11] Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
[12] Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
[13] These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
[14] For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
[15] And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
[16] But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
[25] Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
[26] Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
[27] By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
[28] Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
[29] By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
[30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
[31] By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
[33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
[34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
[35] Women received their dead raised to life again:
and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
[36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Larry Parker
Advanced Member
Member # 7468
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posted
Hello again Daniel,
When my son died my reaction was to believe that it must be because God wanted to do a greater miracle such as raising him from the dead. The "resurrection" funeral was my idea.
God bless,
Larry
Posts: 22 | From: Barstow, California | Registered: Nov 2008
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Larry,
Actually I did have one more question. Do you think, when you look back now, that it is possible that the evangelist who headed that church you attended staged the "resurrection" funeral in a desperate attempt to cover himself?........because the only other option for him would have been to have admitted the falseness of the healing claim and thus become implicated in your sons death. Its just a thought that came to my mind after I read an article on your story.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
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posted
Mistakes will be made in the name of faith. It is part of the learning process. It can be utterly painful. But there is some 'trial and error' involved in matters of faith. One is well advised however to perpetually consider each matter that is before him, and not to have such 'resolution' as is often found, unless there is wind behind it. And if it is God, there will be wind behind it. Or another way to look at it is that they will be 'led'. For HE says, "My sheep know my voice." Yet when we 'want' to believe something, we are not necessarily listening to His voice.
There is a breaking process wherein we are humbled (caused to be humbled) to know His voice, as we 'deny' ourselves, which is not so easy to do. That I believe, is what you are labling 'presumption', where we are not denying ourselves, but rather presuming based purely upon 'want'. In other words, our will interferes.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi again Larry,
I could see how someone of the influence that you were under could pass off hyperglycaemic hallucinations as the devil. My mother who is diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia I had once thought was under the influence of the devil. Later down the road I came to find that my moms mother was a heavy drinker even while she was pregnant with my mom and that my mother was sexually abused by her father. That seemed to better explain why she is the way she is. Now I do still believe that the devil has influence in this world, but I think discernment is needed as to how it relates to mental disorder or disease.
Thank you for being bold in sharing your testimony. I am looking foward to more fellowshipl
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Larry Parker
Advanced Member
Member # 7468
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posted
Daniel,
To my shame, yes we claimed the healing for our son despite a continuance of his insulin dependent symptoms. We thought that the symptoms were a lie of satan trying to steal our son’s healing. We thought we had to ignore the symptoms and continue to claim the healing as being done; that the symptoms were a test of our faith.
The great problem with that kind of teaching is that people deny reality thinking they are believing God rather than the symptoms. They think that just because they asked God for a healing He must do it; misusing the scripture 1 Peter 2:24, “… by whose stripes you were healed.” And Matthew 21:22, “And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.” These scriptures are taught out of context to people who then believe they must not believe what they see contrary to what they are praying for.
God bless,
Posts: 22 | From: Barstow, California | Registered: Nov 2008
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Hi Larry,
Did you accidently miss my first question above, or is it a question that you had rather not answer? The reason that I am asking the question is because I have a hard time believing that you would have claimed the healing and then afterwards chosen to deny the reality of your sons insulin dependent symptoms. I would then say that the danger in that type of faith teaching is that it could easily lead people into denying reality. Why wouldnt the ones who taught you that stuff also be in the courtroom? or were they?
You may Private Message me if you desire.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Larry Parker
Advanced Member
Member # 7468
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posted
Daniel,
You asked,
"Are you saying that you claimed the healing for your son despite a continuance of his insulin dependent symptoms? How does that type of teaching not land church leaders in the courtroom?"
The answer is it does. My wife and I were arrest and put on trial. Our (out of print) book "We Let Our Son Die" tells the story of our subsequent trial and conviction for involuntary manslaughter and felony child abuse. However, the Lord, in His mercy, had the Judge overturn the verdict two years later. In 1988, Republic Pictures made the story into a CBS TV movie called "Promised a Miracle."
God bless,
Larry
Posts: 22 | From: Barstow, California | Registered: Nov 2008
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oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
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posted
Larry,
Are you saying that you claimed the healing for your son despite a continuance of his insulin dependent symptoms? How does that type of teaching not land church leaders in the courtroom?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
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Larry Parker
Advanced Member
Member # 7468
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posted
To ask God for a healing and say that you know He will take care of you is faith. To claim that you are healed when you still have the symptoms of illness is presumption (and a lie). To ask God for a new car and know that He will provide one is faith. To claim you have a new car when you are still driving your old clunker is presumption. To ask God for a new house and know that He will provide one is faith. To claim you have a new house when you are still renting is presumption. To trust God to provide for your needs is faith. To claim you are rich and have money that is not in your bank account is presumption. To quote scriptures that give you hope is faith. To quote God’s words back to Him as a means to get something you want is presumption. To use scripture to demand whatever you want from God is not faith. To name what you want and then claim it is not faith. It is presumptuous to claim that God will do something when He has not yet told you He will do it.
Posts: 22 | From: Barstow, California | Registered: Nov 2008
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