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Originally posted by wparr:

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Originally posted by Aaron:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by WildB:
[qb]

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

How did Messiah choose the apostles?

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Originally quoted post by me!

I have always thought of it as you do wparr, or whomever said this. Carol has a point worth thinking about. I do not know how to appropiate this though, except to think still, that the Apostles did not act out of the Spirit's 'leading', but out of 'works'; that is, self determination. I still cling to the notion that God knew that a replacement would be needed, and God knew that Paul would be on the Damascus road. And Paul was in God's timing.

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concerning woolb
[QUOTE] Of coarse your right about disputing and gossiping over other ministries/people.

But that is not what is happening here.

Exposing False Teaching helps the saved soul from missing the mark and the other lost souls from eternal damnation.

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• Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
U´rim and Thummim
“lights and perfections”

Into the breastplate of the high priest were placed “the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be over Aaron’s heart when he goes in before the Lord” (Exodus 28:30). These formed the medium through which the high priest ascertained the will of Jehovah in regard to any important matter affecting the theocracy (Numbers 27:21). Even such early writers as Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis do not furnish any precise information as to what the Urim and Thummim really were. On every side we meet confessions of ignorance.

But do you agree that it is the will of our Lord Jesus Christ we pray to Him for - there is no power in these objects in and of themselves?

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In the early Latter Day Saint movement, seer stones were used as method of divination and played a significant role in its history and theology. Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, owned several seer stones from his earlier career as a "money digger."[1] Other early Mormons such as Hiram Page, David Whitmer and Jacob Whitmer also owned seer stones.[2] Seer stones are mentioned in the Book of Mormon and in other Latter Day Saint scriptures. James Strang, who claimed to be Joseph Smith's designated successor, also unearthed what he said were ancient metal plates and translated them using seer stones.

Seer Stones and the Urim and Thummim

Main article: Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)

In translating the Book of Mormon from the Golden Plates, Smith said he used "Interpreters", a pair of crystals joined in the form of a large pair of spectacles, which he later referred to as the "Urim and Thummim." In 1823 Smith said that an angel told him of the existence of Golden Plates, along with which would be found "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates.[9] (His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like: "two smooth three-cornered diamonds.")[10] Smith and his early Mormon contemporaries seem to have used the terms "seer stone" and "Urim and Thummim" interchangeably. Although Smith always referred to the Book of Mormon "interpreters" as the Urim and Thummim, he may or may not have intended to make a distinction between that device and the seer stones that he used in scrying.[11]

In 1827 Smith was revisited by the angel who revealed the location of these objects buried in a hillside. After translating the Book of Mormon Smith returned the plates and the Urim and Thummim to the angel, whom he identified as the resurrected Moroni. Joseph Smith reportedly told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was an inexperienced translator, but that as he grew in experience he no longer needed such assistance.[12]

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there is no power in these objects in and of themselves?

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Except for a FALSE divination now that Christ is raised..

Ezekiel 14:1-11
Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Shall we all go about to search for these Urim and Thurimin, so that we may know the will of the Lord now?!!?

Ezekiel 12:11
Say, I am your sign: like as I have done, so shall it be done unto them: they shall remove and go into captivity.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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What Happened to LSM-LC-Lee?

HAVE We FETTERED & IMPRISONED
The SPIRIT of REVIVAL?
by T. Austin Sparks

From the latter days of the Apostles till now, the history of Christianity is a history of prisons. This history is not of literal or material prisons, though there have been not a few of these. It is a history of prisons, which are the result of man's long established habit of bringing the Spirit into bondage.

How many times has the Spirit broken loose and moved in a new and free way only to have that way brought under man's control and crystallized into another form, creed, organization, denomination, sect, order, community, or the like! The invariable result has been that the Spirit's free movement and life has been cramped or even killed by the prison of the framework into which He has been drawn or forced.

Have I Fettered the Spirit's Fire with Religious Tradition?

Every time we seek to express something divine in word or form, we at once limit it. When that expression or form becomes the established and recognized formula, we have, in effect, put fetters on the Spirit. God gives a vision, and every God-given vision has unlimited potential and possibilities. But all too soon the vision is laid hold of by men who never received it by the Spirit. Then the grapes of Eschol turn to raisins in their hands. So very many of the living fruits of the heavenly country have suffered in this way and become dried, shrunken, and unctionless shadows of their early glory.

Successors, sponsors, or adherents build an earthly organization on a living movement of the Spirit, born with fire in the heart of some prophet. They imprison the vision in a tradition. A message becomes a creed; a heavenly vision becomes an earthly institution; a movement of the Spirit becomes a work, which must be kept going by the steam of human energy and maintained by man's resourcefulness.

Any real (or seeming) departure or diversion from the recognized and traditional order of creed or practice will sooner or later become heresy, to be violently suspected, repressed, and cast out. What was, at its beginning, a spiritual energy-producing a living organism, expressing something that God really wanted and to which He gave birth has too often become something which the next generation has to sustain and struggle hard at to keep going. The thing has developed a self-interest, and it will go hard with anyone or anything interfering or seeming to interfere with it. The Spirit has become the prisoner of the institution or system, and as a result the people become limited spiritually.

How Did I Get Where I Am?

Why is all this so true, resulting in strain, divisions, jealousies, rivalries, and often deception? If there is any remedy, what is it? The answer is to be found in an honest and fundamental question: Why am I where I am? Did I enter into something objectively? Was it something already formed, presented to me with an appeal, an argument, a need? Was it real at all? Or did the Spirit open the eyes of my heart and give me a heavenly vision, which on one side made me cry, "Woe is me," and on the other, "Here am I"? Was it a life-crisis? Did I take up a teaching, a complexion of truth, a work, an enterprise? Was I at the very source of life? Was it a definite and overpowering apprehending from heaven? Is my position that of a relationship to something from which I can resign? In a word, is my imprisonment that of a system or order of an outward kind? Or am I the bond-slave of the Spirit?

The Apostle Paul, in particular, shows that the former bondage or imprisonment can even be what he calls "the letter." In this sense, the Bible can be death ("the letter killeth"-2 Cor. 3:6). Not that we can have the Spirit and the life without the Word, but it can most certainly be the other way around. For we can definitely have the Word without the Spirit and the life.

What Will it Cost Me to Move Forward?

It is seriously important that everything, including us be kept continuously in touch with the original source of life. Succession and continuation is not ecclesiastical, traditional, or of human choice and decision. Continuation is certainly not policy, nor expediency, nor fear. Continuation is anointing-the anointed eye, ear, hand, and foot. It is a fire in the bones, not the obligations of a profession, association, or idea.

The Spirit must have initiated our course and position. All along the way the Spirit must be referred to and deferred to. In anything in which the Spirit may have His liberties limited, the Spirit will be a rebel. And if He is in us, He will make us to rebel against unspiritual restrictions. This does not for a moment mean that all rebellion and the bid for what is called liberty is of the Spirit. It just means that in the realm of nature we are broken people, robbed of a power to fight for our own conceptions.

So it becomes simply an issue of imprisonment either to the Spirit or to something else. It must be at the greatest cost, and because the Spirit has done a deep and drastic thing in us, "Here am I; I can do no other. So help me God."

Reference used: A Witness and a Testimony by T. Austin Sparks

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Leeist Letter addressed to Troy Brooks:

Dear brother,
As you have stated in you email, I would also like to ask you something: Please stop sending us all these emails of yours, because it just fills our inboxes with redundant emails. What we are talking here about is the economy of God, and not our thinking. God wants us to be the new creation, not how we think that there will be in the new city....and so on. Please go before the Lord and repent, and then consider your ways. The Lord wants to gain our beings and deal with them so that we are no longer our own and do not speak from our own thoughts, but speak from the spirit of our mind, our mind being mingled with our spirit.
We are happy to have you as our brother, if you have the same life and the same Spirit as we, but the fact remains:
The Lord is with our spirit, and is spreading in us. Let us not undermine Him by our thoughts, but come to the Word and enjoy Him there until we are saturated with His thinking. And this is not redundant, but....
But we still know in part, and we do not promote ourselves nor any organization, but the Christ we enjoy, which is our portion.
In you email there was no Christ: there was the restless mind that tried to influence us to think the same way as you. We still expect to receive more insight, because the Lord is much more than we can think or comprehend.

I speak in my name, and so, please, if you do have some growth of Christ that you want to bring as a portion for us to enjoy, just come. If not, do labor on the good land. The email can be used to try to influence others, but it can also be used to bring others into God and share our enjoyment of His person with others.

The Lord be with your spirit, brother!
Stefan

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My Response - You are not a God-man. It is redundant to believe a lie. I am careful not to send redundant information. You are not talking about the economy of God but your own thinking. There are groups around the world that have their own thinking. God wants you in the new creation and to know God's foreknowledge knows how many will be in the new creation, for you to know approximately, that is why God has given you the size of the new city and letting you know it is a narrow path, not a wide path (we will reach the new city since that is what Abraham was looking for) like a little harlot such as Leeism of which there are many. You need to repent before the Lord and seek His deliverance to deliver you from the unsaved man Witness Lee who possesses you with the same evil spirit that resided in him. An example of such false nomenclature that shows you are no longer your own but that of Witness Lee is your statement "but speak from the spirit of our mind, our mind being mingled with our spirit". This proves there is something wrong with your nomenclature and thus your spirit since you do not speak from the spirit of your mind since your mind is of your soul not of your spirit. It is like saying your spirit is your soul. It is not. That is wrong. And similarly we do not mingle our spirit and soul in confusion. That is part of the mingling confusion of Leeism. You need to read Watchman Nee's The Spiritual Man again but not from Living Stream Ministry. That is where the lie starts in Leeism. Lee knew this. It was necessary for Lee to break from the true dividing of spirit, soul and body (Heb. 4.12, 1 Thess. 5.23) and replace it with shouting and screaming violently and mingling just like Pentecostals do with their false Babel tower within. I can not accept you as a brother because you do not have the same life and the same Spirit of the Holy Spirit. In order for God to save you God has Christians such as myself rebuke these false beliefs in your life. I have not quarantined you, since that is a Leeist false nomenclature, having a prideful flavor. What I have done is cast you out the church in order that you may yet be saved. If you walk away from Leeism this will show me you have the same Spirit, but not beforehand. Promoting yourself and suing for yourself or the company you represent (LSM) and saying you are not is double speak duplicity. The Lord recognizes this duplicity and says He does not know you. I am not trying to influence you as one would sue another nor do I care to push you for salvation, since all God has asked me to do for you and the LSM people, is to give you the free-choice to come to Christ, and the truth of your mistaken assumptions. Nor am I restless, but the Lord gave me this email for you and about 300 Leeists because the Holy Spirit has led me to do it. Accept this wonderful free gift of discernment. Hath an ear to hear because God does want to save you. Your response is restless and an attempt at influence of me into the Leeists system. It is so clear. Often we are reflection of that which we accuse others of, and so this is but your condition reflected back onto you in your own restlessness, and frustration and attempt at influence. Come to Christ, really, not for pretended faith in shouting. But John 6.47. You are accepted into the body of Christ as a true believer, yet to overcome though, when you walk away from Leeism. I know this is hard for you to understand, but when you walk away from Leeism it is saying you are not willing to believe in the world systems of Christendom and the false outward churches like LSM-LC. It shows your faith in Christ if you can walk away from Leeism. Often this is how God will give a believer eternal life. For that very act itself of walking away will give you eternal life because it shows you really do believe according to John 6.47. I will pray for you for this movement of Christ to enter into your spirit and you willingness (non-calvinistically) to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior as He really is. For you this is a Pascal's Wager. Such is the love of Jesus Christ.

Praise the Lord! Amen!

Troy Brooks

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http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/LeeistLetters.htm

Well, it's good to see Troy Brooks is not stuck in the cult of Leeism..

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Aaron

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There is no place in Scripture that backs up what Peter states as of Elohim - In fact how did Peter determine who would be the next Apostle?

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

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Acts 1:24 - 26 (NLT)

Then they all prayed , “O Lord, you know every heart. Show us which of these men you have chosen as an apostle to replace Judas in this ministry, for he has deserted us and gone where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and Matthias was selected to become an apostle with the other eleven.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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There is no place in Scripture that backs up what Peter states as of Elohim - In fact how did Peter determine who would be the next Apostle?

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by wparr:

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Originally posted by WildB:


[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

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If we were to use only this scripture Paul would not qualify to be an apostle. The ones who don't understand will attempt all sorts of rational gymnastics in an attempt to get Paul to "fit" these standards. They'll conclude that his experience on the road to Damascus somehow compensated for the fact that he was neither 1) with Jesus from the time of His baptism or 2) with the group that witnessed Our Lord's ascension.

Such reasoning, I think, arose as an answer to the Roman heresy as the fathers of the reformation attempted to disarm the Roman Catholic beast at the foundational level. Yet, in their haste to condemn the Pope and his ilk they neglected the counsel of the Spirit and spun off, themselves, into poor doctrine.

Are there any here who want to know why these qualifications were given in Acts and why Paul, who did not meet these requirements, was indeed still an apostle?

Aaron

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Those requirements Peter states in Acts are the requirements of MEN and NOT of Yahweh.

There is no place in Scripture that backs up what Peter states as of Elohim - In fact how did Peter determine who would be the next Apostle?

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

How did Messiah choose the apostles?


It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God. And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles: (Luk 6:12-13)

What was Yahshua's command to Peter and the others?

"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." (Luk 24:49)

That word stay - is also tarry, wait, to sit.

They were to wait until they received The Holy Spirit - but Peter was a man of action and couldn't just wait.
He disobeyed and performed a work of the flesh.

Paul didn't meet Peter's requirements to be an apostle - but he met Elohim's, which is the ONLY requirements that count.

It wasn't Peter's place to choose Apostles - it is Yahweh's place only as He did with Paul.

there is a great lesson to be learned in what Peter misdid - don't step out according to the flesh when Yahweh has us in a place of waiting.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carmela:
Personally, I think it's a waste of my precious time with Jesus to be disputing about other people. As I stated before, I will keep my focus on things from above, Jesus, and not worry about gossiping over other ministries/people.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carmela:
Personally, I think it's a waste of my precious time with Jesus to be disputing about other people. As I stated before, I will keep my focus on things from above, Jesus, and not worry about gossiping over other ministries/people.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Originally posted by WildB:


[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

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If we were to use only this scripture Paul would not qualify to be an apostle. The ones who don't understand will attempt all sorts of rational gymnastics in an attempt to get Paul to "fit" these standards. They'll conclude that his experience on the road to Damascus somehow compensated for the fact that he was neither 1) with Jesus from the time of His baptism or 2) with the group that witnessed Our Lord's ascension.

Such reasoning, I think, arose as an answer to the Roman heresy as the fathers of the reformation attempted to disarm the Roman Catholic beast at the foundational level. Yet, in their haste to condemn the Pope and his ilk they neglected the counsel of the Spirit and spun off, themselves, into poor doctrine.

Are there any here who want to know why these qualifications were given in Acts and why Paul, who did not meet these requirements, was indeed still an apostle?

Aaron

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Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Zeena:
I do not appreciate the condescending attitude that EITHER of those posts are written in, niether G. Richard Fisher nor Troy Brooks.

But facts are facts.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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G. Richard Fisher has been found a FALSE WITNESS!

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WildB:
I hate cults.

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So do I WildB, in Christ, of course. Anyone or anything that leads us away from following Jesus is MORE than dangerous!

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Leeism
Outer darkness and extinction in the eternal fires of hell.

One important thing to remember for all readers here, whether a believer in Christ or not, is that according to Witness Lee, y'all are going to hell.

On this point and many others Witness Lee's religion is just like any other cult. Take the Jehovah's Witnesses for example. The practical consequence of their god-talk is that everyone, including most Jehovah's Witnesses, is damned. The Watchtower Society, the JWs' vatican, teaches that only 144,000 will actually be saved. Now after more than 100 years of existence, the JWs have grown so that their number, living and dead, is what, in the millions? These millions of JWs (and everyone else for that matter) face everlasting extinction of their souls.

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Paulism
IMO, you can blame Paul for all of what we call Christianity.

I don't recall any indications in the NT that Christ wanted people to worship him. I don't recall Christ being misogynistic. It's Paul who put Christianity up to these things.

Indeed, it isn't Christianity at all: what's currently practiced is Paulism. And it's a death cult.

Christ was about life and love. Paul is about death and hate.

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Jas.1

[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Aaron:
I'll come back tonight and add some more. Now, my wife and I are getting ready for a date. *gasp*

Be back soon.

Aaron

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A DATE!!!!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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FALSE WITNESS vs FALSE TEACHER

who do you think has the greater condemnation?

Let us go to This False Witness and ask him since he is still here to be talked to.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Aaron:
Are there any here who want to know why these qualifications were given in Acts and why Paul, who did not meet these requirements, was indeed still an apostle?

Aaron

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That would be wonderful Aaron, thank you!!!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Such reasoning, I think, arose as an answer to the Roman heresy as the fathers of the reformation attempted to disarm the Roman Catholic beast at the foundational level. Yet, in their haste to condemn the Pope and his ilk they neglected the counsel of the Spirit and spun off, themselves, into poor doctrine.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mizpa:
So far I'm 60/40 against following a man as it matters to my eternal salvation.

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John 10:28
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Jude 1:24-25
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

As the Lord gives you time Mizpa, dilligently and with the Spirit of Grace in Christ Jesus, search out the Scriptures, seek the Lord, and trust that He will lead you in the path that you may go.

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

He will keep His promise.

Matthew 10:31
Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=9

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WildB:


[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

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Originally posted by Mizpa:

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Originally posted by Zeena:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mizpa:
FALSE WITNESS vs FALSE TEACHER

who do you think has the greater condemnation?

Let us go to This False Witness and ask him since he is still here to be talked to.

http://www.watchman.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.staff

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There are adequate rebukes levelled against each and every one of these accusations here -->

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm

And Nee's works, should you take the TIME to explore yourself by the Grace of God here -->

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

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It all seams even to me, with the exemption that you have not contacted http://www.watchman.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.staff

To see for yourself, our self. From the source.


So far I'm 60/40 against following a man as it matters to my eternal salvation.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

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Originally posted by Zeena:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mizpa:
FALSE WITNESS vs FALSE TEACHER

who do you think has the greater condemnation?

Let us go to This False Witness and ask him since he is still here to be talked to.

http://www.watchman.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.staff

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There are adequate rebukes levelled against each and every one of these accusations here -->

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm

And Nee's works, should you take the TIME to explore yourself by the Grace of God here -->

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

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Posts: 16 | From: USA | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Mizpa:
FALSE WITNESS vs FALSE TEACHER

who do you think has the greater condemnation?

Let us go to This False Witness and ask him since he is still here to be talked to.

http://www.watchman.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.staff

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WildB:
This sounds very catholic to me.

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cath·o·lic

• 1. broad or wide-ranging in tastes, interests, or the like; having sympathies with all; broad-minded; liberal.

• 2. universal in extent; involving all; of interest to all.

• 3. pertaining to the whole Christian body or church.

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http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/catholic

Every born again believer is catholic WildB.
Not every believer is ROMAN Catholic, however..

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

Hi Aaron!

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:
http://thechristianbbs.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=53;t=000396



One is Your Master, Even Christ

By David Henke

"But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brothers. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters; for One is your Master, even Christ, But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. And whoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. Matthew 23:8-12

The confrontations depicted in the gospels between Jesus and the Pharisees were one of escalating tension. Jesus spoke the truth to them openly in the hearing of all. The positive response of the common people disturbed the Pharisees. Their response was to stiffen their resolve to rid themselves of this troublesome Rabbi.

In the end Jesus was crucified for our sins, which was God's plan from the foundation of the World. But that was not the final end of the conflict between Jesus and the Pharisees.

The willfulness and unbelief exhibited by this pseudo-righteous sect was characteristic of the Jews at the time as they sought salvation by means other than Jesus. That willful unbelief ultimately led to the destruction of their power and influence when the Roman General Titus sacked Jerusalem, destroyed the Temple, and scattered the Jews.

This article is written to foster understanding and insight into the potential influences at work when a religious group is set up without the polity needed to constrain our fallen human nature.

Spiritual leaders struggle with the same sinful nature as those who follow. The efforts of leaders to see their church move forward can run into frustrating obstacles which can lead to the temptation to manipulate. A viable accountability structure is a guard to the congregation and to the pastor.

The alternative is to let an abusive situation worsen to the point where it is almost unavoidable that many people will be affected by spiritual abuse. Scripture nowhere countenances such a situation to exist.

The diseased have ye not strengthened, neither have ye healed that which was sick, neither have ye bound up that which was broken, neither have ye brought again that which was driven away, neither have ye sought that which was lost; but with force and with cruelty have ye ruled them. (Ezekiel 34:4)

As I write this article I am working with members of a church that is dealing with the results of having allowed unbiblical procedures to rule.

There is a struggle between a controlling and manipulative leadership that has seated itself in "Moses seat" (Matthew 23:2), and a growing group of "dissidents" who are calling for a reformation in the governance of their church. An internet discussion forum has become the means by which people have been able to communicate and begin to sort out truth from error.

Two decades ago another discernment ministry issued a report of their findings about this church. That report said, "In actuality, there are currents within the organization that are quite orthodox and evangelical, and there are other currents that have definite cultic tendencies. The decisive question has always been--which element within the organization will ultimately prevail?"
A Little Background

There is one primary source of the Pharisaical motive to control, the sinful heart of fallen man. However, that motive will play out in one of two ways. First, there may be insecure people in spiritual leadership who compensate for their weakness by trying to be big. Just like the Wizard of Oz who sought to be big by using sound and lights to frighten people into submission. Though Toto found him out, the Wizard tried to remain big by saying, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

A second way control finds its way into a Christian setting is through a false teaching of the biblical doctrine of submission to spiritual leaders. There have been numerous Christian groups that have used "shepherding" as a method of discipleship. This teaching holds that the shepherd should be consulted for all life decisions and failure to do so, or to follow the counsel of the shepherd is the sin of rebellion and a sign of spiritual immaturity.

Another way submission is required is through the teaching of a "chain of command" in one's church and family relationships. It is also called "delegated authority." These terms have been associated with abusive, controlling authority in the Discipleship, Shepherding groups.

This false teaching came into American churches through Watchman Nee and his book Spiritual Authority. Nee says on page 71, "If God dares to entrust His authority to man, then we can dare to obey. Whether the one in authority is right or wrong does not concern us. The obedient one needs only to obey. The Lord will not hold us responsible for any mistaken obedience, rather He will hold the delegated authority responsible for his erroneous act." In addition, he states, "We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us" (page 23).
So, What's Wrong With That?

Watchman Nee learned this concept of delegated authority from the ethics of Confucianism. Confucius taught that parents should always be obeyed, that they were never wrong, but if they were they should still be obeyed. Among Confucianists loyalty is one of the greatest virtues and can lead to the blind loyalty described in Nee's statement.

To bring this concept into Christianity antagonizes one of the most fundamental principles of New Testament Christianity, the Priesthood of all believers. When the veil of the Temple was torn in half God was signifying that we all now have equal access to Him. There is no person who has spiritual authority (power) over us. We are all siblings in Christ and there is no chain of command among siblings.

Authority in the New Testament is of a completely different order. In some settings in our life we experience the kind of leadership that has the power of command. Our jobs are many times an example. But in the church a very different kind of leadership is needed.

The Church is a voluntary association of free people who accept the authority of God but recognize the equality of every believer.

The Church is a voluntary association of free people who accept the authority of God but recognize the equality of every believer. Because God is no respecter of persons, and because we are brothers and sisters in Christ, and because we can come equally before the Throne of Grace, the only valid authority and leadership we can follow is one of servant leadership.

Jesus, the Almighty Creator of the Universe had the valid authority to command and coerce. He instead chose the opposite of power and became the least. He took a washbasin and cloth and washed His disciples feet. The contrast between Who He is and what He did is so great that it should be impossible for anyone to misunderstand.

Nee's "delegated authority" also blatantly violates Jesus' own counsel at Matthew 23:8-12. "Neither be ye called masters, for one is your Master, even Christ." Spiritual leaders have moral authority but they do not have coercive authority. Theirs is a servant leadership. Only the whole congregation acting together has the power to coerce according to Matthew 18.

For example, we are to submit of our own volition to godly leadership (Hebrews 13:17). But, we are to discern the godliness and scriptural validity of that leadership (1 Corinthians 11:1). Also, we must not submit if our conscience or biblical truth are violated. If a leader is leading contrary to truth then we should first consider that "a word to the wise is sufficient." If that is not heeded then we must consider whether the issue is of little or great weight. If it is serious enough then we must confront (1 Timothy 5:19) with witnesses, and if the charge is denied then Matthew 18 says we must take it to the whole church.

It is the congregation as a body that decides such issues. And therein lies the problem in abusive churches. They have short-circuited the Matthew 18 mechanism so the "whole congregation" is prevented from exercising its power. So, the one who brought the accusation is left with the question where does he go from here? How will he get the issue before the whole congregation?

This frustration was expressed by one of the posters on the internet who is trying to bring accountability. He said, "(Our church) will not even deal with a Christian organization. They would have a problem with "ANY" (geez do we get it now, ANY, ANY, ANY!) group dealing with these problems that was Christian and not somehow connected to them. Even from within they don't deal with these issues. There is NONE, not any, nothing, complete void of any polity to create accountability for most of the leaders. When they make mistakes that are abusive nobody has a way of dealing with these abuses. None, nothing, not there. Do we get this now? Nothing, nobody, no place, just a void."

In any healthy Christian church there is a polity that provides for resolution of conflicts, or better yet, prevents conflicts by providing an atmosphere of orderliness and accountability. The first provision is in scripture itself. The second is within the polity, or form of church government, adopted by the church or denomination.

Frequently church bylaws will specify that their business meetings are conducted according to Robert's Rules of Order, or something similar. In this case the New Business portion of the meeting affords the opportunity for bringing up the issue. That usually requires one must be a "member" to have standing in the meeting. But the church described above has no membership outside the handpicked Board members.
Church Polity

In church history there have been three primary systems of church government. They are the Episcopal, the Presbyterian and the Congregational. Other systems have existed but the common denominator with them is they are either dictatorial, meaning no real polity, or heretical, or both.

The Episcopal polity emphasized apostolic succession, the passing of spiritual leadership authority down from the Apostles to bishops, then to succeeding bishops, etc., until today. In this form, which arose from the tradition of the churches in Jerusalem and the surrounding area during the first century, the leading Apostles, Peter, John, and later James, appointed other leaders who had their authority in Apostolic appointment, and so on through history. The local church in this polity is accountable outside the church to the denominational leadership. The major denominations using this polity include the Roman Catholic, the Orthodox, and the Anglican/Episcopal churches.

The Presbyterian polity gained a strong following during the period of the Reformation under the influence of John Calvin. It is a sort of middle position between hierarchical and congregational polity. The church using this polity typically will have elders who are selected, or approved, by the congregation and these elders will govern in the daily affairs of the church. There is also an external accountability by the local church to a denominational authority. The main adherents of this polity are, of course, the Presbyterians.

The Congregational polity is very democratic in form. The congregation chooses its ministers, its lay leadership, and also decides more mundane matters as they come before the church. This polity arose from the English Reformation. Churches organized on the Congregational line do not recognize any authority above the level of the local congregation. There is no external authority. There may be associations of local churches organized for their common purposes but they do not have authority over the local congregation. The main adherents of this polity are the Baptists.

...the best polity can be corrupted to serve the purposes of human leaders if those to whom they are accountable fail to hold them to account.

The polity of any of the above churches can function effectively in the hands of godly leaders. On the other hand the best polity can be corrupted to serve the purposes of human leaders if those to whom they are accountable fail to hold them to account. The most important element in any polity is that two-way accountability be built into the system.

In any of the above polities true spiritual authority comes from the moral authority of servant leadership. It wasn't just the words of Jesus spoken publicly against the Pharisees that turned them against Him. It was the stark contrast between the humble servant with great moral authority in comparison to the Pharisees who held positional authority and were arrogant and uncaring for the people. When the people responded to Jesus the Pharisees had to act to silence this exposure of their own hypocrisy.
Fight or Flight

So, if two way accountability is not present in the system, what does a person do? Flight, or leaving the group, is one option. In some cases that is the only option. If a person has been so deeply injured that any effort at correction just reopens the old wound then leaving, at least for a time to heal, is best. The reader may find it unusual but many who have been deeply injured cannot bear to even darken the door of a church again. The burden of their injury is as much as they can bear. Such people need intensive grace and time.

On the other hand some are motivated to act. Anyone who chooses to act must check their motives. Are they vindictive? Are they based upon biblical truth and principles? What are the ethics they will follow in their opposition? In their efforts to expose and correct will they sink to the same low standards to which they object? These questions and many more must be considered as part of the decision to take a stand as a "dissident."

Those loyal to the abusive system will accuse the dissidents of being angry. Anger is a God given emotion. It tells us when something important to us has been trampled. Anger is an initial emotion. If handled biblically it serves a proper purpose. However, mishandled it can become bitterness and lead to cynicism.

Outrage might be a better term to use. Anger occurs when we are injured. Outrage occurs when we see another who is injured. It is selfless. Outrage is the emotion upon which to act when God's Truth and God's people are suffering at the hands of false spiritual authority (Jude 3,4; Galatians 5:1; 1 John 4:1; Acts 17:11; Acts 20:28; 2 Pet. 2:1; Ezek. 33:7-9; 34:1-10.

Christians, all Christians, have the common duty to confront and correct false teaching. False spiritual authority usually rests upon a foundation of false teaching, the power posturing described above. The following scriptures command us to this duty - Romans 16:17-18; cf. 1 Timothy 1:3-4; 4:16; 2 Timothy 1:13-14; Titus 1:9; 2:1. It is not a rebellious spirit, gossip, anger, or spreading division to pursue truth and correction. However, in everything our motive must be the same as our Lord, our reconciliation with God and man.
A Matter for Prayer, and Learning

The words of two "dissidents" posting on the Internet discussion board will illustrate the problem of those who suffer in dictatorial systems. I conclude with their words as a reminder that there are "friendly fire casualties" in the Army of God. As soldiers of the Cross we must care for our wounded, not shoot them. Would you pray for correction and reconciliation among these fellow believers?

#1 "What you don't seem to understand is how subtle these kinds of manipulations work on the human mind in systems such as (church name). They break down normal critical thinking skills of the individual; you slowly stop thinking outside the current groupthink. Your own individual views become narrower and narrower, you truly believe you are still independent and a free thinker but you are not. It is subtle and over time, life's many gray areas become simplistic black and white. There is always a simple answer to complex questions."

#2 "I woke one morning during this time and my thought was 'my two decade nightmare is over.' We have belonged to a Christian church that teaches grace but operates like a cult. We slowly stopped thinking rationally, we put into our brains techniques to constantly stop that rational voice from speaking. And yet our spirit deep down knew. I hold Pastor directly responsible for setting up this counterfeit kingdom that has served him well and hurt many. I do not hate him, I am not out to get him, but I will hold him accountable and I am compelled to do something about it.

How can a leader read these posts and not see the scope of the pain caused by allowing this type of illegitimate authority to continue."

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David Henke Makes Himself Another Master

Of the Watchman Fellowship Expositor or Fellowship, Inc.

David Henke writes "Another way submission is required is through the teaching of a 'chain of command' in one’s church and family relationships. It is also called 'delegated authority.' These terms have been associated with abusive, controlling authority in the Discipleship, Shepherding groups."

No doubt such is abused, but the fact of the matter, there are those with authority, in the household, those of the 4 fold Ministry of the Work for the Church, and there are those we look up to who are helpful in their teaching. For example, Watchman Nee was perhaps the most spiritual Christian writer that ever lived. Another writer I highly respect is Lee Strobel. To simplify, parents are the authority of their children. Watchman Nee used the example of a police officer as being of authority. We even ought to pay our taxes to the authority of the government. What is in view here is that of humility and knowing submission in where true authority is seen. Because of this fact, this is no reason to misread Watchman Nee's intention. Watchman Nee does not use the term "chain of command" for the Bible is not a military chain of command and control center. Rather all things in life have authority and submission. Yet another example, Nee uses the light bulb that needs a lamp, and that lamp needs wire that connects to an outlet for electricity that needs a power supply from the electric company, so on and so forth. This is common sense is it not?

David Henke, further writes, "This false teaching came into American churches through Watchman Nee and his book Spiritual Authority. Nee says on page 71, 'If God dares to entrust His authority to man, then we can dare to obey. Whether the one in authority is right or wrong does not concern us. The obedient one needs only to obey. The Lord will not hold us responsible for any mistaken obedience, rather He will hold the delegated authority responsible for his erroneous act.' In addition, he states, 'We should not be occupied with right or wrong, good or evil; rather should we know who is the authority above us' (page 23)."

Therefore, as noted about God's delegated authorities, such is not a false teaching, but the way the universe works and it is God's will in all things. All things have cause and effect. It did not happen as soon as when Watchman wrote Spiritual Authority. Spiritual Authority perfectly reflects God's will as it pertains to authority and submission since the beginning of creation. Another person who horribly misreads Nee in the same way, is Pat Knapp. As you read through the underlying motivation of why these individuals alter Watchman Nee's writings in their misreading bearing false witness, I have found it usually has to do with a couple of things: either they are calvinists (Nee was osas arminian), against Biblical locality, hold the fallen bipartite view of man, or they are historicalists or premillennial onlyists.

This quote on page 71 is answered with the next paragraph when Nee writes "It is therefore clear that no human element is involved in the matter of authority. If our subjection is merely directed to a man the whole meaning of authority is lost. When God instituted His delegated authority He is bound by His honor to maintain that authority. We are each one of us responsible before God in this matter. Let us be careful we make no mistake." In the previous paragraph, Nee writes, "But the Lord makes us representatives plenipotentiary. What confidence He has in us! Can we trust any less when our Lord displays such trust in His delegated authority?" Further Nee adds in the same paragraph mentioned by Henke, "Insubordination, however, is rebellion, and for this the one under authority must answer to God". Now, the point of this whole exercise to to state clearly, as David was obedient to Saul's attacks, and did not try to oust him, David accepted God's authority in Saul. In due time God would bring about a change, a change not by David's strength. To reject delegated authority is an affront to God. David Henke appears to be disobedient and hostile to God's desire to see the harmony of authority and submission in all things, therefore Henke will suffer the consequences of God's wrath through his bearing false witness and misreading intention. Hence, through such bearing false witness, we may conclude Henke is making himself the center of the universe, for what other reason does one misread, but centering upon one's self or personal agenda whatever it may be? That is between Henke and God, whom God will deal with accordingly.

On page 23, the following paragraph, Nee writes, "Since the fall of Adam disorder has prevailed in the universe. Everyone thinks he is able to distinguish good from evil and to judge what is right and wrong. He seems to know better than God. An example of this when you quote someone as Henke did, you do not flip from page 71 to 23 by saying "in addition, he states..." as somehow page 23 follows from page 71. It is out of context. Snippets out of context are man's flesh at work. In the same paragraph, Nee writes, "We are under men's authority as well as having men under our authority. This is our position. Even the Lord Jesus on earth was subject not only to God but also to other's authority. Authority is everywhere. There is authority in the school, authority in the home. The policeman on the street, though perhaps less learned than you, is set up by God as your authority. Whenever a few brothers in Christ come together, immediately a spiritual order falls into place. A Christian worker ought to know who is above him. Some do not know how to obey authorities above them, hence they do not obey. We should not be occupied with....."; as Henke continued the quote of Watchman Nee. When we know authority we know harmony. If we do not know authority, like David Henke does not know authority, what good is to anyone in his organization that he calls The Watchman Expositor or The Watchman Fellowship, Inc. Maybe that is his problem, that he is incorporated into a man's organization, not the Work of the Ministry for the Church not abiding in Biblical locality. Apostolic work does not involve corporations registered with the government. It is not necessary. Such is a man's organization usurping itself and not in the Work.

Henke concludes, "So, What’s Wrong With That? Watchman Nee learned this concept of delegated authority from the ethics of Confucianism. Confucius taught that parents should always be obeyed, that they were never wrong, but if they were they should still be obeyed. Among Confucianists loyalty is one of the greatest virtues and can lead to the blind loyalty described in Nee’s statement."

Watchman Nee did not learn the examples of delegated authority in the Bible from confucianism. Nor does Henke give an example of a proof where Nee brings anything fro Confucianism, so why make the connection by imagination alone? We must conclude then Henke's flesh is hard at work. That is merely the mistake of assumption of Henke, since Watchman Nee gives all the most pertinent examples of authority and submission in the Scriptures that is difficult for the non-humble to accept. You can see directly the authority here was the Word, and Nee was obedient in the Word, submitting to His teaching. Watchman Nee states elsewhere we do not always submit to authorities gone awry.

What Nee is doing is showing examples in the Word of how important it is to come into harmony in the body of Christ, and not misread bearing false witness in a spirit of dissension. Man's eyes looks to how he can retaliate or judge erroneously thinking he is doing good; that is the "good self'. A Christian looks to see how harmony can be maintained in submission, even in spite of some mistakes of those in authority. If people can be more lenient with each other, and resist retaliation and bearing false witness by being more humble by the grace of God, we can set an example for each other so that those in authority can change too. But when you play the false accuser as Satan does as David Henke did, when he said: "can lead to the blind loyalty described in Nee's statement". In Nee's statement, Nee did not say blind loyalty for those being obedient are fully cognizant of the error of the particular authority, just as David was not blindly obedient to Saul either, but at the same time David did not usurp himself over Saul and did wait for the right time to receive the throne, not of his own strength. Do you see how that works? So let us observe authority and from this other things fall into harmony and will reek less havoc and dissensions.

A further proof of David Henke's motivation is where he marries Watchman Nee to Witness Lee of the Local Church by misassociating the Local Church with Watchman Nee as he said "Local Church, The, Watchman Nee, Anaheim, CA" along with the various other false teachings of Witness Lee are somehow connected to Watchman Nee but he does not even try to prove it, but only self-declares that Watchman Nee believes these false teachings also. I have a real problem with todays so called watchman apologists. It appears they are so busying judging others, it is like a disease of judging, not even caring anymore that they bear false witness in so doing, listening to the pleasure of their own never ending rationalizations examining others. I don't like it one bit. Another example of someone like this is Nicholas Stivers of Cephas Ministries.

Make note this false marrying was given also by the staff of the Watchman Fellowship so their entire business is complicit. They are not very good watchmans. Watchman Nee has no association to this Witness Lee cult or the Watchman Fellowship Expositor cult, even though Witness Lee tried to attach himself through altering Watchman Nee's writings. Watchman Nee was osas arminian. Witness Lee was calvinist. Watchman Nee did not believe in a central hub of a Local Church, but believed in the local churches. Observe the various differences between Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Anyway, you can see the underlying motivation of David Henke. It usually has to do with Biblical locality, historicalism (or premillennial onlyism), tripartite man or partial rapture; these spiritual facts, that the flesh can not accept in David Henke.

Bottom line: there is an underlying motivation. Ask the Watchman Fellowship (particularly David Henke) cult if they are calvinists, historicalists, premillennial onlyists, or of the fallen bipartite view, and there you will have your answer.

Troy Brooks

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:


Watchman Nee

Born November 4, 1903
Foochow, China

Died May 30, 1972
Anhwei province, China


Watching Out For Watchman Nee

by G. Richard Fisher, of Personal Freedom Outreach


The teachings that developed over Nee's lifetime...are dangerous to Christians seeking clear guidelines to follow. Space allows a listing of only a few of the problems in Nee's teachings:

Nee outlines no method of Bible study and interpretation and appears to deny evangelical hermeneutics. In his book Spiritual Authority, he sets himself and his elders up as the unquestionable authorities. By all appearances, Nee saw himself not as a servant but as a guru.

One gets the impression from Nee that the Bible was not nearly as important as Christians generally consider it. In his book The Ministry of God's Word, Nee says, "Words alone cannot be considered God's Word." In this book, Nee becomes very philosophical, mystical and incoherent. He says that only as we deliver the Word in terms of the "reality behind it," using what he calls "Holy Spirit memory" and "presenting the pictures as well as speaking the words" will the words be correct; otherwise they are not real.

Nee overemphasizes emotions. In The Ministry of God's Word, he claims that the effectiveness of a preacher's delivery is a product of his emotions. If a preacher does not feel emotionally charged in delivery, "the Spirit is stuck" and the "Spirit is inevitably arrested," Nee says. He continues, "The Spirit flows through the channel of emotion." Then he arrives at a strange conclusion: "Nose in the Scripture stands for feeling. Smelling is a most delicate act, man's feeling is most delicate." Therefore, Nee says, a preacher in speaking needs to "mix feelings with the words spoken, else his words are dead. If our feeling lags behind, our words are stripped of the spirit." To say as Nee does, on page 210, that the Holy Spirit only rides on feeling is dangerous.

Nee uses terms imprecisely. One example is his writing about a minister's receiving "revelations" in his "Holy Spirit memory" and those revelations being remembered in us by the Holy Spirit. This sort of metaphysical mumbo jumbo is impossible to understand, since there is no direct scriptural reference to a "Holy Spirit memory."

When a Christian begins to see Nee as a guide in determining the value of other Christian writers, or sees Nee's writings as a key to spirituality, that person is headed for trouble. Nee's presuppositions are suspect in light of the Word of God. His books provide grist for cult groups such as The Way, The Alamo Foundation, the Children of God and other groups. The astute believer should watch out for Watchman Nee.

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Watch Out for G. Richard Fisher

G. Richard Fisher tries to be cunning in his flesh, but is nonetheless a dullard, sinning bearing false witness. Do not be surprised by his flesh on a rampage. This is the nature of the fleshly to not accept God's Word that the flesh has been crucified: "having begun with the Spirit...now ending with the flesh" (Gal. 3.3). Because he is lost in his old self, he is sure to lose out on the reward of the millennial kingdom and in fact, may never have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.



Also read G. Richard Fisher Exposed, Again!

Introduction

An article written by G. Richard Fisher tried to paint Watchman Nee in a negative light. Note that the owner and editor, Anton Hein, of apologeticsindex.org, where Richard Fisher's article is found, is a convicted child molester and pedophile court documents reveal, "For the crime of 'LEWD ACT UPON A CHILD' Anton William Hein pleaded no contest in Jul 1994 in San Bernardino County Municipal Court and spent about 6 months in jail filed in July 1994. After his release from Prison, Mr. Hein moved to Holland." Normally, this is fleeing probation; where he began his so-called apologetics work. My immediate question is if according to Anton, his "conscience is clear," then why does he aid and abet in the sin of bearing false witness (see below) with Richard Fisher against Watchman Nee? Anton's and Richard's sins has just popped up elsewhere in a new venue, not really accepted nor actually forgiven at all by God, and this comes out.


Richard Fisher portrayed Watchman Nee as reading only a few books, trying to pin him down. However, Nee had read over 3000 Christian books. Nee's spiritual life was immense and was constantly filled with activity, and he had a genius intelligence as well as an authentic photographic memory with such a beautiful conscience. I don’t like seeing people misrepresented. Here is what I found out . . .


Partial Rapture

Richard describes partial rapture as "assigning carnal believers to a kind of Protestant purgatory". Purgatory is a negative term taken from the Roman Catholic Church that teaches one could still be saved after death or through paying penitence of others, that could reduce their stay in some purgatory. This is an inaccurate representation of what outer darkness is, which has no fire about it in loss of rewards and partial rapture. Outer darkness describes what happens to Christians if they are still not yet delivered from sin, self and supernatural at judgment seat. The common belief is that when you die, you're resurrected and then you go into the millennial kingdom for a 1000 years and then proceed into the New City thereafter. There is no dealing with the aspect of the wheat and the wheat, only the wheat and the tares if that is all people believe, which is called antinomianism. Those who are not included in the 1st resurrection (Rev. 20.4), enter into what is called "outer darkness." It is termed "outer" because it is out of the reward of reigning during the kingdom, and "darkness" because it is out of the light of Christ reigning during the kingdom. Darkness is also the condition of the world at Christ's return, and "outer" is in relation to the air for we shall meet Christ in the air at the last trumpet. Richard tried to suggest that Nee's thoughts on partial rapture were "new insights," but it is common knowledge the foremost work done on the subject was done by Robert Govett (the "Prince of Prophecy" as called by Spurgeon) in the 19th century. Today, however, Watchman Nee has written the most comprehensive and accurate representation of partial rapture in Come, Lord Jesus, King and the Kingdom of Heaven, and Aids to Revelation. I can testify that it is a very rewarding experience understanding partial rapture deeply which is the blessing of Revelation 1.3. Find out more here.


Gnosticism and Mysticism

Richard said that the book, The Spiritual Man, the only book Watchman Nee ever published of size, was a Gnostic writing. In reality, this book is the most spiritual and accurate book to date on the redemptive design, “Biblical Psychology”, and dividing of the spirit, soul and body. The basic tenets of gnosticism are that “the world and our bodies were created by an incompetent lesser God, but we contain a spark of divinity, and Jesus provided us with the knowledge to free it”. Watchman Nee does not believe this, and nothing of the kind is reflected in any of his writings. Because Watchman Nee had genius intelligence, he we wrote very deeply, though without a shred of Gnosticism. Richard falsely misrepresented Watchman Nee for whatever reason. Richard Fisher seems to be taking the proclamations of another, Dana Roberts, as the gospel, who wrote Understanding Watchman Nee. I believe Richard makes this claim because the word, “gnosticism” is thrown around a lot in Christianity the minute someone has intelligence behind their words. So Watchman Nee writes:

[In the second preface of The Spiritual Man] I deeply sense that only one class of people will actually understand this book. My original purpose was to supply the need of many believers; obviously only those who have need will be able to appreciate this book. Such ones will find here a guidebook. Others will look upon these truths as ideals or criticize them as inappropriate. According to the measure of his need shall be the believer’s understanding of what is written here. Unless the reader has personal need he will not find any problem solved through the reading of these pages. This is what the reader must guard against.

The deeper the truth the easier it is to become theoretical. Apart from the working of the Holy Spirit, none can arrive at a deeper truth. Thus some will treat these principles as a sort of ideal. Let us therefore be careful lest we accept the teachings in the book with our mind and deceive ourselves into thinking we have possessed them already. This is most dangerous, for deception which comes from the flesh and the evil spirit shall increase day by day.

I recognize that a work which seeks to uncover the wiles of the enemy shall certainly incur the hostility of the power of darkness and the opposition of many. I have not written with thought of courting the approval of men. This position I consider therefore of no account. I also realize that if God’s children derive help from reading this book they may think more of me than is proper. Let me speak honestly that I am just a man, the weakest of all men. The teachings of these pages reveal the experiences of my weaknesses.

Another term Richard Fisher uses to describe Watchman Nee’s work is “perfectionist theology”. This is Richard’s perception and that of Dana Roberts, perceiving a work of perfection in Watchman Nee’s work, I suppose. The Bible mentions the term, unto “perfection”. It simply means “maturing” in Christ. We should not be offended by this.

Richard Fisher then calls Jessie-Penn Lewis a “mystic”, whom Watchman Nee found the writings of very spiritual. Mysticism is a derogatory term, but if you read War on the Saints, by Jessie-Penn Lewis, you may find that it is the best work to date on spiritual warfare. If a writing is accurate to the Word of God it most certainly will come under attack. Richard makes other strange claims like "Miss M.E. Barber...allowed Nee to read the works of Jessie-Penn Lewis". "Allowed" seems like a strange word to use here since Nee would have read a work with or without the permission of another person. Nee said of Guyon: "Madam Guyon long ago said that everything which befalls us environmentally is permitted by God (although Jessie Penn-Lewis later commented that the French saint has the tendency of falling into the danger of passivity." This obviously indicates that Nee was not in agreement with Madam Guyon's mysticism. Again, Nee has the utmost regard for Jessie-Penn Lewis. Jessie-Penn Lewis was not a mystic in the slightest.


Tongues

Richard said Watchman Nee did not speak today’s tongues but that neither did he disprove of it either. That is an inaccurate portrayal. When you read his book, God’s Work, the impression you get is that he is using conciliatory irony just as Paul did with the carnal Corinthians who had carried over some practices from the ecstasy of mystery religions (of which there were several) around the region of Corinth. Watchman Nee would use terms like “baby talk” and “kindergarden stage” to describe tongues of Pentecostalism. He said “a church which tries to build itself up by the gifts [which according to man's interpretation includes false tongues of Pentecostalism] will end up being a carnal church always, since it is not God's way for the building up of the church except in the nursery stage”. Watchman Nee believed that tongues meant different languages.

This is ironic because Richard said the charismatic movement, fundamentalists and everyone in between have enjoyed his writings, and his spiritual writings and dogmatisms. Dogmatism is a derogatory term. Watchman Nee’s writings reach out to all denominations, but as Nee said he deeply felt he would incur hostility. My take on Watchman Nee is that what is spiritual can be so easily misinterpreted if one is not careful. For example, Richard uses all the popular euphemisms, like dogmatism, mysticism, gnosticism, but has he made the case for these terms and accurately represented Watchman Nee? Nope! People read Nee with automatic hostility and do not read carefully because the flesh wars against the Spirit.

I love being able to see underneath what is really going on.


Employment

Richard writes “He consigned all the property to the church and sought to have the church members as the factory workers." Is it wrong to work in a factory? As I understand it, Watchman Nee inherited the factory, while in transition for a time, hired church members, after which he sold the factory, and used the proceeds for the church. This sounds like an honorable thing, to hire Christians, then dispose of the business and use the proceeds for the church.



Richard Fisher List of Reasons Why Watchman Nee is “Dangerous”

Watch Out for Richard Fisher


1. Methods of Bible Study

Richard babbles, “Nee outlines no method of Bible study and interpretation and appears to deny evangelical hermeneutics." Watchman Nee did outline methods of Bible study that goes into great detail in the book, Ye Search the Scriptures, Part 2 “The Methods of Bible Study." This whole book is a study of how to study the Scriptures. Evangelical hermeneutics are revealed throughout.


2. Spiritual Authority

Richard babbles, “In his book Spiritual Authority, he sets himself and his elders up as the unquestionable authorities. By all appearances, Nee saw himself not as a servant but as a guru." I have read this book and have responded to another misreading of this same book floating around the internet by Pat Knapp. I was careful before reading this book looking for any possible mistakes of cited by Richard Fisher or Pat Knapp, which unsurprisingly, I could not find any of the claims they were making. Their statements are flatly disproved. Watchman Nee never made himself to be a guru or unquestioned authority. That is not the meaning of authority and submission. If anything is wrong in this book, Spiritual Authority let that man cast the first stone, because I can’t find anything wrong with it. It is basically just common sense.


3. Bible Importance

Richard babbles, “One gets the impression from Nee that the Bible was not nearly as important as Christians generally consider it. In his book The Ministry of God's Word, Nee says, 'Words alone cannot be considered God's Word.' In this book, Nee becomes very philosophical, mystical and incoherent. He says that only as we deliver the Word in terms of the reality behind it,' using what he calls 'Holy Spirit memory' and 'presenting the pictures as well as speaking the words' will the words be correct; otherwise they are not real”.

Understand what Nee is saying about our outward memory and the Holy Spirit memory. "Words alone cannot be considered as God’s word. There must be the reality behind them" (p. 209 pdf, CFP). "Let us understand that the coming forth of words alone is not enough; the spirit must also come out, and when it does it will do so together with feeling" (p. 221 pdf). In other words, people speak forth, but their hearts need to be touched also.

The Bible was the most important thing to Nee for it was the Word of God, and he dissected it better than anyone I know. Nee is correct that words alone by themselves are not the end all to be all of things. A fair statement! Nee was not incoherent, nor mystical nor philosophical. He was so incredibly precise that his words are such a joy. He had an incredibly deep working of the Holy Spirit in his life. When Watchman Nee used the term Holy Spirit memory, he cited verses to identify the meaning of what he was trying to get across. What he has said about the Holy Spirit memory makes sense both objectively and subjectively in experience. The reality behind words is more important than words for words sakes, certainly. There is a memory activity that we can forget of the Holy Spirit in our inner man that is important to maintain otherwise we are susceptible to falling back towards the flesh. Experientially I can not deny this in my life either. It seems like plain old common sense to me. I have a poor memory so I should know.


4. Emotion

Richard babbles “Nee overemphasizes emotions. In The Ministry of God's Word, he claims that the effectiveness of a preacher's delivery is a product of his emotions. If a preacher does not feel emotionally charged in delivery, "the Spirit is stuck" and the "Spirit is inevitably arrested," Nee says. He continues, "The Spirit flows through the channel of emotion." Then he arrives at a strange conclusion: "Nose in the Scripture stands for feeling. Smelling is a most delicate act, man's feeling is most delicate." Therefore, Nee says, a preacher in speaking needs to "mix feelings with the words spoken, else his words are dead. If our feeling lags behind, our words are stripped of the spirit." To say as Nee does, on page 210 that the Holy Spirit only rides on feeling is dangerous”.

Nee does not overemphasis emotions. If you understand Nee’s writings you know that He believes the Holy Spirit always starts from the spirit’s inner man, not the outer man like the emotion of the soul. Emotion is an outlet, expression of feelings. Who wants to listen to a minister without emotion? Nose in scripture does stand for feelings and its delicacy (see below). Nee does not say at all on page 210 that the Holy Spirit rides only on emotion as Richard says. On page 210 (CFP) he says “we use emotion to move people as our spirit is released” and “going forth of the word is powerful only when it is coupled with a corresponding emotion” and “out from the feelings” and “trying to move men with only our emotion is mere performance, resulting in a dead ministry”. This is the complete opposite of what Richard Fisher accused Nee of. Incredible. I find that this critique of Nee is really flawed since nowhere does Nee state the Holy Spirit rides only on emotion. My assessment is that if someone can be this horrible and reading another’s words, then it is either purposefully done with intent or just plain ignorance and misreading.

Nee is also correct that the Holy Spirit flows through the channel of emotion. I already know what he means by this and what he is thinking because I read The Spiritual Man several times which you could say is the foundational book for the redemptive design of all his writings. What he is saying is that the Spirit will use emotion by communicating what is of the spirit to the emotion of the soul. No emotion at all is ineffective, and excessive emotion is also undesirable. For all occasions there are boundaries of what is healthy emotionally.

Nee writes on page 208 of Ministry of God’s Word about the nose from Song of Songs in the Bible. He says “We humans beings have a will, but the will of man is rather rugged. So have we a mind, which, though more refined than the will, is nevertheless quite rugged too. But the emotion which we possess is most delicate part of us. We may ruthlessly make a decision with our will, we may carefully think over a matter, but we touch the tenderest spot when something touches our feeling. Accordingly, in the Old Testament, especially in the Song of Songs, the Spirit of God employs fragrance or savor to express the tender feeling of a man, for it can only be smelled with the nose. Smelling is a most delicate act. It represents man’s tender feeling. “Nose” in the Scriptures stands for feeling. Man’s feeling is most delicate, though it may or may not be useful.”

See, Sgs. 7.8, Gen. 8.21. These are truly sweet things that touch our emotion. Smell is so delicate just like our delicate emotion. Let us keep that which is delicate in a delicate state, and perhaps this is God’s message after all. It is should be spiritually preserved. Nose has several meanings, and this is one of them. Referring to Nee’s book, Song of Songs, you will see another aspect of the which is that of discernment.


5. Using Terms Precisely

Richard babbles, “Nee uses terms imprecisely. One example is his writing about a minister's receiving 'revelations' in his 'Holy Spirit memory' and those revelations being remembered in us by the Holy Spirit. This sort of metaphysical mumbo jumbo is impossible to understand, since there is no direct scriptural reference to a 'Holy Spirit memory.'"”

Nee uses terms extremely precisely. I don’t know anyone who is more precise in their words than Watchman Nee. Really. This is not metaphysical stuff but exactly how the Holy Spirit works in our spirit. And I understand all of it so well with a little effort maybe Richard could too. Richard says Nee is “impossible to understand”. I understood it. But I know my flesh can't understand it, nor will Richard's.

Nee writes, regarding Holy Spirit memory (citing a verse to prove it) on pages 196-197 (CFP) of The Ministry of God's Word,

"You have to support the spoken word with the inner word. Due to the inadequacy of memory, however, you often fail to have the supply ready. The longer you speak, the farther you drift away from the inward word. After you finish delivering the sermon you find your inner word remains untouched. You came with a burden, yet you return with the same burden. You have not been able to discharge it. This is a great suffering to you. Perhaps you say, 'I will write it down in my notebook; then I will remember.' This may or may not help, for an unusual thing happens: as you read your notes you recognize every word of them, but you cannot recall the thing behind the words. How totally inadequate is your memory. If what you have is mere doctrine or teaching you are well able to deliver it. The more doctrinal it is, the easier you remember. But it is not easy to recall revelation. In attempting to communicate your inward revelation you must come to realize that you cannot remember what you have just seen. The words you may remember, yet the thing itself is forgotten. Our problem on the platform is that we forget the thing we have seen. We may say many words, yet none communicates the thing we see. The ministry suffers loss. How necessary it is to have memory."

"The memory we need is of two kinds: the outward memory and the Holy Spirit memory. A minister of the word needs both. The outward memory points to the memory of the outward man, that which is produced in a man’s brain. It occupies a very important place in testifying the word of God. The Holy Spirit memory is what the Lord Jesus mentions in John 14.26: 'But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.' This is the Holy Spirit memory, for it is the Holy Spirit who brings things to your remembrance, not you yourself."

What Nee is speaking about is revelation and memory in that revelation, both on our side and the side of the Holy Spirit.

Is it so hard to accept that in our spirit resides the Holy Spirit whereby God enters the window of our conscience and communicates His mind to us. When this happens is this not where revelation takes place through the function of intuition in our inner man? And when that message works in us, it does so in a form of our “still small voice” (scriptural term - project for everyone - find the verse in Exodus "still small voice" using the NKJV). But, we can easily lose that communication within or become forgetful in our spirit (as matters of the world weigh on us), so what does the Holy Spirit do for us then? For one thing, the Holy Spirit has a memory for us of revelation we have received. As we go about our daily lives we can access what we have received in the Spirit of the Lord by this memory in our inner man. It is really quite elementary.


Conclusion

Richard’s final babble, “When a Christian begins to see Nee as a guide in determining the value of other Christian writers, or sees Nee's writings as a key to spirituality, that person is headed for trouble. Nee's presuppositions are suspect in light of the Word of God. His books provide grist for cult groups such as The Way, The Alamo Foundation, the Children of God and other groups. The astute believer should watch out for Watchman Nee." There is no evidence of the connection claimed by Richard Fisher, nor does he even try to give any, through self-declaration. Watchman Nee is not responsible either, for the mistakes of men, their misreading, and their bearing false witness; therefore, such blaming ought to be passed back to where it came from.

I think Richard is making many claims without connection in his own ego and imagination, lacking a spirit of discernment. Watchman Nee was a powerful writer, one of the best. I put his writings in the top 1% of all Christian writers, easily. I have read over 100 different writers and this is the conclusion I have come in comparing. You must make your own decision. As noted above about Pat Knapp's experience in cults, they love to use the book, Spiritual Authority and misuse the truths therein. The reason for this is based on the unspiritual using attempting to use the spiritual (see the 5th bullet point). The same is true of the leaders of the above mentioned cults. But if anyone spends the time to really read Spiritual Authority, one begins to realize it is a powerful, even authoritative work on the subject of authority and submission.

Richard was not able to make a connection to his claims, because all Richard did was read from someone else (Dana Roberts) who also did a shoddy work of reading Watchman Nee (even marry him to others). Richard admitted having troubles understanding Watchman Nee. I believe that in essence is the problem, that Richard Fisher is without the Holy Spirit. Since man can not understand and can’t see the light, often his recourse is to blame. This has been a work of blaming and bearing false witness of another, and I hope I have done some justice here so that we keep a watch out for Richard Fisher's wiles. Last time I spoke with him, he said he would prepare a follow-up. It has been two years since then (2002), and nothing has been forthcoming. He is dishonest.

In conclusion it can be stated that since Watchman Nee has not been identified as stating something to be untrue, then we can conclude what is going on here is that of the false accuser on the attack for one or more reasons: spiritual jealousy, inability to understand, misreading, mistaken assumption, one-upmanship or trying to defend something in one's own flesh, an untruth. Let us not assume what Richard Fisher is holding onto in his heart, but whatever it is, we know it is of the flesh; either sin, natural (self) or a supernatural hold on him. Experimentally, what runs contrary to what one believes, one often attacks. Therefore, Richard attacks partial rapture, Biblical locality, OSAS Arminianism, triparite man, and authority and submission in all things.

If Watchman Nee had said something wrong, I would agree with Richard Fisher in a heart beat, but I have found Richard Fisher full of sin in bearing false witness. I pray this sets the record straight. I will do this for any person who has be been born false witness of. You can accuse me of thinking, "Nee's writings as the key to spirituality". I recognize the depth in Watchman Nee's writings which answer some of the deepest questions we can ask in just about the best way possible that I know of according to the Scriptures. I consider my defense of no account, since my guiding principle in life is the Word of God and the Holy Spirit. To date, I have found no writer as deep as Watchman Nee apart from the Word of God. I believe what is happening is people are not respecters of truth, but prefer their own truth, which I have outlined from beginning to end where such mistakes occur in reading Watchman Nee, which you can examine for yourself.


Praise the Lord for this discernment!

Amen.

Troy Brooks

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quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/n01.html
G. Richard Fisher —

The senior researcher/writer for The Quarterly Journal. Dick is a member of PFO’s Board of Directors. He has served as pastor of Laurelton Park Baptist Church in Bricktown, New Jersey, since 1968, where he lives with his wife.

Some may be surprised to discover that the great Watchman Nee was unsound in his teachings. Strange doctrines about the church, the soul and the spirit, revelation, authority and even the person of Christ were all part and parcel of Watchman Nee's teaching. He even taught that Christ was not 'essentially Lord' but only became Lord after the cross. Many weird and wonderful ideas were promoted by Watchman Nee which he imbibed from various questionable sources over the years. G. Richard Fisher carefully documents all he documents from original sources.

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G. Richard Fisher has been found a FALSE WITNESS!

Proverbs 17:12
Let a bear robbed of her whelps meet a man, rather than a fool in his folly.

quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:
It is not shocking that Nee's writings would be so threatening to the established church culture. After all, this culture is largely ruled by teachers who reject the validity of contemporary apostolic leadership.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:Here is one of my favorite books by Nee, The Normal Christian Life, in its entirety:

http://www.worldinvisible.com/library/nee/nchrlife/nclcont.htm

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Thanks!

quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:Bless you,
Aaron

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Thank you!
God bless you too precious Saint!

THANK YOU for the opportunity to post a response to accusations levelled against this man, our brother in Christ and a faithful servant of the Allmighty!!!

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:
It is not shocking that Nee's writings would be so threatening to the established church culture. After all, this culture is largely ruled by teachers who reject the validity of contemporary apostolic leadership.


Bless you,
Aaron

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged |