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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

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It is not that Jesus was made sin, but that the penalty of sin was now imputed to Jesus. Likewise, it is not that we are now made righteous, but that righteousness is imputed to us, no matter "how much" righteousness we manage to achieve in this life.

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If we change the word 'righteousness' to Jesus, then we have the understanding. For Jesus is righteousness. So, is Jesus imputed to you? This goes beyond 'putting something on your ledger'. Jesus doesn't write something on a tablet (wherever it is kept). He writes on our heart. He writes "Jesus." Amen!!! Therefore, righteousness is 'imputed' to us if Jesus is written on the heart!!!! Righteousness is not a quality. It is a person, without which we are 'dead' in unrighteousness by being 'alive' to self.

• Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

• Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

• 2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Here again, if we think of righteousness as a quality, then we think of it as something we 'acheive'. But to acheive, implies our 'working' to acheive. But we don't 'work' to acheive. We believe, to acheive.

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Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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It is not that Jesus was made sin, but that the penalty of sin was now imputed to Jesus. Likewise, it is not that we are now made righteous, but that righteousness is imputed to us, no matter "how much" righteousness we manage to achieve in this life.

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• Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

• Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

• 2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Here again, if we think of righteousness as a quality, then we think of it as something we 'acheive'. But to acheive, implies our 'working' to acheive. But we don't 'work' to acheive. We believe, to acheive.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Perhaps you will hear from Norman Grubb?

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True Discipleship

By Norman Grubb


We have no right to divide Christians into two categories the saved and the sanctified, the average and the ardent, the believer and the follower. Jesus did not, nor did Paul. Jesus simply presented those who thronged Him with one standard, that was all: for conduct, the Sermon on the Mount; for cost, “whosoever he be that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple”.

Paul made no distinction between the justified and the sanctified. Having said in Romans 5 that the justified by faith have peace with God, He said to the same believers in the next chapter, “Know ye not, that so many of you as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death....likewise reckon yourselves dead indeed unto sin ... yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.” C. T. Studd, the founder of the Worldwide Evangelization Crusade, always preached that same full gospel to the rawest primitive Africans turning to Christ, and demanded the highest from the newest.

How can it be otherwise? What is the gospel but the entry of Deity into redeemed humanity. Christ beginning to live His own life in a purified heart; and Christ lives a self-giving life, and nothing else. We don’t therefore believe that there is real evidence of a new birth, unless it is seen in the new life. The center has changed from self-interest to Christ-interest, and that means to world-interest.

I accepted Christ as a young man of nineteen. I did not know much, certainly nothing of the kind of thing I am now saying. But I im­mediately knew that a basic change of heart and outlook had taken place. There was Someone I had begun to love more than myself! What we love we talk of. “What fills the heart wags the tongue”, as C. T. Studd said, and I couldn’t help telling my college friends of this new reality in my life. “If that is Christianity,” one, who is now a bishop, said to me, “then I have never had it”. Exactly. It was different, though put crudely and ignorantly.

I had lots of battles to fight and adjustments to make. I argued and resisted when the holy Ghost put His finger on things, but in the end I always gave in. Of course I did; a greater thing I had taken over and compelled me.

I didn’t even know about Christ living in me, so I tried plenty to live by my own strength. In that sense I had to come to a crisis, when I received by faith the fact of being crucified with Christ and Him living in me (Galatians 2:20), and received the witness in my heart. But that was in reality no new thing; it was a deeper discovery of the One already there!

Then all these years, as lie led, I followed, and when He took me in ways of self-abandonment, I went with him. And that is all discipleship is! Then what about those church members, who maybe appear to us to be so lethargic—the “once-ers” on Sunday and that is about all; no missionary vision; no zeal to witness or for the prayer meeting? We must be careful about judging others; our zeal so greatly outruns our love. We are better channels of God’s grace by hopefully loving and believing that He is at work in them as He is in us, and that what He seeks He finds. But one thing we can and must do is preach “the whole counsel of God”. If we hew to the line in presenting Jesus as the One who lives His life of holiness, sacrifice, love, zeal to win others, missionary responsibility in us as the good news of free grace (Christ for us, Christ in us, Christ through us) from the first day a person is saved; if we uphold this inevitable consequence of Jesus in us, both in ourselves and our fellow believers; if our church fellowship is taught to see this in the scriptures as the normal Christian life, and the possibility of this being so in each of us because it is not we that live like this, but Christ in us; then that kind of gospel will surely be explosive as in New Testament days. The flesh will hate it, the Spirit will line up with it. Churches that line up may well have revolution before they have revival—which may be the healthiest thing.

Of course all who are called “sell all”. How can they do less for Him who did that for them, and who is now in them living that same standard of life through them? Of course they will lose their lives and find them over again in the lives redeemed through them. Those “lost lives” may mean thirty glorious years in the kitchen, at a printing press, at an office desk, or in the toil and heat of a tropical land. The way God takes them on this “selling all” road is His business.

Thank God there are many thousands in church fellowships and house groups in our land, in whom a self-giving, sacrificing, world-loving Savior lives and functions; and it is from them that the young men and women come, constrained by love that has utterly conquered them, who make up a Crusade like this, and many other such dedicated groups.

Let many more come, for there is endless room in endless needy areas of the world; while others of you equally live out Christ’s life in your home environments, yet you too share in the battle in distant lands by prayer and sacrifice. And where there are laggards—those we are tempted to judge because of coldness of heart and nominal church membership —let us love them and seek to sit where they sit, and understand and enter into what is damming up the free flow of the love of God through them. So often we shall find that it is a wrong concept of the gospel, and often we preach­ers are responsible. People think they have to be holy, zealous, victorious, alive with love to God and man; and because they are not (and never will be!) they have given up and sunk down to just a sort of passive adherence to religion. They have to be retaught that holiness, victorious living, zeal, love for God and man — everything — is merely part of God’s free gift, when He gave us Jesus, “who of God is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, and sanctification and (final) redemption”. Judgment demands, love gives. Let us give ourselves in love to such and they will learn the givingness of God.

Is there not a cross, a stripping in discipleship? Yes, but as God does the stripping, He puts glory into the hurt — and that makes all the difference. “The glory of the cross”. As C. T. Studd said: “Paul loved the music of the cross”. “Who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross”. Come on now, let us step right into the full implication of the gospel, Christ eternally living His own life in us and by us, and His life is forever self-giving for others. What a gospel, that we self­lovers can be changed into the image of the Self-giver by the simple means of daring to accept the fact that He is and will be just Himself in us!

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Source --> http://www.normangrubb.com/Articles/TrueDiscipleship.htm

Do you see how this message was tailored Michael?
Just for you [and YOU, whoever you are!]?

God Loves you THAT much!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Therefore it is not one is Holy as they yeild to Jesus for Life. One is Holy because He is Holy and we've received His Life.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael:
One is Holy as they are yielded to the Lord only.

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
So who do you minister: self, or Christ? What a fair question to ask one's self.

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Yes, a fair question indeed.

Aaron

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Originally posted by Zeena:
Aaron, I said all that I did because wparr had come against the Apostleship of Peter;

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Ah. I see that now. Thanks for the clarification.

Aaron

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Ah mistated! It was late! So, sorry Aaron

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And that, as Aaron said, we never heard about the lots apostle again is most likely the evidence that we seek. And never has anything been said that is more important concerning infallibly claiming the will of God (apart from the salvation message).

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Nevertheless, some will express Christ, solely, nearly around the clock. Others will not express Christ except on occasion, that, if they are fortunate, even though they have known the Lord and are saved. (It is the condition of the believer that 'warranted' the epistles to guide us.) This is because some will 'obey' unto life, through faith. Others, though well meaning, will not be able, because they misinterpret what HE gives them to know. And they will argue about it, all the while missing the door.

One is Holy as they are yielded to the Lord only. They are not so otherwise. There are two fountains. One is the water of life. The other is mud. The faith of the Cross cuts off the fountain of mud. But it is not automatic. There is participation, which is rewarded. But finding the faith of the Cross is not accomplished in most. Therefore, the fountain of flesh is dominant. These are called 'carnal'. (While some think they can be carnal and call themselves Holy.)

We know that others will not drink of muddy well water. But the muddy wells, rather than repent unto clean clear water, justify the muddy water, trying to make us believe (according to Romans) that it is sin in them that muddies up the water, and not them. Therefore they simply cannot help that it is there. Scripture means nothing to them; only the passages that they 'agree' with. But Jesus does not mean for them to dispense 'muddy' water.

The faith of the Cross cuts off the mudflow,and manifests Jesus. So who do you minister: self, or Christ? What a fair question to ask one's self.

One is not Holy, unless he or she abides in Holiness. This will be the crystal well. If one abides not in Holiness, they are not automatically Holy, and they are blinded by their own mud.

Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by wparr:
There is no place in Scripture that backs up what Peter states as of Elohim - In fact how did Peter determine who would be the next Apostle?

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Originally posted by Aaron:
The way I see it: just as Jesus spoke the words God gave Him when being tempted by Satan, Peter spoke the words God gave him in the matter of choosing the 12th apostle. Both men received revelation from God; revelation that required spiritual sight not academic study.

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Yes, Peter received the Word of God as given in the OT as of God, which it is.

Peter was humbly submitted to the Word of God in Scripture, as he was a new creature in Christ.

Not yet being infilled, but holy in the Lord nonetheless.

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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"And that, as Aaron said, we never heard about the lots apostle again is most likely the evidence that we seek. And never has anything been said that is more important concerning infallibly claiming the will of God (apart from the salvation message).

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Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

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Act 6:2 Then the twelve summoned the multitude of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable that we should leave the word of God and serve tables.

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1Cr 15:3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
1Cr 15:4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
1Cr 15:5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

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1Cr 15:6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.

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1Cr 15:8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

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It is obvious he was looking after the Law of God [with his regenerate [see nature] in determining to do the will of God, yes?

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Zeena:

This Scripture Peter mentioned is the Law of God.

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I think I know what you're saying. I'm just not sure where and why it came into in the discussion.

The way I see it: just as Jesus spoke the words God gave Him when being tempted by Satan, Peter spoke the words God gave him in the matter of choosing the 12th apostle. Both men received revelation from God; revelation that required spiritual sight not academic study.

Bless you sis,
Aaron

P.S. On the matter of indwelling (as a witness that we are God's children) and filling (for power) of the Spirit: they are in fact, two separate issues and they occurred at two different times for the apostles. Granted this is the Cliff's Notes version but it'll do for 11:38 at night. <- *me, yawning

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Originally posted by Billy:
(a) Test One: You must be free from bondage to sin (saved, born again).

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Nee:
"There began to dawn on him the secret of Christianity that is summarized in the words: "We have this treasure in earthen vessels, to show that the transcendent power belongs to God and not to us.' Now as he learned to trust God hourly for his very life, he came to a new place of rest in Him."

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(b) Test Two: You have to have seen the Lord with your own eyes, whether in a vision (as was the case with Paul) or physically.

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Barnabus saw the Lord Living through the Apostle Paul

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Personal witness of Nee:
'I discovered,' he says, 'that Paul was a man, and the very sort of man I knew.

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Now, obviously he's not saying he physically laid eyes on Paul, but I would surmise it to say that he too witnessed the Life of Jesus within Paul, just as Barnabus.

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(c) Test Three: You have to be an evangelist and church planter, actively traveling and spreading the gospel for Jesus Christ.

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Nee planted a whole slew of church's, praise God!

Even better, his writings are indeed equipped to build up the body of individual members. Informing them of who they are and who Christ Jesus is in and through them!

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(d) Test Four: The Lord must have used you for signs, wonders and miracles, to His glory.

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If you must, then this thread is itself a sign, for we seem to have gotten quite off track of it's original purpose and indeed have come to study and understand the Scripture through it! PRAISE GOD!

Also, above your head is the wonderful witness of brother Eden, in that he gives Glory to God for Nee, as do I

Romans 14:16
Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WildB:
More deception.

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Is there some Scriptural evidence I've missed?

If so, PLEASE feel free to point out my error!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Concerning Watchman Nee, here is something interesting from Troy Brooks's website.

How to Read Watchman Nee Properly!

1) Watchman Nee's writings were translated by Stephen Kaung into fifty-five books at Christian Fellowship Publishers from mostly Nee's magazines, plus a study guide for The Spiritual Man called Journeying Towards The Spiritual and a book for prayer, Powerful According to God. There are also three books by Kaung which are excellent. I have found these two writers, as well Jessie Penn-Lewis to be the most memorable and effective for my life. I can not even say a single thing against them in the writings themselves for their work seems perfect. This is really the only authentic and trustworthy source for Nee's writings . I have no affiliation with them. I just love deeper spiritual truths; when accepted, grace enters to produce the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Reading the Bible along with the most spiritual of Christian writers is profitable for we are not an island unto ourselves. We need two or three in agreement, and so shall it be in heaven.

2) Watchman Nee was also translated by Angus Kinnear into 5 books from Nee's magazines, plus a study guide for The Normal Christian Life and a biography, Against the Tide, at Christian Literature Crusade. At CLC are two other translations: David Smith translated Song of Songs, and Sure Foundation translated Release of the Spirit. I have found Angus Kinnear mistaken on a few occasions in his biography and the footnotes to his translations which is why I recommend just the white covers only!

3) Read only the white covers first. Later, read Kinnear's translations, then venture into other views and translations if you wish, and you will see them for what they are. This course of action is most profitable in this order. It may not seem apparent now, but years down the road these instructions will be appreciated in that it is better to start with reading that which is most spiritual, trustworthy, and accurate first.

It is better to never read Nee at all than to start reading from the false translations and false views. That will totally mess you up.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Aaron:

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Originally posted by Zeena:
And Aaron..

Acts 1 is BEFORE the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, therefore they had NO CHOICE but to rely on the Law of God.

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I don't think that's necessarily the case.

The scriptures certainly record that Peter could receive revelation from God prior to Pentecost: "For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven."

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• to fill

• to be fulfilled, to be filled

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Originally posted by Aaron:
To summarize: selecting the 12th man prior to the outpouring was to confirm the truth of Peter's sermon.

Aaron

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And indeed, Peters Sermon was truth and always will be truth! Peter had a regenerated spirit when he spoke those words he spoke from his new spirit that he recieved after being indwelt by the Holy Spirit [which he recieved when Jesus breathed on him, and them].

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

He and the rest of the Apostles were quickened that day and were made holy.

Ephesians 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Peter, a student of the Law of Israel, now made new by Jesus, said this;

Acts1:16
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

This Scripture Peter mentioned is the Law of God.

It is obvious he was looking after the Law of God [with his regenerate [see nature] in determining to do the will of God, yes?

Romans 7:22-25 & Romans 8:1-4
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Yet, the infilling of the Holy Spirit comes with prayer and desire for Him, having our minds renewed by Him. Which the Apostles continued in until they were united in faith, for indeed, they became of one accord with one another, praise God!

That's about it for me, I do not wish for there to be ANY separation in our fellowship in the Holy Spirit my brother. If you do not agree, it is definately not a faith shaking, earth shattering doctrine on which to cause division.

Yet, do feel free to post a reply as the Lord Wills

I MUST say, I've REALLY enjoyed this time of study with you all! God has shed more light, and I am thankful!

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Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Betty Louise:
I still believe Paul was called by God to be an Apostle.
betty

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zeeeeee!

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Yes He did. For He is the One who instituted that method.

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bettylouise

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There are many who want to diminish the works done by Paul, today.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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I don't know anything about Watchman Nee. However, I do know that, if he is calling himself a modern day apostle (saint, in the KJV), he is comparable to the Catholic Church, the Watchtower Society and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. These organizations have made extra-biblical claims under the premise that they have apostolic authority. However, there is a biblical test for anyone claiming to be a modern day apostle that these three organizations fail, as I'm sure Watchman Nee does.

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Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:

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Carol Swenson wrote:
...Some have suggested that Paul was God’s choice as a replacement and that the decision here was premature. That can hardly be the case. First, one qualification was that the person had been with Jesus during his whole earthly ministry (Acts 1:21-22)...
...(Hard Sayings of the Bible)...

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So, what is being taught in the book Hard Sayings of the Bible is that Paul was wrong when he claimed to be an apostle? That when he claimed, in 1Corinthians, that he had seen the Lord as evidence of his apostleship, he had fallen short of the true standard of apostleship? Who are the authors of Hard Sayings of the Bible? Just wondering. It's not that I want to call them out or anything. I just think that they have spoken wrongly, on this one.

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Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Billy:

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Carol Swenson wrote:
...Some have suggested that Paul was God’s choice as a replacement and that the decision here was premature. That can hardly be the case. First, one qualification was that the person had been with Jesus during his whole earthly ministry (Acts 1:21-22)...
...(Hard Sayings of the Bible)...

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So, what is being taught in the book Hard Sayings of the Bible is that Paul was wrong when he claimed to be an apostle? That when he claimed, in 1Corinthians, that he had seen the Lord as evidence of his apostleship, he had fallen short of the true standard of apostleship? Who are the authors of Hard Sayings of the Bible? Just wondering. It's not that I want to call them out or anything. I just think that they have spoken wrongly, on this one.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
8x10 glossing over photos: Alices Restaurant!!! "You can get anything you want at Alices restaurant (excepting Alice). Arlo Guthrie


Did God honor the drawing of lots? After all, these were His chosen (and honored) Apostles. If so, Paul is the thirteenth Apostle. If not, he completes the twelve. But as I recall there are twelve tribes, and twelve Apostles, and so on. Twelve a here; twelve a there; here a twelve, therre a twelve; everwhere a twelve twelve (144)


eek1 : .. .. .. .. .. ..

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Rev 21:14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names* of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

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1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,...

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1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers,
1Th 1:3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,
1Th 1:4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God.
1Th 1:5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
1Th 1:6 And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,

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1Th 2:1 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain.
1Th 2:2 But even after we had suffered before and were spitefully treated at Philippi, as you know, we were bold in our God to speak to you the gospel of God in much conflict.
1Th 2:3 For our exhortation did not come from error or uncleanness, nor was it in deceit.
1Th 2:4 But as we have been approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel, even so we speak, not as pleasing men, but God who tests our hearts.
1Th 2:5 For neither at any time did we use flattering words, as you know, nor a cloak for covetousness--God is witness.

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1Th 2:6 Nor did we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we (Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy) might have made demands as apostles of Christ.
1Th 2:7 But we were gentle among you, just as a nursing mother cherishes her own children.

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Carol Swenson wrote:
...Some have suggested that Paul was God’s choice as a replacement and that the decision here was premature. That can hardly be the case. First, one qualification was that the person had been with Jesus during his whole earthly ministry (Acts 1:21-22)...
...(Hard Sayings of the Bible)...

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Posts: 217 | From: overseas | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
Did God honor the drawing of lots?

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Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:

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Originally posted by Eden:
This book by Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Life saved my Christian life. I was a cranky, miserable Christian trying to suppress my sins which came to easily to me.

But when I read Watchman Nee's The Normal Christian Life, it saved my life. In it I discovered that God had crucified my old man (actually God had crucified all what belonged to the first Adam as worthless).

And from that day on I stopped trying to help God with my worthless old man, and I became a happy Christian when I discovered that God does not want my bad parts, but God does not want my good parts either. My ENTIRE old man has been condemned.

John 6:63
It is the Spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I {Jesus} speak to you, they are Spirit and they are life.

I will forever be grateful to Jesus Christ thru Watchman Nee, by the Holy Spirit, for that wonderful explanation of the book of Romans, which saved my Christian life FOR A SECOND TIME when it needed much saving from MYSELF.

love, Eden

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The Spiritual Man
CFP, Vo. 1, Part 3 THE SOUL Ch. 1
by Watchman Nee


A Christian enters a decidedly hazardous period of his life upon coming to know the truth of co-death and experiencing something of freedom from sin. If at this juncture he receives good instruction and permits the Holy Spirit to apply the cross to himself in a deeper way, he eventually will reach spiritual maturity. But if the believer is content to view his experience of victorious life over sin as the apogee of attainment and forbids the cross to contravene his soul life then he will abide in the soulical realm and mistake his soulical experience for a spiritual one. In spite of the fact his old man was dealt with, the believer’s soul life remains untouched by the cross. The will, mind and emotion will therefore continue to function without any check; and the result: his experience is confined to the realm of the soul .

It must be emphasized that to be delivered from the power of sin merely means to have our body liberated. (Of course our perfect redemption which also includes the deliverance from the presence of sin lies in the future). Not yet dealt with is the life of the soul upon which we lean. If we consider victory over sin as life on the highest plateau then we are most foolish. We are accepting the “annulling” or “withering” of the body as life supreme but ignoring the fact that over and above the body of sin stands the natural soul which requires as much dealing as does the body. A believer’s spiritual odyssey is bound to be shallow if he only knows the body unemployed (wonderful as that may be) but fails to experience the soul life denied.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Zeena:
[QUOTE]And Aaron..

Acts 1 is BEFORE the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, therefore they had NO CHOICE but to rely on the Law of God.

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I don't think that's necessarily the case.

The scriptures certainly record that Peter could receive revelation from God prior to Pentecost: "For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in Heaven."

To summarize: selecting the 12th man prior to the outpouring was to confirm the truth of Peter's sermon.

Aaron

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
Zeena

Concerning Watchman Nee, here is something interesting from Troy Brooks's website.

How to Read Watchman Nee Properly!

1) Watchman Nee's writings were translated by Stephen Kaung into fifty-five books at Christian Fellowship Publishers from mostly Nee's magazines, plus a study guide for The Spiritual Man called Journeying Towards The Spiritual and a book for prayer, Powerful According to God. There are also three books by Kaung which are excellent. I have found these two writers, as well Jessie Penn-Lewis to be the most memorable and effective for my life. I can not even say a single thing against them in the writings themselves for their work seems perfect. This is really the only authentic and trustworthy source for Nee's writings . I have no affiliation with them. I just love deeper spiritual truths; when accepted, grace enters to produce the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Reading the Bible along with the most spiritual of Christian writers is profitable for we are not an island unto ourselves. We need two or three in agreement, and so shall it be in heaven.

2) Watchman Nee was also translated by Angus Kinnear into 5 books from Nee's magazines, plus a study guide for The Normal Christian Life and a biography, Against the Tide, at Christian Literature Crusade. At CLC are two other translations: David Smith translated Song of Songs, and Sure Foundation translated Release of the Spirit. I have found Angus Kinnear mistaken on a few occasions in his biography and the footnotes to his translations which is why I recommend just the white covers only!

3) Read only the white covers first. Later, read Kinnear's translations, then venture into other views and translations if you wish, and you will see them for what they are. This course of action is most profitable in this order. It may not seem apparent now, but years down the road these instructions will be appreciated in that it is better to start with reading that which is most spiritual, trustworthy, and accurate first.

It is better to never read Nee at all than to start reading from the false translations and false views. That will totally mess you up.

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

I am also glad that Troy Brooks is not a Leeist.

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Yes, there are false books purportedly written by him [Nee] which he did not write. And twistings and false renderings of what he did. Only the truth would that devil come against, yes?

And Aaron..

Acts 1 is BEFORE the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, therefore they had NO CHOICE but to rely on the Law of God.

Though I do not say it MUST be so, it sure does seem like it..

And even though we [DO, each and every one of us] walk after our flesh or submit to the law of sin and death at times, I honestly believe that God ALLOWS it for HIS purpose, HIS Glory.

He will finish what He has started.
He alone will recieve the Glory.

--------------------
Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

Posts: 749 | From: Toronto, Canada-EH! | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WildB:
"Certainly they should have waited until the Holy Spirit fell upon them, THEN they could have more accurately picked the right person, right?Certainly they should have waited until the Holy Spirit fell upon them, THEN they could have more accurately picked the right person, right?"

Nope. For the Bible clearly states,

John.20

[22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:


So they already had received the Holy Ghost. It was at Pentecost that the were FILLED.


Acts.2

1. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost;


Please prayerfully study the Bible before posting again.

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Act 1:21,22 "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

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Act 2:5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
Act 2:6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

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Act 2:7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
Act 2:8 "And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?

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Act 2:12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, "Whatever could this mean?"
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, "They are full of new wine."

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Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, "Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.

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So Peter + the eleven (including Mathias) makes 12 witnesses to what Peter is about to preach.

The Lord knew the accusation would come and He knew who would level the accusation against the apostles: Jews. So, He prepared before the Spirit fell for the 12th man to already be selected and numbered among the 12. Our Lord left no room for the mockers to wiggle: the testimony of Peter was established by 12 credible witnesses. And all who were in earshot of Peter were about to receive an awful accusation against them: that they had, in fact, killed the Son of God.

And we all know how that turned out.

Now, there is more. There are other apostles in scripture besides the 12 Apostles of the Lamb and Paul. Perhaps I’ll add some more later.

Aaron

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Originally posted by Michael Harrison:

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Originally posted by wparr:

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Originally posted by Aaron:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by WildB:
[qb]

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

How did Messiah choose the apostles?

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Originally quoted post by me!

I have always thought of it as you do wparr, or whomever said this. Carol has a point worth thinking about. I do not know how to appropiate this though, except to think still, that the Apostles did not act out of the Spirit's 'leading', but out of 'works'; that is, self determination. I still cling to the notion that God knew that a replacement would be needed, and God knew that Paul would be on the Damascus road. And Paul was in God's timing.

quote:

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concerning woolb
[QUOTE] Of coarse your right about disputing and gossiping over other ministries/people.

But that is not what is happening here.

Exposing False Teaching helps the saved soul from missing the mark and the other lost souls from eternal damnation.

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Somehow it just seems wrong, these people who want to ferret out so called 'false teachers'. Even if they are false teachers, what do we have to do with them? People who choose to follow them have chosen their way. It is to be noted that it is very unusual to convert someone from following another's way, and I think it is much more appropiate to simply 'expound' on the truth and let the listeners decide!!! Because the Spirit will guide the 'true heart' into all truth.

There is something unhealthy and wrong about labeling others in the ministry whom we disagree with. And really! If it comes down to who are the tares, the ones who feel compelled to scream and shout over others, that this one, or that other is a fake, seem to be lacking something essential that comes from relationship. Evidently they don't have anything positive to dwell on and feel that they must disregard others to validate themselves. So also, they may be completely devoid of the Baptism of Love, which really is not optional (See 1cor13). However, if one doesn't believe in it, how will they receive?

God didn't and isn't raising up critics! He didn't say, "Go ye into all the world and "Criticize" who ye think is wrong about the gospel." HE said:

• Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Critics can only 'criticize' out of self-righteousness, which is meaningless. Rightousness which is of the Lord is not "Jealous; envious; boastful; proud; haughty;selfish, or rude! (Living Bible)so here we have that 'filter thing' again. For if one wants to know if thee are ministering of the Spirit, he or she can easily see by this list if it is the Spirit, or the flesh by using it as a filter. So if one wanted a test to see who is wheat, and who is the tare, a pretty good determination can be made by discovering if they criticize others to make themselves, or their point known. For God doesn't need those carrying the big stick to make His point for Him. He just doesn't need them. They perhaps are like the Apostle who was chosen by lot, rather than by the moving of the Spirit. So when someone disagrees with another, it should be tempered.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by wparr:

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Originally posted by WildB:

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Originally posted by wparr:

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Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:


[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

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If we were to use only this scripture Paul would not qualify to be an apostle. The ones who don't understand will attempt all sorts of rational gymnastics in an attempt to get Paul to "fit" these standards. They'll conclude that his experience on the road to Damascus somehow compensated for the fact that he was neither 1) with Jesus from the time of His baptism or 2) with the group that witnessed Our Lord's ascension.

Such reasoning, I think, arose as an answer to the Roman heresy as the fathers of the reformation attempted to disarm the Roman Catholic beast at the foundational level. Yet, in their haste to condemn the Pope and his ilk they neglected the counsel of the Spirit and spun off, themselves, into poor doctrine.

Are there any here who want to know why these qualifications were given in Acts and why Paul, who did not meet these requirements, was indeed still an apostle?

Aaron

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Those requirements Peter states in Acts are the requirements of MEN and NOT of Yahweh.

There is no place in Scripture that backs up what Peter states as of Elohim - In fact how did Peter determine who would be the next Apostle?

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

How did Messiah choose the apostles?


It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God. And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles: (Luk 6:12-13)

What was Yahshua's command to Peter and the others?

"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." (Luk 24:49)

That word stay - is also tarry, wait, to sit.

They were to wait until they received The Holy Spirit - but Peter was a man of action and couldn't just wait.
He disobeyed and performed a work of the flesh.

Paul didn't meet Peter's requirements to be an apostle - but he met Elohim's, which is the ONLY requirements that count.

It wasn't Peter's place to choose Apostles - it is Yahweh's place only as He did with Paul.

there is a great lesson to be learned in what Peter misdid - don't step out according to the flesh when Yahweh has us in a place of waiting.

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Sorry, but you are not RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word.

Why did you gloss over the fulfilling of the SCRIPTURE that PETER GOT HIS AUTHORITY FROM?

"For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Please prayerfully study more before posting.

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Same back at you: Please prayerfully study more before posting.

Peter did it in HIS timing, according to the flesh, not in Yahweh's timing.

It was Yahweh's task to pick HIS apostles.

And still the "requirements" for being an apostles was of man-made rules and NOT Scripture.

Casting lots was also NOT the way we should be operating now - but by Yahweh's Holy Spirit.
Just because Peter said a prayer before casting lots doesn't mean Yahweh was in the answer.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Zeena:

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Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
U´rim and Thummim
“lights and perfections”

Into the breastplate of the high priest were placed “the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be over Aaron’s heart when he goes in before the Lord” (Exodus 28:30). These formed the medium through which the high priest ascertained the will of Jehovah in regard to any important matter affecting the theocracy (Numbers 27:21). Even such early writers as Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis do not furnish any precise information as to what the Urim and Thummim really were. On every side we meet confessions of ignorance.

But do you agree that it is the will of our Lord Jesus Christ we pray to Him for - there is no power in these objects in and of themselves?

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The Urrim and Thurimin are stones of black and white to enquire of Jehovah between good and evil, having NOTHING to do with the HOLY!

They determine only the way the ISRAELITES walked while under the Law of God and while NOT indwelt with His Holy Spirit.

Peter was leaning on the LAW instead of Christ.

Matthew 16:1
The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.

Luke 11:16
And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

url=en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seer_stone_(Latter_Day_Saints) -->

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In the early Latter Day Saint movement, seer stones were used as method of divination and played a significant role in its history and theology. Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, owned several seer stones from his earlier career as a "money digger."[1] Other early Mormons such as Hiram Page, David Whitmer and Jacob Whitmer also owned seer stones.[2] Seer stones are mentioned in the Book of Mormon and in other Latter Day Saint scriptures. James Strang, who claimed to be Joseph Smith's designated successor, also unearthed what he said were ancient metal plates and translated them using seer stones.

Seer Stones and the Urim and Thummim

Main article: Urim and Thummim (Latter Day Saints)

In translating the Book of Mormon from the Golden Plates, Smith said he used "Interpreters", a pair of crystals joined in the form of a large pair of spectacles, which he later referred to as the "Urim and Thummim." In 1823 Smith said that an angel told him of the existence of Golden Plates, along with which would be found "two stones in silver bows" fastened to a breastplate, which the angel called the Urim and Thummim and which he said God had prepared for translating the plates.[9] (His mother, Lucy Mack Smith, described them as crystal-like: "two smooth three-cornered diamonds.")[10] Smith and his early Mormon contemporaries seem to have used the terms "seer stone" and "Urim and Thummim" interchangeably. Although Smith always referred to the Book of Mormon "interpreters" as the Urim and Thummim, he may or may not have intended to make a distinction between that device and the seer stones that he used in scrying.[11]

In 1827 Smith was revisited by the angel who revealed the location of these objects buried in a hillside. After translating the Book of Mormon Smith returned the plates and the Urim and Thummim to the angel, whom he identified as the resurrected Moroni. Joseph Smith reportedly told Orson Pratt that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was an inexperienced translator, but that as he grew in experience he no longer needed such assistance.[12]

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quote:

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there is no power in these objects in and of themselves?

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Except for a FALSE divination now that Christ is raised..

Ezekiel 14:1-11
Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?
Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the LORD will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols; That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols. Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him; That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.

1 Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Shall we all go about to search for these Urim and Thurimin, so that we may know the will of the Lord now?!!?

Ezekiel 12:11
Say, I am your sign: like as I have done, so shall it be done unto them: they shall remove and go into captivity.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:

quote:

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Originally posted by wparr:

quote:

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Originally posted by Aaron:

quote:

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Originally posted by WildB:


[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

---

If we were to use only this scripture Paul would not qualify to be an apostle. The ones who don't understand will attempt all sorts of rational gymnastics in an attempt to get Paul to "fit" these standards. They'll conclude that his experience on the road to Damascus somehow compensated for the fact that he was neither 1) with Jesus from the time of His baptism or 2) with the group that witnessed Our Lord's ascension.

Such reasoning, I think, arose as an answer to the Roman heresy as the fathers of the reformation attempted to disarm the Roman Catholic beast at the foundational level. Yet, in their haste to condemn the Pope and his ilk they neglected the counsel of the Spirit and spun off, themselves, into poor doctrine.

Are there any here who want to know why these qualifications were given in Acts and why Paul, who did not meet these requirements, was indeed still an apostle?

Aaron

---

Those requirements Peter states in Acts are the requirements of MEN and NOT of Yahweh.

There is no place in Scripture that backs up what Peter states as of Elohim - In fact how did Peter determine who would be the next Apostle?

And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles. (Act 1:26)

This was a work of the flesh

How did Messiah choose the apostles?


It was at this time that He went off to the mountain to pray, and He spent the whole night in prayer to God. And when day came, He called His disciples to Him and chose twelve of them, whom He also named as apostles: (Luk 6:12-13)

What was Yahshua's command to Peter and the others?

"And behold, I am sending forth the promise of My Father upon you; but you are to stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high." (Luk 24:49)

That word stay - is also tarry, wait, to sit.

They were to wait until they received The Holy Spirit - but Peter was a man of action and couldn't just wait.
He disobeyed and performed a work of the flesh.

Paul didn't meet Peter's requirements to be an apostle - but he met Elohim's, which is the ONLY requirements that count.

It wasn't Peter's place to choose Apostles - it is Yahweh's place only as He did with Paul.

there is a great lesson to be learned in what Peter misdid - don't step out according to the flesh when Yahweh has us in a place of waiting.

---

Sorry, but you are not RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word.

Why did you gloss over the fulfilling of the SCRIPTURE that PETER GOT HIS AUTHORITY FROM?

"For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Please prayerfully study more before posting.

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Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged |