|
Author
|
Topic: More OASAS! (OnceAlwaysSavedAlwaysSaved)
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.
ACTS 4:12
The master theme of the Christian gospel is salvation. Salvation is a picture-word of wide application that expresses the idea of rescue from jeopardy and misery into a state of safety. The gospel proclaims that the God who saved Israel from Egypt, Jonah from the fish’s belly, the psalmist from death, and the soldiers from drowning (Exod. 15:2; Jon. 2:9; Ps. 116:6; Acts 27:31), saves all who trust Christ from sin and sin’s consequences.
As these earthly deliverances were wholly God’s work, and not instances of people saving themselves with God’s help, so it is with salvation from sin and death. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). “Salvation comes from the LORD” (Jon. 2:9).
What are believers saved from? From their former position under the wrath of God, the dominion of sin, and the power of death (Rom. 1:18; 3:9; 5:21); from their natural condition of being mastered by the world, the flesh, and the devil (John 8:23-24; Rom. 8:7-8; 1 John 5:19); from the fears that a sinful life engenders (Rom. 8:15; 2 Tim. 1:7; Heb. 2:14-15), and from the many vicious habits that were part of it (Eph. 4:17-24; 1 Thess. 4:3-8; Titus 2:11-3:6).
How are believers saved from these things? Through Christ, and in Christ. The Father is as concerned to exalt the Son as he is to rescue the lost (John 5:19-23; Phil. 2:9-11; Col. 1:15-18; Heb. 1:4-14). Our salvation involves, first, Christ dying for us and, second, Christ living in us (John 15:4; 17:26; Col. 1:27) and we living in Christ, united with him in his death and risen life (Rom. 6:3-10; Col. 2:12, 20; 3:1). This vital union, which is sustained by the Spirit from the divine side and by faith from our side, is formed in and through our new birth.
Believers are saved from sin and death, but what are they saved for? To live for time and eternity in love to God—Father, Son, and Spirit—and to their neighbors. The source of love for God is knowledge of God’s redeeming love for us, and the evidence of love for God is neighbor-love (1 John 4:19-21). God’s purpose, here and hereafter, is to keep expressing his love in Christ to us, and our goal must be to keep expressing our love to the three Persons of the one God by worship and service in Christ. The life of love and adoration is our hope of glory, our salvation now, and our happiness forever.
(Concise Theology: A Guide To Historic Christian Beliefs)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
No one else here is getting a virus on their computer? I had to reformat mine, and reinstall the OS. Moreover, even though I have just done that, when I come here to post, my virus software steps up with a notification that a virus is trying to load on my computer immediately when I reach this site.
I have had trouble with these:
TR/VUNDO.GEN
HTML/INFECTED.WEBPAGE.GEN
These waltzed right past my Norton Antivirus. I got another program which is catching it. But something was already corrupted, and it was still active until i reformatted my hard drive.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Rom 2:13 "For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the 'doers' of the law shall be justified."
This'll rev up Isaiah. What a scripture huh? But before you get excited:
Vs. 20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
Do you see what I see? Vs. 13 says that the 'doer' of the law shall be justified. Yet vs 20 says that by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight. On it goes to say that vs 29 "therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Where is the doer? It can only mean one thing...
Then 4: 4-6 says, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David descrbeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works."
So where is the 'doer' of the law quoted in verse 13?
Now, vs 29 "therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
This means the whole of the law, including keeping the "Holy Days." This is based on verses 3:28,31; 4:4-6. For it is not by works or observances.
What then of verse 2:13 where it says that the doers of the law shall be justified, if immediately thereafter it says that only by faith, without the "deeds" of the law are we justified? Then how are we 'doers' of the law if it is without 'deeds', or observances (which would be deeds, or works)? (All those who love to bring up James.....need to think about this.) If there are no works, how do we 'do' the law? Trips the mind, I know! But the bottom line is that it is not by 'doing'. Therefore (and it is answered in verse 3:31) it is by having.
3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (And it could have said by 'not' doing.) 'It happens!' (By faith!) So then it happens by the happener. Therefore, by faith we receive it (that which is done by the happener). We 'do' the law not by 'doing'. It is real (To the praise of HIS wonderful Glory, Amen!) It is done for us. Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. He is the end of doing and the beginning of having, as we, by faith, trust in Him, rather than 'do' to accomplish what we think that He wants. He will do it if we will drop everything and pay attention to Him. Then we will be able to 'receive' because we are not disctacted by trying to work for Him.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
I have come to the conclusion that the problem with OSAS lies in the understanding of the word 'saved.' For, with many, the understanding is that it is something that you get, and it is done. You have it. I feel however that scripture compares us with a plant. When a seed germinates it begins to grow. Germination, I have said is tantamount to believing unto salvation. Therefore, thereafter, we have a green plant that seeks to dig its roots into Him. (See the mustard tree parable in the gospels.)
Here is how scripture expresses how this works, when taking the overall view about it. When you are a plant, for having believed, and having become saved, you have taken root in Him, and are growing (we hope). Now, you can grow into a mature tree if you are not harvested. However, you may just be a tender shoot, for the sake of argument about dying. Now, if you are harvested by the Lord while you are yet a tender shoot, which happens (we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter), it will be a case of "Absent from body, present with the Lord," for He harvested you while you were green. However:
Here is where the analogy differes with a plant. We read in scripture that the plant that does not bear fruit is not harvested with the fruit bearing ones, but is gathered together with the thorns and bristle, and placed into the fire. Unlike a plant however, we can cease to grow. In fact, this is what happens when we don't have our hand to the plow, and we are looking back instead of ahead. For, if we are overcome by the world, (looking back) we will not grow. We will not bring forth fruit. Neither will we take in water (The Holy Spirit, Parable of the Virgins etc.). Therefore we may not remain green. Also, it is like, when no rain comes, we wither up and dry out. Then we can die (harden our heart and refuse to repent). Or, unlike a plant, we can refuse to take water with the same results; moreover, if it is dry season where there is little water to take - that is when overcoming faith, of which the Bible speaks oft, comes in to sustain us that we not perish, if we, as the theme found in scriptures say most clearly, and more than once, perservere (or as Paul said, "run the race to the FINISH line if it is to count)! Notice that scripture says that "He that overcomes, will HE give them to abide with Him in the everlasting..." It is overcoming faith that wins out, not doctrine of OASAS! Doctrine of OASIS rules out overcoming faith, rendering it unnecessary. For if you 'got saved' you have a ticket, and don't need to "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
So, saved is a condition that must be 'maintained through faith, until the final goodbye. it is not something that is irreversable. Reading the scriptures objectively with this in mind will net that very understanding, unless one is willing to cast out scriptures, or 'rationalize' them to fit their sinful nature of thought.
To reiterate: A plant (someone saved) if harvested by the Lord in season (which season means, while they are of faith, in submission to His will, not backslidden, if you will) will be good to go. However, if the plant is not harvested, and yet it dries up, scripture says that it might go to the furnace.
Overall, this promotes "Fear of the Lord," and we have it said that, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom."
This is how I see scripture calling it. I do not see someone who quote, "loses his salvation," as being someone who never was saved in the first place. It leaves out way too much scripture leaving one to figure out what to do with it.
~
Concerning sanctification: If sanctification is a process, then Jesus' dying on the Cross, and being raised from the dead is a process, and it is still ongoing. But I read that He died and rose again on the Third day. That sounds like historical fact. So spiritual fact is that, "He is made unto us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption." Could this cleverly mean somehow that He was made unto us righteousness, and redemption, but that in order to save space in the manuscript, the writers included wisdom and sanctification together in the same sentence, being willing for us to break it down into its proper application, or allocation? Sanctification is something that we can have, like salvation!
Where are you going Isaiah? The Lord knows where you are at no matter where you are?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
quote:
I do sincerely believe that keeping God's commandments, sabbath and holy days are a sign between God and his people -as frontlets between their eyes (forehead-knowledge and belief) and as a sign on their hand (what they do - Deu 11:18-21) -even today. I also sincerely believe that the casting aside thereof IS the mark of the beast -which is also on in the forehead and hand (Rev 13:16-17). Anciently, sabbath keepers -"Judaizers" -were declared anathema from Christ -and this affected their ability to buy or sell in society, as those with whom they would do business -or from whom they might gain employment -refused them.
I agree with you Isaiah for what it is worth....
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Thank you for bearing with me.
I know the things I have posted are not what most believe.
I am absolutely certain.
It is because I am absolutely certain that I say these things.
I hope you write what you write to me for my benefit.
This is the reason I have written what I have written -though I do get a bit smarmy at times.
I am quite certain you will have need of them quite soon.
The bible says that where there is no vision, the people fail -I have stated what I have seen to be true so you might not fail -and I know it is by God's spirit.
I understand if you do not agree. Is there a man who thinks he is wrong? Yet we are all wrong in some things -correct in others -but only God has perfect vision.
I do sincerely believe that keeping God's commandments, sabbath and holy days are a sign between God and his people -as frontlets between their eyes (forehead-knowledge and belief) and as a sign on their hand (what they do - Deu 11:18-21) -even today. I also sincerely believe that the casting aside thereof IS the mark of the beast -which is also on in the forehead and hand (Rev 13:16-17). Anciently, sabbath keepers -"Judaizers" -were declared anathema from Christ -and this affected their ability to buy or sell in society, as those with whom they would do business -or from whom they might gain employment -refused them.
I am not declaring my righteousness -as if that were possible for any man -nor am I saying I can be righteous (which is to keep the law -which states what is right) without God, Christ and the spirit of God -but am simply saying these things are of vital importance. Have faith in God -not necessarily your own vision of the future -and -should things not go as you now think they will -please remember what was given to us by God in the beginning -which was observed and taught by Christ, the apostles and the new testament church.
It gets a bit frustrating to be the odd man out here -so fare well.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
WildB, I am glad we agree on the other parts, I do consider the BEMA Seat in my understanding of being cut off... better scholars than you and I disagree on this issue…
In HIS love
dale
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
There is a logic to what you say becaushelives, but it is not the Spirit. Until one has given HIM full control, he/she transgresses Him by trying to have it. Essentially the one is trying to control it for Him by having their efforts count. They don't! For no flesh will glory in His presence. It is God's work, and His alone.
God does not empower you to 'do'. He enables you to 'do' by way of 'having'. He has enabled you to 'have'. Therefore by having, it is 'done'. Walk ye in it. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
A flawless post except for this...
that person will eventually be cut off and be Eternally lost....
Cut off from livng on this world yes, Eternally lost no.
You forget the BEMA.
1Cor.3
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
in the mind of the religious people of His day, He had transgressed the Law , but from the word of Yahweh I know Yahshua kept the Law perfect or He could not have been the spotless lamb crucified for the sins of the world....
He kept them in Spirit, the Spirit in which they are intended for us to keep....
Yahshua went about doing good on the Sabbath, the religious wanted to say how dare you transgress the law of Moses but Yahshua always understood the wicked hearts of wicked people...
Wicked religious people still want to pervert the Laws of Yahweh's people but those that are born of the Spirit and filled with Yahweh's Holy Spirit know and obey from the heart the Spirit of the Law not the letter of the Law...
The Sabbath is the 7th day of the week, it was established when the earth was created, Yahweh wrote it in stone on the mountain gave it to Moses to give to His people on the 1st Pentecost...
on the fulfillment of the Feast of Pentecost 50 days after Yashua's fulfillment Feast of Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread and Feast of First Fruits Yahweh sent the Holy Spirit to fill the believers enabling them to kept the Spirit of the Law.
the letter of the law kills, the letter of the law is written in stone, its hard and unforgiving...
but the Spirit of the Law is written on hearts of flesh enabling the believer to give life where ever it is needed just as Yahshua did.
But being born again does not remove the believer from the temptations to return to the sin that so easily besets the human nature....
Once Saved you can never be saved again....
but If the believer refuses the constant gentle conviction of the Holy Spirit to bring a man back in to right relation with Yahweh, that person will eventually be cut off and be Eternally lost....
Yahweh is very long suffering, but there is a point where He will no longer strive with man...
if you have ears to hear, I hope and pray you hear what Yahweh is saying....
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. We are to 'obey' Him - by faith. Faith is our obedience. Faith is the 'by' in by which we obey. HE will 'do' it if we will 'follow'.
Said another way: The word of God [Jesus] is the fulfillment of the law. He fulfilled the law by His own Word [Jesus]. Therefore His word does what we can only discover - by faith. Faith understands that it is 'done'. Therefore, we are thereby gathered in HIM by resting in HIM lest we pick up a stick and be stoned. To be stoned is to be punished for sin by being separated from HIM because our efforts will not accomplish what only HE can do. Thereby are we separated. Here is why the epistles exhort faith, which basically means - realize.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
quote:
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
The understanding can block the view of the truth. The carnal mind understands this verse just like you illustrate it. But the meaning is what you are after, and that is not what it means. I know that he said to be a doer of the work, yet, I said a few posts back that:
quote:
We cannot 'do' it. We must let Him. Then it is 'accredited to us as righteousness'. Then it is as though we were accredited as 'doing' it, but it is not by us.
If HE is 'doing' it, then He lives. We have decreased and HE has increased. If we 'do' it, we live, and HE is decreased. There is a problem when we are not willing to die, that HE may live.
So, going back, you have to look at what James said:
"whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein"
[Paraphrase] Whoso 'looketh' into the law of 'liberty' he [is not] being a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work. (period). There is no command to 'do' here, only a statement that he who looks into the law of 'liberty' and does not forget it as soon as his mind wanders to something else, IS A DOER!
How do you do? By faith! Therefore, faith 'does' it, not you. And what does that mean? It means that faith is the 'rule', not works of works. It means that faith is the rule of 'having', His will done, not works of our own. But if Jesus isn't real to you, then you will not recognize this. If Jesus is removed from you, then you will be outside trying to please HIM from a distance. OOPS! That won't work. And that will be all that you will be able to do, for HE is seperate from you out there somewhere, hidden, and HE cannot bless you for you are trying to bless Him. Therefore you have Him bound because faith is not ruling you.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Isy! You are so full of certainty.
quote:
We ought not kill -or steal -bear false witness -covet -dishonor parents OR WORK ON THE SABBATH
When Jesus walked down the shore, He called to some to come and follow Him. A couple of fishermen dropped their nets and abandoned their very father, and the rest of the crew. Did they obey the law, or the fulfiller of the law? Another question is, did they dishonor their parents? Do you suppose that their father just said, "Be blessed my sons, and go?" We don't know, but I suspect that the father was torn up when his help, upon which so much depended, just up and left!
Jesus said that HE came not to send peace, but a sword! HE said that he who loveth father and mother more than HIM was not worthy of HIM. Is that keeping the law? Is "Obeying thy parents," fulfilled in rejecting them for Christ? What then of this law which you still insist on 'doing'?
Jesus is the rest of God. He is the sabbath, the finished work of God, the end of labor for the believer in Him whom we are supposed to serve. For this HE came into the world. So your logic is carnal. Even though it makes sense to you, it is not spiritual. It is of works. Will you continue to be hard headed,even though you can see that Jesus broke the rules. He healed on the Sabbath. That was 'work'. He allowed the desciples to 'eat' on the Sabbath by plucking ears of corn. And going back a little, He broke up families. What else? If these things are changed from the way it was understood by those under the Old Covenant, why do you apply the same logic that Paul said was 'wrong'? You are not under law, but under grace. Grace does not say to 'keep the law', including the letter. He said plainly that the "Letter of the law killeth."
"2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
Do you not read scripture? No one reads scripture the way it is written, for if they did, they would be broken. For Jesus said that whosoever should fall upon Him would be broken, but upon whomsoever He would fall, would be crushed. We are to be 'broken' like that alabaster box of ointment. Then cometh out a sweet smelling savor, which is pleasing to HIM. Without being broken, we are a stench.
You need to read the epistles of Paul. But you read with blinders on. You read like everyone does, confirming your understanding rather than letting Him confirm HIS to you. You have not surrendered to HIM as long as you try to 'do' to please HIM. You are trying in your own strength, and claiming it is by His Spirit. You need to surrender your heart to Jesus. (I know that sounds strange to say to a believer who is saved, but it still applies.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Grace is not an excuse for the law. Christ did indeed die because we COULD not keep the law -but this is not to say that we CAN not keep the law. Without God's spirit we COULD keep the letter of the law -else God would have been cruel for his judgments! With HIS spirit we CAN keep the SPIRIT AND THE LETTER! THE SPIRIT DOES NOT DO AWAY WITH THE LETTER!
Because Christ does it for us, in us, or whetever does not mean we do not have to do it -HIS doing it does NOT EXCUSE OUR NOT DOING IT.
We ought not kill -or steal -bear false witness -covet -dishonor parents OR WORK ON THE SABBATH
It was not turned into some ethereal nothing. It is the law and breaking it is still -as always -punishable by death. To say that you do not have to keep the commandment because Christ did is contrary to scripture and an outright lie.
To rationalize that one can break the sabbath and have faith or belief applied instead of doing what God said is not scriptural.
"Therefore, HE keeps the commandments as we rest in HIS finished work, and working."
No -he said plainly that WE need to keep the commandments.
WHEN WE DO HE INCREASES -it is him in us -and when we do NOT HE DECREASES IN US! THE EVIDENCE THAT WE ARE IN HIM AND HE IN US IS THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. ONE OF THOSE IS THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH -ALWAYS HAS BEEN -ALWAYS WILL BE -FOREVER!
1Jo 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
James seemed to think we ought to do the law..
Jam 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
I'm sorry -but what you are saying is incorrect -if we work on the sabbath we sin. No righteousness is accredited to us if we break the commandments.
It says WE should keep the law -
Rom 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfill the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jam 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jam 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Without faith it is impossible to please God. Sound familiar? If you challenge this, it is not out of faith! For, "Whatsoever is not of faith, is sin."
You have 'every' scripture screaming this (of which you have inquired), not just a few. I can not say it more plainly: You cannot live 'for' God. You offer the sacrifice of Cain to do so. You cannot contribute anything to the 'finished work'. It is a work of the flesh to try.
You live 'by' God, or you are none of His. Therefore you 'do' by God, which as I have said, is His doing it for you. The definition of this is a single word, 'Grace', which is God doing for you what you cannot do, without which it would not get done. Therefore, by God doing it for you [Grace] are you saved through faith, [in His doing it] which faith HE 'gives' to those who 'believe', which is our obedience under New Testament dispensation.
This applies also to works.
I have to take a time-out. Bach later!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
So -please clarify.
If he is in us -and he does the doing -will he keep the sabbath? -or will he -in us -go work at Walmart on the sabbath? Or can we work at Walmart on the sabbath because he is keeping the sabbath for us by resting?
Can we shoot someone because he is doing the not killing for us?
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
I know you say this -where did Christ say this?
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
You have quoted me Old Testament scripture which is the law. The most fundamental reason why Jesus came and died on the cross was that we could not 'keep' the law. We needed a savior.
Jesus kept the law. He fulfilled the law. So, neither is it ever past tense. He keeps the law. He fulfills the law. Only HE keeps the law. Only He fulfills the law. If we cannot, we cannot. But we died by baptism into His burial, by baptism into His death. So then, HE lives, not us, if our faith is perfect, if so be that we are 'risen with HIM from the dead'. Therefore, HE keeps the commandments as we rest in HIS finished work, and working.
If HE is in you, HE does the doing. If HE does not the doing, HE is not in you and you are trying in vain by the sin of Cain.
quote:
Where does it say that he keeps the commandments FOR us and that we do not HAVE TO?
I believe I said it just a moment ago:
quote:
Ah sed! quote:
Then it is 'accredited to us as righteousness', as we let HIM succeed. Then it is as though we were accredited as 'doing' it, but it is not us.
Therefore we understand what it means when scripture says to 'do'. Therefore we understand what it means when I say 'do' vs. 'have'. It is done by His doing it, meaning we are 'having' it done by Him. Do you know what scripture says: "That no flesh should glory in HIS presence?" For our flesh cannot do it. It comes by faith in the fact that HE is doing it.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Is this not that which proceeded out of his mouth?
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Are you honestly saying that because Christ kept the commandments we do not have to? or is it only the sabbath command? Where does it say that he keeps the commandments FOR us and that we do not HAVE TO?
What would be the evidence of you letting him keep the sabbath for you? Where does Christ say that he will keep the sabbath in our stead and that we can do anything we want?
What exactly ARE you saying?
We can not covet, kill, bear false witness, or commit adultery -even if Christ does the not doing for us -and this would be evidenced by no dead bodies or murderous thoughts, etc -so even if Christ does it and we do not -would not the evidence of him keeping the sabbath for you be that you would refrain from working on the sabbath -the SEVENTH DAY?
Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
or is it only forever for Israelites?
What exactly are you saying we should do that is accredited as righteousness so that we can then work on God's sabbath and be guiltless? Merely believe? be nice to people? What?
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, because HE is the Sabbath. HE is the Word of God. By HIM we live. Therefore by HIM do we keep the Sabbath by not picking up sticks, i.e. building wood, hay and stubble, but by "Every Word That Proceedeth Out of the Mouth of God."
"1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."
Not grievous! There is something profound in this manner of saying this, to be understood by us. For example: If you think about it, can you love the unlovely (to give an easy example to grasp)? Can you? Test yourself. Think about encounters with the unlovely that you have had. Yet Jesus said that if you think it (whatever) in your heart, you have already sinned and transgressed. You did it already by thinking differently than He. So if you a pleasant to somebody unlovely, yet in your heart you really are not but are rather grimacing, what have you accomplished in His sight?
But Jesus says that HIS commandments are not grievous! That means that it is not hard to love the unlovely. Then that means that we have to get out of the way and let Him love the unlovely (He must increase, I must decrease). If we are out of the way, we have entered HIS rest. Then HE loves the unlovely, and we do not have to 'try', wherein we are only trying to fool someone (ourselves even), as it were "Picking up sticks," by overruling HIM with our own failed efforts, however well meaning. This is an attempt at self-righteousness, a sin of 'doing'. We cannot 'do' it. We must let Him. Then it is 'accredited to us as righteousness', as we let HIM succeed. Then it is as though we were accredited as 'doing' it, but it is not us. We have decreased and HE has increased. Amen!
(Oh! Good stuff Carol.)
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
It was not a literal field -to work in God's field on HIS sabbath is lawful -TO WORK IN YOUR OWN on HIS sabbath IS NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! WITHIN REASON -BUT NOT YOUR OWN REASONING! HIS sabbath was made FOR US to KEEP -and we should make it a DELIGHT -not the BURDEN which is all the ridiculous don't take up your bed stuff.
So you are in fact saying we should keep the sabbath God commanded us to keep? Or are you saying we should keep it when we find it convenient -or in any manner we deem correct? Or should we keep it as God had it written -understanding both the letter and spirit of the law? Are you saying that which day is not important as long as our bodies get rest one day a week -or was the sabbath also instituted to be on a specific day to commemorate a specific event?
You see -to do good works on the sabbath is not the same as working on the sabbath. It is still unlawful to work on the sabbath -but one can do works.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all THY work: Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
It's about doing GOD'S work -and NOT doing your OWN -which the JEWS did not understand.
Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honorable; and shalt honor him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
This is spoken even of the FUTURE
Between chapters 58 and 66 there is no abolishing and reinstating of the sabbath -yet the sabbath will be kept by ALL FLESH..
Isa 66:22 For as the NEW heavens and the NEW earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. Isa 66:23 AND it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one SABBATH to another, shall ALL FLESH come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
For example -it is not wrong to go out, kindle a fire -cook all day long on the sabbath and feed the hungry. THE sabbath -specifically the seventh day -is for learning about God, teaching about God, and doing God's works TO THE EXCLUSION OF YOUR OWN -but as Christ said to those who accused him of breaking th sabbath-if your ox falls in a ditch, you're probably going to pull it out even on the sabbath day.
Notice also the sabbath has to do with WHO WILL BE IN ZION
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isa 56:7 Even THEM will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called a house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carol Swenson:
We are created in such a way that we need to sleep every night, and we need to rest one day a week. That does not mean we cannot do good on the Sabbath. It should not mean that we turn keeping the Sabbath into a rigid rule. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. God's laws are for our wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around us.
Well said.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
We are created in such a way that we need to sleep every night, and we need to rest one day a week. That does not mean we cannot do good on the Sabbath. It should not mean that we turn keeping the Sabbath into a rigid rule. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. God's laws are for our wellbeing and the wellbeing of those around us.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
He was plowing a field.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Yes -the JEWS said that -that is my point. Christ said he worked -that is not to say he would have plowed a field -but did good deeds on the sabbath. Again -I know it seems ridiculous -but bear it in mind.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Not so...Read ~
John.5
[1] After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
[2] Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.
[3] In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
[4] For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
[5] And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
[6] When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
[7] The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
[8] Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
[9] And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
[10] The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
[11] He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
[12] Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
[13] And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
[14] Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
[15] The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
[16] And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
[17] But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
I know I will not convince any -and that is not my purpose -but please bear these things in mind. I understand that they seem ridiculous as they once did to me -but you will need them.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Perhaps you did not read my post above...
Not true.
This is what Christ called straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. -and the fires refer more to industrial fires and the like -or that which is used for the work one would normally do during the rest of the week. Though doing what one can before the sabbath commences is not unwise, it is not so ridiculously rigid a law -though it was certaily more rigid then than now.
Because those in the old testament could not gather sticks -yet Christ allowed the apostles to glean corn -does not mean the sabbath was not to be kept. God was more rigid with physical ancient Isreal to cultivate obedience and lay a firm foundation -but the Lord of the sabbath was pointing out that they were getting caught up in not walking too many steps on the sabbath, etc.. and missing the point -just as some today will not even press an elevator button -but have them set to stop at every floor on the sabbath.
Christ was making the sabbath commandment more clear and spiritual -not abolishing it. He explained that it was not about making work of not doing certain things -but resting in him.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
"I believe that the sabbath and holy days should be kept "
Then dont drive a car or have a pencil in your pocket or wear a coat that you may have to carry ect ect. and make shur that you make ready the edges of your property for the poor to gleam. ect ect..
Good luck on keeping the sabbath.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
So that I might understand exactly what you mean....
Are you saying that one is wrong to keep the sabbath and holy days? Should we judge one who does and is convinced of them?
Also, if I were to keep Ramadan or some other muslim or other religious day "to God" or adopt it as a Christian observance -as were Easter and Christmas first observances of other religions stamped with Christ's name, etc.. would that be acceptable to God?
Being judged of man is one thing -but what is acceptable to God?
I do not say that God is not understanding when people do not understand -but what sort of observances would you think should not be done?
I believe that the sabbath and holy days should be kept -and do so -but not as they were kept -like the fact that instead of sacrificing a lamb, bread and wine are the passover since Christ sacrificed himself -and I do the scientific definition of work on the sabbath but not my normal weekly work, etc... but I do not condemn others who do not. It is not my place. I merely try to inform people. It is not judgment to say that God would have us keep his days -not those of our choosing -though he understands when people do not understand -yet if we kept his days we would understand and "Christians" would be less confused and separate in doctrine as a group.
and what's up with the baseball fans?
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
You Get it.
Carol Swenson
And the baseball fans enjoy your post.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Do as you will -I won't judge you for it -just saying that is not what the verses mean -no matter how many translations there are.
It says don't let any man condemn you for such -and we should not.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Col 2:16
YLT:
16Let no one, then, judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a feast, or of a new moon, or of sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of the coming things, and the body is of the Christ;
NRSV:
16Therefore do not let anyone condemn you in matters of food and drink or of observing festivals, new moons, or sabbaths. 17These are only a shadow of what is to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
TMSG:
16So don’t put up with anyone pressuring you in details of diet, worship services, or holy days. 17All those things are mere shadows cast before what was to come; the substance is Christ.
NKJV:
16So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
NCV:
16So do not let anyone make rules for you about eating and drinking or about a religious feast, a New Moon Festival, or a Sabbath day. 17These things were like a shadow of what was to come. But what is true and real has come and is found in Christ.
KJV:
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
ISVNT:
16Therefore, let no one judge you in matters of food and drink or with respect to a festival, a new moon, or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the reality£ belongs to Christ.
ESV:
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
DRB:
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat° or in drink or in respect of a festival day or of the new moon or of the sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come: but the body is of Christ.
DNT:
16Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths, 17which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.
ASV:
16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: 17which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.
RSV:
16Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. 17These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
MSNT:
16Therefore suffer no one to sit in judgement on you as to eating or drinking or with regard to a festival, a new moon or a sabbath. 17These were a shadow of things that were soon to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
NLT:
16So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. 17For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.
TEV:
16£ So let no one make rules about what you eat or drink or about holy days or the New Moon Festival or the Sabbath. 17All such things are only a shadow of things in the future; the reality is Christ.
GWT:
16Therefore, let no one judge you because of what you eat or drink or about the observance of annual holy days, New Moon Festivals, or weekly worship days. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body ëthat casts the shadowû belongs to Christ.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Not true.
This is what Christ called straining a gnat and swallowing a camel. -and the fires refer more to industrial fires and the like -or that which is used for the work one would normally do during the rest of the week. Though doing what one can before the sabbath commences is not unwise, it is not so ridiculously rigid a law -though it was certaily more rigid then than now.
Because those in the old testament could not gather sticks -yet Christ allowed the apostles to glean corn -does not mean the sabbath was not to be kept. God was more rigid with physical ancient Isreal to cultivate obedience and lay a firm foundation -but the Lord of the sabbath was pointing out that they were getting caught up in not walking too many steps on the sabbath, etc.. and missing the pint -just as some today will not even press an elevator button -but have them set to stop at every floor on the sabbath.
Christ was making the sabbath commandment more clear and spiritual -not abolishing it. He explained that it was not about making work of not doing certain things -but resting in him.
Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
becauseHElives,
I think you have me confused with someone else. I have always said "Love and Obedience." I have never said that grace means we can live a sinful life. But there is a difference between obedience and legalism. Obedience is an act of love for the very heart of the law is love. Legalism, on the other hand, is self-righteous and judgmental. Don't you understand the difference between obedience and legalism? If you have actually read all the things I have posted for the past five months, then you know I have never taught that grace means we can be disobedient to our Lord Jesus.
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
"GOD hallowed the sabbath and holy days -not man. We should be fully persuaded in how we regard HIS DAYS!"
You best not be turning on your car during these times you think.
Because your kindleing a fire!
Exod.35
[3] Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
Colossians 2:16 - 17 (NLT) 16 So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths .17 For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.Romans 14:5 (NLT)
5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable.
This "literal translation" is quite in error. This is NOT what the verses SAY -but what the translators say they say!
Col 2:16 Let no3361 man5100 therefore3767 judge2919 you5209 in1722 meat,1035 or2228 in1722 drink,4213 or2228 in1722 respect3313 of a holy day,1859 or2228 of the new moon,3561 or2228 of the sabbath4521 days:Col 2:17
This is no way says "for not celebrating certain holy days"! It says LET NO MAN JUDGE YOU in respect to these things -it does NOT say do whatever you think is right regardless of GOD's commandment! We SHOULD let GOD judge us in all these things! It does not say it it OK to disregard what God has told us to do, but that we should not let any man judge us in KEEPING THEM. They are a shadow of things to come, which is why we SHOULD KEEP THEM -so we KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN!
Rom 14:5 One man3739, 3303 esteemeth2919 one day above another:2250, 3844, 2250 (1161) another3739 esteemeth2919 every3956 day2250 alike. Let every man1538 be fully persuaded4135 in1722 his own2398 mind.3563
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth5426 the3588 day,2250 regardeth5426 it unto the Lord;2962 and2532 he that regardeth not5426, 3361 the3588 day,2250 to the Lord2962 he doth not3756 regard5426 it. He that eateth,2068 eateth2068 to the Lord,2962 for1063 he giveth God thanks;2168, 2316 and2532 he that eateth not2068, 3361 to the Lord2962 he eateth2068 not,3756 and2532 giveth God thanks.2168, 2316
Again -this in no way says... "You should each be fully convinced that whichever day you choose is acceptable."
This is not speaking of ANY DAYS, but esteeming one of GOD'S HOLY DAYS above another. This does NOT say it is OK to disregard the sabbath for sunday or any day of your choosing! It does NOT say it is OK to disregard God's holy days and instead keep the fertility rites of the babylonian mystery religion -as long as you keep them to God. NO!
GOD hallowed the sabbath and holy days -not man. We should be fully persuaded in how we regard HIS DAYS!
I am judging no one in respect to these things -merely stating things. God will judge us in all things.
The following is written of Revelation, but we should be very careful about twisting or adding to God's words.
Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Jer.17
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Yahweh knows the heart....
and those that have been born again have a new heart...
a heart that knows right from wrong and has been given Yahweh's Grace to overcome all the evil of this world.
So Those born again should NOT be able to lose their new heart?
ONHANH Once new heart always New heart.
Interesting.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Jer.17
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Yahweh knows the heart....
and those that have been born again have a new heart...
a heart that knows right from wrong and has been given Yahweh's Grace to overcome all the evil of this world.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
quote:
Originally posted by becauseHElives:
Abraham lying about his wife being his sister, and his taking Hagar and producing Ishmael or given as examples for us not to follow his examples of missing Yahweh by getting in the flesh.
Yahweh gives us the whole story about people’s of Faith…
Where they pleased Him and He blesses and where they failed Him, so we will not follow their example of unbelief.
Well ~imagine that~ The WHOLE Story...
Col.2
13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you ALL trespasses;
[14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
I thank God that I walk on this earth with a circumcissed heart...
For the natural heart,
Matt.15
[19] For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mark.7
[21] For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Jer.17
[9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Abraham lying about his wife being his sister, and his taking Hagar and producing Ishmael or given as examples for us not to follow his examples of missing Yahweh by getting in the flesh.
Yahweh gives us the whole story about people’s of Faith…
Where they pleased Him and He blesses and where they failed Him, so we will not follow their example of unbelief.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
"In Romans 4:11, 22, 23, 24 Abraham is not being credited with merely believing the promise of Yahweh but acting on the promise. He moved and acted on what he believed."
Now Im gettng angy...
So please tell the baseball fans what he was doing passing off his wife as his sister?
Gen.12
1. [13] Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.
2. [19] Why saidst thou, She is my sister? so I might have taken her to me to wife: now therefore behold thy wife, take her, and go thy way.
Or going in to have relations with his wifes maid?
Gen.16
1. [11] And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
2. [15] And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
3. [16] And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.
Thank God we don't go by the way you improperly divide the Word and dispence grace.....
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite [enubrizo, to insult, mock, snub] ... the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29 (See Matthew 7:21-23)
Carol, I am not angry at you....
I agree 100% with Paul’s teaching on “Grace”…
But I am angry at the perversion of the “Gospel of Grace” that Yahshua died to give to mankind.
In Romans 4:11, 22, 23, 24 Abraham is not being credited with merely believing the promise of Yahweh but acting on the promise. He moved and acted on what he believed.
James makes this clear, that it was an act, a work that Abraham committed and not just something he believed. James cites Abraham's offering up of Isaac. It was not just believing that imputed righteousness to Abraham, but acting on what he believed when Yahweh spoke!
So it is the act of righteousness that is imputed in Scripture, not just believing.
When Paul speaks of righteousness being imputed to us when we believe in Yahshua it's part of the text speaking of Abraham's faith being imputed. So we conclude that when Paul uses Abraham as our example that he is speaking of more than our merely believing Yahshua when righteousness is imputed, but he is speaking of acting upon all Yahshua’s stands for as Lord and teacher!
If you use Abraham as an example of imputed righteousness then you must include that fact that it was imputed when he acted upon what he believed.
With that established, then the same applies to the Christian when he believes in Yahshua. He is not merely accepting Yahshua by mental consent, but he is accepting Yahshua with all of His commandments and instruction, with all of the obedience involved in a right relationship to Yahshua.
Believing on Yahshua apart from acts of obedience and works of goodness is the faith of demons. They believe but make no commitment to His lordship. They have no acts of obedience connected to their belief in Yahshua.
So righteousness that is imputed is righteousness that we are credited with when we act upon what Yahweh speaks.
I regret that this departure from popular teaching may be a slight distraction, but more faithful to what was meant by Paul when he wrote about Abraham having righteousness imputed to him.
For righteousness to be imparted at the cross, Yahweh must impart it!
For righteousness to be imputed after the cross, Yahweh must impute it.
It is all HIS righteousness, both Grace At the cross and AFTER the cross.
At the cross I experience the instantaneous and legal aspects of salvation i.e. justification, forgiveness, regeneration (new birth) and adoption. Romans 5
Godliness is the first thing Yahweh's Grace works on and wants to accomplish in those He has redeemed.
Apostate Pentecostals have got the wagon before the horse. They have stressed miracles, healing and tongues ahead of godliness. The result has been a church now existing that claims power but without holy character.
Ungodliness speaks of the fallen nature within overruling the work of the Holy Spirit and dominating the life style.
In the Christian experience the wants of the body are pitted against the principles and values of the Spiritual man.
There is come into existence a whole generation of "Christians" who have no evidence of being actually born again in the absolute Scriptural meaning of that term. In the apostate nature, the lusts of the flesh are still operating - there is still strong pull toward the cheap and passing things of the world. This is called "carnality" by the apostle Paul. Romans 6:19; 7:14; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. So long as fleshly lusts are allowed to continue to operate in the mind and decision making of a professed Christian, they are still under the dominion of the carnal nature and lack a true experience of dominion over sin. This is not the life Christ provides for His children. Where lust (the natural appetites still being allowed their freedom to be gratified and not brought under the governing control of the Spirit of Yahshua, still dominate my behavior and I am carnal and worldly - how can I claim to be "born again"?
The Power Presence
There is only one power greater than lust: the power of the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ in us! That inner presence of Yahshua is a Power Presence! To as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of Yahweh. John 1:12.
When Yahshua takes over my life at the cross He gives me a desire to be holy after the cross!
It is this desire to be holy that comes with new birth that is our only defense against the control and domination of the carnal appetites. Lust is the desire(s) of the flesh nature prompted by pride and ego. Personal holiness is a desire to be holy. If that desire to be holy is present and properly motivating us then the lusts of the flesh will be dominated and easily governed. The only answer to controlling the desires of the flesh is the presence of a stronger desire to be holy. If you do not have that desire to be holy actually controlling your very heart and thought-life, then return to the alter of salvation until Yahweh's Spirit gives it to you!
It is here in Yahweh's presence we receive from Him all that Yahshua has purchased for us through the cross. Only Yahweh can impart it, and spiritual birth is not going to be what Yahshua intended it to be until that God given desire is present. Once the desire to be holy becomes my possession, then and then only will I be able to receive and appreciate the pure truth and doctrines of Yahweh's Word; only then will I be teachable and open to what Yahweh's Word really teaches me.
Grace teaches the Christian to say NO! To worldly lusts.
The Prince of this world has filled the environment with carnal distractions to entice us (the flesh nature) away from the holy things of Yahweh. But those who have the desire to be holy will be the only ones able to overcome these enticements.
When we put ungodliness and worldly lusts together we have the two forces working against Grace.
Ungodliness is a description of the fallen nature.
Worldly lusts is a description of the fallen environment.
The fallen nature and the fallen environment attract each other. James alludes to these two powers of sin as lust and enticement as the conceivers of sin.
A man sins when he is drawn away by his lust and enticed by the fallen environment! That is how sin happens. Again we see the pure logic of Grace teaching the Christian to say NO! To ungodliness (the impulses of the flesh) and worldly lusts (anything in the world that attracts me, from the holy life which Grace teaches).
Grace teaches us to reject and constrain the urges of the carnal nature and to separate from the worldliness. If we do not heed this teaching of Grace we will digress morally until we become lost, fallen from Grace.
Positive Grace follows negative Grace teaching us to LIVE!
What does life under Grace consist of?
To live soberly, righteously and godly (Titus 2:12)
Grace teaches us to live a positive life. We need further proof that a holy life is the life of authentic Christianity. Soberly is a right relationship with ourselves.
Sobriety simply implies having control of ones mental faculties, self control. The Grace of Yahweh that bringeth salvation teaches us to be sober.
Righteously speaks of a right relationship with others. (See THL No. 5889) Godly speaks of a right relationship with God, tobe God-like.
So, Grace teaches me to have a (1) right relationship with my own inner man and consciousness, (2) a right relationship with others in life around me and (3) a right relationship with God. Only God's Grace teaches such things effectively.
In this present world (Titus 2:12)
So it is now and in this world that we are to live holy and godly lives and not in the next world. There is not one single thing said in this inspired passage describing Grace as a teacher that implies in the least way that the only righteousness we have is the righteousness of Christ.
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us FROM ALL INIQUITY, AND PURIFY UNTO HIMSELF A PECULIAR PEOPLE, ZEALOUS OF GOOD WORKS. (Titus 2:13-14)
This is Grace!
Liberal false teachers tell us that Yahshua never intended for us to obey the moral commandments He taught in the sermon on the mount. (Matthew 5 through 7).
They teach that Yahweh gave those commandments to prove to us that we were just not capable of living a holy life as Yahshua described. They further teach that by being incapable of any righteousness of our own,
They teach the only righteousness we have is the righteousness He gives us by faith.
That my friend, is the doctrine of demons, idiots and apostates, but it is not according to the doctrine of the Bible! IN THIS PRESENT WORLD clearly states that CHRISTIANS, TODAY, IN THIS REAL WORLD, CAN LIVE A HOLY LIFE BY THE GRACE OF GOD!
The righteousness we have as Christians is the righteousness that He teaches us, and in that sense, it is indeed the righteousness of Yahshua.
Also, we were redeemed to enter this discipleship relationship, and in that sense it is the righteousness of Yahshua. The fact that Yahshua is in me living out a life according to Grace is also all the righteousness of Christ! It is true that we have no righteousness except the righteousness of Christ, but it is righteousness lived out through the will of the inner man. I can frustrate that Grace; I can do despite unto that Grace, and lose that Grace. But if Grace, the Grace of Yahweh that bringeth salvation, is working in me then ungodliness and worldly lusts will be denied and diminish from my life.
And now, brethren, I commend you to Yahweh, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified. Acts 20:32.
At the cross Yahweh did something for me that I could have never done for myself –
He washed me in redeeming blood and made me a new creation with a whole new nature that is in perfect harmony with kingdom law, a new desire to live in holiness, and a new mind eager to receive the truth of Yahweh's Word and the divine morality. That is amazing!
After the cross, Yahweh does something else for me which is impossible for me to do for myself, He nurtures that new nature, which He gave me at the cross, by the power of His Spirit and the truth of His Word. That is amazing! The regenerate life matures as it feeds upon the knowledge of Yahweh growing into the stature of the fullness of Christ. This is all the operation of Grace.
It is all the work of Yahshua,
by Him,
through Him
and unto Him!
I have become a disciple sitting at His feet to learn and grow as I learn.
But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Yahshua Messiah. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
2 Peter 3:18
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
In a nutshell, if I may, I will tell you where I believe a misunderstanding comes in.
The so often quoted Ephesians verse that we all know....By the grace of God are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast....in this context a person may believe that all that they need to do is say a prayer to be saved. If this was the case then it would look to contradict with this verse of Pauls in 2Thess.1 which states.. In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.....where we see that a mere profession(though necessary) is not sufficient. There must also be a response in faith. We must answer to the call of Jesus in becoming one of His disciples.
In the past I have struggled with this verse in Ephesians which is showing faith to come as a gift from God.....which is very unlike many other passages on faith throughout the New Testament.
Jesus seems to use the word faith to imply trust. Oh ye of little faith (trust). In the book of Acts Jesus emphasizes where our faith needs to be......Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith THAT IS IN ME.
So, in what sense does Paul mean that faith is a gift then? I have wrestled with this issue much in the past and this is the conclusion that I have come up with. I contend that Paul is trying to show us that there should be no dichotomy between "what faith is" and "who Christ is". So the word "faith" in the context of this passage in ephesians 2, Paul could be using to emphasize "the faith" which God has established (not man). It appears that substituting the word "Christ" for the word "faith" would seem to flow with Pauls expression....for ex: By the grace of God are ye saved through CHRIST, and that not of yourselves: it is THE GIFT OF GOD...
with love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
becauseHElives,
Don't know why you're angry at me all the time, but I still think the world of you.
quote:
Paul’s doctrine of Christian liberty through grace is not the dangerous doctrine.
quote:
Carol, you are so wrong…..the misunderstanding of “Grace” has the majority of the so called Church on the way to Hell.
Are you saying that Paul's doctrine on grace is wrong ?
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Carol Swenson
Admin
Member # 6929
|
posted
Die before you die. There is no chance after.
C. S. Lewis (1898–1963)
Posts: 6787 | From: Colorado | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
|
posted
The premise of “Once Saved Always Saved” is that you can not be cutoff from Yahweh once you are His….
I do not need but one scripture to prove that is a lie from the pit of Hell…
Romans 11: 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
First off, Carol …. Yahweh has never had any other plan than “Grace” to save His people….
Only difference is how “Grace” was achieved.
In the Old Testament it was the animal sacrifice looking forward to the day Messiah would come.
Old Testament looking forward to that day…
New Testament looking back at that day….
But every Old Testament Saint (true believer) understood it was “Grace “that made them worthy….
Just as every True Believer in the New Testament knows it is “grace” that saves…
The greatest difference between today and then is the infilling of the Holy Spirit….
Old Testament Saints could not know the infilling of the Holy Spirit as today because Yahshua had not went to the Father, His Blood was not on the mercy seat and the Holy Spirit had not yet been sent.
quote:
Paul’s doctrine of Christian liberty through grace is not the dangerous doctrine.
Carol, you are so wrong…..the misunderstanding of “Grace” has the majority of the so called Church on the way to Hell.
Romans 6
1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Isaiah
Advanced Member
Member # 6699
|
posted
I have to sleep, but wanted to point out an example -
Dan 3:10 Thou, O king, hast made a decree, that every man that shall hear the sound of the cornet, flute, harp, sackbut, psaltery, and dulcimer, and all kinds of music, shall fall down and worship the golden image:
Dan 3:11 And whoso falleth not down and worshipeth, that he should be cast into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.
Dan 3:12 There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
The love of man could have caused these three to reason that they should worship the idols so that their friends did not come to harm -but the love of God was more important, so they obeyed the command of God concerning false gods regardless -and were saved mightily by God. Had they disobeyed God they might not have been cast into the furnace, but would be niether cold nor hot to God -and he would have spewed them out of his mouth one way or another.
Posts: 288 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
