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» Christian Message Boards   » Bible Studies   » Exposing False Teaching   » The Flaws of the "Fall Theory"

   
Author Topic: The Flaws of the "Fall Theory"
Isaiah
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True, the word translated soul also refers to animals -in fact, the same two words describing Adam as a "living soul" describe animals being "living creatures" in Gen 1:21.

However, the bible also says elsewhere that there is a spirit in man -and that man can eventually also have God's spirit within them.

There are some who would change words and meanings for evil purposes -including Satan, but for the most part it is due to imperfect language, and misunderstanding leading to mistranslation.

But... it was actually God himself who decreed that the truth would be difficult to extract -even from scripture -requiring a diligent and sincere search for a full understanding of any one subject, and causing those not prepared to do so to fall back!

"Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken."

...but soon God will give us one pure language which does not give such place to misunderstanding....

"Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent."

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Aaron
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Adam and Eve were made in the image of God at conception.

quote:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
And, as is the character of a Father who is a King, God establishes a place for His children to learn to rule:

quote:
Gen 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Gen 2:19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name.

But, after sin, they (the man and the bride) fell from their place of rule and from the grace of their Father.

Through redemption (to bring back what was lost) by the blood of the Lamb, the bride is restored to the husband-redeemer and to her Heavenly Father through the same way the 1st bride came from man: through the flesh of the husband.

quote:
Hbr 10:19-20 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh...
Redeemed man can have fellowship with his Father God. Also, man's place of rulership (like his Kingly Father's) is restored:

quote:
1Pe 2:9 But you (the redeemed) are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light...
And the children of God can mature into the huios: the mature sons fully capable of ruling as their Father rules.

Aaron

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scythewieldor
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Dear friends,
Unfortunately, interpreters have introduced corruption into our versions of the Bible.
That being the case, it behooves us to examine the Hebrew words which are rendered "living soul".
After that examination, some of our efforts to understand creation shall be known as based upon misinformation.
quote:
Ge 1:21 And God <0430> created <01254> (8799) great <01419> whales <08577>, and every living <02416> creature <05315> that moveth <07430> (8802), which the waters <04325> brought forth abundantly <08317> (8804), after their kind <04327>, and every winged <03671> fowl <05775> after his kind <04327>: and God <0430> saw <07200> (8799) that it was good <02896>.

Ge 1:24 And God <0430> said <0559> (8799), Let the earth <0776> bring forth <03318> (8686) the living <02416> creature <05315> after his kind <04327>, cattle <0929>, and creeping thing <07431>, and beast <02416> of the earth <0776> after his kind <04327>: and it was so.

Ge 1:30 And to every beast <02416> of the earth <0776>, and to every fowl <05775> of the air <08064>, and to every thing that creepeth <07430> (8802) upon the earth <0776>, wherein there is life <02416> <05315>, I have given every green <03418> herb <06212> for meat <0402>: and it was so.

Ge 2:7 And the LORD <03068> God <0430> formed <03335> (8799) man <0120> of the dust <06083> of <04480> the ground <0127>, and breathed <05301> (8799) into his nostrils <0639> the breath <05397> of life <02416>; and man <0120> became a living <02416> soul <05315>.

Ge 2:19 And out of the ground <0127> the LORD <03068> God <0430> formed <03335> (8799) every beast <02416> of the field <07704>, and every fowl <05775> of the air <08064>; and brought <0935> (8686) them unto Adam <0120> to see <07200> (8800) what he would call <07121> (8799) them: and whatsoever Adam <0120> called <07121> (8799) every living <02416> creature <05315>, that <01931> was the name thereof <08034>.

As you can see, the word translated 'living' has been given the Strong's ref. # of 02416, and the word interpreted 'soul' has been given the Strong's ref. # of 05315.
When you compare those renderings with others, it becomes obvious that some kind of prejudice (if not some kind of malice to dis-inform) was expressed in the interpretation.

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Isaiah
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A bit off the subject, but....

It is obvious that there were humanoids and other creatures on earth some time before Adam -

But let's not forget that before Adam and Eve -(as well as all the animals from which all the animals we now encounter are descended) -could be created, the earth had to be made suitable for life AFTER IT HAD BECOME (H1961) FORMLESS AND VOID.

Adam was the FIRST MAN -this is not to say he was the first humanoid creature -(we do not know if God was field-testing various designs, for example) -but to say that Adam and Eve were descended from any others is not scriptural. They had no mother or father, but did have beginning of days. It is not beyond God to bring a man into existence quite instantaneously.

Mat 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

This is no exaggeration.

As for Cain's mark -it was not necessarily a visible one or even considered by men -if it was, God would need to make sure everyone knew what it meant -which is possible -but it could have also been a decree of God -which simply made it impossible that any kill Cain -Just as he says "let there be..." and it was... he could also say 'let there not be...' -and men wouldn't even have to think about it -just as he kept some from doing certain things in other circumstances. Just a guess.

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Michael Harrison
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As close as i can come to that 4P, is this. Suppose that evolution had merit. (But let's call it intelligent design rather.) Scripture says that God formed man from the dust of the ground. Now let us suppose that this could have taken eons. Let's suppose! Now over the course of time, man evolved, let's suppose. So now we have a man, so to speak. He is a living being. He is not yet a living soul.

What happened? What happened is this; God breathed a soul into man when he had fully developed into man. To conclude this you have to believe that the verse Gen 2:7 covered a very, very long period of time over the course of one single scripture. But let's suppose.

Now we have a man who has a soul, whom He placed into a garden that He had just made. So man has a beginning, and it is in relationship to God. He still would have been created in relationship with God, and the sin of the fall would not have yet occurred. Of course the children will have not yet come, because Eve had not yet been. (What does it mean that He made Eve from one of the ribs of man?) So, bottom line, either way, Adam was first, then Eve, then sin, then sinful offspring.

I was listening to one of those preachers the other day, month, year or so, who was well versed in Jewish tradition, and learning, who stated that Cain didn't necessarily mean to kill Able. It would have been manslaughter, which resulted from the assault. He demonstrated that Cain may not have known that Able would die. This leads me to ponder what the mark was that was given Cain so that they would not kill him?

So, i wonder about the rib. i wonder about the mark. There are a lot of things to ponder here, but nothing comes close to what you have supposed.

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Isaiah
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I rarely agree, but... me too [Razz]

Until Adam and Eve sinned, they had access to the tree of life -and were not subject to death -though they were still flesh.

All humans are made in the image and likeness of God -we actually look like him... have similar, yet decreased, abilities... he gave us creativity unlike animals... and the potential to become immortal.

Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

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lonlesol
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Me too...
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Carol Swenson
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Me too.
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becauseHElives
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I'm with waynemlj

--------------------
Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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waynemlj
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Hi 4Pillars,

Your version of the "Fall" is quite a strange one, I'm afraid, since it doesn't square with Scripture.

God's last act of creation is described in Gen.1:26:-27,"And God said,'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.'

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

That sounds like a very special creation to me. God didn't create any other creature in His own image . . . only man.

And in Gen.2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

All this very special act of creation for man was before the Fall. God didn't breathe into the nostris of any other creature that He made, but man.

When man disobeyed God, he lost his spiritual connection to God, and that's when everything went wrong -- pride, (Cain), envy, (Cain), murder (Cain killed his brother Abel).

From then on it was a downward spiral of evil as the earth became more populated.

waynemlj

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4Pillars
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Adam and & Eve were natural living souls (earthly) before they were created in the image and likeness of God (heavenly).

In the day Adam & Eve were created in the image and likeness of God, both have already committed their "original sin", and Cain had already killed Abel. A&E were the first couple to be redeemed by the Lord. Therefore, not everybody is created in the image and likeness of God, unless, one call upon the name of the Lord.

Most certainly, Cain who was a murderer from the beginning was not created in the image or likeness of God.

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