|
Author
|
Topic: Where is Jesus?
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
I am delighted to quote someone whose web site i only recently discovered:
“Victory is a Person—Our Savior—not a behavior!”
Dan Augsburger
Deelighted! Thanks Y'all!
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged | 
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
When somebody tries to exhort, and particularly edify another by expressing the living truth, if it is not well received, and another wants to strive over it, what do you suggest? Does the speaker deny the Lord who brought him, and let darkness prevail over the church, in order not to create strife and division??? I will submit that when one is truly lined up with His will, the church will be added to by the testamony of the whole edified church.
Are you doing right now exactly what you are accusing others of? If you have something blessed to say to lead others to Jesus, why not just say that?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi CWO4GUNNER,
Its nice to meet you. I respect what you say and I agree that our passion should be for the unbeliever. I am not here to stir up strife. If I disagree with something I explain what I disagree with and why. I will not pretend to agree with something only in order to maintain peace. Michael and I have been back and forth with each other on certain issues for a while now. We are constantly in a learning process. If we are afraid to voice our own thoughts or opinions, then how can we grow? On this site I work through issues with other christians hoping to grow together spiritually. If the unbelievers are going to benefit from us, yes, it is going to be from a body of believers that love each other and grow together in a unified search for truth in God's word.
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
CWO4GUNNER
Advanced Member
Member # 6971
|
posted
As a body of believers we need to be mindful in front of unbelievers what we are stirring up and for who's benefit, "The Way" or our own selfish strife. Let us not forget that there are 150,000 people on the planet dieing each day, the great majority of which are unbelievers while we quibble on a public stage instead of edifying.
WARNING!
1 Timothy 6: 3-5 If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.
Posts: 54 | From: Bullhead City, AZ | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Keith
unregistered
|
posted
Heb 7:25-8:2 25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
CHAPTER 8 1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 9:11-12 11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Jesus is in the temple, or sanctuary in heaven, where He ever liveth to make intercession for us. Praise God, we cetainly need it.
Heb 7:24-28 24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
Heb 2:14-18 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Heb 4:13-16 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
This is where the Father and the Son are directing the affairs of all creation, particularly the affairs of this world in preperation for the soon second coming.
Rev 7:14-17 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 11:18-19 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Rev 14:15 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:17 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 15:4-8 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev 15:4-8 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
Rev 16:17 17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
By for now. y. b. in C. Keith
IP: Logged |
|
|
WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
|
posted
Acts.7
[55] But he(Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Ok! Check this out. You, like we all do, like i used to want to 'do', was things, to serve the Lord. However, once upon a time i came to realize that i didn't want to do what He wanted me to do. It was a serious matter! I wanted, like Adam and Eve, to do it on my own, to contribute, which is the basis for most if not almost all devotion to God!!! I didn't want to 'do' what He was most interested in - surrender!
Bear wid me an ahl shew yew how that it does say that bearing fruit in service, is unto life everlasting, which is by obedience. (As if i haven't already. (later)) Moreover however this sounds, dictionaries are woefully limited instruction manuals. They actually are roadblocks because one reaches an erronious conclusion which they wouldn't if they would go to the head from which all things are held together, submit their concern, and trust until it comes.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Hi Michael,
You said "obedience is bearing fruit". I have looked up the word ""obedience in at least 3 different bible dictionaries and I dont recall any reference to "bearing fruit". This is what I do find.....
Layman's Bible Dictionary
Obey. To submit to authority. Children are commanded to obey their parents (Exod. 20:12; Eph. 6 1-3. Jesus was obedient to Joseph and Mary (Luke 2:51). Jesus was perfectly obedient to the Father, and He requires obedience of His followers (Heb. 5:8-9).
Vines Concise Dictionary
Obedience. Hupakouo (5219), "to listen, attend" (as in Acts 12:13) and so, "to submit, to obey," is used of "obedience" (a) to God, Heb. 5:9, 11:8; (b) to Christ, by natural elements, Matt. 8:27; Mark 1:27; 4:41; Luke 8:25; (c) to disciples of Christ, Luke 17:6; (d) to the faith, Acts 6:7; the gospel, Rom. 6:17 (as to a form or mold of teaching); (e) to apostolic injunctions, Phil. 2:12; 2 Thess. 3:14; (f) to Abraham by Sarah, 1 Peter 3:6; (g) to parents by children, Eph. 6:1; Col. 3:20; (h) to masters by servants, Eph. 6:5; Col. 3:22; (i) to sin, Rom. 6:12; (j) in general, Rom. 6:16.
Wycliffe Bible Dictionary
Obedience. The Heb. and Gr. words translated by "obey" or "obedience" are usually shama and cognate forms of akouo, both of which carry the basic meaning of "hearing." In fact, many times when the translator confronts these words and their cognates it is very difficult to determine whether "hear" or "obey" is the most appropriate rendering. This difficulty, however, gives an insight into the basic biblical concept of obedience, a concept which holds true for both the OT and the NT.
Although obedience expresses an action which can exist in oridinary human relationships(such as servants to masters or children to parents), its most significant reference is to a relationship that should exist between man and God. God reveals Himself to man by His voice and words. Words are intended to be heard. This obviously involves a physical reception of the words with a presumed mental apprehension of their meaning.
But in terms of man's reception of God's revelation, this in itself is not true hearing. True hearing is faith which receives the divine Word and translates it into action. It is a faith response. It is a positive, active response, not merely passive listening and consideration. To hear is to act. In other words, to really hear God's word is to obey God's word. In the NT the idea of putting oneself under responsibility to obey the heard Word is cleary emphasized by hupakouo, a compound of "under" and "hear."
Many passages referring to hearing and obedience have this matter of positive, active response in view. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" The Wise man is the one who "hears these words of Mine, and acts upon them" (Mt 7:24). "My sheep hear My voice....and they follow Me" (Jn 10:27). With regard to the Revelation he had received on Patmos, John said, "Blessed are.....those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed to the things which are written in it" (Rev. 1:3,NASB). There is to be no dichotomy between hearing and obedience. True hearing is obedience. Faith itself involves obedience, and Jesus, Paul, and James make it quite clear that true faith issues in obedience.
END
Michael, I do not see any reference to obedience and "bearing fruit" in any of these definitions. You are entitled to believe anything you want anyway that you want, and I have to respect that......but here I am seeing a big problem......you like to use your own personal definition for words......that certainly makes it confusing when trying to get to the bottom of things.
Not only that, you made no reference to my post whether you agreed or disagreed with it....so we just continue to move on in confusion.
Once again, my position is that if you believe that Jesus does all the works and all the obeying, that you are showing Jesus to be vain seeking His own glory. I am a fellow-believer in Christ speaking of the importance of obedience because I am concerned for the glory of God, not because I am trying to figure out a new way to gain acceptance into Heaven. Do you see and understand the difference, Michael?
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ![[Bible]](graemlins/bible.gif) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( Gal4:6 )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
When you put on the Lord Jesus Christ, do you lose your identity? Who or what do you identify with as a believer? More than likely it is with some-thing; or do you identify with Him? You might think that you are identifying with Christ, but it might only be with something about Him – a thing about Him. There is a difference. If you identify with a thing about Him, it will dictate your behavior to the extent that it will likely determine your denomination. I say likely, but in fact it will determine this, and your behavior in other ways.
If you identify with something about Him, you become what you identify with, and behave that way even according as to a denomination. A good example might be the Pentecostals. Do they identify with something about Him? I assert that they do. They identify with the Pentecost experience and walk and talk accordingly. This can be very strange to some people!
But and if you look at what one would associate with Pentecost, which we can see illustrated right there in the book of Acts, you will see these same expectations of His moving then, acted out by those believing now. And did I say acted out? I did, but why? Well, is most of what they do acting? Don’t get me wrong. I am only asking. But I will assert that genuine fruit is born, not of acting, but born out of identification with Him, and their acting out is however, in sufficient amount, out of relating to the experience and blessing of Pentecost rather than reality. It is in relating to the experience, particularly past experience, rather than to Him in the now. Scripture calls it superfluity of zeal, and they attempt to make things happen according to what they have understood, for the security that comes from relating to, or believing in this way, and relationship with others who also do.
I understand why. It is what it is, and you, whoever, desire more of it. However, this doesn’t happen by working the spiritual up. In fact, the same tends to brings reproach upon the faith because much of the acting out is just that, rather than substance. So you see! They identify with something, which is some-thing about our Lord Jesus, and they behave that way, one-to-one. It is in what they identify with. (Therefore they are ashamed of me now, to speak this way.)
So, the problem comes by way of their thinking that they are themselves that way. They are not that way. He is! But they are not identifying with Him, rather with that which is about Him, which is an experience, or attribute about Him. Truly, if they identified with Him, they would discover what they were looking for, and more.
Others, if they ever were to identify with Him, (this is called true relationship) would realize that His identity is their perfection, not their foolish efforts to accomplish anything towards it, which is actually sin. If they would identify with Jesus, willfully, if they would discover how, they would realize what they were trying to accomplish without all of the effort. This is called victory. It is also called the life that is Christ. The reason why, is because in identifying with Him, rather than in something about Him, you yield to Him; thereby you receive what He desires to give to you, or impart to you. Therefore, you walk in it. By identifying with Him, you become what He wants you to be – Christlike!
Ok! Jesus is your perfection, and since you don’t ‘do’ anything to accomplish this perfection apart from to believe and to receive Him by His grace, which is merely by identifying with Him by believing, by identifying with Him, you can bear fruit in service. Therefore, obedience is bearing fruit in service, not doing something for Him. After all, what does it mean to ‘serve’ Him? Does that mean to serve him by doing, as a maid would serve her employer?
“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.” (Gal 4:6)
“Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. “(Gal 4:7)
You are not a servant, serving as in obeying like a maid or manservant. You are a son! Let that shake you into realizing, that as a son, you are an heir of God through Christ. And please note that you are an heir of who He is, and it follows, of what He has. You are an heir of God. From that comes:
“According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge [knowing] of him that hath called us to glory and virtue” 2Pe 1:3
I ask you again: Do you identify with Jesus, your personal savior, or with things that you like about Him? It is ok to identify with Him, for there life is! Get personal with Christ. You will not lose your identity. You will realize that you are a new creature in Christ.
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
oneinchrist
Advanced Member
Member # 6532
|
posted
Jesus is presently exalted to God the Father's right Hand of all power and might in the Heavens. Yes, He is risen! Our living Hope is in His return.......This is a literal truth, not merely symbolic or metaphorical speech.
Jesus told His disciples that after His ascension the "comforter" would come; therefore,
the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives bears witness to the exaltation of Jesus.
If someone says that Jesus is in their heart, it is not literal in the sense that Jesus descends from the throne to enter into a person, but it is literal in the sense that the "Holy Spirit" AKA the "Spirit of Christ" comes to live in us.
Michael, I have put some serious thought into what you have been saying about Jesus being the One who does all the works. It has been my understanding that God does not glorify Himself. The Father glorifies the Son and the Son glorifies the Father. If we say that Jesus is the One doing the works or He is the one who is doing the obeying, do we not make Jesus vain in seeking His own glory?
If a miracle is committed unto us, it involves our willfull obedience with the intent to glorify God, and this is coupled with an authorization from Christ for the Holy Spirit to help carry out a task in accordance with His will. So even the Holy Spirit does'nt "do it all", it is a "helper".
With love in Christ, Daniel
Posts: 1389 | From: Wind Lake, WI | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
Michael Harrison
Advanced Member
Member # 6801
|
posted
Where is Jesus? He is supposed to be on the throne. Well, is He? You may think that this is a very strange question to ask here. However, it has an important aspect to it to consider if you are already a believer.
Sometime immediately after I came to Christ I was shown a booklet designed for soul winners to use to lead people to salvation. It was produced by the Campus Crusade for Christ. In it there was a place where it described our relationship to our Lord. It used circles and a throne to illustrate its message.
Now, in those days the illustration was by way of three different circles. In the first drawing you had a circle, and within the circle was a throne drawn. Outside of the circle was a cross, which represented Christ. This illustration represented someone who is unsaved, and Christ was outside of their life.
The second circle differed only in the respect that the cross was inside the circle. This, at that time represented that the person had received Christ as their savior. I say at that time because I have seen the booklet recently and it has apparently changed. It is sad too, because, the third circle had very meaningful significance in relation to the second. But before I get to that, it is important to understand something about the second circle - that is that the cross, (which represented Jesus), by being in the circle, (representing the heart), illustrated that the person was a believer, therefore saved.
There was a problem with the diagram as it relates to the believer's life however. Though Christ was in the heart of the believer, as represented by the cross, He was displaced. He was not where He was supposed to be, as represented by the cross. It was barely inside the circle. The reason why? Jesus was crowded out, or pushed aside. He was not allowed to be first, or rule in the person’s life. This can be represented by the parable of the sewer which represents the body of Christ, I am sad to say:
“He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.” (Mat 13:22)
It does not say here that they were not saved, only that they were unfruitful. Not only, concepts and beliefs which are short of what they should be cause this very same displacement, that Christ is in the life, but not Lord of it, which is dangerous to a believers spiritual health. So!
I didn’t mention that outside of the circle in the second illustration were drawn some dots, representing the affairs of one’s life. In the case of the second circle, they were in disarray, not pleasantly arranged in geometric fashion, representing showing order in one’s life; or in the case of circle two, disorder.
The third circle differed from the first two in that the cross was on the throne, which was drawn directly in the center of the circle. This represented that Christ was placed first in their life, and in their heart. Christ was on the throne of their heart. He was no longer squandered into a back room with self seated firmly on that throne as the second case shows.
Outside of the circle in the third illustration the dots were arrayed symmetrically indicating that Jesus was Lord of their life, and His order was in place because He was properly on the throne of the heart. It is a beautiful illustration. Do you realize that you are the guardian of the throne? If you fail in this, that is to put Him first in your very heart, do you know that it means that idolatry has displaced Him?
Posts: 3273 | From: Charlotte N.C. | Registered: Sep 2007
| IP: Logged |
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view of this topic
