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Author
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Topic: Trinitarian Evidence Is All False
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
You have alot of If's there. One of them that is wrong is the idea that the house Christ built was Israel, that was the house that moses built not Jesus.
Actually you are in the dark over this point because the scriptures that the Holy Spirit uses says this of Moses
quote:
For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
Moses didn’t build the house of Israel he was part of the house of Israel. God built the house of Israel long before Moses came along and Jacob is the one you see the actual start of the house of Israel. So Moses was just a part of the house of Israel that God built. But in this scripture it says that Jesus had more glory than Moses in that He built the house
So then the scripture says that God built all and that all includes Israel which the scripture says that Jesus is the builder of the house so then the conclusion is that God and Jesus are the same.
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1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
God the Father done all the creating.
Hebrews 3:1-4 states
quote:
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The difference in honor between Jesus and Moses is the difference between the Creator and the creation. He who builds a house, the creator of it, has more honor and glory than the house that is built, the creation. This is the measure in which Jesus is counted to be above Moses. Israel is the "house" that Moses was a part of. Jesus is the builder of that house.
If Jesus built the house that is Israel and built the house that is the Church and if God built all things then Jesus is God.
You have alot of If's there. One of them that is wrong is the idea that the house Christ built was Israel, that was the house that moses built not Jesus. The one Jesus built was the new testament church. Jesus built the church on ideas. He didnt create the church He built the church. Learn the difference.
Matt 16:18
18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
(NKJ)
You build something from something. You create something from nothing.
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
God the Father done all the creating.
Hebrews 3:1-4 states
quote:
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
The difference in honor between Jesus and Moses is the difference between the Creator and the creation. He who builds a house, the creator of it, has more honor and glory than the house that is built, the creation. This is the measure in which Jesus is counted to be above Moses. Israel is the "house" that Moses was a part of. Jesus is the builder of that house.
If Jesus built the house that is Israel and built the house that is the Church and if God built all things then Jesus is God.
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1 Corinthians 2:2
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brotherbrown
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posted
GOD THE FATHER IS THE CREATOR
2 Cor 5:18
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
1 Pet 4:19
19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God(Father) commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator(Father).
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ(Jesus), the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ(Jesus) is God(Father).
Eph 2:10
10 For we are His(Father) workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God(Father) prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Eph 3:8-11
8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God(Father) who created all things through Jesus Christ;
10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God(Father) might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places,
11 according to the eternal purpose which He(Father) accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
Col 1:13-20
13 He(Father) has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son(Jesus) of His(Father) love,
14 in whom we have redemption through His(Jesus) blood, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by Him(Father) all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him(Jesus) and for Him(Father).
17 And He(Father) is before all things, and in Him(Father) all things consist.
18 And He(Jesus) is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He(Jesus) may have the preeminence.
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him(Jesus) all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him(Father) to reconcile all things to Himself(Father), by Him(Jesus), whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His(Jesus) cross.
Rev 4:11
11 "You are worthy, O Lord(Father), to receive glory and honor and power; for You(Father) created all things, and by Your(Father) will they exist and were created."
Mark 10:6
6 "But from the beginning of the creation, God(Father) 'made them male and female.'
Rom 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His(Father) invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His(Father) eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
John 5:37-40
37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me(Jesus), has testified of Me(Jesus). You have neither heard His(Father) voice at any time, nor seen His (Father) form.
38 "But you do not have His(Father) word abiding in you, because whom He(Father) sent, Him(Jesus) you do not believe.
39 "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me(Jesus).
40 "But you are not willing to come to Me(Jesus) that you may have life.
Rom 11:32-36
32 For God(Father)has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God(Father)! How unsearchable are His(Father) judgments and His(Father) ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him and it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him(Father) and through Him(Jesus) and to Him(Father) are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.
(NKJ)
THROUGH CHRIST---REASON FOR WAS CHRIST
xxxThe deffinition of through- is reason for. So God created everything through or for the reason of Jesus. God created everything for Jesus sake.
Heb 1:1-6
1 God(Father), who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His(Father) Son(Jesus), whom He(Father) has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He(Father) made the worlds;
3 who being the brightness of His(Father) glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His(Father) power, when He(Jesus) had by Himself(Jesus) purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty(Father) on high,
4 having become so much better than the angels, as He(Jesus) has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He(Father) ever say: "You(Jesus) are My(Father) Son(Jesus), today I(Father) have begotten You(Jesus)"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He(Jesus) shall be to Me(Father) a Son"?
6 But when He(Father) again brings the firstborn(Jesus) into the world, He(Father) says: "Let all the angels of God(Father) worship Him(Jesus)."
2 Cor 3:4
4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God(Father).
Gal 4:7
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God(Father) through Christ(Jesus).
Phil 4:7
7 and the peace of God(Father), which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Phil 4:13
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8
8 First, I thank my God(Father) through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
Rom 5:21
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
2 Cor 5:18-19
18 Now all things are of God(Father), who has reconciled us to Himself(Father) through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
19 that is, that God(Father) was in Christ(Jesus) reconciling the world to Himself(Father), not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
(NKJ)
xxx God the Father done all the creating. God the Father sent His Son Jesus to pay for our sins. And to be an example of how to worship God the Father in the right Spirit. God created Jesus first before anything else. Then God had someone to love. God had someone to give to, but Jesus didnt have anyone that He could give to. So God created everything else through Jesus or for Jesus. The heavens and the earth were created for Jesus. Now to purchase them Jesus had to die on the cross. We all have to prove ourselves to God. Jesus proved Himself, and made the way that we can prove ourselves.
GOD EVEN CREATED JESUS
John 17:5
5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me(Jesus) together with Yourself(Father), with the glory which I(Jesus) had with You(Father) before the world was.
Col 1:15
15 He(Jesus) is the image of the invisible God(Father), the firstborn over all creation.
Rev 3:14
14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, 'These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness(Jesus), the Beginning of the creation of God(Father):
(NKJ)
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
As long as you continue to peddle your error of eisegesis, Brotherbrown, you will have NO CREDIBILITY with any Believer.
God manifest in the flesh, the image of God in whom the fulness of the Godhead dwels, is the most basic doctrine of the Christian faith.
You deny sound doctrine and thus bring a truly corrupt theology.
You are a false teacher Brotherbrown and a messenger of error and deception.
2 Peter 3:
16.... which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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posted
Col. 1:
1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1:17
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
1:19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
image--exact likeness and perfect Representative. Adam was made "in the image of God" (Genesis 1:27). But Christ, the second Adam, perfectly reflected visibly "the invisible God" (1 Timothy 1:17), whose glories the first Adam only in part represented. "Image" (eicon) involves "likeness" (homoiosis); but "likeness" does not involve "image." "Image" always supposes a prototype, which it not merely resembles, but from which it is drawn: the exact counterpart, as the reflection of the sun in the water: the child the living image of the parent. "Likeness" implies mere resemblance, not the exact counterpart and derivation as "image" expresses; hence it is nowhere applied to the Son, while "image" is
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
You see there you go again adding to the Word to support your theology.The Word say the Son WAS created and you say He wasnt.
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)
It doesnt say Jesus was created according to Melchisedec, it says Jesus preisthood was according to Melchisedec.
Thou art a priest
You all seem to add alot of imagination to your beliefs. I'm sorry but I cant do that. {/quote]
In the Colossians scripture the word that is thranslated firstborn is the word prototokos whhich literally means first begotton. There is no creation involved here but lets look at the same word being used in the scriptures that shows that prototokos is not a creation
[quote]Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Here it is not saying that Jesus was the first creation from the dead it was saying that he was the first one begotten from the dead. In Colossians Paul is writing about humanity being born into the household of God of God. Jesus Christ is indeed first. He is the first of all humanity to be born as God.
Now that is one wild stretch of the imagination.
What part of "firstborn over all creation." dont you understand.
Now just what part of that verse says"Paul is writing about humanity being born into the household of God of God."
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)
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Favor Minded
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Member # 4661
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posted
quote:
T7 wrote: Yes, we know what the Word says about opinions, yours as well as mine;
and you are expressing opinion not sound doctrine;
using a handful of scriptures over and over, in thread after thread, while ignoring so much other scripture, and the entire Old Testament, is not true presentation of the Gospel.
AMEN!!
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
You see there you go again adding to the Word to support your theology.The Word say the Son WAS created and you say He wasnt.
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)
It doesnt say Jesus was created according to Melchisedec, it says Jesus preisthood was according to Melchisedec.
Thou art a priest
You all seem to add alot of imagination to your beliefs. I'm sorry but I cant do that. {/quote]
In the Colossians scripture the word that is thranslated firstborn is the word prototokos whhich literally means first begotton. There is no creation involved here but lets look at the same word being used in the scriptures that shows that prototokos is not a creation
[quote]Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Here it is not saying that Jesus was the first creation from the dead it was saying that he was the first one begotten from the dead. In Colossians Paul is writing about humanity being born into the household of God of God. Jesus Christ is indeed first. He is the first of all humanity to be born as God.
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1 Corinthians 2:2
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
It says its the Father. And trinitarians totally deny that.
No we clearly know the distinction of the Father from the Son who is also eternal without beginning of days. If the Son is eternal then the Son wa not created (bara--- something created out of nothing) but was after the order of Melchisedec
quote:
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
This was speaking of Jesus and this is the order of Melchisedec
quote:
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
You see there you go again adding to the Word to support your theology.The Word say the Son WAS created and you say He wasnt.
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
(NKJ)
It doesnt say Jesus was created according to Melchisedec, it says Jesus preisthood was according to Melchisedec.
Thou art a priest
You all seem to add alot of imagination to your beliefs. I'm sorry but I cant do that.
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BrianGrass1234
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posted
The bible says God is one and three. Thats it. So either God is somehow one and three or its all made up and who cares. If you believe there is only GOD and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are something else, then you have to say scripture that says the contrary are wrong. If you believe they are three Gods, then the parts that talk about one God are wrong. Well if some parts are wrong then all it could be wrong as far as I'm concerned.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
It says its the Father. And trinitarians totally deny that.
No we clearly know the distinction of the Father from the Son who is also eternal without beginning of days. If the Son is eternal then the Son wa not created (bara--- something created out of nothing) but was after the order of Melchisedec
quote:
Hebrews 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
This was speaking of Jesus and this is the order of Melchisedec
quote:
Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
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1 Corinthians 2:2
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
If you knew you were deceived you wouldnt be deceived.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
Well one of us needs to repent, and one of us is deceived.
Tell me this, how do trinitarians do this?
They take a perfectly good sentance and chop it up.
It says "yet for us there is one God, the Father"
and they can only read "yet for us there is one God". How do they just stop reading who the one God is? It says its the Father. And trinitarians totally deny that.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
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WildB
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posted
If you knew you were deceived you wouldnt be deceived.
Repent while the day is yet called day.
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That is all.....
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
quote:
You would be suprized to know how many people doesnt know that He only quotes verses.
Where did you ever get that idea? It may indeed be revelation, but I can assure you it is NOT revelation from God.
God exists in three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible, it expresses a scriptural truth; in fact, it was coined by one of the early Latin Christian writers to set forth the truth that God is a Tri-unity of Persons.
The term Godhead (Godhood) refers to God's essence or divine Being; and is a proper statement of truth to say that there are three Persons in the Godhead.
The Old Testament emphasizes the unity of God; that is, it asserts that there is but one God, in contrast to the many false gods of the heathen; nevertheless, there are intimations in the Old Testament of the fact that God exists in a plurality or Trinity of Persons. For example, the Spirit of God is mentioned in Genesis 1:2; the Son is mentioned in Psalm 2:7, 12; and there are plural expressions in a number of places which show that God is a Trinity.
"And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).
The New Testament, while fully recognizing the unity of God, emphasizes the fact of the three Persons.
Three Persons - One God
The Bible presents to us a Father who is God (John 3:16), a Son who is God (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1), and a Holy Spirit who is God (Acts 5:3, 4); yet these are not three Gods, but one and the same God.
It is difficult, if not impossible, to explain what the word Person means as applied to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are accustomed to think of persons as individual human begins, and we know that three persons cannot be one being. The Persons of the Godhead are clearly distinguished from one another in many passages of Scripture; yet they cannot be separated. This truth is beyond complete understanding by our finite minds.
No illustration of the Trinity will suffice to explain this relationship, but we can perhaps get some help by trying to express the relationship mathematically. Men would ordinarily say of the Persons: one plus one plus one equals three. But it would be more accurate to say: one times one times one equals one, for each of the Persons is fully God in the absolute sense, and the three together are the one self-same God.
It is not possible for me to explain this truth fully, but it is necessary to know and to state clearly what the Bible actually says.
Throughout the Scriptures the Gospel message is plain: God the Father sent His Son to redeem fallen man; The Son willingly came to die for the sins of the world; and the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, regenerates the heart by the Word of God which He inspired, takes the things of Christ, and shows them unto us who love Him (see John 16:12-15).
Colossians 2:9 speaks very plainly: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
Further Bible proof of the Trinity
You have already seen Bible proofs of the Trinity. One of these is the use of the plural in reference to God. In creating man, God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26). If there were only one Person in the Godhead, does it not seem unlikely that God would use the words "us" and "our" in this instance? Would He not have been more likely to say, "I will make man in my image"? (see also Genesis 3:22). Again, in Isaiah 6:8 God refers to Himself as "I" and "us", indicating both unity and plurality in the same Being.
Another Bible proof of the Trinity is the fact that each of the Persons is individually called God.
You say that, over and over. And yet you cant prove it. Why? Do you know that if your deceived you cant know that you are. Because if you knew you were deceived you wouldnt be deceived.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Favor Minded:
The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.
You are disputing Jesus you know.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
quote:
What did i miss here. No one has shown me in the Word of God that satan can quote new testament verses. We know he quotes old testament but not new testament. I would welcome evidence proving these revelations wrong. But you cant dispute the Word of God with your own opinion it takes scripture to do that. Now when I first read these revelations I didnt have an arguement against them so I thought maybe if you all seen them you could dispute them, but with verses not your own opinion. We know what the Word says about our own opinions.
You seem to have missed quite a lot!
When Yeshua, the WORD who was/is/is to come God,
was made flesh and tabernacled with man,
HE quoted scripture,
Old Testament Scripture,
there was no New Testament written for Him to quote.
The 12 quoted Old Testament scripture, there was no New Testament written to quote,
Paul, James, Jude.
To use one of your favorite lines -
"your argument has no logic".
The Holy Spirit brings to rememberance everything That HE ever said and did, not JUST written verses.
Yes, we know what the Word says about opinions, yours as well as mine;
and you are expressing opinion not sound doctrine;
using a handful of scriptures over and over, in thread after thread, while ignoring so much other scripture, and the entire Old Testament, is not true presentation of the Gospel.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Favor Minded
Advanced Member
Member # 4661
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posted
quote:
You would be suprized to know how many people doesnt know that He only quotes verses.
Where did you ever get that idea? It may indeed be revelation, but I can assure you it is NOT revelation from God.
God exists in three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This is called the doctrine of the Trinity. Although the word Trinity is not in the Bible, it expresses a scriptural truth; in fact, it was coined by one of the early Latin Christian writers to set forth the truth that God is a Tri-unity of Persons.
The term Godhead (Godhood) refers to God's essence or divine Being; and is a proper statement of truth to say that there are three Persons in the Godhead.
The Old Testament emphasizes the unity of God; that is, it asserts that there is but one God, in contrast to the many false gods of the heathen; nevertheless, there are intimations in the Old Testament of the fact that God exists in a plurality or Trinity of Persons. For example, the Spirit of God is mentioned in Genesis 1:2; the Son is mentioned in Psalm 2:7, 12; and there are plural expressions in a number of places which show that God is a Trinity.
"And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" (Genesis 1:26).
The New Testament, while fully recognizing the unity of God, emphasizes the fact of the three Persons.
Three Persons - One God
The Bible presents to us a Father who is God (John 3:16), a Son who is God (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1), and a Holy Spirit who is God (Acts 5:3, 4); yet these are not three Gods, but one and the same God.
It is difficult, if not impossible, to explain what the word Person means as applied to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We are accustomed to think of persons as individual human begins, and we know that three persons cannot be one being. The Persons of the Godhead are clearly distinguished from one another in many passages of Scripture; yet they cannot be separated. This truth is beyond complete understanding by our finite minds.
No illustration of the Trinity will suffice to explain this relationship, but we can perhaps get some help by trying to express the relationship mathematically. Men would ordinarily say of the Persons: one plus one plus one equals three. But it would be more accurate to say: one times one times one equals one, for each of the Persons is fully God in the absolute sense, and the three together are the one self-same God.
It is not possible for me to explain this truth fully, but it is necessary to know and to state clearly what the Bible actually says.
Throughout the Scriptures the Gospel message is plain: God the Father sent His Son to redeem fallen man; The Son willingly came to die for the sins of the world; and the Holy Spirit convicts of sin, regenerates the heart by the Word of God which He inspired, takes the things of Christ, and shows them unto us who love Him (see John 16:12-15).
Colossians 2:9 speaks very plainly: "In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily."
Further Bible proof of the Trinity
You have already seen Bible proofs of the Trinity. One of these is the use of the plural in reference to God. In creating man, God said, "Let us make man in our image" (Genesis 1:26). If there were only one Person in the Godhead, does it not seem unlikely that God would use the words "us" and "our" in this instance? Would He not have been more likely to say, "I will make man in my image"? (see also Genesis 3:22). Again, in Isaiah 6:8 God refers to Himself as "I" and "us", indicating both unity and plurality in the same Being.
Another Bible proof of the Trinity is the fact that each of the Persons is individually called God.
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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Favor Minded
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Member # 4661
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posted
The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.
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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father
Posts: 129 | From: WA | Registered: May 2005
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
quote:
I am a born again Christian, that is the only way for me to have all these verses from the Holy Spirit.
And that first statement you made doesnt make any sense at all. I'm an evangelist that is what I do I go around and demonstrate the Holy Spirit. You would be suprized to know how many people doesnt know that He only quotes verses.
It is not for me to judge whether you are a born again Christian.
That is not the ONLY way for you to know verses, satan quotes verses.
Several people have shown you that the Holy Spirit doesn't JUST quote verses; but you fail to see the truth they have presented you.
T7
What did i miss here. No one has shown me in the Word of God that satan can quote new testament verses. We know he quotes old testament but not new testament. I would welcome evidence proving these revelations wrong. But you cant dispute the Word of God with your own opinion it takes scripture to do that. Now when I first read these revelations I didnt have an arguement against them so I thought maybe if you all seen them you could dispute them, but with verses not your own opinion. We know what the Word says about our own opinions.
Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
(NKJ)
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Thunderz7
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quote:
I am a born again Christian, that is the only way for me to have all these verses from the Holy Spirit.
And that first statement you made doesnt make any sense at all. I'm an evangelist that is what I do I go around and demonstrate the Holy Spirit. You would be suprized to know how many people doesnt know that He only quotes verses.
It is not for me to judge whether you are a born again Christian.
That is not the ONLY way for you to know verses, satan quotes verses.
Several people have shown you that the Holy Spirit doesn't JUST quote verses; but you fail to see the truth they have presented you.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
and It sounds like your suggesting that people give up the Word of God for Authority.
Profile for Brotherbrown
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 6606
Registered: June 20, 2007
Posts: 75
Are you a male or female?: male
I noticed that you did not mark that you were a born again Christian?
Why?
I am a born again Christian, that is the only way for me to have all these verses from the Holy Spirit.
And that first statement you made doesnt make any sense at all. I'm an evangelist that is what I do I go around and demonstrate the Holy Spirit. You would be suprized to know how many people doesnt know that He only quotes verses.
1 Cor 2:4-7
4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,
(NKJ)
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
(NKJ)
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WildB
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posted
and It sounds like your suggesting that people give up the Word of God for Authority.
Profile for Brotherbrown
Member Status: Advanced Member
Member Number: 6606
Registered: June 20, 2007
Posts: 75
Are you a male or female?: male
I noticed that you did not mark that you were a born again Christian?
Why?
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brotherbrown
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posted
It sounds like your suggesting that people give up the Word of God for theology.
THE ONLY BEGOTTEN WORD=(HE)(HE IS A SPIRITUAL TITLE OF AUTHORITY) THE ONLY BEGOTTEN WORD(HE) CAME THROUGH THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD (JESUS)
John 1:17-18
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
John 12:49-50
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
50 "And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."
Heb 8:6
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 14:24-25
24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
I Jn 1:1-3
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
John 1:14
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 1:1-11
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
Heb 4:12-13
12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
2 Pet 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;
20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation,
21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.
Mark 16:15-16
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
2 Cor 3:5-6
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,
6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Matt 6:22-24
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light.
23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
2Pet 3:16-17
16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I Jn 1:1-5
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--
2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things we write to you that your joy may be full.
5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all.
I Jn 2:23-24
23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
(NKJ)
The Word of God is the power by which all things in heaven and earth submit. The Word came forth from God for all to receive this power. And the power was always given through a mediator. God was the original mediator that created it. And God gave it to Jesus. And Jesus gave it to us. Then the Word was given to the Holy Spirit that distributes it from each individuals conscience(book of beliefs) in their mind. If and only if that individual has read the bible and put it in their beliefs(conscience). And when an individual has died to self by following the Holy Spirit(verses) and been born again. Then Jesus takes over the Word through the revelations of Jesus Christ, and rewrites their belief system(conscience). The Word of God is the power that all will have to answer to. This power is what justifies or condemns all and everything. God created it the power, and is willing to share it with those who will submit to it. Jesus was the first to submit to it on earth fully, and by that He was our example of how to receive it. When one totally submits to it the power(Word) the Word becomes alive in them. And by becoming alive in them we see the Word become flesh.
Note in verse 14 He the Word is full of grace and truth. And in verse 17 that grace and truth came through Jesus Christ
Jesus Christ is not the Word. Jesus Christ is the human that submitted to the Word as an example to us, to follow. Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God. That the only begotten Word of God came through.
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
(NKJ)
Some earlier translations* of the bible echo this understanding...
John 1:3 - The Geneva Bible (1587)
Quote:
All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.
Jesus was called the Word of God. Why was He called the Word of God? Jesus was called the Word because He only let the Word of God out of His own mouth.
Rev 19:13
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
John 12:48-49
48 "He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him-- the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.
(NKJ)
Jesus was called Beelzebub. Why was He called Beelebub? Because people were worshiping the wrong god.
Matt 10:25
25 "It is enough for a disciple that he be like his teacher, and a servant like his master. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more will they call those of his household!
2 Cor 11:14-15
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
(NKJ)
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WildB
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posted
Its clear to all that mr Brown is here to cause the little ones to fall.
"I can see you dont believe in the new testament.
You dont abide(live) in the doctrine of Christ."
NASB: Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, (NASB ©1995)
GWT: With this in mind, we should stop going over the elementary truths about Christ and move on to topics for more mature people. We shouldn't repeat the basics about turning away from the useless things we did and the basics about faith in God.(GOD'S WORD®)
KJV: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
ASV: Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
BBE: For this reason let us go on from the first things about Christ to full growth; not building again that on which it is based, that is, the turning of the heart from dead works, and faith in God,
DBY: Wherefore, leaving the word of the beginning of the Christ, let us go on to what belongs to full growth, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and faith in God,
ERV: Wherefore let us cease to speak of the first principles of Christ, and press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
WEY: Therefore leaving elementary instruction about the Christ, let us advance to mature manhood and not be continually re-laying a foundation of repentance from lifeless works and of faith in God,
WBS: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God,
WEB: Therefore leaving the teaching of the first principles of Christ, let us press on to perfection-not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God,
YLT: Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
Hebrews 6:1 Cross References
XREF: Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
Hebrews 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (NASB ©1995)
To lay the foundation once is enough, if it is laid right.
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Acts 8:
27: And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28: Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29: Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30: And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31: And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32: The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34: And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35: Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Isaiah 53:
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
How fortunate that there was no BrotherBrown around to deny the validity of God's Word.
Acts 17:
1: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
10: And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
It was NOT the New Testament scriptures out of which Paul reasoned, and to which the noble Bereans turned.
2 Tim. 3:
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
BEWARE of teachers such as BrotherBrown, who deny that God was incarnated and manifest in the flesh, and wrest scriptures to their own deception and destruction.
. Who created the heavens and the earth?
A. God
1. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His
handiwork.
3. Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of
them by the breath of His mouth.
B. Jesus
1. John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and
without Him nothing was made that was made.
2. Colossians 1:13-17 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us
into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His
blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over
all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All
things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him
all things consist.
3. Hebrews 1:3-10 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His
person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself
purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so
much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name
than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have
begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But
when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God
worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His
ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and
ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved
righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With
the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning
laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
II. Who is God?
A. God
1. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
2. John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and
Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
3. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man
Christ Jesus,
4. Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have
chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me
there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
5. Jude 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and
power, Both now and forever. Amen.
B. Jesus
1. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an
understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His
Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
2. Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A
scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
3. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
III. Who is the Lord of lords?
A. God
1. Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great
God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.
2. Psalms 136:1-4 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth
for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give
thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth
great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
B. Jesus
1. Revelation 17:14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome
them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called,
chosen, and faithful."
IV. Who is the Savior?
A. God
1. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
2. 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
3. Jude 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and
power, Both now and forever. Amen.
B. Jesus
1. Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and
Savior Jesus Christ,
2. 2 Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
3. 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior
of the world.
V. Who is I AM?
A. God
1. Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall
say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
B. Jesus
1. John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I
AM."
VI. Who is the Holy One?
A. God
1. Isaiah 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the
LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
2. Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
3. Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
4. Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and
such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that
smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
5. Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect
to the Holy One of Israel.
6. Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among
men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
B. Jesus
1. Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
2. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine
Holy One to see corruption.
3. Acts 3:14-15 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to
be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of
which we are witnesses.
I can see you dont believe in the new testament.
You dont abide(live) in the doctrine of Christ.
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
(NKJ)
You believe in a different doctrine, the doctrine of the trinity. They mix the old testament and the new testament together to form a different doctrine than the doctrine of Christ which is the new testament.
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WildB
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Member # 2917
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posted
"the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name"
Trinity~
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That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
VII. Who is the Shepherd?
A. God
1. Psalms 23:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2. Ezekiel 34:11-12 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my
sheep, and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is
among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them
out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
B. Jesus
1. Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy
angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be
gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd
divideth his sheep from the goats:
2. John 10:11,14 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the
sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
VII. Who raised Jesus from the dead?
A. God
1. Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your
heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
B. Jesus
1. John 2:19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I
will raise it up."
VIII. Who shed His blood for the church?
A. God
1. Acts 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the
Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased
with His own blood.
B. Jesus
1. 1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and
without spot.
2. Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own
blood, suffered outside the gate.
3. Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of
sins.
IX. Who is to be worshipped?
A. God
1. Exodus 34:14 '(for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is
Jealous, is a jealous God),
2. Deuteronomy 30:16-17 "in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to
walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that
you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go
to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn
away, and worship other gods and serve them,
3. 2 Chronicles 7:19 "But if you turn away and forsake My statutes and My
commandments which I have set before you, and go and serve other gods, and worship
them,
4. Matthew 4:9-10 And he said to Him, "All these things I will give You if You will fall
down and worship me." 10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is
written, 'You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.'"
B. Jesus
1. Matthew 2:2 saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have
seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him."
2. Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all
the angels of God worship Him."
3. John 9:35-38 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when He had found him, He
said to him, "Do you believe in the Son of God?" 36 He answered and said, "Who is He,
Lord, that I may believe in Him?" 37 And Jesus said to him, "You have both seen Him and
it is He who is talking with you." 38 Then he said, "Lord, I believe!" And he worshipped
Him.
C. Who is not to be worshipped?
1. Acts 10:25-26 As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and
worshiped him. 26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I myself am also a man."
2. Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "See that you
do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony
of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
3. Revelation 22:8-9 Now I, John, saw and heard these things. And when I heard and
saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9
Then he said to me, "See that you do not do that. For I am your fellow servant, and of
your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship
God."
X. Who is the First and the Last?
A. God
1. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
2. Revelation 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of
life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall
be my son.
B. Jesus
1. Revelation 1:10-18 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great
voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and,
What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia;
unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis,
and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. 12 And I turned to see the voice that spake
with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the
seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the
foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and his hairs were white
like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like
unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many
waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp
twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And
when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying
unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead;
and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
2. Revelation 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith
the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
XI. Who is the Husband?
A. God
1. Jeremiah 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you:
and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
2. Jeremiah 3:20 Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye
dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.
3. Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the
day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my
covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
4. Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy
Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
B. Jesus
1. Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body
of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead,
that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
2. 2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused
you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3. Ephesians 5:22-33
4. Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the
seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will
show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
XII. Who is the Rock?
A. God
1. Deuteronomy 32:3-4 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye
greatness unto our God. 4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are
judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
2. 1 Samuel 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is
there any rock like our God.
3. 2 Samuel 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
4. 2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God, save the LORD? and who is a rock, save our God?
5. Psalms 28:1 A Psalm of David. Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to
me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.
6. Psalms 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I
mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?
7. Psalms 62:1-2 To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David. Truly my soul
waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. 2 He only is my rock and my salvation;
he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.
8. Psalms 62:6-7 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be
moved. 7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is
in God.
B. Jesus
1. Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will
build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
2. Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of
offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
3. 1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that
spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
XIII. Who is the King of Israel?
A. God
1. Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
2. Zephaniah 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine
enemy: the king of Israel, even the LORD, is in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil
any more.
B. Jesus
1. Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel,
let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
2. Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see
and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
3. John 1:48-49 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered
and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I
saw thee. 49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God;
thou art the King of Israel.
4. John 12:12-15 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they
heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 Took branches of palm trees, and went
forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the
name of the Lord. 14 And Jesus, when he had found a young *** , sat thereon; as it is
written, 15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an *** 's colt.
5. Matthew 27:11 And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him,
saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest.
6. Matthew 27:29 And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his
head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked
him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
7. John 19:19-21 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was,
JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20 This title then read many of the Jews:
for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in
Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin. 21 Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write
not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews.
XIV. Who is the King of the earth?
A. God
1. Psalms 47:2 For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth.
2. Psalms 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding.
3. Jeremiah 10:6-7 Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O LORD; thou art great,
and thy name is great in might. 7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to
thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all
their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee.
4. Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under
the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose
kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
5. Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there
be one LORD, and his name one.
6. Zechariah 14:16-17 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the
nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the
King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that
whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the
King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
7. 2 Thessalonians 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that
ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
8. Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and
peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
9. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate,
nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards,
nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
B. Jesus
1. Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor
covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of
God.
2. Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
3. 2 Timothy 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who
shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
4. Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a
sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
5. 2 Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the
everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
6. Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in
the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the
word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
7. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in
heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of
his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one
baptism)
a. Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through
righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
b. Acts 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who
believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
c. Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be
saved, even as they.
XV. Who is the King of kings?
A. God
1. Daniel 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is
a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest
reveal this secret.
B. Jesus
1. 1 Timothy 6:14-15 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable,
until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall show, who is
the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
2. Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome
them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called,
and chosen, and faithful.
3. Revelation 19:13-16 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name
is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon
white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a
sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod
of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.
XVI. Who is the true God?
A. God
1. Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting
king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his
indignation.
2. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and
Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
B. Jesus
1. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an
understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even
in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
XVII. To Whom is glory to be given?
A. God
1. Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to graven images.
2. Isaiah 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should
my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
3. Malachi 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my
name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your
blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
4. Revelation 7:9-12 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could
number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne,
and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried
with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto
the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and
the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and
power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
5. Revelation 14:6-7 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the
everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and
kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to
him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth,
and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
B. Jesus
1. Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have
followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory,
ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
2. Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels
with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
3. Luke 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
4. Hebrews 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord
Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is
wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
5. 2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus
Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
6. Revelation 5:11-12 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about
the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand
times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; 12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is
the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and
honour, and glory, and blessing.
XVIII. Are we to honor the Son just as we honor the Father?
A. John 5:21-23 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so
the Son quickeneth whom he will. 22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed
all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour
the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent
him.
B. John 12:44-45 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but
on him that sent me. 45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
C. John 10:27-33 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And
I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck
them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no
man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then
the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works
have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The
Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and
because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
D. John 14:7-9 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from
henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the
Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you,
and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;
and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
1. Hebrews 1:1-3 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past
unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who
being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all
things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on
the right hand of the Majesty on high;
XIX. Is Jesus Yahweh (Jehovah)?
A. Jeremiah 23:5-6 "Behold, the days are coming," says the LORD (Yahweh), "That I will
raise to David a Branch of righteousness; A King shall reign and prosper, And execute
judgment and righteousness in the earth. 6 In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel
will dwell safely; Now this is His name by which He will be called: THE LORD (Yahweh)
OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
XX. Is Jesus God with us?
A. Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall
conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel (Immanuw'el,
im-maw-noo-ale'; from H5973 and H410 with suff. pron. ins.; with us (is) God) Strong’s.
XXI. Was God manifest in the flesh?
A. 1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was
manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles,
believed on in the world, received up into glory.
XXII. Is Jesus equal with God?
A. John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had
broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with
God.
XXIII. Are we to address Jesus as God?
A. John 20:24-29 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them
when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the
Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put
my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then
came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach
hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And
Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not
seen, and yet have believed.
XXIV. Unto Whom will every knee bow?
A. God
1. Isaiah 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I
the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none
beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God,
and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in
righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue
shall swear.
B. Jesus
1. Philippians 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in
heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue
should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
XXV. For Whom was the way prepared by John the Baptist?
A. God
1. Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me:
and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of
the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2. Isaiah 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the
LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
3. Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger
before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
XXVI. Who rewards every man according to their works?
A. God
1. Psalms 62:11-12 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power
belongeth unto God. 12 Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to
every man according to his work.
2. Isaiah 40:10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule
for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.
3. Psalms 54:4-5 Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul. 5
He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.
4. Psalms 94:1-2 O LORD God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom
vengeance belongeth, show thyself. 2 Lift up thyself, thou judge of the earth: render a
reward to the proud.
5. Isaiah 62:11 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to
the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and
his work before him.
B. Jesus
1. Revelation 22:12-13 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give
every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and
the end, the first and the last.
2. Matthew 16:27-28 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his
angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto
you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of man coming in his kingdom.
XXVII. Who is the Light?
A. God
1. Psalms 18:28 For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my
darkness.
2. Psalms 27:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I
fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
3. Psalms 36:7-9 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of
men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings. 8 They shall be abundantly satisfied
with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy
pleasures. 9 For with thee is the fountain of life: in thy light shall we see light.
4. Isaiah 2:5 O house of Jacob, come ye, and let us walk in the light of the LORD.
5. Isaiah 60:19-20 The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall
the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and
thy God thy glory. 20 Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw
itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be
ended.
6. Micah 7:8-9 Rejoice not against me, O mine enemy: when I fall, I shall arise; when I
sit in darkness, the LORD shall be a light unto me. 9 I will bear the indignation of the
LORD, because I have sinned against him, until he plead my cause, and execute
judgment for me: he will bring me forth to the light, and I shall behold his righteousness.
B. Jesus
1. John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and
without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was
the light of men.
2. John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he
that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
3. John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
XXIII. Go tell them what great things God has done.
A. Luke 8:38-39 Now the man out of whom the devils were departed besought him that
he might be with him: but Jesus sent him away, saying, 39 Return to thine own house,
and show how great things God hath done unto thee. And he went his way, and
published throughout the whole city how great things Jesus had done unto him.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
Acts 8:
27: And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28: Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29: Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30: And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31: And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32: The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34: And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35: Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Isaiah 53:
1: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2: For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3: He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4: Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5: But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7: He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8: He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9: And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10: Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11: He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12: Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
How fortunate that there was no BrotherBrown around to deny the validity of God's Word.
Acts 17:
1: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
10: And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
It was NOT the New Testament scriptures out of which Paul reasoned, and to which the noble Bereans turned.
2 Tim. 3:
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
BEWARE of teachers such as BrotherBrown, who deny that God was incarnated and manifest in the flesh, and wrest scriptures to their own deception and destruction.
. Who created the heavens and the earth?
A. God
1. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Psalms 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His
handiwork.
3. Psalms 33:6 By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of
them by the breath of His mouth.
B. Jesus
1. John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word
was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and
without Him nothing was made that was made.
2. Colossians 1:13-17 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us
into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His
blood, the forgiveness of sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over
all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on
earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All
things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him
all things consist.
3. Hebrews 1:3-10 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His
person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself
purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so
much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name
than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, Today I have
begotten You"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son"? 6 But
when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God
worship Him." 7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits And His
ministers a flame of fire." 8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and
ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. 9 You have loved
righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With
the oil of gladness more than Your companions." 10 And: "You, LORD, in the beginning
laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
II. Who is God?
A. God
1. Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
2. John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and
Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
3. 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man
Christ Jesus,
4. Isaiah 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have
chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me
there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
5. Jude 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and
power, Both now and forever. Amen.
B. Jesus
1. 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an
understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His
Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
2. Hebrews 1:8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A
scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
3. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty
God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
III. Who is the Lord of lords?
A. God
1. Deuteronomy 10:17 "For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great
God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.
2. Psalms 136:1-4 O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth
for ever. 2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. 3 O give
thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever. 4 To him who alone doeth
great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
B. Jesus
1. Revelation 17:14 "These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome
them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called,
chosen, and faithful."
IV. Who is the Savior?
A. God
1. Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
2. 1 Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
3. Jude 1:25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and
power, Both now and forever. Amen.
B. Jesus
1. Titus 2:13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and
Savior Jesus Christ,
2. 2 Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting
kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
3. 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior
of the world.
V. Who is I AM?
A. God
1. Exodus 3:14 And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall
say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
B. Jesus
1. John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I
AM."
VI. Who is the Holy One?
A. God
1. Isaiah 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: "I am the
LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
2. Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
3. Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
4. Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and
such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that
smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
5. Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect
to the Holy One of Israel.
6. Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among
men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.
B. Jesus
1. Mark 1:24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of
Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
2. Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine
Holy One to see corruption.
3. Acts 3:14-15 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to
be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of
which we are witnesses.
--------------------
A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by crosshearted:
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
I'm sorry but I dont see your logic. First because the old testament is obsolete. And has had a veil over it until this day today.
First I say that the Old Testament is not obsolete because it remains today the oracles of God and that this scripture shows that the scriptures are not obsolete
quote:
2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Needless to say that the scriptures that were available when Paul wrote this were mainly the Old Testament scriptures. But besides that Jesus spoke of the scriptures that were read in the synagogue, and these scriptures were the Old Testament, testified of Him
quote:
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
That is the testimony that I offered you. That testimony is that the Messiah of God was God in the flesh and that the Messiah was Jesus. That fact establishes the truine nature of God.
THE GOD AND FATHER OF JESUS CHRIST
Rom 15:5-6
5 Now may the God of patience and comfort grant you to be like-minded toward one another, according to Christ Jesus,
6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 1:2-3
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,
2 Cor 11:31
31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.
Gal 1:3-5
3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Phil 4:19-20
19 And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.
20 Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Col 1:3-5
3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the saints;
5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
Rev 3:12-13
12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
13 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."'
(NKJ)
XXXX The God and Father of Jesus Christ. Jesus tells us that He and we have the very same God and Father. And that the Father is the only true God.
Phil 2:11
11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(NKJ)
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
There may be more, but just off the top of my head, Genesis 1:26 & 27 are the only Old Testament verses I recall you using on these boards; and those in an attempt to say that "God changed His mind".
now you say quote:
I'm sorry but I dont see your logic. First because the old testament is obsolete. And has had a veil over it until this day today.
you gave scripture to back your opinion on the veil, which I agree is a problem, except it be taken away in Christ.
But to call the Old Testament obsolete?
Do you totally dismiss the OT?
I really don't like for it to seem like I'm singling you out,
I'm usually on the outside of mainline denominationalism and doctrine and see things some different from most.
Being outside the mainstream, and seeing you outside the mainstream,
it just seems we would have more points of doctrine in common;
but so far I've seen few we agree on.
T7
ABOUT THE OLD TESTAMENT
FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT
Heb 8:13
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
Gal 2:21
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
1 Cor 10:1-12
1 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,
2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,
3 all ate the same spiritual food,
4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
6 Now these things became our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted.
7 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play."
8 Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell;
9 nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents;
10 nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Rom 13:8
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
John 4:23-24
23 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.
24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
John 3:34
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
John 3:33
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
John 3:35-36
35 "The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.
36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
Rom 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3-8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Gal 2:19-21
19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.
20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
Gal 3:24-25
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 5:1-5
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal 4:21
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
Rom 7:4-6
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another-- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Rom 13:10
10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
1 Pet 2:19-21
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20 For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
II Jn 1:9-11
9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.
10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him;
11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
John 1:17
17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
(NKJ)
xxx Jesus wants everyone who is going to be a christian to understand that the new covenant(testament) is just that new. That you cant go back and keep any part of the old testament that Jesus hasnt brought over to the new testament. Jesus new what to bring over man doesnt. But the old testament has to be obsolete to you in order for you to get the fullness of the new testament. 11John 1-9 is very specific if you dont abide(live) in the new testament you dont have the real God. There IS a veil over the old testament that remains to THIS day.
If Jesus were in the old testament this verse could only be meant for God and the angels.
John 10:8-9
8 "All who ever came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9 "I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
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crosshearted
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posted
Brotherbrown wrote
quote:
I'm sorry but I dont see your logic. First because the old testament is obsolete. And has had a veil over it until this day today.
First I say that the Old Testament is not obsolete because it remains today the oracles of God and that this scripture shows that the scriptures are not obsolete
quote:
2Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Needless to say that the scriptures that were available when Paul wrote this were mainly the Old Testament scriptures. But besides that Jesus spoke of the scriptures that were read in the synagogue, and these scriptures were the Old Testament, testified of Him
quote:
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
That is the testimony that I offered you. That testimony is that the Messiah of God was God in the flesh and that the Messiah was Jesus. That fact establishes the truine nature of God.
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1 Corinthians 2:2
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Thunderz7
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There may be more, but just off the top of my head, Genesis 1:26 & 27 are the only Old Testament verses I recall you using on these boards; and those in an attempt to say that "God changed His mind".
now you say quote:
I'm sorry but I dont see your logic. First because the old testament is obsolete. And has had a veil over it until this day today.
you gave scripture to back your opinion on the veil, which I agree is a problem, except it be taken away in Christ.
But to call the Old Testament obsolete?
Do you totally dismiss the OT?
I really don't like for it to seem like I'm singling you out,
I'm usually on the outside of mainline denominationalism and doctrine and see things some different from most.
Being outside the mainstream, and seeing you outside the mainstream,
it just seems we would have more points of doctrine in common;
but so far I've seen few we agree on.
T7
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Brotherbrown
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I'm sorry but I dont see your logic. First because the old testament is obsolete. And has had a veil over it until this day today.
2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ.
15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.
(NKJ)
And I have seen people try to slip Heb 1 through before without reading it in context.
The context starts in verse 6 "when He again brings Jesus into the world" God hasnt done that yet. That will only happen at the second coming.
Heb 1:6-8
6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."
7 And of the angels He says: "Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire."
8 But to the Son He says: "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom.
(NKJ)
Now if I am going to believe anyone it will be Jesus and He said the Father IS the only true God.
John 17:1-3
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,
2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(NKJ)
Paul even said there is one God the Father.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
(NKJ)
Jesus even said that we have the very same God and the very same Father that He does.
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
(NKJ)
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crosshearted
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The Trinity
One of the most talked about doctrines of the Christian world is the doctrine of the Trinity. Here I will approach the Trinity by starting with the Old Testament and working through the New testament showing the triune nature of God. It is also by the doctrine of the Trinity that the divinity and deity of Jesus is established.
There are several words from Hebrew that establish the idea that God is plural in nature which gives rise to the fact that God could be triune (a trinity) in nature. The very word triune means tri-unity and that is what these words will establish.
ELOHIYM
We start with the word from Hebrew that is translated to mean God the creator and the God of Israel which is the word Elohiym. This word Elohiym is actually the plural word for God which says that God is more than just a one and only singular being. This is shown also in the fact of what God says during creation.
In Genesis 1:26 God speaks to another being that is present during the creation. This means that God was not alone when He created the world. Now some say that the being that God was speaking to was an angel. But the problem with this is that angels were also created beings and did not have the power to create themselves. The scripture clearly says that the other being that was there had the power to create.
quote:
Genesis 1:26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth
You can see that God invited the other being to help create man. Also take notice of the fact that God said of the other being that He had the same image to God was. Angels were not created in the image of God but were in several different images (cherubims, seraphims, and other ranks and orders. This seems to be God speaking to the other part of the plurality of His nature. Then again in Genesis 3:22 God again speaks to another being present in the time God was going to banish Adam from the garden.
quote:
Genesis 2:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Again you see God referring to the other being present as to being like God.
Now let us go on with the word Elohiym. The word Elohiym is translated to mean the God of creation or God of Israel over 2200 times in the Old Testament. Now Elohiym was not the only word translated to mean God in the Old testament. One word is El (which was used 214 times) which means God the mighty one. This is a description of God having power. Then we have the word Yehovah which was the covenant name for the God of Israel and it was used 304 times. This is just the name that the Israelites used to name their God. Then we come to the word Elowahh (used 52 times) which means God the Divine which is a description of the deity that God is. There are a couple of other words translated God that were used only a couple of times and they also were just descriptive meanings of some particular aspect of Gods character.
Notice that Elohiym is the word used most often in translation that means the God of creation and of Israel. This word denotes plurality in almost 99%of the times it is translated. This is shown by the translating of {b]elohiym[/b] as the word gods. The word gods is in the plural form also and shows that the wordElohiym is consistently translated as plural in nature.
Now there are some places that the word Elohiym is translated as god but even in these times of translation there is an implied direct or indirect plurality.
quote:
Judges 6:31And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death whilst it is yet morning: if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because one hath cast down his altar.
This would seem to be speaking of a one but lets us look at this scripture to see how the mind of the writer would approach the idea of Baal
quote:
1 Kings 11:33 Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom (Molech) the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.
So when the writers of the Old Testament wrote about another they were always brought back to the admonitions of God which reminded them that the other god was but just one of many gods that were being worshipped thus the implication of the plurality.
Now in the over 2200 times the word Elohiym is translated as the God of creation and God of Israel it is used in combination with the word Yehovah. Now Yehovah is translated God 305 times and is transalted Lord. So we have the verses that continually say “the Lord (our, your, my and thy ) God “ is actually saying the Lord (or God Yehovah) is God ([b]Elohiym the plural meaning of God). Literally it is saying Lord or God Yehovah is His name and . God (Elohiym) is His nature of being. But the nature of the plural God is not just from this word alone so let us look at the next word.
ECHAD
Now we deal with the word echad which is translated as the word one and Echad is also an adj and an adj describes the subject being talked about. But this is not a complete description of the meaning of this word because in the Hebrew [b]echad had the meaning of one but in the sense of compound unity which is one which is shown in these scriptures.
quote:
Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
Here we have the plural man and woman that become one (echad) flesh.
Genesis 34:16 Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people
Again we see that the plurality is there in the fact of two different peoples becoming one (echad.
Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Again the pluraity is there in the fact of the two nations becoming one (echad) again. The second time the word one (echad is used in that scripture it is used for the King that would rule the one nation and if Jesus is part of the plurality (Elohiym then that word meaning one there would be echad[b] (a compoud unity of one).
The word [b]echad is translated as one some 687 times so what we need to do is determine if this translation as compound unity of one is the meaning in these other times of translation. 641 times [b]echad is used as a compound unity of one in some manner. And 46 times times as just the description of a number but even that could be seen as an echad
quote:
Exodus 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
The implication here is that it is eight days from the 14th day to the 21st day. So the eight days indicate the compound unity of one. The one and twentieth day was the eight day sincethey stared eating unleavened bread.
The word is used many times when it comes to describing God as one God. This is saying in essence that God is a compound unity of one. Now I have tied to look up all l the scripture that was translated from echad ( though I might have missed one or two) but the predominate use of echad is in the meaning compound unity of one. Now we can come to some conclusion here in all the scriptures translating the word echad from Genesis to the end of the Old Testament predominately had the meaning for echad being a compound unity of one. Now here we can look and see that in all these books that were inspired by God in the Old Testament that either God is a poor linguist or that He used the word and meaning He intended to be taken.
YACHIYD
The meaning for the word yachiyd is only, only one, solitary, one (as in singular in form and being).This shown in these scriptures
quote:
Judges 11:34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
I used this word as a matter of contrast to define the meaning of a scripture in Deuteronomy 6:4
quote:
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Now let us break down the meaning by using the words and meaning of those words from the Hebrew/
Hear o Israel The Lord (Yehovah Gods covenant name used as either Lord or God) is one ( echad meaning compound in unity of one), God (Elohiym which means plural in existenace). The thing to be noticed is that the word yachiyd was not used which would have been the meaning if God was just one and singular in His being and His nature.
[/quote]
PART TWO
In the first part we looked at the words Elohiym, Echad, and Yachiyd and their meanings which show that God was plural in nature and compound in unity of one and was not a one and only singular being.
Some times it is hard to comprehend the full nature of the idea of the trinity but that is what God has shown himself to be. Now in this part I will deal with some prophecies and statements by the prophets that continues to point to the fact of a triuneness of God. The nature of the Messiah is very important to the establishing God as truine (the trinity).
In Psalms 45:6 there is this scripture
quote:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Here the Psalmist identifies God and His throne as being forever or eternal in nature. The Psalmist also says that the sceptre (staff) His kingdom is a right sceptre(staff).
But this very same scriptures is used in Hebrews 1:8
quote:
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Yet here the writer of Hebrews says that God was speaking to the Messiah and was calling Him God. Now we have to ask ourselves if the writer was inspired from God and if he was then this writer is saying that the Messiah is God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Next we have this from Isaiah 40:3
quote:
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
In this Isaiah uses the word Jehovah and it is translated Lord and shows the way was being prepared for Him (Jehovah). The in the last part of this scripture Isaiah uses the word Elohiym (God) that the way was being made straight for.
Now when John the Baptist came He said of Himself
quote:
For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Then in Mark 1:1-3 we see who John was speaking of when He said that He was preparing the way for Him
quote:
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
We can see that the writer of Hebrews and John the Baptist (who was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb) clearly understood that the prophecies were speaking of the Messiah being God. This again establishes the idea of the triune nature of God and that the Messiah was God.
In this light lets us look at some more from Isaiah. In Isaiah 7;14 it speaks of the name that the Messiah would be known by.
quote:
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
The name there of Immanuel means God with us or in the more literal meaning with us is God inferring that the Son that would be born was God with us. You can also look at the name of Yahshua and see that even in this it was speaking again of the nature of the Messiah. Yahshua literally means God is salvation. We can see that the inference here is to the idea that Yahshua is the God of our salvation.
But lets look at other scripture from Isaiah 9:6
quote:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
In this Isaiah shows that the sign God gave us would be called by these names. The idea put forth here is to describe just exactly who the Messiah would be. So by using the titles known to be those of Yehovah Isaiah was establishing that the Messiah would be Yehovah come in the flesh.
Now in Micah 5:2 it speaks of the everlasting (eternal) nature of the Messiah
quote:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
We can see that Isaiah and the Psalmist and Micah speaking from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit recognized the idea that the Messiah would be God come in the flesh which establishes the fact that God could have a triune nature and that the Messiah would be God in the flesh.
PART THREE
In doing these studies of the Old Testament there is one point you can not avoid and that is tying them into the New Testament writings. In this these coming post we will look a several places in the New testament that shows the deity of Jesus Christ and will confirm that the triunity/trinity (the Father, the Son , and the Holy Spirit) is the nature of God.
1
The first scripture I would like to cover is Colossians 2:9
quote:
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Now lets look at the meaning of this verse and see how Paul actually viewed the nature of Jesus. In the first part of this scripture it says that in Jesus was dwelling (katoikeo {kat-oy-keh'-o}---to dwell in, inhabit) the fulness (pleroma {play'-ro-mah}---completeness or fulness ) of the Godhead (theotes {theh-ot'-ace}--- deity, the state of being God) bodily (somatikos {so-mat-ee-koce'}--- bodily, corporally. In this we see that Paul is just carring the scripture meaning that Isaiah put forth when He said the Messiah would be called Immanuel or with us is God/ God with us. Or when Isaiah said that the Messiah would be called wonderful, Counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of peace.
Paul clearly recognized the divinity/deity that was Jesus Christ the Messiah. Then we can also see from 1 John 1:1-2 the same theme coming from John
quote:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
Here John says not only did they bear witness but that they heard, saw, and handled physically the Word of Life. John had written in the Gospel in referring to the coming of Jesus into this world as being the Word manifest in the flesh.
quote:
John 1:14-And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth John] (the Baptist) bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
In this John quotes John the Baptist from the time that John identified Jesus as the Messiah showing that the manifested Word was Jesus the Messiah.
Now lets look at John 1:32-34 and see what it says to us.
quote:
And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Here we have John the Baptist testifying that God told him that who the Spirit descends on is the one John was sent to prepare the way for which relates back to the scripture from Isaiah 40:3 which said who John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for
quote:
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD(Yehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Elohiym).
This from Matthew 3:16-17 continues this same point
quote:
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Here we have God identifying Jesus as the only begotten Son and we have , the Holy Spirit and the Father all existing in the same moment as three distinct identities. This is the plurality and compound unity of one God being the three. God is not three Gods but is one God expressed as three separate but indivisable identities at the same time.
PART 4
There have been many that have said that Jesus never said or claimed to be God and this proves that Jesus was but a mere man. This claim is made to disprove the triunity/trinity nature of God. One of the most important parts of the triunity/trinity nature of God is the fact that Jesus was divine in nature. Here in John 10:30-33 the Jews clearly knew that Jesus was claiming to be God.
quote:
I and my Father are one Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone m The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
These Jews who were there listening to the direct words spoken by Jesus clearly perceived that Jesus was claiming divinty. Lets us look at the statements of others who wrote about Jesus being divine in nature therefore establishing the triunity.
In the book of Jude we have a very clear statement as to who the Jesus Christ
quote:
Jude 4-5 For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.(Nasb)
Here in this scripture we see that Jude is claiming that there is but only one Lord and Master we have and that It was Jesus Christ. Yet in the scriptures it says that only God is the Lord. So is Jude saying that we now have another one and only Lord other than God.
With Jesus being our only Master and Lord then the reference made by Jude in the next verse will identify who our Lord is.
quote:
Jude 5 Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
Now in reading the Old Testament accounts of who saved Israel from Egypt you will see that it is Jehovah that says He is the one who saved Israel from Egypt.
quote:
Exodus 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD translated from the word Jehovah ) brought thee out of Egypt.
Now we can see that Jude who was a Jew and familiar with the Old Testament scriptures is clearly identifying Jesus as the one who saved Israel from Egypt. This would be contradictory if Jesus was not God. So we can see that Jude was clearly identifying Jesus as Jehovah.
In the book of Revelation there are three references to the Alpha and Omega
quote:
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Here Jesus is clearly identified as the Alpha and Omega and it also says the He is the Almighty. In the book of Revelation it speaks of the Almighty 8 times and in seven of those times it identifies God as the Almighty. (Revelations 4:8, 11:7, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:15, 21:22)
quote:
Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying , Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
This same statement in bold is made of Jesus Christ when He says that He is the Alpha and Omega. Here it is the 4 beasts that are saying that it is God who is and was and is to come. Now we have two Alphas and Omegas who are and were and are to come or we are speaking of one and the same being. Also this is Jesus saying that He was the Almighty. This points to the fact that there are two Almighty’s or that Jesus is God Almighty.
Now we look at another scripture from Isaiah 44:6
quote:
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Here Jesus also uses these very same terms in describing Himself
quote:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Here again we have the duplicity of statements made about God and Jesus Christ. One from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament. In Isaiah it clearly shows that Elohiym (plural word for God) is the first and the last but in Revelations we have Jesus saying that He is the first and the last is showing that are either two first and lasts or there is but one (echad—compound unity of one) God .
In John 10:28 we have Thomas making a statement that would have put him in danger of blasphemy according to the Jews but Thomas truly recognized Jesus as who Jesus was
quote:
Thomas said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!”
Now this scripture from Psalm 45:6
quote:
Thy throne, O God (Elohiym), is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Then here in Hebrews 1:8 we have the same scripture being quoted and the writer of Hebrews showing who was speaking in the verse and who was being spoken to
quote:
But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
In Hebrews chapter 8:1-7 it establishes that it is God who is speaking and in Hebrews 1:6 who is being spoken to
quote:
Hebrews 1:1-7 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.[/color]
Hebrews 1:6[color=blue] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
So in looking at verse 8 we have God calling the Son Jesus God
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1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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crosshearted
Advanced Member
Member # 4454
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The Trinity
One of the most talked about doctrines of the Christian world is the doctrine of the Trinity. Here I will approach the Trinity by starting with the Old Testament and working through the New testament showing the triune nature of God. It is also by the doctrine of the Trinity that the divinity and deity of Jesus is established.
There are several words from Hebrew that establish the idea that God is plural in nature which gives rise to the fact that God could be triune (a trinity) in nature. The very word triune means tri-unity and that is what these words will establish.
ELOHIYM
We start with the word from Hebrew that is translated to mean God the creator and the God of Israel which is the word Elohiym. This word Elohiym is actually the plural word for God which says that God is more than just a one and only singular being. This is shown also in the fact of what God says during creation.
In Genesis 1:26 God speaks to another being that is present during the creation. This means that God was not alone when He created the world. Now some say that the being that God was speaking to was an angel. But the problem with this is that angels were also created beings and did not have the power to create themselves. The scripture clearly says that the other being that was there had the power to create.
quote:
Genesis 1:26[color=blue] And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth[/color]
You can see that God invited the other being to help create man. Also take notice of the fact that God said of the other being that He had the same image to God was. Angels were not created in the image of God but were in several different images (cherubims, seraphims, and other ranks and orders. This seems to be God speaking to the other part of the plurality of His nature. Then again in Genesis 3:22 God again speaks to another being present in the time God was going to banish Adam from the garden.
quote:
Genesis 2:22[color=blue] And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: [/color]
Again you see God referring to the other being present as to being like God.
Now let us go on with the word Elohiym. The word Elohiym is translated to mean the God of creation or God of Israel over 2200 times in the Old Testament. Now Elohiym was not the only word translated to mean God in the Old testament. One word is El (which was used 214 times) which means God the mighty one. This is a description of God having power. Then we have the word Yehovah which was the covenant name for the God of Israel and it was used 304 times. This is just the name that the Israelites used to name their God. Then we come to the word Elowahh (used 52 times) which means God the Divine which is a description of the deity that God is. There are a couple of other words translated God that were used only a couple of times and they also were just descriptive meanings of some particular aspect of Gods character.
Notice that Elohiym is the word used most often in translation that means the God of creation and of Israel. This word denotes plurality in almost 99%of the times it is translated. This is shown by the translating of {b]elohiym[/b] as the word gods. The word gods is in the plural form also and shows that the wordElohiym is consistently translated as plural in nature.
Now there are some places that the word Elohiym is translated as god but even in these times of translation there is an implied direct or indirect plurality.
quote:
Judges 6:31[color=blue] And Joash said unto all that stood against him, Will ye plead for Baal? will ye save him? he that will plead for him, let him be put to death whilst it is yet morning: if he be a god, let him plead for himself, because [one] hath cast down his altar.[/color]
This would seem to be speaking of a one but lets us look at this scripture to see how the mind of the writer would approach the idea of Baal
quote:
1 Kings 11:33[color=blue] Because that they have forsaken me, and have worshipped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Milcom[/color] (Molech)[color=blue] the god of the children of Ammon, and have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in mine eyes, and to keep my statutes and my judgments, as did David his father.[/color]
So when the writers of the Old Testament wrote about another they were always brought back to the admonitions of God which reminded them that the other god was but just one of many gods that were being worshipped thus the implication of the plurality.
Now in the over 2200 times the word Elohiym is translated as the God of creation and God of Israel it is used in combination with the word Yehovah. Now Yehovah is translated God 305 times and is transalted Lord. So we have the verses that continually say “the Lord (our, your, my and thy ) God “ is actually saying the Lord (or God Yehovah) is God ([b]Elohiym the plural meaning of God). Literally it is saying Lord or God Yehovah is His name and . God (Elohiym) is His nature of being. But the nature of the plural God is not just from this word alone so let us look at the next word.
ECHAD
Now we deal with the word echad which is translated as the word one and Echad is also an adj and an adj describes the subject being talked about. But this is not a complete description of the meaning of this word because in the Hebrew [b]echad had the meaning of one but in the sense of compound unity which is one which is shown in these scriptures.
quote:
Genesis 2:24[color=blue] Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.[[/color]
Here we have the plural man and woman that become one (echad) flesh.
Genesis 34:16[color=blue] Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we will dwell with you, and we will become one people[/color]
Again we see that the plurality is there in the fact of two different peoples becoming one (echad.
Ezekiel 37:22[color-blue] And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:[/color]
Again the pluraity is there in the fact of the two nations becoming one (echad) again. The second time the word one (echad is used in that scripture it is used for the King that would rule the one nation and if Jesus is part of the plurality (Elohiym then that word meaning one there would be echad[b] (a compoud unity of one).
The word [b]echad is translated as one some 687 times so what we need to do is determine if this translation as compound unity of one is the meaning in these other times of translation. 641 times [b]echad is used as a compound unity of one in some manner. And 46 times times as just the description of a number but even that could be seen as an echad
quote:
Exodus 12:18[color=blue] In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.[/color]
The implication here is that it is eight days from the 14th day to the 21st day. So the eight days indicate the compound unity of one. The one and twentieth day was the eight day sincethey stared eating unleavened bread.
The word is used many times when it comes to describing God as one God. This is saying in essence that God is a compound unity of one. Now I have tied to look up all l the scripture that was translated from echad ( though I might have missed one or two) but the predominate use of echad is in the meaning compound unity of one. Now we can come to some conclusion here in all the scriptures translating the word echad from Genesis to the end of the Old Testament predominately had the meaning for echad being a compound unity of one. Now here we can look and see that in all these books that were inspired by God in the Old Testament that either God is a poor linguist or that He used the word and meaning He intended to be taken.
YACHIYD
The meaning for the word yachiyd is only, only one, solitary, one (as in singular in form and being).This shown in these scriptures
quote:
Judges 11:34[color=blue] And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. [/color]
I used this word as a matter of contrast to define the meaning of a scripture in Deuteronomy 6:4
quote:
[color=blue] Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:[/color]
Now let us break down the meaning by using the words and meaning of those words from the Hebrew/
Hear o Israel The Lord (Yehovah Gods covenant name used as either Lord or God) is one ( echad meaning compound in unity of one), God (Elohiym which means plural in existenace). The thing to be noticed is that the word yachiyd was not used which would have been the meaning if God was just one and singular in His being and His nature.
[/quote]
PART TWO
In the first part we looked at the words Elohiym, Echad, and Yachiyd and their meanings which show that God was plural in nature and compound in unity of one and was not a one and only singular being.
Some times it is hard to comprehend the full nature of the idea of the trinity but that is what God has shown himself to be. Now in this part I will deal with some prophecies and statements by the prophets that continues to point to the fact of a triuneness of God. The nature of the Messiah is very important to the establishing God as truine (the trinity).
In Psalms 45:6 there is this scripture
quote:
[color=blue] Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.[/color]
Here the Psalmist identifies God and His throne as being forever or eternal in nature. The Psalmist also says that the sceptre (staff) His kingdom is a right sceptre(staff).
But this very same scriptures is used in Hebrews 1:8
quote:
[color=blue]But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. [/color]
Yet here the writer of Hebrews says that God was speaking to the Messiah and was calling Him God. Now we have to ask ourselves if the writer was inspired from God and if he was then this writer is saying that the Messiah is God under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Next we have this from Isaiah 40:3
quote:
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.[/color]
In this Isaiah uses the word Jehovah and it is translated Lord and shows the way was being prepared for Him (Jehovah). The in the last part of this scripture Isaiah uses the word Elohiym (God) that the way was being made straight for.
Now when John the Baptist came He said of Himself
quote:
[color=blue] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.[/color]
Then in Mark 1:1-3 we see who John was speaking of when He said that He was preparing the way for Him
quote:
[color=blue] The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. [/color]
We can see that the writer of Hebrews and John the Baptist (who was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mothers womb) clearly understood that the prophecies were speaking of the Messiah being God. This again establishes the idea of the triune nature of God and that the Messiah was God.
In this light lets us look at some more from Isaiah. In Isaiah 7;14 it speaks of the name that the Messiah would be known by.
quote:
[color=blue]Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.[/color]
The name there of Immanuel means God with us or in the more literal meaning with us is God inferring that the Son that would be born was God with us. You can also look at the name of Yahshua and see that even in this it was speaking again of the nature of the Messiah. Yahshua literally means God is salvation. We can see that the inference here is to the idea that Yahshua is the God of our salvation.
But lets look at other scripture from Isaiah 9:6
quote:
[color=blue] For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.[/color]
In this Isaiah shows that the sign God gave us would be called by these names. The idea put forth here is to describe just exactly who the Messiah would be. So by using the titles known to be those of Yehovah Isaiah was establishing that the Messiah would be Yehovah come in the flesh.
Now in Micah 5:2 it speaks of the everlasting (eternal) nature of the Messiah
quote:
[color=blue] But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.[/color]
We can see that Isaiah and the Psalmist and Micah speaking from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit recognized the idea that the Messiah would be God come in the flesh which establishes the fact that God could have a triune nature and that the Messiah would be God in the flesh.
PART THREE
In doing these studies of the Old Testament there is one point you can not avoid and that is tying them into the New Testament writings. In this these coming post we will look a several places in the New testament that shows the deity of Jesus Christ and will confirm that the triunity/trinity (the Father, the Son , and the Holy Spirit) is the nature of God.
1
The first scripture I would like to cover is Colossians 2:9
quote:
[color=blue] For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.[/color]
Now lets look at the meaning of this verse and see how Paul actually viewed the nature of Jesus. In the first part of this scripture it says that in Jesus was dwelling (katoikeo {kat-oy-keh'-o}---to dwell in, inhabit) the fulness (pleroma {play'-ro-mah}---completeness or fulness ) of the Godhead (theotes {theh-ot'-ace}--- deity, the state of being God) bodily (somatikos {so-mat-ee-koce'}--- bodily, corporally. In this we see that Paul is just carring the scripture meaning that Isaiah put forth when He said the Messiah would be called Immanuel or with us is God/ God with us. Or when Isaiah said that the Messiah would be called wonderful, Counselor, mighty God, everlasting Father, Prince of peace.
Paul clearly recognized the divinity/deity that was Jesus Christ the Messiah. Then we can also see from 1 John 1:1-2 the same theme coming from John
quote:
[color=blue] That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)[/color]
Here John says not only did they bear witness but that they heard, saw, and handled physically the Word of Life. John had written in the Gospel in referring to the coming of Jesus into this world as being the Word manifest in the flesh.
quote:
John 1:14-[color=blue] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth John[/color] (the Baptist)[color=blue] bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. [/color]
In this John quotes John the Baptist from the time that John identified Jesus as the Messiah showing that the manifested Word was Jesus the Messiah.
Now lets look at John 1:32-34 and see what it says to us.
quote:
[color=blue] And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.[/color]
Here we have John the Baptist testifying that God told him that who the Spirit descends on is the one John was sent to prepare the way for which relates back to the scripture from Isaiah 40:3 which said who John the Baptist was sent to prepare the way for
quote:
[color=blue] The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD[/color] (Yehovah),[color=blue] make straight in the desert a highway for our God[/color] (Elohiym).
This from Matthew 3:16-17 continues this same point
quote:
[color=blue] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. [/color]
Here we have God identifying Jesus as the only begotten Son and we have , the Holy Spirit and the Father all existing in the same moment as three distinct identities. This is the plurality and compound unity of one God being the three. God is not three Gods but is one God expressed as three separate but indivisable identities at the same time.
PART 4
There have been many that have said that Jesus never said or claimed to be God and this proves that Jesus was but a mere man. This claim is made to disprove the triunity/trinity nature of God. One of the most important parts of the triunity/trinity nature of God is the fact that Jesus was divine in nature. Here in John 10:30-33 the Jews clearly knew that Jesus was claiming to be God.
quote:
[color=red] I and my Father are one Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone m The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. [/color]
These Jews who were there listening to the direct words spoken by Jesus clearly perceived that Jesus was claiming divinty. Lets us look at the statements of others who wrote about Jesus being divine in nature therefore establishing the triunity.
In the book of Jude we have a very clear statement as to who the Jesus Christ
quote:
Jude 4-5[color=blue] For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.[/color](Nasb)
Here in this scripture we see that Jude is claiming that there is but only one Lord and Master we have and that It was Jesus Christ. Yet in the scriptures it says that only God is the Lord. So is Jude saying that we now have another one and only Lord other than God.
With Jesus being our only Master and Lord then the reference made by Jude in the next verse will identify who our Lord is.
quote:
Jude 5[color=blue] . Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.[/color]
Now in reading the Old Testament accounts of who saved Israel from Egypt you will see that it is Jehovah that says He is the one who saved Israel from Egypt.
quote:
Exodus 13:9[color=blue] And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD'S law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD[/color] (translated from the word Jehovah ) [color=blue] brought thee out of Egypt.[/color]
Now we can see that Jude who was a Jew and familiar with the Old Testament scriptures is clearly identifying Jesus as the one who saved Israel from Egypt. This would be contradictory if Jesus was not God. So we can see that Jude was clearly identifying Jesus as Jehovah.
In the book of Revelation there are three references to the Alpha and Omega
quote:
Revelation 1:8[color=red] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.[/color]
Here Jesus is clearly identified as the Alpha and Omega and it also says the He is the Almighty. In the book of Revelation it speaks of the Almighty 8 times and in seven of those times it identifies God as the Almighty. (Revelations 4:8, 11:7, 15:3, 16:7, 16:14, 19:15, 21:22)
quote:
Revelation 4:8[color=blue] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying , Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.[/color]
This same statement in bold is made of Jesus Christ when He says that He is the Alpha and Omega. Here it is the 4 beasts that are saying that it is God who is and was and is to come. Now we have two Alphas and Omegas who are and were and are to come or we are speaking of one and the same being. Also this is Jesus saying that He was the Almighty. This points to the fact that there are two Almighty’s or that Jesus is God Almighty.
Now we look at another scripture from Isaiah 44:6
quote:
[color=blue] Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.[/color]
Here Jesus also uses these very same terms in describing Himself
quote:
[color=blue] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[/color]
Here again we have the duplicity of statements made about God and Jesus Christ. One from the Old Testament and one from the New Testament. In Isaiah it clearly shows that Elohiym (plural word for God) is the first and the last but in Revelations we have Jesus saying that He is the first and the last is showing that are either two first and lasts or there is but one (echad—compound unity of one) God .
In John 10:28 we have Thomas making a statement that would have put him in danger of blasphemy according to the Jews but Thomas truly recognized Jesus as who Jesus was
quote:
[color=blue] Thomas said to Him, ‘My Lord and my God!”[/color]
Now this scripture from Psalm 45:6
quote:
[color=blue] Thy throne, O God[/color] (Elohiym)[color=blue], is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.[/color]
Then here in Hebrews 1:8 we have the same scripture being quoted and the writer of Hebrews showing who was speaking in the verse and who was being spoken to
quote:
[color=blue] But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.[/color]
In Hebrews chapter 8:1-7 it establishes that it is God who is speaking and in Hebrews 1:6 who is being spoken to
quote:
Hebrews 1:1-7color=blue] God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.[/color]
Hebrews 1:6[color=blue] And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.[/color]
[/quote]
So in looking at verse 8 we have God calling the Son Jesus God
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1 Corinthians 2:2
Posts: 43 | From: WV | Registered: Mar 2005
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Brotherbrown
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quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Brown your topic is not Biblical.
In the begining it is clear to all the trinity.
*
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
*
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Fire is a trinity. Fuel + Temp + Air = Fire
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
This is very good atleast you all are discussing it. That would mean that your not hardhearted. Those who will not discuss it are hardhearted.
If you will read the next verse you will see that God didnt create man in the "our image' so He must have changed His mind between verse 26 and 27. He created man in His own image.
Gen 1:26-27
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
(NKJ)
That arguement doesnt hold any value.
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WildB
Moderator
Member # 2917
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posted
Brown your topic is not Biblical.
In the begining it is clear to all the trinity.
*
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters
*
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Fire is a trinity. Fuel + Temp + Air = Fire
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--------------------
That is all.....
Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderz7:
by Brotherbrown- quote:
di-vin-i-ty 1:the quality or state of being divine: nature or essence of God: GODHEAD (the divinity of Jesus) a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man<one of the subservient divinities>
This is the deffinition of deity and divinity, Jesus is separate from God.
I have to ask where this definition came from?
I just looked in 5 dictionaries at divine and divinity;
Webster's - New World Dictionary,
American Family Dictionary,
Lexicon Dictionary,
Home University Dictionary;
World Book Encyclopedia Dictionary;
nowhere in the 5 did I find anything about Jesus being inferior to God.
In fact the name Jesus was not mentioned in any of these 5 dictionaries in relation to divine or divinity.
Your position is reminding me of the Trinity position that =
The Father is the first person of the trinity,
The Son is the second person,
the Holy Spirit is the third.
To me that says Jesus is a second rate citizen and the Holy Spirit is third class;
I can't agree with that.
T7
It seems they came from here,
from websters new world dictionary copyright 1993
Thanks for your list of dictionaries. I will look them up. This is starting to look like we cant even trust dictionaries.
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Thunderz7
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Member # 31
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posted
by Brotherbrown- quote:
di-vin-i-ty 1:the quality or state of being divine: nature or essence of God: GODHEAD (the divinity of Jesus) a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man<one of the subservient divinities>
This is the deffinition of deity and divinity, Jesus is separate from God.
I have to ask where this definition came from?
I just looked in 5 dictionaries at divine and divinity;
Webster's - New World Dictionary,
American Family Dictionary,
Lexicon Dictionary,
Home University Dictionary;
World Book Encyclopedia Dictionary;
nowhere in the 5 did I find anything about Jesus being inferior to God.
In fact the name Jesus was not mentioned in any of these 5 dictionaries in relation to divine or divinity.
Your position is reminding me of the Trinity position that =
The Father is the first person of the trinity,
The Son is the second person,
the Holy Spirit is the third.
To me that says Jesus is a second rate citizen and the Holy Spirit is third class;
I can't agree with that.
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
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Now that site doesnt even make any sense. It doesnt even deal with any facts. Just someones opinion. The Word of God says not to add anything to the scriptures. And that is adding things to the scriptures.
It doesnt say anywhere in the Word of God, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, deity, divinity. For a matter of fact the trinity doesnt even use the right definition of the word deity. The definition of the word deity is that Jesus is subservient to God.
DEITY DO YOU KNOW WHAT IT MEANS?
their are so many that throw around that word deity, I havent met any that can truly define it. But they hold on to it. The definition of deity, is divinity, the definition of divinity is that Jesus is inferior to the supreme God but superior to man.
deity 1 a: often cap : divine nature or rank: the essintial nature of a god or of a supreme being: DIVINITY
di-vin-i-ty 1:the quality or state of being divine: nature or essence of God: GODHEAD (the divinity of Jesus) a celestial being inferior to the supreme God but superior to man<one of the subservient divinities>
This is the deffinition of deity and divinity, Jesus is separate from God.
Acts 17:24-29
24 "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
25 "Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
(NKJ)
Now Jesus had the Divine Nature of God, but He wasnt God.
We want that same divine nature, but that won't make us God either. We are suppose to be Christ like as Christians. Christ humbled Himself to God and we should do the same. To claim Jesus is God is to deny One of the two Spirits we submit to. And the only Way to the Father is threw the right Son.
Matt 10:33
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
(NKJ)
Nobody can know God, unless the real Jesus reveals Him. If you dont know Jesus you cant know God.
Matt 11:27-30
27 "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
30 "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."
(NKJ)
John 14:28
28 "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.
(NKJ)
Now I'm looking for scriptural evidence. And from what I've seen the trinity is making to many things up to support their deception.
I do want to thank you atleast your trying to help me understand. But according to the Word of God your deceived about who God is. Atleast your discussing it now. And that is what we need to be doing.
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Brotherbrown
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by WildB:
Your dividing of the Word is not right, nor is it truthful.
Your base is off read Things That Differ
it may help correct your error.
http://www.geocities.com/protestantscot/ttd/ttd_chap1.html#intr
Could you be alittle more specific?
Even the last part of that says that people who believe Jesus is God are not the children of God.
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Brotherbrown
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I figured this was the best place to discuss it.
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Brotherbrown
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Like I had said on that other post I got that from scatteredsheep.com. It made alot of sense to me so I shared it here. Now I see what your saying but I cant agree with you. Your useing acouple of verses to dispute all them verses on my thread, I dont think that will work.
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Thunderz7
Advanced Member
Member # 31
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posted
Brotherbrown,
You came here wondering about getting banned;
well I'm not a moderator or board owner;
but I bet your pushing it now.
You even call verses from the Bible circumstantial!
You say these verses can be use either way;
Your own statement makes the Trinitarian view, and the Oneness view, even my view, equal in truth to yours by the Bible.
I am neither Trinity nor Oneness, probably closer to Oneness,
I believe in One GOD who is triune,
the GOD who made triune man in HIS image.
Both Trinity and Oneness know that Yeshua is GOD and the Holy Spirit is GOD.
I won't try to defend either of their positions; but I will defend the truth of the WORD.
Matt.1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
xxx-v.18 says the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus.
Mat.1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
xxx-v.20 confirms v.18
Matt.1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
xxx- Who is with us? = GOD
Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
xxx- the Father is the Highest.
v.32 -Jesus the Son of the Highest = Son of the Father.
v.35-The Holy Sirit came upon Mary and the Highest overshadowed her;
reference this with Mt.1:18 &20
the Holy Spirit and the Father must be One
Holy Spirit = Father = GOD
John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God .
xxx- in the begining the WORD was GOD
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
xxx-Yeshua has never changed, HE was GOD, HE is GOD.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
xxx-Who is this child? = Jesus/Yeshua the Son, the WORD, the Lamb.
Who is the Counsellor? = The Holy Spirit who
teaches us all things and brings the WORD to our remberance.
This child has the government of GOD's kingdom on HIS shoulder and HIS Name is called The mighty God, The everlasting Father.
This child is the Counsellor,
this child is the GOD the mighty everlasting Father.
Jesus /Yeshua = the child born, the son given, the Word, the Son, the Lamb, the Counsellor, The everlasting Father, The mighty God.
The Father is the Father of the Son;
The Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son;
the Father and the Holy Spirit must be One.
The WORD was with GOD in the beginning;
the WORD was GOD in the beginning;
the WORD is the same yesterday, to day and for ever.
the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must be One.
John 8:16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
xxx-v.16 Jesus is not alone the Father is with Him.
John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him
xxx-Jesus is not alone the Father is with Him;
the Holy Spirit is abiding in Him.
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
xxx-Father, Son, Holy Spirit = One GOD who is triune.
So Brotherbrown, you say Trinitarians worship in the flesh because they think Jesus is GOD.
Your thinking must also apply to Oneness doctrine, because they too say Jesus is GOD.
I believe in One GOD who is triune, and your though also applies to me.
Though I have strong objection to some Trinitarian wording and theory;
and though I disagree with Oneness doctrine on several points;
I must say,
I much more strongly disagree with your theory;
I think it is you who are worshiping in the flesh, with man made doctrine, vain imagination, and no Spirit leadership.
May we both be led into the light of the truth
T7
Posts: 1113 | From: Northeast Alabama | Registered: Jun 2002
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Brotherbrown
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TRINITY EVIDENCE FALSE
Everything that the trinitarians claims makes Jesus God. Are the same things we can do also. And it doesnt make us God. Trinitarians have tried to form a belief on circumstantial verses, not factual verses. And they base their belief on principles that are not even in the Word of God. A Believer bases all their beliefs on what is written, not on what is not written.
Matt 20:22-23
22 But Jesus answered and said, "You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?" They said to Him, "We are able."
23 So He said to them, "You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father."
Circumstantial Verses
Circumstantial verses are verses that can be used either way. As in this one,(My Lord and my God) The word and can be used to separate Lord and God, it can also be used to bring them together as one. Now as John was addressing Jesus at this point John knew and believed that God was also in Jesus. So in his attempt to address them both he was addressing "My Lord Jesus Christ, and also my God the Father that dwells in You.
John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
(NKJ)
Factual Verses
In the factual verses, they can only be taken one way, with no variations. So the carnal mind has to pervert the factual verses in order to believe the circumstantial verses. The factual verses explain the circumstantial verses. As in this one, "One God the Father". The Father is the one God. But if you read one you see there is also one Lord Jesus Christ, which explains why John said it the way he did.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
(NKJ)
THE DIVINITY(DEITY) OF CHRIST
Acts 17:29-30
29 "Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising.
30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
(NKJ)
2 Pet 1:4
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
ONLY GOD CAN BE WORSHIPPED (WE CAN AND WILL BE WORSHIPPED)
Rev 3:9
9 "Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie-- indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.
THREE IN ONE GOD, ONE GOD IN THREE
Everything that separates trinitarians from Christians comes from out side of the scriptures. Trintiy, deity, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.
Eph 4:6
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 8:6
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
The apostles even said. Yet for us there is one God the Father.
Christians believe there is one God the Father.
Trinitarians always start with questions, this is how they deceive.
2 Tim 2:23
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.
(NKJ)
THE 'ARE ONE' DELUSION
WE ARE ONE WITH CHRIST AND GOD AND HOLY SPIRIT
IF JESUS IS GOD BECAUSE OF THE ONENESS-THEN WE ARE GOD. NOT SO!
John 10:30
30 "I and My Father are one."
(NKJ)
John 17:22
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
I Jn 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 Cor 12:12-14
12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body-- whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free-- and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
1 Cor 10:16-17
16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17 For we, though many, are one bread and one body; for we all partake of that one bread.
1 Cor 3:7-11
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.
11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Rom 12:5
5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another.
John 17:20-23
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 "And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 "I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
John 10:29-30
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 "I and My Father are one."
Eph 4:4-6
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor 6:17
17 But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
Matt 10:32-33
32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
1 Cor 11:1
1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ.
2 Cor 10:4-5
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
1 Cor 11:3
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
Rom 16:25-27
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen.
1 Cor 1:10
10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
Rom 12:16
16 Be of the same mind toward one another. Do not set your mind on high things, but associate with the humble. Do not be wise in your own opinion.
Phil 3:16
16 Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
2 Cor 4:13-14
13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
14 knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus, and will present us with you.
(NKJ)
xxOneness is all about agreement. John 17-22 Jesus prayed that we may be one the same way that Jesus and God are one. Jesus submitted to every Word of God that shows His agreement. We are to submit to every Word of God to show our agreement.
Jesus prayed John 17-22 that we "are one" with Jesus and God the Father. And that doesnt make us God any more than it made Jesus God to be one with God.
THE I AM DELUSION
John 7:39-43
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
John 7:51-52
51 Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?
52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
John 8:1-2
1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
John 8:12
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:16-18
16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true: for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
John 8:21
21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
John 8:23-24
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 8:28-29
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
John 8:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
(KJV)
xxx Jesus was teaching in the temple and they were questioning Him on whether or not He was the Christ. Then they all went home and came back the next day to question Him some more. When Jesus told them: you will die in your sins if you do not believe that I am He. Then in verse 58 Jesus was telling them that even before Abraham that I am . But they picked up stones to throw at Him so they cut Jesus off in the middle of His sentance and Jesus got out of there. Jesus was claiming that" I AM He" the Christ. Jesus was not claiming He was God.
verse 24 and 28 Jesus said it, I am he. Jesus was saying He was the Christ that they were speaking of in John 7-41. But in is obvious why they didnt understand from John 7-39 they havent received the Holy Spirit yet. And even today many do not know the Spirit and get deceived in the verses.
Only People Who Worship In The Flesh Believe Jesus Is God
On Ro 9
Paul is talking about having great sorrow and grief over those who worship in the flesh.According to the flesh he could even wish he were cut off from Christ. Because those who worship in the flesh believe that Christ came and that Christ is the eternally blessed God.But as Paul says they are not all Israel who are from Israel nor are they children of Abraham seed. Those who worship in the flesh and believe this are not children of God.
Rom 9:1-8
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,
2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart.
3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh,
4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called."
8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
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