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Author Topic: Rapture and Second Coming
WildB
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quote:Originally posted by Bloodbought:
" In Noah’s time, which came first, the raising of the ark or the wrath of the rain poured out on the wicked? They came together. It makes no sense to say that the ark was lifted before judgment fell."
[/QUOTE]


What came 1st is Noah's Faith in the Word of God and it was this Faith that lifted the ark out of the gopher wood, which took 120 years.

The water existed in the firmaments from creation for the Lords 1st Judgement as does the fire for the 2nd.

2 Petter 3

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

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That is all.....

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WildB
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quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Author Topic: The Rapture Is Not The Second Coming
Watcher

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posted October 07, 2005 11:01 AM
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64 Reasons The Rapture Of The Church Is Not The Second Coming Of Christ To Reign On Earth
Those who do not believe in the biblical doctrine of the Rapture of the Church, usually argue that there is only one Coming or return of Christ to the earth to judge the nations. Some hold that this One Coming is simply for taking the believers home to heaven, with a judgment to follow.

Those who hold to the Rapture of the Church are far more careful to observe what the Bible says in context. They can observe the simple fact that there is a difference between up and down. Believers go up to meet Christ in the air. The Second Coming is indeed truly a “coming” of the Lord down to the earth physically to establish the millennial kingdom promised to the Old Testament prophets.

Below is a list of verses and points, as shown in the Bible, highlighting the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming of the Lord to reign on earth. Some wonder why there is a heated discussion about this issue. It is important for the following reasons:

First, if the Rapture truly is in Scripture, that is enough to make it important. In other words, every doctrine the Lord has given us has a purpose and is important, simply because He has given it to us!

The Rapture is called the Blessed Hope. It promises redemption from the terrible seven year Tribulation so detailed in the book of Revelation.

Generally speaking, those who deny the Rapture of the Church interpret the Bible in a “spiritualized” or “allegorical” way. They also fail to consider “contexts.” They deny certain passages of Scripture in the normal sense. By letting the Bible speak plainly in its teachings to us, we honor the Lord. We take His Word at face value!

Some general rules to note:

Rapture passages are addressed to believers in the body of Christ. They are verses that speak of going directly back or up to the Lord in heaven.

Second Coming passages have to do with the Lord coming down to earth to bless Israel, judge the nations, and rule the earth with a scepter of iron!

Comparison Of Rapture And Second Coming Verses:

Rapture: Christ prepares a place for us and takes us back to heaven. “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:1-3).
Second Coming: Coming to reign and rule in Jerusalem, Christ’s feet touch upon the Mt. of Olives. “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount will split in its middle” (Zech. 14:4).

Rapture: Christ prepares a place in heaven. “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2).
Second Coming: Christ becomes a ruling king on earth. “The Lord will be king over all the earth” (Zech. 14:9).

Rapture: The Church is with the Lord in heaven. “Where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:3).
Second Coming: The Jewish people are with their king on earth. “And people will live in [Jerusalem], and there will be no more curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security” (Zech. 14:11).

Rapture: Announced by the trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Announced simply by a great trumpet (but not called the trumpet of God) (Matt. 24:31).

Rapture: Those “in Christ” are gathered “to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: The “elect” gathered (of Jews and the nations) (Matt. 24:31) to come before the king on His earthly throne (Matt. 25:31).

Rapture: The Lord descends from heaven with a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: The Lord does not shout (Scripture gives no indication of such).

Rapture: The voice of the archangel is heard (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Many angels sound a great trumpet but their voices are not heard (Matt. 24:31).

Rapture: No sign given for His coming.
Second Coming: A sign is given (Matt. 24:30).

Rapture: Called the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:9).
Second Coming: Called the Son of Man. A distinct messianic term used to describe the earthly Davidic king who shall reign in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:30).

Rapture: Comforting words for the Church. The Church will not mourn. “Comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:18).
Second Coming: The nation of Israel will mourn. “Those who pierced Him will mourn” (Rev. 1;7).

Rapture: The Scriptures do not indicate that the lost of the world will see His Rapture coming.
Second Coming: The entire world will see the Son of Man coming. “All the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky” (Matt. 24:30).

Rapture: The Church saints (those in Christ) will be caught up alive “to be together (with the resurrected Church saints) in the clouds” (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: The Messiah, the Son of Man, comes with the clouds (Matt. 24:30) to gather the elect to the place of His earthly throne (25:31).

Rapture: Christ’s power is not necessarily displayed openly to the world.
Second Coming: He comes “with power and great glory” as the Son of Man to rule on earth (Matt. 24:31).

Rapture: Called the Day of Christ (Phil. 1:6, 10; 2:16). Day of blessing for the believer.
Second Coming: Called the Day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2). Day of judgment for the world, “When they (the world) says ‘Peace and Safety!’ then destruction comes upon them” (v. 3).

Rapture: The Day of the Lord. “That day should not overtake you like a thief” (1 Thess. 5:5).
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord. “Shall come [on them, the world] like a thief” (1 Thess. 5:2).

Rapture: Believers in this Church age will be Raptured out of the Tribulation because they are sons of light, sons of the day (1 Thess. 5:5).
Second Coming: Unbelievers left behind to face the Tribulation (the Day of the Lord) because they are of the night, of the darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).

Rapture: Believers will be Raptured because they are not destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).
Second Coming: Unbelievers will face the Day of the Lord because (implied) they are destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).

Rapture: The Dead “in Christ” are raised (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: No mention of the Dead “in Christ” being raised.

Rapture: The Rapture takes place with no mention of the issue of sin.
Second Coming: The Second Coming of Christ to judge because of the wickedness of the world.

Rapture: No mention of Christ coming to rule on earth.
Second Coming: Mentions that He comes to establish His earthly kingdom (Matt. 25:31-34).

Rapture: No mention of believers “inheriting the kingdom prepared for you” (Matt. 25:34).
Second Coming: The righteous “inherit the kingdom” (Matt. 25:34).

Rapture: Christ does not do battle with His enemies at the Rapture.
Second Coming: Christ does battle with His enemies at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:17-21).

Rapture: Christ does not come to earth as a conquering warrior.
Second Coming: He comes to earth as a conquering warrior (Rev. 19:11-16).

Rapture: He comes as the Head of the Church.
Second Coming: He comes as “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (Rev. 19:16).

Rapture: No earthly reign takes place.
Second Coming: He reigns for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5).

Rapture: Those Raptured resurrected are taken up to meet the Lord in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: Those in the resurrection at the beginning of the thousand year kingdom, “will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6).

Rapture: When the resurrected Church saints, and we the living Church saints, all together are taken up in the clouds, it is said “we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:17). Therefore, when Jesus comes to reign on earth for one thousand years, the Church Age saints will return with Him.
Second Coming: Those resurrected at the beginning of the one thousand year reign are apparently those who died during the great Tribulation (Rev. 20:6).

Rapture: Resurrection and Rapture only for “those in Christ.”
Second Coming: A resurrection for Old Testament saints, that takes place after the “time of distress” (the Tribulation) (Dan. 12:1-2).

Rapture: The unsaved people of the nations are unaffected and unchanged at the Rapture.
Second Coming: The nations are judged and/or blessed when the Messiah comes to reign.

Rapture: The nation of Israel is left unchanged when the Rapture takes place.
Second Coming: The nation of Israel is gathered, judged, and the righteous Jews inter kingdom blessing.

Rapture: No herald goes before to announce the Rapture.
Second Coming: Elijah comes to announce the coming of the Messiah (Mal. 4:5).

Rapture: Can happen at any moment.
Second Coming: Comes at the end of the seven year Tribulation.

Rapture: Not before revealed that Paul had to reveal (1 Thess. 4:13). That’s why Paul says he must tell believers about the Rapture so that they would not be ignorant of the fact.
Second Coming: Throughly revealed in Old Testament promises and by Christ in the Gospels.

Rapture: Called a “mystery,” something not before revealed (1 Cor. 15:51).
Second Coming: The Second Coming is a well known fact taught throughout the Old Testament prophets.

Rapture: Believers are changed (1 Cor. 15:51).
Second Coming: Believers are not said to be changed, that is, those who believed during the Tribulation and are alive to enter the kingdom when the Messiah comes.

Rapture: Before the Rapture, the believers are called those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Those believing who are in the Tribulation (Rev. 6-19) are not called “Church saints” nor “those in Christ.”

Rapture: Before the Rapture, the believers are called those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Both Jew and Gentile who enter the kingdom in their natural body are never called “the Church” nor “those in Christ.”

Rapture: When the Rapture takes place those in Christ are “changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
Second Coming: Though the Second Coming happens quickly, the event is still pictured as something that unfolds over (even) a short period of time. A sign in heaven is given, an earthly gathering takes place, both Jews and Gentile mourn at His coming, He steps onto the Mt. of Olives, He enters the city of Jerusalem.

Rapture: When the Rapture and/or the resurrection of “those in Christ” takes place, the believer is given “the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” over the issue of death (1 Cor. 15:57).
Second Coming: When the Second Coming takes place, Christ comes as the victorious king and general. Following the kingdom and the Great White Throne Judgment, certainly all saints of all the ages past are given eternal life. But this is not mentioned as such at the Second Coming.

Rapture: The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ for His own, the Church (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must first intervene. Church believers, then, should look for signs. But they are not told to.

Rapture: Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming: Creation is changed by the blessings of the kingdom (Isa. 65:25). “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, … They shall do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain, says the Lord.”

Rapture: At the time of the Rapture, or before, there is no indication that the Church saints will see the antichrist or the “power, signs, and false wonders” of Satan (2 Thess. 2:8-9).
Second Coming: After the Rapture and sometime before the Second Coming of Christ, the antichrist will “display himself as being God” in the temple (2 Thess. 2:4; 8-9).

Rapture: The Rapture is not the Day of the Lord which holds terror for the world.
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord is a terrible event that the believers in the Church do not fear. “Do not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed … to the effect that the day of the Lord has come” (2 Thess. 2:1-2).

Rapture: The “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him” is not the Second Coming (2 Thess. 2:1).
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord is “a coming” to earth, not our being gathered to heaven (2 Thess. 2:2).

Rapture: Christ is not said to destroy the antichrist “with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).
Second Coming: Christ destroys the antichrist at His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).

Rapture: The Rapture is not called the Second Coming.
Second Coming: This is virtually called the Second Coming in Hebrews 9:28. Christ “shall appear a “Second time” for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Rapture: In the Rapture “we” are “caught up” into the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17). “Caught up” in Greek means to suddenly “snatch, jerk away, remove quickly.”
Second Coming: This is not said of the Second Coming.

Rapture: For those who are now looking for the Rapture, a hope is given and causes a moral purification (1 John 3:2-3).
Second Coming: This is not said of those looking for the Second Coming, though that is a glorious event in itself!

Proofs of the Imminency of the Rapture

Imminency means that Paul taught that the Rapture could happen at any time to those to whom he was writing. The key to Rapture passages is Paul’s use of “we, you, us.” In other words believers now are to look for this catching away! (Sometimes these pronouns are not in the English Bible versions but they are implied in the grammar of the verbs Paul uses.)

The “you, we, us” passages addressed to the body of Christ, the Church saints

John 14:1-3
I go to prepare a place for you.
I will receive you to Myself.
Where I am, there you may be also.

James 5:7-9
[You] strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
[You] behold, the judge is standing right at the door.

1 Thess. 1:9-10
You wait for His Son from heaven.
Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess. 2:17-19
You [our hope], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming.

1 Thess. 3:13
That [He may] establish your hearts … before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
We who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. We shall always be with the Lord.
You comfort one another with these words.

1 Thess. 5:1-11
You are not in darkness, that the day [of the Lord] should overtake you like a thief.
You are all sons of light and sons of day.
We are not of night nor of darkness.
But since we are of the day, let us be sober.
God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 5:23
May the Lord sanctify you … without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess. 2:1-2
With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.
[You] be not quickly shaken … to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

1 Tim. 6:14
You keep the commandment … until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:51-52
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
The dead in Christ will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Phil. 3:20-21
Our citizenship is in heaven.
We eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Christ] will transform the body of our humble state (or humiliated body).

Titus 2:13
[We are] looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

1 John 2:28
We may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

1 John 3:2-3
We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
Everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

A Key Passage: 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

The Thessalonian church was “serving” and “waiting for God’s Son from heaven.” (They were not just serving; they were not just waiting! They were doing both!)

“Jesus who ‘rescues’ us away from the wrath (that is certainly) coming” (Greek)

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Watcher



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That is all.....

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becauseHElives
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quote:
Michael Harrison,
2Ti 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

Just a little speck, a truth for you.

Coming from someone that teaches obedience is not part of the Christian Faith, I wonder about those itching ears.

Think about it!

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Originally posted by sharethelove31:

I noticed a solid Christian evangelism site recommended the chat room witnessing methods listed here:

1. Group unity of Christians
2. Coordinate communication among Christians for sharing Christ
3. Meet outside the chatroom to pray and communicate prior to going forward into chatroom evangelism.

The preceding is excellent advice for Christian unity. But, for your information, this is also the exact method chat room pagans (to put it mildly) use.
Thank you.
God bless.

If they are willingly mislead, they have chosen their poison. I am not telling anyone not to go there, God forbid. Just go there sober, and without any illusions! Maybe i should go.

But my Bible, says SEEK, and ye shall find. (Just a little TRUTH for you.) If anyone wants to know for sure, and they have the intelligence to find the Amazon, they can surely find this site. Many people go to places like that because they have "itching ears."
2Ti 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"
Just a little speck, a truth for you.

Here's one: Act 14:19 "And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead."
The message of Paul and Barnabus was at first received:
Act 14:11 "And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men."
They at first recieved the Apostles. Then, being stirred up, and after Paul admitted that they were just men, they turned on Paul.

Is God going to change them, or you? Know b4u go.
Get the Mormons and Jehova's Witness while you are at it. (Sorry. Though it is serious, it is funny!) I pray that you affect someone for the better, for sure!

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becauseHElives
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Lots of good reading here, different thoughts, all good, but all can’t be correct

I believe Yahweh gave me these words some time back and they are always True….

You might be right and I wrong on a topic
Or
I might be right and you wrong on a topic
Or
You and I both might be wrong on a topic
But
Yahweh’s Word is forever settled in Heaven and He is always right!

quote:
Rogg , Too bad those being martyred for Jesus in other countries aren't as deserving as the proud affluent Americans that believe they will escape what is to come.
Comment on this statement by Rogg...


I believe America has an appointment with Yahweh’s Judgment in the very near future!

Not because Sin (divorce, abortion, homosexuality, incest, lying , murder, stealing, and every other type of sin) abounds on every open street in America

but because of the compromised message of the Cross and the shameful lives of professing Christians in this land.

I believe in the Rapture, I believe it has been the “Hope of the Church” since the days Yeshua began to preach and teach, it is this “Hope” that purifies as John said….1 John 3:3

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Someone earlier in this post said "Yeshua is coming for those watching for His appearance"…

If I am watching for His coming, I will not be loving this world, I will not be caught up in the cares of this life, I will be pointing people to the Cross, the Precious Blood, The Savior.

I will be warning people of the judgment as Noah was doing, being obedient to put my hands to what ever Yahweh has instructed me to do.

Just as in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the return of Yeshua.

Noah preached 120 years, no one listened but that did not stop Noah….

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

We have been warned are we moved with the reverent fear of a loving God.

Yeshua is coming soon, be ready…..

Read Luke 21 in its entirety.

But take heed to yourselves and be on your guard, lest your hearts be overburdened and depressed (weighed down) with the giddiness and headache and nausea of self-indulgence, drunkenness, and worldly worries and cares pertaining to [the business of] this life, and [lest] that day come upon you suddenly like a trap or a noose;

For it will come upon all who live upon the face of the entire earth.

Keep awake then and watch at all times [be discreet, attentive, and ready], praying that you may have the full strength and ability and be accounted worthy to escape all these things [taken together] that will take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=21&version=45#cen-AMP-25849A

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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )

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Michael Harrison
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Two comments:

Concerning your revelation post, the dark and fearful truth concerning the tribulation for all believers is that, "Darkness cometh when no man worketh." That's pretty extreme, which indicates just how horrendous and dominating the powers that will be, will be.

Concerning the other chat room, anyone using it, if they were really seeking the truth, would know to look for other sites, such as this one. As you said, they don't want to know the truth, so your input was of perhaps little value. If you feel led to go there, good and well. Also, people could pray over such sites that many will look for other sites, such as this one, and get their truth.

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Michael Harrison
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael Harrison:
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
Jesus Promised the Rapture
By D. G. Alley

When Hal Lindsey wrote his book The Late Great Planet Earth back in the 1970s he touched off a firestorm of interest in the study of prophecy.

“No, I am the one who will accomplish the resurrection.” He changes the concept from something, which will merely happen, to something, which He will personally carry out.


I just want to profulsely thank you for letting me post here. Momentarily, i want to say something that will either make you laugh, or shake you to your core, for we are closer than anyone dares to think. You decide....
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Kindgo
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Jesus Promised the Rapture
By D. G. Alley

When Hal Lindsey wrote his book The Late Great Planet Earth back in the 1970s he touched off a firestorm of interest in the study of prophecy. What was once only of interest to scholars suddenly became a subject of discussion for everyday people. And by the millions, they wanted to know more. Since then, numerous books and articles have been written in an attempt to interpret the Bible’s descriptions of the end times, and in particular, its prophecy of the Rapture. During that time, a rather curious consensus seems to have emerged. It seems to be the opinion of most theologians, prophecy scholars, etc, that Paul was the first to reveal the promise of the Rapture, and that Jesus never mentioned it.

Actually, he did.

Just to make sure that we will recognize a prophecy of the Rapture when we happen across it, let’s look at the descriptions of the Rapture in the letters of Paul.

1 Cor 15:51-53 (NRSV) – Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

1 Thess 4:13-18 (NRSV) – But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who have died, so that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have died. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died. For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from Heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Paul says that he will tell us a mystery, meaning that he will explain to his readers something that had been a secret, not previously revealed to them. Although Jesus had already lived, died, and rose again, the Gospels had not yet been written and circulated at the time Paul wrote these letters.

What is the word picture that he paints with these two passages?

Jesus will descend out of Heaven.

With the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God, Jesus will command his dead believers out of their graves.

The dead will rise to life in new, immortal bodies.

Then, the bodies of those believers who are still alive when that happens, will be changed to immortal bodies also.

The change will be fast, happening in the twinkling of an eye.

Both those believers who had been dead and those who were still alive will then be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus and be with him forever.

Notice in the Thessalonians passage that Paul makes a distinction between God the Father and Jesus the Son, and he indicates that Jesus is the agency through which God will accomplish these things. Notice also that when he uses the term ‘Lord’, he is referring to Jesus. And lastly, notice that he declares these things “… by the word of the Lord…” which would seem to indicate that Jesus had mentioned them to his disciples. Paul is claiming that Jesus had actually talked about these things while he was here on Earth.

That being the case, it would be reasonable for us to search the Gospels to see if any of the writers recorded Jesus’ words on the subject. Will we find any? Yes we will.

In the fifth chapter of John, we find Jesus speaking to the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem.

John 5:25-29 (NRSV) – “Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself; and he has given him authority to execute judgement, because he is the Son of Man. Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and will come out -- those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

The phrase ‘...the Father has life in himself…’ doesn’t merely mean that God is alive; it means that God the Father has within him the capacity and power to bestow life. Jesus then indicates that God the Father has given Jesus that power also, along with the authority to decide who to give life to.

In this passage, Jesus doesn’t go into as much explanation as Paul did in his letters, but we do have some of the elements listed by Paul:

Jesus is the agency who will accomplish these things.

The dead saints will be called out of their graves.

The dead saints will be raised to life, not condemnation.

Later on, in Chapter Six, we find Jesus speaking to a crowd along the shore of the Sea of Galilee.

John 6:39,40 (NRSV) – And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. This is indeed the will of my Father, that all who see the son and believe in him may have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day.”

In this passage we find that:

Jesus is the agency who will accomplish the feat.

He will raise up (from the dead) those who believe in him.

The raised believers will have eternal life.

In both of the instances cited above, we have some of the elements listed by Paul, but not all. Jesus talks about what he will do about believers who have died, but in neither case does he talk about those who are still alive. Fortunately for us, elsewhere he does.

In Chapter 11 of his Gospel, John records the death of Lazarus, brother of Mary and Martha. When Jesus arrives in Bethany four days after Lazarus had died, Martha confronts him on his way into town.

John 11:21-26 (NRSV) – Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that God will give you whatever you ask of him.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

The phrase ‘I am the resurrection and the life’ mirrors the comments Jesus made in Chapter 6. He is the agency through which the resurrection will be accomplished, and He has the capacity to bestow life. Actually, Jesus appears to be correcting Martha’s misguided understanding of the concept. She espouses a generalized belief in a resurrection, and Jesus, in effect says, “No, I am the one who will accomplish the resurrection.” He changes the concept from something, which will merely happen, to something, which He will personally carry out.

The first half of the next sentence is rather straightforward; the dead who had believed in Him will be brought back to life. This also agrees with chapter 6.

The second half of that sentence, however, deserves a bit of analysis and explanation, because Modern English does not always use verb tenses in the same way that Koine Greek did.

“…and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.”

At first glance, to the Modern English speaker, this appears to say that all the people who ever became believers in Jesus would escape death. But that would contradict the first half of the sentence, which indicates that some will, indeed, die. It would also mean that people like Martin Luther, William Tyndale, Jonathan Edwards, and Dwight L. Moody would still be around, collecting Social Security, and perhaps still teaching at the seminary. But they’re dead. Believers have been dying for about twenty centuries now, so the sentence simply must mean something else. What might that be?

Consider the following:

If someone were to ask you how Old Man Smith was, you could reply, “He lives.” But, your listener would be left hanging by such a reply, expecting you to complete the thought by saying where Old Man Smith lives. He will be expecting a phrase like ‘on Elm Street’ or ‘in a nursing home.’ Even though the word ‘lives’ is the present tense, continuing action form of the verb ‘to live,’ we normally don’t use it that way. The word ‘lives’ is most commonly used to mean ‘resides.’ Thus, ‘Old Man Smith lives on Elm Street.’

If we merely wanted to express the thought that Old Man Smith had not yet died, instead of saying, “He lives,” we would more likely say instead, “He is still alive.”

Since ‘is still alive’ means exactly the same thing as the present tense, continuing action verb ‘lives,’ let’s make a substitution and compare the second half of the sentence again.

“…and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.”
“…and everyone who is still alive and believes in me will never die”
The meaning comes through a bit more clearly, doesn’t it?

But now, the sentence begs the question, ‘Still alive, when?’ Well, it’s the second half of a sentence. Obviously it means still alive when whatever is contained in the first half of the sentence, happens. Still alive when those who had died, come back to life. Let’s reprint the whole sentence with the substitution and compare.

“I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die.”

“I am the resurrection and the life. Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and everyone who is still alive and believes in me will never die."

Suddenly, what was cryptic becomes understandable.

Jesus claims the capacity to grant life.
Jesus says that he will accomplish the resurrection.
Dead believers will be brought back to life.
Believers who are still alive will live forever.
Now, that has to be the rapture! Jesus may not have gone into as much detail as Paul did, but he said enough for us to recognize that they were talking about the same event. What Jesus said was a flat-out promise of the Rapture!

What happened in Bethany that day was an astounding sequence of events. Martha confronted Jesus and accused him of letting Lazarus die instead of healing him.

In response, Jesus did the following:

He claimed the power to grant life.
He promised to raise dead believers back to life.
He improved the promise to not just life, but eternal life.
And he included believers who would still be alive at the time.

Then he called a dead man back to life out of the grave to prove that he could do what he promised!

In his letters, Paul gave a testimony of words when he explained the Rapture. In Bethany, Jesus gave us a more powerful testimony of action.

Scripture quotations are from the New Revised Standard Version Bible, copyright ã 1989 National Council of Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Tubal Cain
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What did Jesus say about a rapture?
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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
The truth must be appropriated by faith into our lives in order to realize it effectiveness(power).

This goes along with Hebrews 4:2, too, wherein the Lord says that the Word must be mixed with faith, that you cain't have one without the other.

That's why the scoffers, who read the Word academically, cain't get It. Not counting the fact that they cain't get It cuz they are trying to destroy It, anyways.

I love the enthusiasm I'm seeing!

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oneinchrist
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Hi aiopj,
I agree with your elaboration on my #2. The truth must be appropriated by faith into our lives in order to realize it effectiveness(power). Thanks for that bold elaboration of my conviction. Praise God. With love in Christ, Daniel

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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
I would say you have confirmed two of my convictions.

1. That the type of love that you describe is the type of love that Jesus showed us, hence we should follow His example.

2. The urgency of time. That we need to get out the Word and not worry about others reactions....for it is the truth that is the power to save..........if I do not share the truth, do I really believe in its power?

Hallelujah!

Those two points, as you know, are probably THE most important elements at this time. An understanding of those two things is fundamental to the instruction in the work we must do, as fellow laborers with Him in His work of Redemption.

It's critical that you see "love" as I describe it -- taken from the Word, as a Whole -- because it is part of our job description. Without an understanding of that, how can we know what to do, for we must be instructed in the work we must do. So, it's great to see -- Thank you, Lord! -- that you see this, too.

If I can be so bold as to add to something in number two.

It is the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth that frees. The Spirit of the Lord is Knowledge. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty.

The Book, lying on a coffee table, or sitting on a bookshelf, does nothing, although the Work is the Power of God.

In other words, He already did the Work, praise God. He waits on us to pick up the Book and get the Knowledge -- capitalized to indicate His Knowledge, not men's puny knowledge.

So, the power to free us takes action on our part, too. Our choice to rely on the Word goes to credit on our account, although He gets the glory.

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oneinchrist
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Hi aiopj,
I would say you have confirmed two of my convictions.

1. That the type of love that you describe is the type of love that Jesus showed us, hence we should follow His example.

2. The urgency of time. That we need to get out the Word and not worry about others reactions....for it is the truth that is the power to save..........if I do not share the truth, do I really believe in its power?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
... You have been confirming some of my convictions with your words...

Like what?
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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
LOL aiopg,
yes, I noticed that.

I think I know what happened, and I caught myself doing it again this morning.

I wanted to edit my post -- I'm always editing and revising -- and, instead of clicking on the "edit" icon, I clicked on they "reply" icon.

So, being a doofus, I edited the post, not knowing that I was about to re-post what I already had posted. So, I inadvertently duplicated it, as I say, being a doofus.

So, this morning, having caught myself being a doofus again, I was able to prevent duplicate postings.

On the other hand, there is another way to look at it.

The Lord may have thought that what I posted needed to be re-emphasized.

Praise the Lord!

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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
What encourages me is that we can have differences in the way that we view certain things, but still be respectful towards one another.

Those of us who are truly born again must want, every minute of every day, to find out what He says. As I say, there's enough Truth in the Word of Truth to last ten lifetimes. Our job is to get that Truth and make sure everyone is on the same page.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
But I do pray to God that if one of us is going way off the deep end, that we have another brother or sister in the Lord come along and help.

If a person asks for help, God will send one of His Messengers -- that is, those who are truly born again.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
We are unique in Christ in that the Holy Spirit does offer each one of us individual insight and testimony.

The Holy Spirit confirms the Word.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist: With that we should use it as a source of encouragement to strengthen one another and provoke to Godly love.....like the love that you describe that is selfless towards the concern of others towards Christ.
One day, I started wondering why everybody talks about godly "love," appearing not to understand what it is. They never define it.

So, as a start, I went to my Bible dictionary, and it says, "unselfish concern." That rang such a strong bell that I knew then that I was onto something.

I began to compare that to the run of Scripture, and VOILA! a biblical definition of "love." It makes sense, doesn't it?

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
You have been confirming some of my convictions with your words...

Thank the Lord that I can help!

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
The time is short and the enemy is roaring...but with the helper which is promised to those who put faith in Jesus Christ, and by praying according to the will of God, we can receive the help whereby strongholds are brought down and testimonies move hearts towards God.

This is why I act as urgently and as enthusiastically as I do, because I am so convinced -- as are you and others who are truly born again -- that it won't be long now.

The Lord urges us to make a straight path for Him, to prepare a people for Him.

However, we have to remember that healing can take place not only when the person through whom the healing is directed by Him has faith but, also, when the person to be healed has faith. It's like a battery, and it's not maintenance-free. If the person to be healed has not faith, our ministering to him will not work in him, rather in those truly born again. In other words, if it doesn't work in the unfaithful, the ministering may do a work in us and, really, may be meant for us rather than him.

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oneinchrist
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LOL aiopg,
yes, I noticed that. Thank you for your response. What encourages me is that we can have differences in the way that we view certain things, but still be respectful towards one another. But I do pray to God that if one of us is going way off the deep end, that we have another brother or sister in the Lord come along and help. We are unique in Christ in that the Holy Spirit does offer each one of us individual insight and testimony. With that we should use it as a source of encouragement to strengthen one another and provoke to Godly love.....like the love that you describe that is selfless towards the concern of others towards Christ. You have been confirming some of my convictions with your words, let me also be of the same inspiration to you in the Lord. I am urging believers to pray diligently to the Lord Jesus for the helper. The time is short and the enemy is roaring...but with the helper which is promised to those who put faith in Jesus Christ, and by praying according to the will of God, we can receive the help whereby strongholds are brought down and testimonies move hearts towards God. With love in Christ, Daniel

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aiopj
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I have absolutely no idea what happened there.

So, don't lookit me.

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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again aiopj...

Yo!

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Are you implying that only those who share the same end-time view as you...

I'm not sure that I expressed a view on the "Rapture." I could have blacked out and said something.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
... Are born-again?

I know there are many ideas about what happens during that time.

I lean in favor of the Rapture and the Tribulation that follows that but precedes His Coming.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
... I do believe in rapture. I just am very skeptical about a great tribulation that occurs after the rapture. Jesus seems to be clear when He speaks of a time of great tribulation that preceeds His coming.

As I say, I'm leaning in favor of the Rapture and the Tribulation between that and His Return.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
My fear is that many unbelievers have the idea that Gods grace has no limit.

Of course, God's Grace, through Jesus Christ, is not unlimited. He will not stay judgment, as you know.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
If the coming of Christ signifies the end of Gods patience with us, then there will be no time after that to change our minds about God and repent.

That's correct.

We have had, what, at least 2000 years, up to now, to know and to understand and to comprehend. This stuff is actually priddy easy, and we have a little time left.

What will more time do that the past, say, several thousand years hasn't provided? He is giving us the chance now, and, before it's too late, we must declare ourselves.

It wouldn't be Justice to treat those who are obedient -- those who are truly born again -- as He does the disobedient.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
So in essence what I am implying is that if there was this additional time after Christs return where unbelievers can still come to repentance, then whether we call it great trib or whatever, it is an extension of the time of Gods grace...even if it meant martydom. This whole concept reminds me of the false teaching of purgatory that pervades the catholic church....and we know the true source of that lie.
Since you now understand that my concern is towards the unbeliever, where do you find fault in my thinking?

If I read you correctly, I find no fault.

If you're saying that the unbeliever thinks that God's Grace knows no bounds, and you're saying that unbelievers actually say this -- cuz I haven't heard it; not to say they haven't said it -- I agree that they are wrong. That's why He comes to sweep up the few, the remnant into His arms and leave the dross to burn in a heap. The unbeliever says that God doesn't really mean what He says, and that this must mean that the unbeliever can go on in his disobedient ways cuz, in his mind, God will forget about it all anyways even IF the unbeliever is awed by His Coming.

Maybe the point I can make is this:

God doesn't want you cuz you're afraid of burnin' to a crisp. He wants you to follow Him cuz you love Him. The unbeliever will be afraid to toast; that will have nothing to do with love for God and His Son.

Praise the Lord for your enthusiasm and your willingness to engage with me in learning Him! [/QUOTE]

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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi again aiopj...

Yo!

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Are you implying that only those who share the same end-time view as you...

I'm not sure that I expressed a view on the "Rapture." I could have blacked out and said something.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
... Are born-again?

I know there are many ideas about what happens during that time.

I lean in favor of the Rapture and the Tribulation that follows that but precedes His Coming.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
... I do believe in rapture. I just am very skeptical about a great tribulation that occurs after the rapture. Jesus seems to be clear when He speaks of a time of great tribulation that preceeds His coming.

As I say, I'm leaning in favor of the Rapture and the Tribulation between that and His Return.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
My fear is that many unbelievers have the idea that Gods grace has no limit.

Of course, God's Grace, through Jesus Christ, is not unlimited. He will not stay judgment, as you know.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
If the coming of Christ signifies the end of Gods patience with us, then there will be no time after that to change our minds about God and repent.

That's correct.

We have had, what, at least 2000 years, up to now, to know and to understand and to comprehend. This stuff is actually priddy easy, and we have a little time left.

What will more time do that the past, say, several thousand years hasn't provided? He is giving us the chance now, and, before it's too late, we must declare ourselves.

It wouldn't be Justice to treat those who are obedient -- those who are truly born again -- as He does the disobedient.

quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
So in essence what I am implying is that if there was this additional time after Christs return where unbelievers can still come to repentance, then whether we call it great trib or whatever, it is an extension of the time of Gods grace...even if it meant martydom. This whole concept reminds me of the false teaching of purgatory that pervades the catholic church....and we know the true source of that lie.
Since you now understand that my concern is towards the unbeliever, where do you find fault in my thinking?

If I read you correctly, I find no fault.

If you're saying that the unbeliever thinks that God's Grace knows no bounds, and you're saying that unbelievers actually say this -- cuz I haven't heard it; not to say they haven't said it -- I agree that they are wrong. That's why He comes to sweep up the few, the remnant into His arms and leave the dross to burn in a heap. The unbeliever says that God doesn't really mean what He says, and that this must mean that the unbeliever can go on in his disobedient ways cuz, in his mind, God will forget about it all anyways even IF he is born again at the last second.

Maybe the point I can make is this:

God doesn't want you cuz you're afraid of burnin' to a crisp. He wants you to follow Him cuz you love Him. The unbeliever will be afraid to toast; that will have nothing to do with love for God and His Son.

Praise the Lord for your enthusiasm and your willingness to engage with me in learning Him!

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oneinchrist
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Hi again aiopj,
Im a little confused about your response to me. Are you implying that only those who share the same end-time view as you are born-again? Please let me clarify something about the posts I have been making on this subject.
First of all, I do believe in rapture. I just am very skeptical about a great tribulation that occurs after the rapture. Jesus seems to be clear when He speaks of a time of great tribulation that preceeds His coming.
My fear is that many unbelievers have the idea that Gods grace has no limit. If the coming of Christ signifies the end of Gods patience with us, then there will be no time after that to change our minds about God and repent. So in essence what I am implying is that if there was this additional time after Christs return where unbelievers can still come to repentance, then whether we call it great trib or whatever, it is an extension of the time of Gods grace...even if it meant martydom. This whole concept reminds me of the false teaching of purgatory that pervades the catholic church....and we know the true source of that lie.
Since you now understand that my concern is towards the unbeliever, where do you find fault in my thinking?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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aiopj
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quote:
Originally posted by oneinchrist:
Hi Isaiah,
What may seem clear to you may not seem clear to others.

Remembering, also, that God says that His Mysteries are not given to all. He says that They are given only to those who are truly born again, who are diligent, who seek and excel in Knowledge -- capitalized to indicate His Knowledge, not to be confused with the puny knowledge of men.
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oneinchrist
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Hi Isaiah,
What may seem clear to you may not seem clear to others. I do believe that Jesus is very clear when he speak of a time of great tribulation before the end comes. Then when the end is described the angels are gathering the elect. I have a KJV bible, are there any of you out there that do not have Jesus speaking of Great tribulation before His coming in your bible? Matthew 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation..... Now it does appear that Jesus is telling the story in a chronological fashion with His coming as the culminating event. What I am not so sure about (and neither are bible scholars) is that Revelation is in a chronological sequence from beginning to end. My thoughts are that it isnt because an account of the devil being cast out is in Chapter 12 and throughout Revelation Jesus keeps repeating " Behold, I am coming quickly". With love in Christ , Daniel.

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Hi Corriee,
Thank you for the response. I believe that lies lead us to anti-christs, but I do not believe that we can know who is the final anti-christ. My view holds only that the position will be that of the Holy See (AKA Roman pontiff or Pope). The Vatican has members that are involved in peace process with Israel. The Vatican owns much property in Jerusalem and it offers many services to the needy there. We are going to become desperate for a religious, political government to seek to establish peace with the different religions that exist there. The Vatican already has proposals just how to accomplish that so that Christians, Muslims, and Jews can co-exist without all the animosity. This is only a matter of time. The anti-christ will not seize its power...its given its power by us...that is something I think some dont understand. When Christ returns He is the one who seizes power out of the hands of the anti-christ despite the fortress that will be protecting him. The power of the anti-christ is in its deception and that deception is already here. I dont know why so many think that the anti-christ is an obvious stand-out. The devil craftily presents him in a beautiful religious package. The Roman Catholic church claims that the Pope is the successor to Peter the apostle, but yet he allows himself to be revered as Holy. Is that not a sign? We have the deceived ones who give him that reverence and the pompous one who allows it. That is the picture of the near end. Just how much deception will God allow till the end comes? Would it be a surprise to see the final anti-christ come from the richest religion?

"They came out from us, but were not of us"

With love in Christ, Daniel

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I enjoyed your post. Especially the disclaimer at the beginning not wanting to defend your
opinions. I wish more people would write their own stuff and not spend time picking apart others writings.
I would like to ask you about number 2 on your post. Do you think we can know who the final anti-christ is, or could know, or is it just because the time is short that he is here?

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oneinchrist
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Hi everybody,
I would like to share with you all how I believe that the end comes...please dont consider this up for debate, for I am sharing just like the rest of you shared your views.

First of all, I believe that we have already entered great tribulation long ago.

Second, I believe that the position of the final antichrist has already been revealed. It is only a matter of time before he is trusted into Jerusalem in the name of peace. This anti-christ will be a leader for a peacefull co-existence of the 3 world religions. The United Nations and the Vatican army will protect this government.

Third, Christ will return in all glory to take up His church and head to the stronghold of Satan in Jerusalem. He will take out the anti-christ and its supporters. The angels of God will separate the unbelievers from the believers. The devil and his followers will be bound and all the unbelievers will also be bound so as not to harm the believers. Christ will sit on the earthly throne until the appointed time for the devil to be loosed again.

Fourth, the devil will be loosed again to take those unbelievers who have been reserved for him and the battle of armegeddon. The unbelievers are eager to war against Christ and the Saints for they feel confident for they are higher in number and they are going to surround them. As they advance thier armies to fight and they are nearly on the approach with that feeling of destruction a surprise comes just like in the story of Moses at the edge of the Red Sea.

Fifth, God the Father reveals His glory from the heavens as he sends a fire that devours the enemy and sends them into the lake of fire forever.

Sixth, Jesus gives the kingdom back to the Father

Seventh, The New heavens and the new earth is created

P.S. If there is no great trib after the rapture then the coming of Christ signifies the end of God Almighties patience. This is my fear for the unbeliever. Lets pray for those who know not Christ.

With love in Christ, Daniel

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oneinchrist
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Hi Kindgo,
Its nice to meet you. I am not here to prove one end-time belief over another, but what I am here for is to show what could be the effect of a wrong interpretation. I have seen all kinds of debate from both sides, but I am cautious about how serious I consider one side. Just what if there is no additional time on earth after the rapture? Then many procrastinators have been duped into a lie. Who would be accountable for that? Who is willing to be accountable for that?
I dont understand the thinking that all of a sudden all Hell is going to break loose? Do we not see the current deception that is a result of the rejection of the gospel? I see the great tribulation as added time of grace....because that is what it really would be. It would be much better to die a forced physical death than it would be to die a soul death eternally....so lets not think to intimidate others with this view...for these convictions I am not regretful. With love in Christ, Daniel

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Kindgo
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In the Rapture our Lord Jesus gathers His Bride, in whom His spirit dwells, (He who now letteth), from the earth prior to that man of sin being revealed, "2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Please note that the lifting away of believers is NOT the second Advent for Christ does not set foot upon the mount of Olives, we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The Rapture

Matt. 25:1-13
25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


Thess. 4:17-5-6
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel,
and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet
the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail
upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of
darkness.
5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

2 Thess.2:
2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

"Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (1 Cor. 15:51-52)


The Coming of the Lord

Matt. 24:29-31
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall
not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his
elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev. 19:11-16
19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called
Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name
written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen,
white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall
rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty
God.
19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD
OF LORDS.

Zech. 12:10
12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of
grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall
mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in
bitterness for his firstborn.


Zech. 14:4-9
14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the
east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west,
and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and
half of it toward the south.
14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto
Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of
Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
14:7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come
to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward
the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his
name one.

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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oneinchrist
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Hi everybody,

First I would like to point out that I do not believe that our end time view affects our status with God. Although I have seen churches that only permit certain end-time beliefs, I dont believe that the Lord holds this out as a condition for salvation.

There is one thing that does trouble me regarding the "secret rapture" belief. Are we sending the message to the unbelievers that God is allowing this additional time period (great tribulation) to get things right with God? and if this is not the truth, we risk giving them a false hope like people give when they say "Dont worry, a priest will come by your bedside when you are ready to go".

I tell you I believe that we live in a society where people believe that there is no limit to Gods grace. If I was an unbeliever and I was told, "If you miss the first boat, "Thats ok because there is another one coming with a little higher fare"...I'd say "Great ,Im just going to put a little money aside each month for the fare and live it up till it gets here."

But if I was told, "There is only one boat coming, and it has already come, and its docked but Im not sure of its departure time", then I would be more apt to ask "where is this boat so that I may get to it quickly?"

What do you all think about this?

With love in Christ, Daniel

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Betty Lou
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Kindgo

Thank you for sharing this. I appreciate it.
betty

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Kindgo
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Author Topic: The Rapture Is Not The Second Coming
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posted October 07, 2005 11:01 AM
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64 Reasons The Rapture Of The Church Is Not The Second Coming Of Christ To Reign On Earth
Those who do not believe in the biblical doctrine of the Rapture of the Church, usually argue that there is only one Coming or return of Christ to the earth to judge the nations. Some hold that this One Coming is simply for taking the believers home to heaven, with a judgment to follow.

Those who hold to the Rapture of the Church are far more careful to observe what the Bible says in context. They can observe the simple fact that there is a difference between up and down. Believers go up to meet Christ in the air. The Second Coming is indeed truly a “coming” of the Lord down to the earth physically to establish the millennial kingdom promised to the Old Testament prophets.

Below is a list of verses and points, as shown in the Bible, highlighting the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming of the Lord to reign on earth. Some wonder why there is a heated discussion about this issue. It is important for the following reasons:

First, if the Rapture truly is in Scripture, that is enough to make it important. In other words, every doctrine the Lord has given us has a purpose and is important, simply because He has given it to us!

The Rapture is called the Blessed Hope. It promises redemption from the terrible seven year Tribulation so detailed in the book of Revelation.

Generally speaking, those who deny the Rapture of the Church interpret the Bible in a “spiritualized” or “allegorical” way. They also fail to consider “contexts.” They deny certain passages of Scripture in the normal sense. By letting the Bible speak plainly in its teachings to us, we honor the Lord. We take His Word at face value!

Some general rules to note:

Rapture passages are addressed to believers in the body of Christ. They are verses that speak of going directly back or up to the Lord in heaven.

Second Coming passages have to do with the Lord coming down to earth to bless Israel, judge the nations, and rule the earth with a scepter of iron!

Comparison Of Rapture And Second Coming Verses:

Rapture: Christ prepares a place for us and takes us back to heaven. “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:1-3).
Second Coming: Coming to reign and rule in Jerusalem, Christ’s feet touch upon the Mt. of Olives. “In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount will split in its middle” (Zech. 14:4).

Rapture: Christ prepares a place in heaven. “I go to prepare a place for you” (John 14:2).
Second Coming: Christ becomes a ruling king on earth. “The Lord will be king over all the earth” (Zech. 14:9).

Rapture: The Church is with the Lord in heaven. “Where I am, there you may be also” (John 14:3).
Second Coming: The Jewish people are with their king on earth. “And people will live in [Jerusalem], and there will be no more curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security” (Zech. 14:11).

Rapture: Announced by the trumpet of God (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Announced simply by a great trumpet (but not called the trumpet of God) (Matt. 24:31).

Rapture: Those “in Christ” are gathered “to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: The “elect” gathered (of Jews and the nations) (Matt. 24:31) to come before the king on His earthly throne (Matt. 25:31).

Rapture: The Lord descends from heaven with a shout (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: The Lord does not shout (Scripture gives no indication of such).

Rapture: The voice of the archangel is heard (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Many angels sound a great trumpet but their voices are not heard (Matt. 24:31).

Rapture: No sign given for His coming.
Second Coming: A sign is given (Matt. 24:30).

Rapture: Called the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thess. 5:9).
Second Coming: Called the Son of Man. A distinct messianic term used to describe the earthly Davidic king who shall reign in Jerusalem (Matt. 24:30).

Rapture: Comforting words for the Church. The Church will not mourn. “Comfort one another with these words” (1 Thess. 4:18).
Second Coming: The nation of Israel will mourn. “Those who pierced Him will mourn” (Rev. 1;7).

Rapture: The Scriptures do not indicate that the lost of the world will see His Rapture coming.
Second Coming: The entire world will see the Son of Man coming. “All the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky” (Matt. 24:30).

Rapture: The Church saints (those in Christ) will be caught up alive “to be together (with the resurrected Church saints) in the clouds” (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: The Messiah, the Son of Man, comes with the clouds (Matt. 24:30) to gather the elect to the place of His earthly throne (25:31).

Rapture: Christ’s power is not necessarily displayed openly to the world.
Second Coming: He comes “with power and great glory” as the Son of Man to rule on earth (Matt. 24:31).

Rapture: Called the Day of Christ (Phil. 1:6, 10; 2:16). Day of blessing for the believer.
Second Coming: Called the Day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2). Day of judgment for the world, “When they (the world) says ‘Peace and Safety!’ then destruction comes upon them” (v. 3).

Rapture: The Day of the Lord. “That day should not overtake you like a thief” (1 Thess. 5:5).
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord. “Shall come [on them, the world] like a thief” (1 Thess. 5:2).

Rapture: Believers in this Church age will be Raptured out of the Tribulation because they are sons of light, sons of the day (1 Thess. 5:5).
Second Coming: Unbelievers left behind to face the Tribulation (the Day of the Lord) because they are of the night, of the darkness (1 Thess. 5:5).

Rapture: Believers will be Raptured because they are not destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).
Second Coming: Unbelievers will face the Day of the Lord because (implied) they are destined for wrath (1 Thess. 5:9).

Rapture: The Dead “in Christ” are raised (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: No mention of the Dead “in Christ” being raised.

Rapture: The Rapture takes place with no mention of the issue of sin.
Second Coming: The Second Coming of Christ to judge because of the wickedness of the world.

Rapture: No mention of Christ coming to rule on earth.
Second Coming: Mentions that He comes to establish His earthly kingdom (Matt. 25:31-34).

Rapture: No mention of believers “inheriting the kingdom prepared for you” (Matt. 25:34).
Second Coming: The righteous “inherit the kingdom” (Matt. 25:34).

Rapture: Christ does not do battle with His enemies at the Rapture.
Second Coming: Christ does battle with His enemies at His Second Coming (Rev. 19:17-21).

Rapture: Christ does not come to earth as a conquering warrior.
Second Coming: He comes to earth as a conquering warrior (Rev. 19:11-16).

Rapture: He comes as the Head of the Church.
Second Coming: He comes as “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” (Rev. 19:16).

Rapture: No earthly reign takes place.
Second Coming: He reigns for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-5).

Rapture: Those Raptured resurrected are taken up to meet the Lord in the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17).
Second Coming: Those in the resurrection at the beginning of the thousand year kingdom, “will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years” (Rev. 20:6).

Rapture: When the resurrected Church saints, and we the living Church saints, all together are taken up in the clouds, it is said “we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:17). Therefore, when Jesus comes to reign on earth for one thousand years, the Church Age saints will return with Him.
Second Coming: Those resurrected at the beginning of the one thousand year reign are apparently those who died during the great Tribulation (Rev. 20:6).

Rapture: Resurrection and Rapture only for “those in Christ.”
Second Coming: A resurrection for Old Testament saints, that takes place after the “time of distress” (the Tribulation) (Dan. 12:1-2).

Rapture: The unsaved people of the nations are unaffected and unchanged at the Rapture.
Second Coming: The nations are judged and/or blessed when the Messiah comes to reign.

Rapture: The nation of Israel is left unchanged when the Rapture takes place.
Second Coming: The nation of Israel is gathered, judged, and the righteous Jews inter kingdom blessing.

Rapture: No herald goes before to announce the Rapture.
Second Coming: Elijah comes to announce the coming of the Messiah (Mal. 4:5).

Rapture: Can happen at any moment.
Second Coming: Comes at the end of the seven year Tribulation.

Rapture: Not before revealed that Paul had to reveal (1 Thess. 4:13). That’s why Paul says he must tell believers about the Rapture so that they would not be ignorant of the fact.
Second Coming: Throughly revealed in Old Testament promises and by Christ in the Gospels.

Rapture: Called a “mystery,” something not before revealed (1 Cor. 15:51).
Second Coming: The Second Coming is a well known fact taught throughout the Old Testament prophets.

Rapture: Believers are changed (1 Cor. 15:51).
Second Coming: Believers are not said to be changed, that is, those who believed during the Tribulation and are alive to enter the kingdom when the Messiah comes.

Rapture: Before the Rapture, the believers are called those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Those believing who are in the Tribulation (Rev. 6-19) are not called “Church saints” nor “those in Christ.”

Rapture: Before the Rapture, the believers are called those “in Christ” (1 Thess. 4:16).
Second Coming: Both Jew and Gentile who enter the kingdom in their natural body are never called “the Church” nor “those in Christ.”

Rapture: When the Rapture takes place those in Christ are “changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:51-52).
Second Coming: Though the Second Coming happens quickly, the event is still pictured as something that unfolds over (even) a short period of time. A sign in heaven is given, an earthly gathering takes place, both Jews and Gentile mourn at His coming, He steps onto the Mt. of Olives, He enters the city of Jerusalem.

Rapture: When the Rapture and/or the resurrection of “those in Christ” takes place, the believer is given “the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ” over the issue of death (1 Cor. 15:57).
Second Coming: When the Second Coming takes place, Christ comes as the victorious king and general. Following the kingdom and the Great White Throne Judgment, certainly all saints of all the ages past are given eternal life. But this is not mentioned as such at the Second Coming.

Rapture: The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ for His own, the Church (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must first intervene. Church believers, then, should look for signs. But they are not told to.

Rapture: Creation is unchanged.
Second Coming: Creation is changed by the blessings of the kingdom (Isa. 65:25). “The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox, … They shall do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain, says the Lord.”

Rapture: At the time of the Rapture, or before, there is no indication that the Church saints will see the antichrist or the “power, signs, and false wonders” of Satan (2 Thess. 2:8-9).
Second Coming: After the Rapture and sometime before the Second Coming of Christ, the antichrist will “display himself as being God” in the temple (2 Thess. 2:4; 8-9).

Rapture: The Rapture is not the Day of the Lord which holds terror for the world.
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord is a terrible event that the believers in the Church do not fear. “Do not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed … to the effect that the day of the Lord has come” (2 Thess. 2:1-2).

Rapture: The “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him” is not the Second Coming (2 Thess. 2:1).
Second Coming: The Day of the Lord is “a coming” to earth, not our being gathered to heaven (2 Thess. 2:2).

Rapture: Christ is not said to destroy the antichrist “with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).
Second Coming: Christ destroys the antichrist at His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).

Rapture: The Rapture is not called the Second Coming.
Second Coming: This is virtually called the Second Coming in Hebrews 9:28. Christ “shall appear a “Second time” for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Rapture: In the Rapture “we” are “caught up” into the clouds (1 Thess. 4:17). “Caught up” in Greek means to suddenly “snatch, jerk away, remove quickly.”
Second Coming: This is not said of the Second Coming.

Rapture: For those who are now looking for the Rapture, a hope is given and causes a moral purification (1 John 3:2-3).
Second Coming: This is not said of those looking for the Second Coming, though that is a glorious event in itself!

Proofs of the Imminency of the Rapture

Imminency means that Paul taught that the Rapture could happen at any time to those to whom he was writing. The key to Rapture passages is Paul’s use of “we, you, us.” In other words believers now are to look for this catching away! (Sometimes these pronouns are not in the English Bible versions but they are implied in the grammar of the verbs Paul uses.)

The “you, we, us” passages addressed to the body of Christ, the Church saints

John 14:1-3
I go to prepare a place for you.
I will receive you to Myself.
Where I am, there you may be also.

James 5:7-9
[You] strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
[You] behold, the judge is standing right at the door.

1 Thess. 1:9-10
You wait for His Son from heaven.
Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess. 2:17-19
You [our hope], in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming.

1 Thess. 3:13
That [He may] establish your hearts … before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints.

1 Thess. 4:13-18
We who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds. We shall always be with the Lord.
You comfort one another with these words.

1 Thess. 5:1-11
You are not in darkness, that the day [of the Lord] should overtake you like a thief.
You are all sons of light and sons of day.
We are not of night nor of darkness.
But since we are of the day, let us be sober.
God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation (deliverance) through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 5:23
May the Lord sanctify you … without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thess. 2:1-2
With regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.
[You] be not quickly shaken … to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

1 Tim. 6:14
You keep the commandment … until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 15:51-52
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.
The dead in Christ will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Phil. 3:20-21
Our citizenship is in heaven.
We eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.
[Christ] will transform the body of our humble state (or humiliated body).

Titus 2:13
[We are] looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.

1 John 2:28
We may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

1 John 3:2-3
We know that, when He appears, we shall be like Him, because we shall see Him just as He is.
Everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

A Key Passage: 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10

The Thessalonian church was “serving” and “waiting for God’s Son from heaven.” (They were not just serving; they were not just waiting! They were doing both!)

“Jesus who ‘rescues’ us away from the wrath (that is certainly) coming” (Greek)

--------------------
Watcher

--------------------
God bless,
Kindgo

Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.

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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
Those of us who are followers of the Lord Jesus will not see the "Wrath of God" as it does not occur until near the end of the "Great Tribulation" after the Millennial Kingdom and just before GOD destroys this Earth and creates the New Earth and heavens (space - NOT Heaven).

The Rapture is described in Rev.4.The tribulation and the wrath of God occur almost immediately after the saints are removed.

Rev. 5 speaks about the Lamb holding a scroll in his right hand, which was sealed with seven seals. As the seals are separately broken we see one introduces the anti-christ, another seal takes peace from this earth, yet another represents the shortage of food.

Rev. 6:12 I watched as the Lamb broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake. The sun became as dark as black cloth, and the moon became as red as blood. 13 Then the stars of the sky fell to the earth like green figs falling from a tree shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky was rolled up like a scroll, and all of the mountains and islands were moved from their places.

15 Then everyone—the kings of the earth, the rulers, the generals, the wealthy, the powerful, and every slave and free person—all hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 And they cried to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to survive?”


Right after the Lamb Breaks the Seventh Seal, the seven angels, with seven trumpets, prepare to blow their mighty blasts, with more wrath being poured onto the earth, as the angels blow each trumpet.

The Great Tribulation occurs three and a half years into the tribulation. At this time the devil will enter the anti-christ with great power, with more carnage to follow, along with the mark of the beast.

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The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by Good NewsforAll:
quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
Have you guys looked around the world lately. Who's to say we are not now in the tribulation? There are "...wars and rumors of wars..." "...famines..." "...earthquakes in many places..." and just about everything the Bible predicted for the tribulation.

I don't think so. Have you read the book of Revelation? God's wrath certainly isn't being poured out as yet.

We are just experiencing birth pains of what is to come.

Mark 13:8 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in many parts of the world, as well as famines. But this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

Those of us who are followers of the Lord Jesus will not see the "Wrath of God" as it does not occur until near the end of the "Great Tribulation" after the Millennial Kingdom and just before GOD destroys this Earth and creates the New Earth and heavens (space - NOT Heaven).

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In His Service,
Bob Allen

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corriee
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One of the best reason for being pre-trib was given to me "tongue in cheek" (as a joke of sorts) but it had a real ring of truth to me.
It goes like this:
One reason God will take the church out before the tribulation is because during that time He will again deal with Israel and He does not need nor want any help from the church.
That is one reason why I think the pre-trib view is correct. There are others also.

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Betty Lou
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Some people believe that Enoch represents the Church and Noah the people of Israel. God took Enoch out of the earth before the flood and brought Noah through the flood.
The Bible makes it clear that there is a difference from troubles and of the time of the tribulation. The tribulation will be a time, when God pours out His wrath on the earth. We are the Bride of Christ. The groom does not beat up His Bride. The tribulation is a time to awake the people of Israel to the truth of Jesus Christ. They will accept the anti-Christ as the true Messiah, but when he turns on them, they will awake from their sleep and God will provide a Haven for them. The tribulation is also a time of punishment to those who take the mark and serve the anti-Christ.
No where in the Bible does it warn Christians to look out for the anti-Christ, instead we are told over and over to look for our blessed hope, which is the rapture.
betty

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Aaron
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Daniel 12:1 "But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered."

Right. Just like this delivered:

Exodus 12:23 "..that you shall say, 'It is the Passover sacrifice of the Lord, who passed over the houses of the children of Israel in Egypt when He struck the Egyptians and delivered our households.'"

To read just before this passage the Lord's people were delivered but remained in the midst of the terror.

"Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Pick out and take lambs for yourselves according to your families, and kill the Passover lamb. 22 And you shall take a bunch of hyssop, dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until morning. 23 For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians; and when He sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer to come into your houses to strike you."

Aaron

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artm
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Praise the Lord. Tribulation and great tribulation are two different things.

In this world you shall have tribulation.

Matthew 24:21 declares, " For then shall be " Great Tribulation " such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, No, Nor ever shall be."

Great tribulation speaks of that time,When the Church has been caught away( Rapture ).

The Word of God tells us that Jesus is coming for those who are " Watching ".

If one is not Watching,Maybe they won't go.

Pre-trib all the way. Art.

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sevenlamps
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One additional comment on tribulation. The book of Daniel also describes some endtime events and in chapter 12 Michael the archangel of God's people stands up to protect them

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Don't grieve the Holy Spirit

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sevenlamps
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Thanks Daniel. I have a catholic answer bible that supposedly gives the catholic explanation on many things they believe. The infallibility of the pope is based on 1 Tim 4:1. However I see nothing in that verse that confirms that and in verse 4 it seems to refute that. Their defintion of infallible also states that it doesn't mean the pope is errorless but is protected by God from making bad doctrine. I'm still trying to figure that one out(chuckle). As for THE tribulation, in Matt 24 wars and rumors of wars were given at the beginning of the chapter making them more like birth pangs with an expected tribulation coming soon. Also tribulation is referred to in some places in the old testament as Jacob's troubles. Also much of the tribulation is caused by physical destructions(probably poured out by God similar to the plagues of Egypt) A great earthquake,drought,etc. Back to the pope now, only in the last century have protestants quit calling the papacy the antichrist. For many centuries of continues persecution the protestants held the stance that the papacy was the antichrist as one of their main pillars. The other main pillar was justifcation by faith - which is what was bringing much of the persecution from the papacy. If any say that Christ is not come in the flesh they are of antichrist. That is what the bible says. The catholic doctrine gets around this by claiming Mary was also born of a virgin, therefore the birth of Jesus was entirely divine. It is very subltle but satisfies the requirement that they officially deny that Jesus has come in the flesh.

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Don't grieve the Holy Spirit

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WKUHilltopper
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This has been a very interesting thread...
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WildB
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Google harpazo and have fun.

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That is all.....

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arnsworth
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let's not forget about the old testament and the flood of Noah as a type of the end times

the flood is God's wrath.
Noah and his family are the remanent preserved through God's wrath.
and Enoch is the church, removed prior to God's wrath.

"So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him." Gen 5:23-24

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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
Have you guys looked around the world lately. Who's to say we are not now in the tribulation? There are "...wars and rumors of wars..." "...famines..." "...earthquakes in many places..." and just about everything the Bible predicted for the tribulation.

I don't think so. Have you read the book of Revelation? God's wrath certainly isn't being poured out as yet.

We are just experiencing birth pains of what is to come.

Mark 13:8 Nation will go to war against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in many parts of the world, as well as famines. But this is only the first of the birth pains, with more to come.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


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Chaplain Bob
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Have you guys looked around the world lately. Who's to say we are not now in the tribulation? There are "...wars and rumors of wars..." "...famines..." "...earthquakes in many places..." and just about everything the Bible predicted for the tribulation. I believe the next thing we will see is the Lord returning to set up his Millennial Kingdom at which time it will be the lost who will be "raptured" (Ps. 37) and kept wherever the Lord wants to keep them until judgement day. Believers will enjoy a thousand year reign here on this Earth. At the end of that time the Believers will be taken from the Earth, the lost and Satan returned for the Great Tribulation and at the end of that time the judgements take place, the Earth is destroyed, the New Earth and New Jerusalem is created and we will spend eternity with our Lord. So when Jesus returns and there is a rapture if you're a Believer and not in it don't be surprised.

There's something for you to chew on for awhile.

--------------------
In His Service,
Bob Allen

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oneinchrist
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Thank you all for responding to my questions. I agree with you all who say that the believers will be saved from the wrath of God... but Im not so sure about being taken out of tribulation. In Matthew 24 vs. 15-28 Jesus speaks of times of great tribulation and then in vs. 29 -31 Jesus tells us of His return after the tribulation of those days. In my bible it shows about 8 different interpretations of Revelation. They all include the second coming or rapture, but they differ in sequence of events. I think that I will agree with Jesus before I put my trust in any one interpretation. Interesting to note that not only does Jesus speak of times of great tribulation and distress, He also says that it will be as in the days of Noah. Maybe the differences of opinion on end times lies in what people view as great tribulation. Could it be that it had begun long ago? We have lived our life in a fairly peaceful nation here in the U.S. but look at the horrors that have occured around the world over our history.....I know that being the fallible human that I am that I can only speculate on certain things. There are reasons that we are not given the times and seasons of things and I respect the Lords' reason for such. Really the truth is that we need to be prepared for either way, whether pre-trib or post-trib. Even though my tendency is towards post-trib, I see no reason to debate over it. I also believe that its possible we may have seen the position of the antichrist (opinion though) as the Holy See (aka the Pope) They claim to be the successors to Peter the apostle, but they allow themselves to be revered as Holy. What did Peter say? "Stand up, I myself also am a man! Now if this was not all that important the angel in Heaven would not have said the same thing to John. I believe that the anti-christ is a camaflouge to the truth...very religious, but willing to compromise the truth to appease the masses: and given political power and strength. They are trusted that they comes in the name of peace, but their deception is that they abuse the Word of God. What could be worse than the lie? If the lie beautifully packaged is enough to deceive the world, what more trickery does Satan have to have up his sleeve?.Im not sure if you all are aware of this, but did you know that the Holy See is considered to hold the order of Melchisidek by its peers. Christ was the only one qualified for that priesthood. Hebrews is clear on that...for it is an eternal prieshood. Well, once again very opinionated on this subject, but I do consider the possibility that not only we could have entered great tribulation long ago, but that the position of the final anti-christ may have been revealed. This could mean that according to the words of Paul we have already entered apostacy, and falling away...and we are much nearer to the great and glorious day of our Lord. With love in Christ, Daniel
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Good NewsforAll
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quote:
Originally posted by Rogg:
No problem favor minded, I'm glad to have opened your eyes.
My only hope is those that believe they will be whisked away, when persecution is knocking at the door, do not lose faith because of their expectations.
Too bad those being martyred for Jesus in other countries aren't as deserving as the proud affluent Americans that believe they will escape what is to come.
John 15:20
20."Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Remember this: Persecution is NOT Gods wrath.

Persecution is a little tap on the wrist compared to the wrath which will be spilled out over the earth during the tribulation. We have never seen the wrath of God unleashed in our lifetime. We cannot even fathom what it will entail; it will be like the earth has never known. The Holocaust will look like a Sunday School picnic.

Because of the mighty force of the anti-christ and God's release of the seven plagues, sorry but I know God, in his bountiful grace and wisdom, won't allow the church to be a witness to it.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

--------------------
The Pharisees tell us what not to do. Jesus tells us what to do.
Romans 10:15 As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


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TEXASGRANDMA
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Rogg, I believe with all my heart in the pre-trib rapture, but I have known sorrow and pain.
I have had 2 friends and my sister commit suicide.
I have had my husband lose his job for no fault of his own and we lost our new house of 3 months. He was vindicated and got his job back, but we had already lost the house.
If I am arrested tomorrow for believing in Jesus, Jesus will give me the grace to stand. My faith is in Jesus, there is no other that can save me.
I have more loved ones in Heaven then on earth.
Like Paul said, If I live I am in Christ, if I die I am in Christ.
Just because I believe in the pre-trib rapture does not make me think that life will be a piece of cake. It has been in the past and it will not be in the future.
But I am looking for the blessed hope. I was at Sizzlers just yesterday and a man I had never met before was talking to me about Jesus coming back soon. Christians can feel it in their bones that the rapture is soon.
I read today about how we will know the signs for Jesus coming back for us. He is coming soon. Praise His name.
betty

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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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Rogg
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No problem favor minded, I'm glad to have opened your eyes.
My only hope is those that believe they will be whisked away, when persecution is knocking at the door, do not lose faith because of their expectations.
Too bad those being martyred for Jesus in other countries aren't as deserving as the proud affluent Americans that believe they will escape what is to come.


John 15:20
20."Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.

Remember this: Persecution is NOT Gods wrath.

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Favor Minded
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Amen Sister Betty!

Rogg says -
quote:
Exactly, read what is says
Wow! Excellent prophetic interpretation. Thanks!

Yeah - It isn't about who is right or wrong - The Word is quite clear and has been taught since the beginning.

Jesus taught it, Luke taught it, Paul taught it. It is very clear the church WILL be removed in order to make room for the son of perdition.

What is funny is that EVERY other idea regarding the rapture that is not pre trib does one thing very much against the Word - It teaches and assumes that they know one thing for sure - Jesus isn't coming, yet...

Pre trib is the ONLY one that retains the doctrine of imminency, something critical to Pauls teachings -

It is very easy to disprove any other teaching -

The Word is very clear.

Luke 21
34"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like a trap. 35For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

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Matthew 24:36
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

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TEXASGRANDMA
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Favorminded,
We may not have always agreed about everything, which is okay, I don't always agree with my own hubby, but we all 3 believe in the pre-trib rapture.
We are moving this month and hubby said he will not go to any Church where the pre-trib rapture is not taught.
God bless you and keep you. I have decided not to argue with those who reject our blessed hope. I have my faith secure in knowing that Jesus will not pour out his wrath on the Church. Like someone said a groom doesn't beat up the bride.
You were here a couple of years ago when I struggled with this issue and you know how the Lord Jesus brought peace in my heart that I could trust His Word.
betty

--------------------
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles

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