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Author
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Topic: (Moved) Why do Catholic Confess to a Preist?
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
Oh, I am sorry. This just makes me want to cry. Pio, please do you not see what blasphemy that is. IF Mary had been born without sin, then Mary would have been able to do what Christ did. This teaching undermins the work that GOd did to manifest himself.. the only living one that is without sin in human flesh that he could redeem the world and beget us all of Himself. This was HIS plan from before the foundation of the world.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Until Christ was raised and glorified, Christ ALONE was begotten of God. Now we are also begotten of God if we be born again..
1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
To teach that Mary was born without sin is contary to the scripture and it is to make her equal with Christ before Christ was manifest, died and risen! That is blasphemous!
Christ ALONE was born without sin because HE is GOD manifest in the flesh in the image of sinful flesh and HE alone was abel to pay the price of sin because of it and be risen from the dead without sin.
Mary inherited sin from her earthly father and he from his all the way back to Adam.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
But in teaching that Pio the Catholic Church contradicts the word of God...
Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Mary is the decendant of men and Mary was born with sin; Mary needed a savior as much as you or I needed a savior.
ONLY THE BEGOTTEN OF THE FATHER can be without sin.
The Bible does not say that Mary was full of Grace. It says this of Christ alone...
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
pleres charis
This is what the angel Gabriel said to Mary:
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
(charitoo)
Lu 1:28 And the messenger having come in unto her, said, ‘Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’
The Bible says she found "charis" with God...
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
This is the same grace that is given to all believers...
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace <5485> according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
It is the same grace by which we are all elected...
Ro 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace <5485>.
It is the very grace that comes through Christ...
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace <5485> and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pio
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posted
The Catholic Church teahes that Mary was born without the stain of Original Sin, and lived a sinless life, This comes primarily from the Angel Garbriel's words to mary, "Full of Grace" To have Grace is to be in union with God, and when we sin we pull away from Grace, So when Mary was FULL of Grace she was innocent of sin.
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Eden
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posted
Hi, Pio.
You said:
For a Catholic the Arc of the Covenant was a kind of type of Mary. Which gives her a special role in the plan of salvation. Salvation does not come FROM mary, but without mary's fiat Salvation would not have happened.
Eden here:
That bolded part I 100% disagree with. God is able to raise up even of these stones children unto Abraham:
Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
But think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say to you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mary will forever be spoken of as the mother of our Lord Jesus, but beyond that she is a sinner just like us who needs to accept Jesus's death as on her behalf, else even Mary would have to die for her sins when Jesus comes again.
But be sure of this, that God can of these stones raise children up unto Abraham, including more Marys.
However, I will grant you that Mary was faithful and had good divine vision when Gabriel appeared before Mary suddenly, unlike Zacharias who was made mute for his unbelief, though Zacharias was still used. But Mary was faithful and believing from the start, and that IS her honor indeed. (But Mary is still a sinner just like you and me.)
Be blessed, Pio.
Eden
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
The Bible speaks of the Queen of Heaven, but not in a positive light and not with regard to Mary, mother of Jesus of Nazareth.
Jer 7:18 The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
Jer 44:17 But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.
Jer 44:18 But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.
Jer 44:19 And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?
Jer 44:25 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying; Ye and your wives have both spoken with your mouths, and fulfilled with your hand, saying, We will surely perform our vows that we have vowed, to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her: ye will surely accomplish your vows, and surely perform your vows
There is no example in the Bible of Jesus or any of the Apostles praying to any one but the Father or teaching anyone to pray to anyone but the Father. Further, when the disciples asked Jesus to teach them to pray Jesus specifically said we pray to the Father...
1 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
Jesus said that we were to teach what HE taught...
Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen
Jesus said we pray to the Father. We are Christians and we are supposed to do as Christ did and Christ prayed to the Father ALONE.
Php 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.
Ro 15:30 Now I beseech you, brethren, for the Lord Jesus Christ’s sake, and for the love of the Spirit, that ye strive together with me in your prayers to God for me;
Prayers are a form of worship..
Re 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
It does not matter what we think or how seemly sound our reasoning about our traditions, when our traditions are contrary to the scripture our traditions must be put aside and the scripture upheld.
The fact here is that God's people pray to GOD. Only the pagan and the heathen prays to one who is not GOD.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pio
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posted
For a Catholic the Arc of the Covenant was a kind of type of Mary. Which gives her a special role in the plan of salvation. Salvation does not come FROM mary, but without mary's fiat Salvation would not have happened.
Mary is the Queen Mother. David and the other Old Testament kings sat their mothers on the throne next to them as Queen. Catholics understand Mary to be the woman crowned Queen of heaven in the book of revelations.
At the wedding of Cana Jesus was asked to turn the water into wine by Mary, He didn't want to, because it was not yet his time, but he complied with the request of his Mother anyway.
I agree that sadly SOME people do show Mary too much veneration. However when people elevate her to the level of God that goes beyond Catholic teaching.
We pray to Mary, because we hold her as very important. mary is not the only one we pray to, we do pray to many others. I myself hold a strong devotion to St. Pio of Pietrelcina. By Catholic teaching we can pray to any person who is part of the communion of the Saints. Any time we look to mary or any other saint our focus still is on Jesus. Jesus is the Source and Summit of the Catholic faith.
I hope this clairifies your questions.
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ahar
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Member # 5810
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posted
Then why would Mary's prayer be any better than anyone else's?
I suppose it is down to interpretation: I don't think that Mary was the 'Mother' of God in the way that we look at it. Although Jesus was born from Mary, she was not his 'Mother' in a biological human way.
Yes, we can ask for other people to pray for us, but why Mary? Why not someone else? She's surely the same as any other?
I think that despite what you are saying, a level of veneration that is at least equal to God can be seen in many Catholic Churches. In South and Central American catholic churches (and I've been to lots on my travels) Mary is at the top of the alter. There are far more icons, prayers, statues and mentions of Mary than anything else. In many towns at religous festivals Mary is given the place of honour on the floats that they parade through the streets.
One source of this is the original beliefs in an 'Earth Mother', Pachamamma. Because of the place of Mary within the Catholic church, it seems that veneration of Mary has been allowed to get to the level that it has to fit in with local culture. Given that the Catholic church works in a very hierarchical way, the only way I can see that this has been left to continue is that it does not contradict the teachings of the church.
I use catholic churches in S & C America because I have visted a lot in my travels there, far more than anywhere else. Lots of interesting historical stuff in churches in Latin America - have a look if you go, I can recommend north and central Chile especially ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Pio
unregistered
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posted
No, I do not think it is a wrong way to pray.
unfortunately I can not quote from my scriptures to prove it, because those scriptures are banned here.
So for the non-scriptural answer...
Is it wrong for You to pray for me?
Is someone who is dead in Christ really dead?
The meaning of the word to Pray is to ask, think of your old english language when in a court room someone might say listen I pray ye. They are saying I ask you to listen.
So is it wrong for me to ASK you to pray for me?
I'm assuming that your answer to all three of these questions would be "no"
At least for me the answer is no.
So If I can Ask you to pray for me, then in other terms I am no less than praying to you to pray for me. To pray does not equate to Worship. This concept is misapplication of years of Histroy by a mondern idea.
If someone who is dead in Christ is not truely dead then they are ALIVE and part of the communion of the Saints (ALL Christians are part of the communion of the Saints). So just because someone is physically dead we can still ask of them prayers.
"Holy Mother of God pray for us we are sinners" is completely appropriate. We must undestand that Anything that is done through a Saint is still TO Jesus, and any response is FROM Jesus. Just because God chooses to use tools in the form of the Saints does not take away the fact that we know who is doing the real work.
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Pio,
um you seem to truely not understand that Catholics 1-Do NOT have a goddess, dispite misconceptions about Mary, True Catholics DO NOT WORSHIP Mary. I will grant however that some people who CALL themselves Catholics DO worship her however.
Second the Priesthood is not completly celebate, the Roman Rite is the ONLY Rite that does have celebate priest. Further the question of celebacy was something talked about by even Paul.
quote:
becauseHElives
So you would say this is a false way to pray?
"Lord, save us, we perish!" "Holy Mother of God pray for us, or we are lost!"
or
"Lord, save us, we perish!" "Holy Mother of God pray for us sinners!"
or any variation there of using the name of Mary in the prayer.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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