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Author
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Topic: Jihad- Is it capturing your state
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WKUHilltopper
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Member # 5472
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posted
quote:
WKUHilltopper: I can post verses from the bible out of context if you want but that won't prove anything either. For example:
Psalm 14:1
"..."There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good"
whereas the whole verse is
"The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."
[/QB]
Problem is, these aren't out of context. Here's the full passages below. It's pretty easy to fiqure out what it's saying. If this is incorrect, please educate me. Otherwise it's pretty clear to me.
Surah 8:12. (Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes."
Surah 5:51. O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Auliyâ' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but Auliyâ' to one another. And if any amongst you takes them as Auliyâ', then surely he is one of them. Verily, Allâh guides not those people who are the Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust).
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."
All sounds pretty clear to me and with in the context of my point.
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
ahar:
quote:
rather than bombarding people with leaflets and quotes from scripture from the outset.
Are you that ignorant or stupid to think that's how we witness? - come on now GET REAL.
If that's how you think, then ANY further discussion is POINTLESS.
And in your approach, have you EVER told them the Gospel? or do you just give YOUR supposed "Christian" (as opposed to Scriptural) view on a topic?
If you just "dirrect them to an Alpha course" that's a TOTAL COP-OUT
You lack Christ's Love and Compassion and let fear rule instead.
It's Christians like you that are allowing so many to walk right into the gates oh hell.
And you try to say you have Christian "love"
TRUE Christian love cares about the SOUL more than the body - the body is a MEANS to the soul - the body perishes, but the soul is ETERNAL.
"Let me put a band aid on your scratch but I'm going to ignore the internal bleeding taking place" SOME help.
I'll tell you, I have LOTS of compassion for lost and deceived people,
but I zip-point-zero compassion towards "churchy" people that don't Christ's work, but are out there critisizing those who do - Lead; Follow; or get OUT OF THE WAY.
The number one reason people I speak to give for ignoring Christ is the way that they see people who call themselves Christians behave. The most effective way I have found for me to start people on the road to faith and repentance is through personal relationships and example.
The story you gave of helping those girls is a GREAT example of Christians practicing what they preach and is a great tool for evangelism. It is not true that evangelism only takes the form of approaching strangers and praying for the holy spirit to hit them like a freight train - some of the most effective ways take time and effort, and work slowly - as not everyone will have a conversion like Saul's.
Regarding pointing people towards the Alpha Course, what does it matter if I had over to someone better and more experienced to me after a while - if the outcome is the same then you think that God cares who 'seals the deal'? You have never suggested that someone go speak to a Pastor or someone like that for further discussion? Is Evangelism a one person deal that you 'fail' at if you can't do everything for everyone?
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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freddy05
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posted
Well... as I have said before (I think 4 times now)... if you are really interested in my personal life, start a "Faith of Freddy" thread and post questions there rather than thread jacking this one. Which I think we already have.
So back to the topic at hand. No, Jihad has not taken over my state. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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freddy05
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
The alpha course is man-made of the flesh, and using it is a cop-out method.
Catholics use the alpha course, so it shows how man-made it is.
You have NO-CLUE dude, you are so hard-hearted toward TRUE Christian compassion.
To think and suggest that I would give a can of soup PRETENDING to care.
I don't like to brag on what God has done thru me.
My wife and I just spent 7 days pouring ourselves into 2 17 year old gang girls, and a 27 year old gangbanger whom is on work release (reports back to jail each evening)
We fed them, gave them bedding and stuff.
Let them use our house and shower, even helping one of them get rid of lice.
We spent over 120 on gas helping them.
So LOOK IN THE MIRROR dude before you start telling TRUE Chritian peolple that their hearts are wrong.
Maybe it's time to take your Christian mask OFF, get humble before God, and GET REAL.
Oh I can feel the love of Christ here! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Since ALPHA is so terrible, I hope in heaven one day you have the chance of talking to the hoards of people that got there through the ALPHA program and you can let them know the errors of their ways.
And I don`t know specifically what you said to those girls... but I really hope you showed unconditional love and genuine interest in their lives before starting in on your sermons. And I hope your sermons were laced with more compassion than you show on these boards. Because I am sick of talking to people who are so turned off by Christianity because of people who shoved scripture and sermons down their throat before really knowing and understanding them as humans.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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freddy05
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
You have 55 posts Freddy and I cannot find one which lifts-up the name of Jesus, or which honors Him.
Apparently you and I have different perspectives. I consider encouraging behavior in line with the example of Christ to be quite uplifting.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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freddy05
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Member # 5854
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Well you CAN'T bring people to Yahweh's Kingdom WITHOUT Scripture.
How do YOU think bringing people into Yahweh's Kingdom should be done - TRY to back it up with Scripture if you can.
Unfortunately, simply quoting words from an ancient book to someone who has no understanding of it is usually not going to do anything.
A person who has no Christian background will more likely respond to a genuine friendship (not simply handing them a cup of soup and acting interested for 10 minutes before starting a sermon) than they will quotes from the Bible.
Not sure how familiar you are with the Alpha course... But its loaded with scripture.
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Caretaker
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posted
Amen Walt!!!!
You have 55 posts Freddy and I cannot find one which lifts-up the name of Jesus, or which honors Him. Not one post with scripture, not one post in praise of His redemption or in concern with the salvation of lost souls.
Your only posts are adversarial in both spirit and content.
Do you follow the Lord Jesus Christ, and honor Him in your heart and in your life?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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freddy05
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
quote:
rather than bombarding people with leaflets and quotes from scripture from the outset.
Are you that ignorant or stupid to think that's how we witness? - come on now GET REAL.
If that's how you think, then ANY further discussion is POINTLESS.
If you just "dirrect them to an Alpha course" that's a TOTAL COP-OUT
You lack Christ's Love and Compassion and let fear rule instead.
It's Christians like you that are allowing so many to walk right into the gates oh hell.
I have been a part of many mission trips and outings with Baptist churches, evangelical mission organizations, trips with the Christian College I went to... and yes the prefered method on most of the trips was "bombarding people with leaflets and quotes from scripture from the outset". Most street missionaries I have encountered in the States and other countries has been the same method.
There`s no way of knowing for sure, but I`d be willing to bet that the methods you are promoting are turned millions of people away from the cross over the last century. I can`t count the number of people I`ve met in my life who have NO interest in anything spiritual simply because they are so annoyed with people acting like they care about them or acting interested in them only to start quoting scripture at them after 10 minutes.
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freddy05
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
As long as the Islamic community harbors the clerics which preach hatred and martyredom to thousands, then the entire community is culpable. As long as the Islamic community harbors the Jihadists among them then the entire community is culpable.
This isn`t bordering or leaning towards racism. It is blantant racism. Your ignorance of Islam is understandable, but what is sad is when ignorant people take action. I don`t operate on people like a doctor, cause I know I lack the knowledge and understanding necessary to do it correctly.
Do you have any idea how many different "denominations" (sub beliefs, sects, disagreements, etc....) there are in Islam? Do you realize many people claim Islam by culture but have little or know practice in their faith?
You have just as much in common with the Lords Resistance Army in Unganda as many Muslims have in common with terrorists.
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Caretaker
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posted
Actually Andy they were targeting as many as 10 planes.
A Muslim is not a Brother or a Sister, for it is only through the Spirit of adoption through Christ Jesus our Lord that we become children of God and of the Body of Christ.
No Muslim, no Jew, no atheist, no pagan, no infidel, no heretic, can be my Brother or Sister in Christ.
As long as the Islamic community harbors the clerics which preach hatred and martyredom to thousands, then the entire community is culpable. As long as the Islamic community harbors the Jihadists among them then the entire community is culpable.
The true face of Islam is to be found in those countries where Islam is the theocracy. It is in Sudan where Christians and animists are slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands by the government sanctioned militia, and their wives and daughters sold into slavery. You probably don't see much about Sudan on the BBC. It might not be tolerant of Muslim sensibilities.
As long as Islam provides safe-haven for Jihadists, and clerics who preach Jihad, and teachers who teach Jihad in Muslim schools, then the face of Islam is the face of terrorism.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
Caretaker - in answer to your question and in light of the current events in the UK, it seems it takes precisely 11 people to bomb a plane (11 more in custody awaiting charges). Caretaker, you should not condemn someone on the actions of another person. Should people condemn you for the murderous actions of people calling themselves Christians in Africa? Of course not, so you shouldn't do it to anyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
It doesn't matter if the koran proclaims peace instead of hate, it's still a deception of satan.
It's not about "being good", it's about KNOWING the one true living God; Yahweh.
If a book promotes "good" but points in ANY other direction than Y'shua as the Way and Source - it's EVIL, no matter HOW "good" it makes one behave.
Never suggested any different. My point was and still is that there is much less love shown on these boards for our muslim brothers and sisters than there is for other non-believers. Some would call that predjudice with leanings towards racism.
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
Ahar, you say you interact with and have love for Muslims - HOW is that love manifested towards them?
Do you ever tell them about Jesus, and what he can do for them?
Is it love to let someone continue in deception and false religion?
Of course. I tend to take a longer term approach to this, rather than bombarding people with leaflets and quotes from scripture from the outset. I've found, for me, the most effective way of talking to people about God is to let them know I am a christian and initially leave it at that. When some debate comes up, I give a christian view point, and I've found that generally people will then approach me with a question, or even just wanting to argue that God doesn't exist. This then gives the perfect opportunity to talk to them about Christianity and what it means to be a Christian. They tend to be more open in this way and more willing to listen to what I have to say. I'm not saying that this is right way, but I've found it to the most effective for me through experience and best complement to my personality and way of speaking. If people are really interested then I can direct them to the Alpha Course - something that churches in the UK organise to talk to people about Christianity which can provide the next step in terms of repentance and asking for salvation.
quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
And YES I HAVE witnessed to muslims, and even had a couple in a Bible study I was leading while I was in Cote-d'Ivoire (Africa) doing work for a cell-phone company.
Fantastic! A girl I knew from school lived in Cote d'ivore (or Ivory Coast in English) going to a boarding school for a while while her parents were missionaries in Ghana (the country just next door)
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wparr:
[QB]
I DON'T hate muslims, I HATE the false religion of satan that has them deceived and enslaved to.
I DON'T hate Osama or the other terrorists - they are just deceived people being used as pawns by satan.
c
Then why don't you come out and say this more often when people are posting throwaway predjudiced comments?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wparr:
[QB]
It seems that you think proclaiming TRUTH is hate, I say letting a lie go unchallanged in LACK of LOVE, and is also a tool of satan.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by wparr:
[QB]
Letting a lie go unchallenged is a lack of love, which is why I am generally unpopular on this board for challenging the lazily held predjudices expressed here.
WKUHilltopper: I can post verses from the bible out of context if you want but that won't prove anything either. For example:
Psalm 14:1
"..."There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good"
whereas the whole verse is
"The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."
An extreme example, but if you are going to post single verses from the Koran (and the last one is from the Hadith rather than the Koran by the looks of the reference) then be prepared to explain exactly where they come from, the context they were written and the widely held understanding of the verse by Muslim scholars.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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WKUHilltopper
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posted
Here's a few more passages from that book of love and peace:
"Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them" (Surah 9:30).
"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them" (Surah 8:12).
"Do not take the Jews and Christians for friends" (Surah 5:51).
"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'" (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176).
Posts: 259 | From: KY | Registered: Feb 2006
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freddy05
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posted
I truly believe that racism is usualy rooted in ignorance, religion, patriotism, or the like. I find it sad when those who spend so much time, money, and other resources on promoting Christianity, make public comments that at worst are blatently racist, or at best simply divide people and put up walls. It is not biblical, its definitely not Christlike.
Muslims, Jews, Christians, Atheists, etc... all have the exact same level of humanity. It would be nice to see a basic level of human respect on boards that claim to follow a religion that emphasizes peace, hope, and love.
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Caretaker
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posted
There were only 500-700 in the group which marched with the signs, but too many for the police to stop, and how many does it take to bomb a school/hospital/airplane/bus, and especially when the Imam's are preaching hate:
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caretaker:
Islam the religion of "peace":
Islamic Protest
My office is opposite the Old Bailey (a famous court building in London) and we've had these people outside protesting with very similar signs when one of their number is on trial inside. Of the thousands and thousands of muslims in London, they are a very very small minority.
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Cheers
Andy
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Caretaker
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posted
Islam the religion of "peace":
Islamic Protest
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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posted
NY Times
LONDON, Aug. 20 — From his home on the northwest edge of this city, Muhamad al-Massari runs a Web site that celebrates the violent death of British and American soldiers. It is visited by tens of thousands of people every day, he said.
Mr. Massari maintains the Arabic-language site, tajdeed.org.uk, in the face of a strict new law aimed at curtailing violent speech and publishing. Just last week, the Council of Holy Warriors, a group affiliated with Al Qaeda, posted a declaration on the site praising a suicide bombing in Iraq that killed or wounded 55 people.
“If you kill our civilians, we kill your civilians,” Mr. Massari declared during an interview.
Mr. Massari’s Web site, and his public remarks, appear to violate of the Antiterrorism Act of 2006, which makes it a crime to glorify or encourage political violence. Inciting violence has long been illegal here but the new rules, drawn up after the London subway and bus bombings in July 2005, are intended to be much tougher.
The law’s underlying assumption is that speeches and publications by Britain’s more extreme Islamists may play a role in leading disgruntled young men toward violence. In addition to banning speech that encourages terrorism, the new law also criminalizes reckless speech that may have the same effect.
Yet despite the antiglorification law, and an array of other measures approved since last summer’s bombings, Islamist leaders like Mr. Massari persist, some of them declaring it the duty of British Muslims to kill in the name of Islam.
Some British leaders are beginning to publicly question why such clerics are allowed to continue. Last week, David Cameron, the leader of the Conservative Party, chastised the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair for failing to enforce laws intended to make it more difficult for political extremists to operate.
In remarks to the press, Mr. Cameron, a possible successor to Mr. Blair, accused the government of failing to “follow through when the headlines have moved on.”
“I do not believe that our government is doing enough to fight Islamist extremists at home or to protect our security,’’ he said. “Why have so few, if any, preachers of hate been prosecuted or expelled, with those that have gone having done so voluntarily?”
In addition to curtailing political speech, the British government outlawed 15 militant groups, most of them Muslim. It took a sterner attitude toward Islamists who had preached violence in the past, barring one well-known Syrian-born cleric, Omar Bakri Mohammed, from returning to the country. Earlier this year, it secured the conviction of Abu Hamza al-Masri, the country’s most militant cleric, for soliciting murder and racial hatred.
Yet for all those actions, the new measures do not appear to have silenced those either praising or calling for violence in the name of Islam. Some Islamist preachers have carefully scaled back their language, even if, in context, the meaning seems clear.
On Sunday, speaking before 8,000 followers in Manchester, Azam Tamimi extolled the glories of suffering for the faith.
“The greatest act of martyrdom is standing up for that is true and just,” Mr. Tamimi said. “Martyrs are those who stand up in defiance of George Bush and Tony Blair.”
The remarks by Mr. Tamimi, one in a line of Islamist scholars and clerics to address the Manchester crowd, were the latest in a series of carefully worded public statements by British Islamist leaders that seemed aimed at testing the limits of the new law. In the Islamic world, “martyrdom” means sacrificing one’s life, often violently, for the faith.
Others, meanwhile, have carried on as before, speaking in support of political violence or publishing tracts that do the same.
One of them is Atilla Ahmet, leader of the Islamist group Supporters of Shariah. In meetings with supporters and in interviews, the British-born Mr. Ahmet speaks freely about what he considers the necessity for violent action, both here and abroad, to avenge what he considers unjustified attacks on Muslims abroad.
“You are attacking our people in Muslim countries, in Iraq, in Afghanistan,’’ Mr. Ahmet said, referring to the British and American governments. “So it’s legitimate to attack British soldiers and policemen, government officials, and even the White House.”
Mr. Ahmet, a 42-year Briton of Cypriot descent, went on to include bank employees as legitimate targets “because they charge interest,” which he says is in violation of Islamic law.
Mr. Ahmet said he is aware of the new law, but that he could not shirk his duty to defend Islam, which he believes is under assault by Britain and the United States in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere. He says he often addresses his followers, who he says number 3,000.
“If you are going to kill a Muslim, then I will do everything in my power to kill you,’’ he said.
Mr. Massari, the Web site operator, said he approved of violence against British and American soldiers in Iraq, as well as against most of the governments in the Middle East. He said, for instance, that it “is legitimate for Iraqis to kill Tony Blair, the same with Bush.’’
The posting on his Web site about the Iraqi bombing said of the attackers, “We ask God to accept our brothers as martyrs.’’
Mr. Massari makes several distinctions that he says insulate him from being deported or prosecuted by the British government. He says, for instance, that he does not post any material on the Web site himself; he lets his members do that, most of whom sign up anonymously. The other important distinction, he said, is that he does not call for violence in Britain.
It does not appear that British law makes such distinctions. The law on the books defines terrorism as violence, or the threat of violence, to influence a government or further a political or religious cause. It does not limit the application of the law to targets in Britain.
Some legal experts here say the British law is so broadly drawn that it may encompass speech that is not necessarily intended to promote terrorism.
A group of Britons of Pakistani descent arguing loudly on a street corner about British or American policy in Iraq, for example, could conceivably be prosecuted under the law, said Gareth Crossman, director of policy for Liberty, a nonprofit legal organization in London.
“It’s an extraordinarily vague statute,’’ Mr. Crossman said. “No two people can agree on what the law means.”
Under those circumstances, Mr. Crossman said, it is hardly surprising that no one had been arrested under the law.
Asked why no one had been arrested or prosecuted for encouraging terrorism, a spokesman for Scotland Yard, the national police force, declined to comment.
The Bush administration, under laws toughened after the Sept. 11 attacks, has prosecuted a number of people for encouraging terrorism.
In one of the more high-profile cases, a Muslim scholar in northern Virginia, Ali al-Timimi, was sentenced to life in prison in 2005 for urging his young Muslim followers to wage war against the United States overseas.
At a dinner meeting on Sept. 16, 2001, Mr. Timimi told some of the men in the group that it was their Muslim duty to fight for Islam overseas and to defend the Taliban in Afghanistan against American forces, according to testimony at his trial. In an Internet message in 2003, he described the destruction of the space shuttle Columbia as a “good omen” for Muslims in an apocalyptic conflict with the West.
In Britain, some experts say they believe the difficulties in the law will be worked out in practice. Indeed, almost no one here is predicting that the recent attacks and plots described by the government will be the last, least of all the Islamists themselves.
“Anyone who supports Tony Blair,’’ said Khalid Kelley, an Irish-born convert to Islam, “is not a civilian.’’
Eric Lichtblau contributed reporting from Washington for this article. This article was also supplemented by material from the Press Association of Britain.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I disagree that this is taken out of context.
Islam views all unbelievers and followers of Allah and the Prophet as enemy, as oppressors of the believer who would lead them astray, as deserving of any evil that may come upon them. Because they do not believe that GOd loves the unbeliever, thier protecting, or doing good to etc would be considered to be against Allah.
As I said, I'm no expert on the Koran (or Qu'ran, not sure which is the best English representation), but I've never heard any muslim describe all non-muslims as oppressors just by the dint of their unbelief.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
This is contrary to Christianity who believes that GOD loves the unbeliever.
I think there's a lot more than this in Islam that is contrary to Christianity!
Caretaker - your ability to trawl the net to find articles that don't quite address the point to cut and paste as replies still impresses me. It's a shame that your views and your predjuice blinds you to the love that you are commanded to have for Muslims around the world. It must be very hard to walk around and feel suspicion and hate for all the muslims that you see, compared to the joy and love that Jesus gives us.
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Cheers
Andy
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Eduardo Grequi
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posted
quote:
Eduardo says:
quote:
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Do not get me wrong there is good in all people,
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Respectfully, the bible does not agree with you...
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
The only good that is in people is in the people that are indwelled by the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost in them is good.
Linda: You are so right!
WHen I use this phrase, I am talking about people doing good things- but it is usually to place a facad or trying earn salvation and without recognizing Jesus as the chosen Messiah and therefore regardless how much good that seems to be done could never equate or rebuild the bridge back to GOd. Jesus said- "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but by me"- If our works could save us- only some would see the gates of Heaven, but never qualify to enter in on our own merit. It is like the richman and Lazarito in the bible For by grace are you save,not of works least any man should boast.
My happiness is based on the salvation that Jesus has purchased with his persecution. It was his ressurection from the dead, that made his suffering and dying the most unique. He propiated my sins- now that is love!
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Eduardo says: quote:
Do not get me wrong there is good in all people,
Respectfully, the bible does not agree with you...
Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
The only good that is in people is in the people that are indwelled by the Holy Ghost, for the Holy Ghost in them is good.
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Andy says: quote:
This is a quote used alot to encite hatred of muslims (the people, not the religion) and is taken out of context. The full paragraph goes:
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[2.194] The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
The exhortaion is to fight those who oppress Muslims, not to go out and midlessly slaughter all the unbelievers.
I disagree that this is taken out of context.
Islam views all unbelievers and followers of Allah and the Prophet as enemy, as oppressors of the believer who would lead them astray, as deserving of any evil that may come upon them. Because they do not believe that GOd loves the unbeliever, thier protecting, or doing good to etc would be considered to be against Allah.
This is contrary to Christianity who believes that GOD loves the unbeliever.
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Caretaker
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http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1336
The news last week that police had arrested Sajid Badat at his home in Gloucester, England, shook many Britons.
The charges against him concerned his training with al-Qaida in Afghanistan and his possessing PETN explosives, the same substance would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid had tried to set off. Police believe Badat intended to carry off the very first suicide bombing in the United Kingdom.
But not everyone was shaken by this news. Gloucester's Muslim community esteemed Badat too much to credit the charges. One admirer called him "a walking angel" and "the bright star of our mosque."
Another described him as "a friendly, warm, fun-loving character." A cousin insisted Badat was "nothing more than a friendly, sociable, normal young lad, who had lots of friends and did not hold extreme views in any way."
Interestingly, a similar gulf in attitudes recurs almost every time a supporter of militant Islam has either been arrested on terrorism-related charges or engaged in an actual terrorist operation.
Consider three other European examples:
* "He was a very nice person. He used to train our kids. He was very jolly and always laughing." This eulogy by a mosque leader describes Wail al Dhaleai, a British immigrant of Yemeni origins who carried out a suicide attack against US troops in Iraq. Another mosque figure called Dhaleai a "jolly fine gentleman" and a neighbor noted how he went "out of his way to help the children." Dhaleai's martial arts coach added, "He just made you laugh. – I cannot say enough nice things about him. He was such a nice guy."
* "He was just a big teddy bear – honorable and very polite – a well-liked and respected pupil": those are some of the depictions of Asif Hanif, a Briton of Pakistan origins who blew himself up in a Tel Aviv pub, killing three.
* "He was smart, clever and kind, a really nice boy." That's Zacarias Moussaoui, sometimes known as 9/11's "twentieth hijacker," as described by his older brother.
The same admiration for accused terrorists also gets expressed in the United States:
* "He was the nicest guy. He didn't mess with anybody," said Iyman Faris's former employer right after Faris, an Ohio trucker of Pakistani origins, had pleaded guilty to providing material support to terrorists and conspiracy to provide support. Faris's stepson spoke endearingly of his stepfather's "very good sense of humor."
* "Just a normal, good-natured young man who dreamed of a family of his own, whose young adult years in [Florida] were filled with driving children to school, buying groceries and taking college courses." That's the Miami Herald paraphrasing his family talking about Adnan Gulshair El'Shukri-jumah, a Florida-raised Saudi suspected of being an al-Qaida member who helped with 9/11, and someone the FBI considers "a very, very, very serious threat."
* "She was an educated person, concerned with educating people about Islam." She here is Aafia Siddiqui as portrayed by her imam, a Pakistani woman sought for questioning about ties to al-Qaida.
And similar responses are found in the Muslim world – for example this case from Thailand's Muslim-majority south:
* "Friendly and charming – a kind person," someone beloved by villagers for offering free health checks and cheap medicine; that's how a religious leader described Waemahadi Wae-dao, a medical doctor arrested on charges of planning to bomb embassies and tourist spots in Thailand.
Such high regard for terrorists has several important implications. First, it points to the adherents of militant Islam being indeed "normal, good-natured young" people, and not misfits. In common with other totalitarian movements, militant Islam finds support among many accomplished, talented, and attractive individuals – which renders it all the more dangerous a threat.
Second, the fact that those who murder on behalf of militant Islam often enjoy psychological soundness, educational attainment, sporting success, economic achievement, or social esteem suggests that Islamist violence cannot be reduced by adopting the "root causes" approach of addressing personal poverty and despair. The phenomenon needs to be fought head-on.
Third, that terrorists are (unsurprisingly) skilled at hiding their intentions has the unfortunate consequence of making them harder to discern and therefore spreads suspicion to the larger Muslim community. This in turn points to that community's heightened responsibility and incentive to ferret out potential terrorists in its midst.
Feb. 28, 2005 update: Sajed Badat, the "walking angel," pleaded guilty today to charges that he conspired with Richard Reid to blow up a U.S.-bound airliner in 2001 with a shoe bomb. He was sentenced to life in prison.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Sudden Jihad Syndrome
Individual Islamists may appear law-abiding and reasonable, but they are part of a totalitarian movement, and as such, all must be considered potential killers." I wrote those words days after September 11, 2001, and have been criticized for them ever since. But an incident on March 3 at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill suggests I did not go far enough.
That was when a just-graduated student named Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, 22, and an Iranian immigrant, drove a sport utility vehicle into a crowded pedestrian zone. He struck nine people but, fortunately, none were severely injured.
Until his would-be murderous rampage, Mr. Taheri-azar, a philosophy and psychology major, had a seemingly normal existence and promising future. In high school, he had been student council president and a member of the National Honor Society. The Los Angeles Times writes that a number of UNC students found him "a serious student, shy but friendly." One fellow student, Brian Copeland, "was impressed with his knowledge of classical Western thought," adding, "He was kind and gentle, rather than aggressive and violent." The university chancellor, James Moeser, called him a good student, if "totally a loner, introverted and into himself."
In fact, no one who knew him said a bad word about him, which is important, for it signals that he is not some low-life, not homicidal, not psychotic, but a conscientious student and amiable person. Which raises the obvious question: Why would a regular person try to kill a random assortment of students? Mr. Taheri-azar's post-arrest remarks offer some clues.
* He told the 911 dispatcher that he wanted to "punish the government of the United States for their actions around the world."
* He explained to a detective that "people all over the world are being killed in war and now it is the people in the United States' turn to be killed."
* He said he acted to "avenge the deaths of Muslims around the world."
* He portrayed his actions as "an eye for an eye."
* A police affidavit notes that "Taheri-azar repeatedly said that the United States government had been killing his people across the sea and that he decided to attack."
* He told a judge, "I'm thankful you're here to give me this trial and to learn more about the will of Allah."
In brief, Mr. Taheri-azar represents the ultimate Islamist nightmare: a seemingly well-adjusted Muslim whose religion inspires him, out of the blue, to murder non-Muslims. Mr. Taheri-azar acknowledged planning his jihad for more than two years, or during his university sojourn. It's not hard to imagine how his ideas developed, given the coherence of Islamist ideology, its immense reach (including a Muslim Student Association at UNC), and its resonance among many Muslims.
Were Mr. Taheri-azar unique in his surreptitious adoption of radical Islam, one could ignore his case, but he fits into a widespread pattern of Muslims who lead quiet lives before turning to terrorism. Their number includes the hijackers responsible for the attacks of September 11, the London transport bombers, and the Intel engineer arrested before he could join the Taliban in Afghanistan, Maher Hawash.
A Saudi living in Houston, Mohammed Ali Alayed, fit the pattern because he stabbed and murdered a Jewish man, Ariel Sellouk, who was his one-time friend. So do some converts to Islam; who suspected a 38-year-old Belgian woman, Muriel Degauque, would turn up in Iraq as a suicide bomber throwing herself against an American military base?
This is what I have dubbed the Sudden Jihad Syndrome, whereby normal-appearing Muslims abruptly become violent. It has the awful but legitimate consequence of casting suspicion on all Muslims. Who knows whence the next jihadi? How can one be confident a law-abiding Muslim will not suddenly erupt in a homicidal rage? Yes, of course, their numbers are very small, but they are disproportionately much higher than among non-Muslims.
This syndrome helps explain the fear of Islam and mistrust of Muslims that polls have shown on the rise since September 11, 2001.
The Muslim response of denouncing these views as bias, as the "new anti-Semitism," or "Islamophobia" is as baseless as accusing anti-Nazis of "Germanophobia" or anti-Communists of "Russophobia." Instead of presenting themselves as victims, Muslims should address this fear by developing a moderate, modern, and good-neighborly version of Islam that rejects radical Islam, jihad, and the subordination of "infidels."
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
Ajar says" quote:
Love is not just saying an occasional prayer for their salvation - it is thought, word and deed!
Love is a way of life.Love isn't an in season out of season walk- It is a pilgramage. A deed is the application of the belief you try to aspire to others. Being as that said. Even the New Testament dictates that there will come in my name wolves in sheep clothing deceiving many. The Lord's Army is a dictate of a people lead by hate. When you contrast the Protestant and the Catholics in Ireland it is so stupid when Christians who fight in the name of Christ to prove their political motives. To walk in love does not mean to walk in ignorance. Those who lead Islam lead it with the itent to irradicate Christians, Jews especially. So if we choose to lay down with the wolf knowing that we are the lambs- we do you think will become the slaughter?
Most Islamic Believers would have you to believe that Islam has always existed along side of Judism and Christianity.
Do not get me wrong there is good in all people, but if your goal is to deceive , to conquer and to destroy who refuse to be conquered, my eye is on you. Peaying for the salvation of others is important.
Do you know that if an Islamic person converts to Christianity the Islam people who are driven seek to kill and destroy their fellow neighbor. Now if a religion seeks to destroy and kill you because you choose to be Christian, That religion is of the Devil and an anti-chriistan ideology.
In the subject area of Christian News, I posted a letter I received from Voice of the Marytrs about specific incidents of people converting to Christianity and are tortured by those who say they live in peace.
Eduardo, I think we're in danger of agreeing - I like the way you describe love for you neighbour.
I certainly don't think that we should be ignorant - there are obviously people out there who will want to deceive and harm us, but we need to be careful that we don't lump them together with everyone else - if nothing else this makes us less vigilant as our attention is too divided
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Cheers
Andy
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Eduardo Grequi
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Ajar says" quote:
Love is not just saying an occasional prayer for their salvation - it is thought, word and deed!
Love is a way of life.Love isn't an in season out of season walk- It is a pilgramage. A deed is the application of the belief you try to aspire to others. Being as that said. Even the New Testament dictates that there will come in my name wolves in sheep clothing deceiving many. The Lord's Army is a dictate of a people lead by hate. When you contrast the Protestant and the Catholics in Ireland it is so stupid when Christians who fight in the name of Christ to prove their political motives. To walk in love does not mean to walk in ignorance. Those who lead Islam lead it with the intent to irradicate Christians, Jews especially. So if we choose to lay down with the wolf knowing that we are the lambs- who do you think will become the slaughter?
Most Islamic Believers would have you to believe that Islam has always existed along side of Judism and Christianity.
Do not get me wrong there is good in all people, but if your goal is to deceive , to conquer and to destroy who refuse to be conquered, my eye is on you. Praying for the salvation of others is important.
Do you know that if an Islamic person converts to Christianity the Islam people who are driven seek to kill and destroy their fellow neighbor. Now if a religion seeks to destroy and kill you because you choose to be Christian, That religion is of the Devil and an anti-chriistan ideology.
In the subject area of Christian News, I posted a letter I received from Voice of the Marytrs about specific incidents of people converting to Christianity and are tortured by those who say they live in peace.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Most would probably wonder, why I would post this. The other day I was visiting a tutorial and it was titled, "Islam The Way To Go". The Inam was addressing students, not parents but children. I listen to this Inam- His name is Muhammand Eljerd Hajj. He was portraying Islam in a fashion as a gang- a club -if you will and that only Allah is in charge and he speaks thru the Inam. This Inam was propogating to our children. They did things similar to what churches would do, to get converts. This young lady probably 14-she stood up and asked point blank-' WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT JESUS? THE Inam evaded the question, than another person stood up, a young man- He introduced himself as Isreal Benjamnin- and He too asked what do you think about who Christians claim is the Jewish Messiah Jesus that One?
I stood at the back and I listen to this man- and accept for few people, the rest just was so glued on this guy. The Inam backed away from the microfone and said in Arabic-" Those damn Christians, they should all be put to the Mazhetti.
The Inam did not realize he was too close to the microfone and the jewish peopl understood him. Especially Isreal Benjamin- who so happened just spent his last 5 years in nothern Isreal. He spoke good Hebrew and Arabic.
The kid stood up and yelled to top of his voice and said in Arabic, Spanish and Hebrew "THAT GUY IS TEACHING MURDER ESPECIALLY OF CHRISTIANS.
Being as that is That People in America who are fanatical for Allah if you will- are reaching out to your children and especially behind your back! [/B] [B]CHRISTIANS WHO TRULY FOLLOW THE MESSIAH- YOUR CHILDREN ARE LEARNING THINGS THAT TEACHES LOVE ONLY WHEN YOU JOIN THE CLUB AND HATE ALL WHO DO NOT FOLLOW IT.
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Is it against Jesus teachings to be anti muslim?
Yes. The distinction is between muslims and Islam. Muslims are the people, and therefore we are instructed to love them as our neighbours. That does not stop us being anti-Islam as it is a mistaken religion.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Slaughter of Opponents Muslims must fight the unbelievers who oppose them. Muslims are to obey the Islamic rules of war. They must kill the unbelievers wherever they find them. They are to drive them out of the lands they took from the Muslims. Enduring trouble and oppression from the unbelievers is worse than the Muslim’s act of the all out slaughter of the unbelievers (2:190-191).
This is a quote used alot to encite hatred of muslims (the people, not the religion) and is taken out of context. The full paragraph goes:
[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.
[2.194] The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
The exhortaion is to fight those who oppress Muslims, not to go out and midlessly slaughter all the unbelievers.
EDIT
Some info on the Ugandan Lord's Resistance Army:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3514473.stm
And what they have done in the name of the 10 commandments:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/5129350.stm
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Cheers
Andy
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Eduardo.. just a quick note: It is important to disinguish from Judaism and Torah. The religious practices given in the Torah are from God. Judaism is Talmudic and not from God.. Judaism is a perversion of Torah that came out of the Babylonian captivity.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Is it against Jesus teachings to be anti muslim?
Islam is a relgion, the teaching of a man who is antichrtist. Was Paul anti Diana- ism? As Christians, we pray for the people who follow Islam, but we are against their religion.
This is a good article because it gives the Sura references. I do not have time to put together my own piece today but you can read the Koran online and you can look the references up yourself..
This is from Fisher:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/Fisher/Topical/index.htm
You can also get the Koran here at answering Islam.
The Qur'an Says¼
Introduction of Jihad The faithful wish for a chapter to be revealed, but when one is given that mentions warfare, the weak look to Mohammed as if they would faint because of their fear of death (47:20).
Allah Loves Warriors Allah loves individuals who fight for Islam in ranks as strong as a mighty building (61:4).
Protection of Churches To keep many monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques from being destroyed, Allah uses one kind of people to fight another kind of people. In each of these buildings Allah is worshiped on a daily basis (22:40).
Slaughter of Opponents Muslims must fight the unbelievers who oppose them. Muslims are to obey the Islamic rules of war. They must kill the unbelievers wherever they find them. They are to drive them out of the lands they took from the Muslims. Enduring trouble and oppression from the unbelievers is worse than the Muslim’s act of the all out slaughter of the unbelievers (2:190-191). Muslims are excused from fighting during holidays since their carnage of the idol worshipers is justified by the persecution suffered by the Muslims (2:217).
Fight for Islam Whether Muslims are unarmed or well equipped, they are to march on and fight for the cause of Allah (9:41). It is a bargain for Muslims to give of themselves and their wealth to fight for the cause of Islam since there will be a rewarded with Paradise. There are benefits in the present as well. There will be help from above to win quick victories. Spread this good news to the faithful. Believers, be Allah’s helpers! Jesus’ disciples were such and they received help against the other Israelites who did not believe. They triumphed over their enemies (61:10-14).
Post War Honor Those who gave financial support and took part in the fighting before the victory was won will have a greater rank than those that fought and contributed after the victory had been determined (57:10).
Battlefield Instructions When the unbelievers are encountered, aim your blows at their necks. When you have won the battle, tie up the prisoners of war firmly. Then you may either decide to be generous to the prisoners or ask for a ransom for their freedom (47:4).
Only Assurance of Paradise Soldiers, who die in battle fighting for Islam, are promised admission to the Eternal Gardens or Paradise (47:4-6, 3:169-171).
Spoils of War What is taken from villages, as spoils of war, must not be divided among the rich only. They will be given to Mohammed and the poor. Mohammed will distribute the possessions as he sees fit and no one should complain (59:7, 8:1). When the Muslims go forth, to take the possessions of others, some who are unworthy will say that they want to fight, but Muhammad will tell them that they are excluded (48:15,16). Allah knows of other booty, which the Muslims have not yet taken (48:18-21). Enjoy the spoils of war (8:69).
War among Muslims If fighting breaks out among Muslims, everyone should fight against the party in the wrong until they submit and then be fair with them (49:9).
Promise of Victory Allah promised rich booty and speedy victory for the Muslim warriors. In addition, they will have protection from their enemies. Their victory will be a sign for Muslims. If unbelievers come against the Muslims they will retreat with no one to help them or protect them (48:20-22, 8:7-10). Those who only have Allah, Mohammed and faithful Muslims as friends are sure to triumph (5:56). Victory only comes from Allah (3:126).
Muslims Are Ruthless Those who follow Mohammed are ruthless to the unbelievers but compassionate to one another (48:29).
Fear The Jews who supported the fight against the Muslims were miraculously brought out of their strongholds and frightened. This is why the Muslims were able to kill them or take them captive. The Muslims became masters of the Jews’ lands, homes and property (33:26,27). Gather a large number of men and cavalry so that you may strike fear into the hearts of your enemy (8:60).
Behead and Maim The hearts of the infidels will be terrorized so Muslims should attack with courage and behead them and cut off all their fingers. Maiming your victims will show that opposing Allah and Mohammed results in severe punishment. They are going to hell (8:12-14).
Treatment of Enemies Those who make war on Allah and Mohammed should be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides or be exiled. They must be degraded in this world and doomed in the afterlife (5:33). They are not to be forced to become Muslims (2:256).
Damnation for Muslim Cowards When Muslims meet infidels in battle, they must not retreat except for strategic reasons. Anyone who turns to run from fear, he will be punished and certainly hell will be his home (8:16).
Make War on the Unbelievers Muslims are to continue fighting unbelievers until the religion of Islam is dominant everywhere (8:39). Make war on the unbelievers and treat them harshly. Hell is their unhappy journey’s end (9:73, 66:9).
Break Treaties Muslims may break their treaties with unbelievers if they feel that the infidels are being treacherous. Unbelievers will never get the better of Muslims. They should be attacked with such a mighty force that it frightens them, but if they want to surrender, then make peace (8:57-61).
Muslims Will Always Be Victorious If there are one hundred good Muslims, they will vanquish two hundred unbelievers. If there are one thousand, they will cause two thousand unbelievers to flee because they have no understanding (8:66-67, 3:126).
Prisoners Mohammed should not possess prisoners of war until final victory over their land has been accomplished. Muslims want the spoils of war too early because they seek worldly rewards rather than heavenly rewards. Muslims should enjoy the good and lawful things they have gained from warfare and not seek illegal gain (8:67-69).
Concubines It is prohibited for Muslims to marry women who are already married, unless they are their slaves which they have possessed by force of battle (4:24). Muslims are those who abstain from sexual relations beyond their wives and slave girls they have captured in battle. Such relationships with prisoners are blameless (23:5-6). Slaves do not share equally the riches Allah gives their owners. Their owners do not fear their slaves as they do their fellow Muslims (30:28).
Kill the Idolaters Once a holiday from war is ended, Muslims are to kill the idol worshipers wherever they find them. They are to capture them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they convert, pray and give alms then they will be allowed to live (9:5).
Make War Year Round Allah created twelve months with four being sacred, but since the unbelievers fight in all twelve months, it is allowed for Muslims to make war against the idol worshipers in all twelve months (9:36).
Fight against Everyone Muslims, fight everyone who reject Islam, even against Christians and Jews who have rejected Islam, until they pay regular financial tribute with willing submission and feel themselves completely subjected to their Islamic conquerors (9:29).
Defeat All Religions Allah sent Mohammed with the true religion so that it may prevail over all other religions (9:33).
Kill and Be Killed In return for their lives and contributions, Muslims are given a Garden Paradise. This is promised to those who fight, kill and are killed for the cause. This same message is in the Torah, the Gospel and the Qur'an (9:111).
Fight Neighbors Muslims, make war against the infidels who live around them and they are to demonstrate harshness to them (9:123).
Example of Jews of Nadhir The defeat of the People of the Bible (or Book) in the first attack was Allah’s work. Many Muslims did not think they (probably the Jews of Nadhir) would leave their homes but they left terrified. Allah gave their possessions to Mohammed who distributed them as Mohammed willed. Some hypocritical Arabs have promised the People of the Bible that they will help them if the Muslims attack and drive them out, but they are lying. They will go to hell with Satan (59:1-17).
Change or Be Killed If the hypocrites and troublemakers in the city do not change, Allah will move the Muslims to seize and kill them without mercy wherever they find them (33:60,61).
Battle the Friends of Satan True Muslims fight for the cause of Allah but the infidels do battle for the cause of idols. Fight the friends of Satan (4:76).
Do Not Kill for Booty For the sake of gaining booty, the Muslims would kill even those who asked for peace. They are to stop doing this and show discernment. Allah has forgiven the Muslims for doing this in the past but Allah is aware of their future actions (4:94).
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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ahar
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
A couple of things here Andy regarding your post..
1. Muslims are not a race of people. Muslims are the followers of a false prophet.. the prophet Mohammad.
Correct - hence the quotes I used around the word race. I couldn't think of a better word to describe the millions of muslims around the world
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
2. Have you read the Koran? I have read the Koran and I can tell you that it calls for the sword against those who will not submit to Allah.(infidels) To day that those who practice this are twisiting religious texts is simply not true.
Some, but as I said I am not an expert. Neither would I say that anyone on this board is. However, I have spoken to and seen many experts who say that the extremists are twisting the Qu'ran.
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
There is a vast difference in those that you cite such as the David Koresh's or even the Roman Church in the inquisions etc and what the liberal media would call Fanatical Islam.
These professing Christian groups are not Christian and are not practicing the WORD.
The point I was making is that the majority of Muslims believe that those fanatics are also not practicing the teachings of the Koran.
The Old Testament, with the commandments from God to the Israelites to go a kill a load of people, is very open to twisting and misinterpretation from a skilled person - it's happened many times in the past and is happening now. Why should Islam be any different?
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
What people want to label as fundamental or fanatical Islam are practicing the word of the Quran and it is those who are not that are not practicing Islam.
I don't label it as fundamentalism, the peaceful Muslim majority do!
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Islam calls for the destruction of those who will not submit to Allah. This is in their text. It is not in the Christian text.
I'm not here to defend every quote from the Koran, or defend Islam as a religion (John 4:16!). I am saying that I feel a serious anti-muslim undercurrent that is contrary to Jesus' teachings.
I meet many many Muslims every day, just as I meet many many unbelievers every day. I see no difference between the two and I love both equally. I judge people by their own actions, words and thoughts, not by the rantings of someone who professes to be from the same religion as them. Would you want people to judge you from the words of Joel Osteen, David Koressh or the Lord's Resistance Army?
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Cheers
Andy
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
A couple of things here Andy regarding your post..
1. Muslims are not a race of people. Muslims are the followers of a false prophet.. the prophet Mohammad.
2. Have you read the Koran? I have read the Koran and I can tell you that it calls for the sword against those who will not submit to Allah.(infidels) To day that those who practice this are twisiting religious texts is simply not true.
There is a vast difference in those that you cite such as the David Koresh's or even the Roman Church in the inquisions etc and what the liberal media would call Fanatical Islam.
These professing Christian groups are not Christian and are not practicing the WORD.
What people want to label as fundamental or fanatical Islam are practicing the word of the Quran and it is those who are not that are not practicing Islam.
Islam calls for the destruction of those who will not submit to Allah. This is in their text. It is not in the Christian text.
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ahar
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
It means treating them so that they would see the light ofChrist in us so that we could be a witness and reach them and be a vessle used to bring them into Yahweh's Kingdom.
Difficult to see that light of christ in many of the generalisations and predjuice that have started to take root.
How do we expect to reach them when all we do is discriminate, bad mouth them and opress them because of their choice of religion. It is the fact that they are muslims that some are responding to, not the fact they are not saved.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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ahar
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Member # 5810
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posted
Before I start, I am not saying that Eduardo is demonising Muslims through his post, this is a more general worry I have through looking at the tone of posts on this board.
I do worry when I see articles like this as they contribute to the demonisation of a whole 'race' of people - namely Muslims. No doubt the chap 'Soloman' described in the article was teaching people to kill and maim using the Koran, but that does not mean that ALL Muslims are doing this. As ever, you can twist religious texts to brainwash your believers into thinking what you're doing is right.
Now you're thinking that Christianity is different from Islam in this respect (in terms of being able to be twisted)? Well, I would take a look at rest of the threads in this section to see that the teachings of the bible can be twisted.
Now you're thinking that the difference is that the Bible isn't twisted towards violence and destruction like Islam is. To that I would answer two points:
1) There are people doing this in the US and UK as well as around the world. Luckily the instances in the US/UK are much smaller, but I would point you towards people such as David Korresh. In Africa it is much more widespread, with organisations such as the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda.
2) Some may argue that the absolute support for Israel's actions (no matter what they are) in Lebanon using the concept of Jew's being God's chosen people could be cast in this light.
You are at this point thinking up a robust reply to my points and about to press reply to give me a healthy dose of 'righteous wrath'. Before you do think on this:
You are a farmer in Uganda, who has grown up in a small village. You don't have much, but you are generally happy. You have had contact with Christian missionaries, and while they seemed nice, you are still practicing your animist beliefs. Then, one day the soldiers come. They attack without warning... killing, raping...stealing.... burning. You are left with nothing. Your family dead, you crops burned and your cattle stolen. You hear them talking about a divine mission. They call themselves The Lord's Resistance Army and say they are Christians.
The soldiers leave, and after a while the missionaries come back with food, medical supplies and their bibles again. How do distinguish between the missionaries and the soldiers - they both claim to be Christians, and both use the bible to support what they are saying. You weren't brought up as a christian so how do you distinguish between the two? Although the missionaries say that the soldiers are wrong, and they are doing nice things now, how do you know they will not do this in the future, or that Christianity really does support what the soldiers did?
In this, we are like the Ugandan farmer. We are attacked by people calling themselves Muslims, using the Qu'ran to support their terrible actions. We are told by other Muslims that this is against their beliefs, but how do we know - after what has happened and what is still happening, how can we tell? Do we lump them all together or take them each by their actions and their words?
I am not an expert on Islam, but living in London you can't be help know many many Muslims in everyday life and without exception they have all told me that what Al'Queda and others do in killing innocent people is wrong.
How can we say on one hand that we are following Jesus by loving our neighbour, and on the other hand accuse millions and millions of people as hate mongers and terrorists simply through their religion. Yes, Islam IS the wrong religion in terms of John 14:6, but does this mean we should treat it's followers worse than atheists? Are followers of Islam not worthy of the love of Christians, but Buddists are?
I feel too much of the predjuice against Muslims seems to stem from interpretations of Revelations - that somehow because we may think that the anti-christ may be a muslim (and I'm surprised just how much this is seen as a certainty, given how difficult the interpretation of revelations is) that exempts us from loving them.
Love is not just saying an occasional prayer for their salvation - it is thought, word and deed!
Prejudice also stems from the attacks we have recently suffered, but let me ask you - does this mean that the Ugandan farmer is justified in his predjuice against christians because of the attacks he has suffered from the Lord's Resistance Army. Just this week a British muslim man was refused entry to the USA (after he had landed) simply for the fact he was a Muslim and there have been reports of a terror plot to blow up a plane. His wife and children we allowed to continue into the country and continued their holiday to Disney World without him.
Just to clear up any misconceptions you may have conviently thought up while reading this, this is not a post support Islam (see reference to John 4:16 above) - it is a post challenging us to think what loving your neighbour really means when it comes to thinking about and making offhand comments about Muslims.
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Cheers
Andy
Posts: 290 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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Eduardo Grequi
Advanced Member
Member # 3984
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posted
Do You truly understand that as an Islamic, they are called by their god, to either convert the pagan to Islam or die? I often wonder if the religion of Judism is suppose to be the true relgion ; meaning that if Jesus the Christ has come and been prophesied to be the Messiah then the building on the Torah would include the Messiah and the apostles etc.. I hav read this article from the Jewish World Review and thought it had some good information.
Jewish World Review August 17, 2006 / 23 Menachem-Av, 5766
The convert
By Cal Thomas
http://www.JewishWorldReview.com | During the Cold War, American intelligence loved getting its hands on defectors from communism. The reasoning was that these people had the best information about the plans of the other side, information that would help America defeat them.
In the present war against what President Bush has properly labeled "Islamic fascism," defectors are just as valuable.
The Israel Project, an international nonprofit organization devoted to educating the press and the public about Israel, recently made a former leading imam and radical Islam expert available for media interviews and I had a chance to speak with him. He goes by the name of Sam Soloman because of death threats from those not happy with the information he has about their plans to dominate the world.
Soloman was brought up in the Islamic tradition and became a "recruiter," which he says is something like an assistant teacher. One of his responsibilities was "brainwashing people in the Koran." He tells me "The suicide bombers go through stages, and the most important stage is not when they blow themselves up. The most important stage is conforming them to the (Muslim) ideology. Once they are conformed to the ideology, the rest is easy. That is the role I had."
Soloman is in double trouble. Not only did he abandon Islam and the terrorists' objectives, he has also become a Christian, which has marked him for death. Born in the Middle East, he visited Washington from his adopted country, which he declines to name to protect his family.
Soloman speaks with knowledge, credibility and conviction. He has memorized large sections of the Koran and tells me, "There's not a single verse in the Koran talking about peace with a non-Muslim, with the Jews and the Christians. Islam means submission. Islam means surrender. It means you surrender and accept Islamic hegemony over yourselves..."
I ask him about the best strategy for fighting it: "It cannot be combated simply by force. It needs to be combated ideologically, spiritually (as well as) through arms."
Soloman says the outlets for Islamic ideology are religious — seminaries, the madrassas (Koranic schools) and especially the mosques. "From the beginning, Mohammed used the mosque to propagate this ideology. It was in the mosque that jihad was declared (and) that troops were sent to conquer the rest of the world. The mosque was the seat of government and Americans are right to be concerned about (their growth)."
He asks Americans to inform themselves about the real teachings of Islam and not to fall for what various Islamic groups say it teaches. Soloman says, "The simplest Islamic book you open" teaches that all unbelievers (in Islam) are profane people. "Because of the (Koranic) text and what it says, it incites violence." He begins quoting verses from memory, too quickly to write them all down. One is, "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush." (Surah 9:5)
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"This kind of tactic of taking verses out of context can be used against any religious faith," says Ibrahim Hooper, spokesman for Washington, D.C.-based Council on American-Islamic Relations, an Islamic civil rights and advocacy group. "It can and has been used against the Bible and has been used against the Quran."
"These verses deal with the real experience of the Muslim community at the time when they were under attack. It's not a general injunction to go out and harm people. The only people who take it that way are those who want to promote hostility toward Islam and Muslims. They would object if the same thing were done to their faith."
Yes, but virtually all Christians and Jews denounce the infinitesimal few who claim to be Jewish or Christian and use their "holy books" to justify violence against others as a direct command from G-d.
Asked whether the Koran commands the killing of or violence against all nonbelievers, Ali Khan, national director of the Chicago-based American Muslim Council, replied: "No. (That's) far from the truth. There's nothing in the Koran, no verse that I'm aware of, that advocates the killing of nonbelievers."
The terrorists and those who preach from mosques throughout the Middle East must be reading a different version, then, because virtually all of their sermons that I've read claim their G-d wants them to kill all "infidels."
Soloman says Americans must demand from the leading Islamic hierarchy, such as the Muslim World League and the Union of Imams, a fatwa that makes it clear "that this is not what the text means and that these texts are no longer effective. They have passed their date. But if they remain effective and eternally valid, then in America we have a serious problem."
How serious? He says. "They are infiltrating and undermining every part of this society. We are promoting Islamic mortgages, Islamic insurance companies. There are 29 banks in the United States promoting Islamic banking. Since 1999, Dow Jones has launched Dow Jones Islamic Index and has subjected itself to be governed by an international Sharia board." (Sharia is the religious law of Islam outlined in the Koran.)
Soloman adds, "The Islamic organizations have their missionaries and there are active or sleeping cells in this country." He mentions one, Tablighi Jamaat, "a Pakistani organization that is hand-in-glove with the Wahaabis, strong Muslim sects known for their strict observance of the Koran, and a strong facilitator of al-Qaida and other factions of terrorism. They alone have 1,000 missionaries in New York, 50,000 across the United States. This is only one organization. In 1994, I took a map and started putting pins in it. I found there is not a single state without a mosque. Since then (the number) has increased."
Americans must see past their natural reluctance to paint all members of a group with a broad brush and realize our failure to act now against this clear and present danger in the ways Sam Soloman recommends will lead to a disaster for us that is far worse than our Cold War enemies had envisaged.
Every weekday JewishWorldReview.com publishes what many in in the media and Washington consider "must-reading". Sign up for the daily JWR update. It's free. Just click here.
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