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Topic: On Christian Fellowship
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trafield
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posted
quote:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Exactly right....brother.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievences you many have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
If I speak in tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-2
Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Consider therefore the kindness and sterness of God: sterness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
-Romans 11:20-22
He who has ears to hear, let him hear. ![[cool_shades]](graemlins/cool_shades.gif)
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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epouraniois
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It might also be seen by looking to John's Gospel, that even standing near the enemy to be warmed by fire is not a good idea:
Joh 18:15 And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple: that disciple was known unto the high priest, and went in with Jesus into the palace of the high priest.
So they are in a huge palace. That has some import:
Joh 18:16
But Peter stood at the door without. Then went out that other disciple, which was known unto the high priest, and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter.
Joh 18:17
Then saith the damsel that kept the door unto Peter, Art not thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not.
Joh 18:18
And the servants and officers stood there, who had made a fire of coals; for it was cold: and they warmed themselves: and Peter stood with them, and warmed himself.
Peter is standing with the enemy, at their fire:
Joh 18:19
The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his doctrine.
Joh 18:20
Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing.
He is basically say, yes, what doctrien are you talking about;
Joh 18:21
Why askest thou me? ask them which heard me, what I have said unto them: behold, they know what I said.
He is saying if I have said anything prove it;
Joh 18:22
And when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so?
The Romans were pretty rough, and not pleased to have to deal with this Jewish stuff;
Joh 18:23
Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?
Joh 18:24
Now Annas had sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest.
They traveled to another place in the palace. They did not go very far, and Peter again stands with the enemy, at their fire:
Joh 18:25
And Simon Peter stood and warmed himself. They said therefore unto him, Art not thou also one of his disciples? He denied it, and said, I am not.
And is again put in the exact same position;
Joh 18:26
One of the servants of the high priest, being his kinsman whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him?
Joh 18:27
Peter then denied again: and immediately the **** crew.
Throughout the Bible, truth has been attacked by that great spiritual foe. Nothing has changed in that respect. That is why some BB's have rules that allow all kinds of heresey no matter what the Bible says, while others try to search and see with all readiness of mind to see if a thing is so, daily.
Moderators are a necessary component to warrent the interest the BB desires to uphold. Good ones are getting farther and fewer in between.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears
Amo 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amo 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
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KnowHim
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Jesus is love and if you don't know Him, you will never know how to love.
Jesus' definition of love does not mean the same as the worlds definition. If you love someone you will want them to meet and know Jesus Christ. Until this happens they will go to hell. You can fellowship all you want and talk about Jesus all you want but on judgement day all that will matter is if you know Jesus Christ. Satan believes in Jesus but he is not saved. You can tolerate everything in the name of love and still go to hell.
It is all about Jesus Christ and when you go so far out of your way to point to anything other then Jesus Christ you really need to rethink if you have ever really come to know Jesus. You will only do this if you really LOVE Jesus.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:15 through Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:11 through 2 Corinthians 11:15 (KJV)
"How can a local church be seduced from Christ? By following Satan’s false teachers (vv. 3, 13-15). Just as Satan deceived Eve’s mind in Gen. 3, so false teachers deceive the minds of believers and lead them away from the truth. “Simplicity” (v. 3) means single-hearted devotion. We cannot serve God and mammon. How important it is for the church to stay true to the Word of God! Religious leaders today try to give us another Jesus, and not the Christ Paul preached; or another Spirit, and not the Holy Spirit of God; or another Gospel, and not the Gospel of God’s grace (see Gal. 1). The only defense against spiritual adultery is faithfulness to the Word of God. How jealous we should be over the church for which Christ died!"
Author: Wiersbe, Warren W.
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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KnowHim
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And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:3 through Matthew 7:5 (KJV)
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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The concern about fellowship is that when you get together, it is the Lord Jesus Christ you seek. He is to be the head of the Church (body of believers).
That is why Jesus said two or three, so someone did not say you had to have a mega church building to fellowship with Him. All people are made different. Some like a crowd and some don’t. It is great if you can get 1000’s of people together and focus on Jesus, but it seems that most of the large Churches have lost their first love and do not focus on Jesus Christ but on the building, programs, etc…
Again, very presumptuous to say MOST of the large Christian churches have lost their first love without having first-hand knowledge of this as fact other than the fact that they are large.
Of course, church size seems to be your issue with every topic and was not really the focus of my concern for this thread.
As far as your stated "concern" for fellowship and in "seeking" Jesus, just keep in mind that seeking Jesus often entails just loving people (remember the two greatest commands?). That means that you who are seeking do not have to quiz and judge someone on their relationship with Christ before meeting with them...just love them and let the Love of Christ in you show and help grow their desire for them to seek what they just might not be seeing.
People are never going to care what you know, anyway, until they know that you care.
Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievences you many have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. Colossians 3:12-14
If I speak in tounges of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-2
That last verse stings me every time I read it! And we think we are so righteous somtimes!
Forgive me Father! ![[Prayer]](graemlins/prayer.gif)
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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KnowHim
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The test of an instructor in the Christian Church is that he is able to build me up in my intimacy with Jesus Christ, not that he gives me new ideas, but I come away feeling I know a bit more about Jesus Christ. - Oswald Chamber
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Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house. - Ezekiel 12:2
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
There seems to be an emphasis, as the above quote illustrates, to a pulling away of Christian fellowship on this board.
First of all you seem to be the one that is saying that as I have not seen it. Just because to some of us it looks like the Church in the USA has mostly turned into a large country club and forgotten its first love, which is suppost to be Jesus Christ. Does not mean we think believer should not fellowship. I believe it is most important to fellowship with other born-again believers. But most important is to know Jesus Christ. You can go to heaven and live for eternity with Jesus Christ by knowing Him, but you can not go to heaven by fellowshiping in His name and never knowing him.
The quote came from the below article and Chip Brogden in no way is saying not to fellowship. He is saying it is more important to know Jesus Christ then it is to have your country club. Know Jesus first and far most, then when you get together with other born-again believers you will have the same Spirit because you know Him and not because you know of Him and want to play church.
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Matthew 18:20 (KJV)
The concern about fellowship is that when you get together, it is the Lord Jesus Christ you seek. He is to be the head of the Church (body of believers).
That is why Jesus said two or three, so someone did not say you had to have a mega church building to fellowship with Him. All people are made different. Some like a crowd and some don’t. It is great if you can get 1000’s of people together and focus on Jesus, but it seems that most of the large Churches have lost their first love and do not focus on Jesus Christ but on the building, programs, etc…
Below is the article where the quote came from:
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Lonely, But Never Alone
There are many in the Body of Christ who are in transition between "going" to church and "being" the Church. The Lord is speaking to many at once and calling them aside from the traditional church building meeting to gather together in homes. The more in tune with the Lord we become, the more dissatisfied and uncomfortable we become with what is being said and done in His Name. Yet, there is an uncomfortable pause between where we used to be and where we are called to be. It is a lonely time in which we will be misunderstood by many that have not seen what we have seen.
What God is impressing upon many of us who are in-between the church as a building and the church as a lifestyle is how to walk ALONE. We must not forsake the assembling of ourselves together when we are able to do so; yet God would have us learn to fellowship with Christ, even it means to take the lonely path.
Many times the desire to find other "like-minded believers" is not a spiritual desire. It is rather our emotion, our soul, which longs to be with people who understand us. We must love not our life (Greek: soul life) and be willing to go for a time without the comfort and fellowship of brothers and sisters if God has called us unto Himself. If we simply MUST be in the accompaniment of other brothers and sisters in order to have any sense of Christ then we are not abiding in Him as we ought.
In many parts of the world brothers and sisters in Christ are not able to meet together because of persecution. They would certainly desire to do so if they could, but if they cannot, how will they maintain fellowship and connectivity to the Body if they are unable to gather? Why, they must know Christ as Fellowship. Abiding in Him, connected to the Head, they maintain oneness with the rest of the Body.
Someone will say, "We are not persecuted. We have the freedom to gather together. Should we not take advantage of our liberty as Christians and fellowship at every opportunity?" The answer is yes, we should thank God for our freedom and make the most of it. But my question to you is, what will your spiritual state be like when that liberty is no longer permitted? Have you resources within yourself to stay in your place of abiding in Christ, or is your usefulness to God limited by your ability to fellowship with others? Can you maintain connectivity to the Body when isolated, or will you grow faint and fall away?
Some are able to maintain a sweet spirit so long as they are in fellowship with other believers. But when God allows that fellowship to be interrupted, observe how quickly that sweet spirit turns sour. They will even acknowledge their poor state and say things like, "My temper has become awful. It is because I have been out of church. I must go back this Sunday." Then they will go back to church, feel uplifted, and the sweet spirit returns. Sadly, this is the experience of a majority of people who have not learned to take Christ as their Life. Is this walking in the Spirit? It is not.
It is true that "whenever two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am." Praise God for such truth. It is equally true that, "I am with YOU always (singular)." We do not want to be lone ranger Christians who do not seek fellowship with other members of Christ's Body. At the same time, we cannot allow the absence of such fellowship to make us despondent or depressed, should we be deprived of it. If it causes us to fall away, then perhaps this is the reason God allows us to go through periods of solitude, that we may be reduced to CHRIST as our Fellowship.
When we find ourselves in such a place, let us not be too quick to seek out others until we have reaped the benefits of being alone with God. Let us remember that Christ's Body is a spiritual Body. Being in the physical presence of other members does not make us more of a member, and being removed from the physical presence of other members does not make us any less a member. Of course the exact opposite is true for those meeting together as an institution; without their physical presence and support they lose place as a member. But not Christ's Body, the Church. We are not more or less of a member by reason of our physical contact or lack of physical contact with one another.
And again, we may thirst for fellowship not so much to edify the Body as to be edified ourselves - a mindset carried over from when we used to go to church to "be fed" once or twice a week. If this is the case, it is no wonder that God would have us look to Him alone as our Edification and learn to draw upon Him before placing us in close proximity with others. One weakness of the institutional church is that the majority of members are coming to receive, to be edified, to be encouraged, to be fed. It is all "take", and very little "give". Hence, there is little Life.
When we learn to draw upon Christ as our Source we will have abundance to give away. Fellowship with others cannot replace our daily abiding in Him. If we gather together in the Name of the Lord, yet outside of Christ, we will have much religious carrying's on but little Life to impart to one another. God would have us look to His Son as our Life, and as we do we find our need is met. Then, when we gather together, we are givers and not takers, and with all giving out of Christ, we have the blessing we sought.
Let us press into Christ with all our heart, and not be discouraged if we find ourselves temporarily without the fellowship and comfort of our brothers and sisters. Though we are lonely, we are never alone.
by Chip Brogden
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Pleasemarantha: I am really floored by your comments. First of all I do not know who you consider "my group" to be. I also do not know who has posted in Carmela's thread and who has not.
You can think that it is cold if you like and judge any that you like including me for not posting in Carmela's thread, and I cant speak for anyone else only for my self, but I assure you that you do not know why I did not post or how I was affected or felt about Carmela's post or you would not have written such a post to me. You also do not know how I responded to Carmela's post but GOD does.
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Pleasemaranatha
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Linda,
You said this above in your posting to Tracy.
[I dont think that this what Brogden speaks of at all and I dont think that it is either the mind of "this board". I think that it is somewhat presuptuous of you to think that you know what personal fellowship any of us have in our communities, and I think that it is also presumptuous of you to think that because we fellowship on this board together that it is a cold fellowship.]
One question.......why haven't any but one of your group posted on Carmela's tragic post about her daughter?
You all have been in and out of this site without posting anything comforting to her.
Is that not cold???????? Where is the compassion of Christ Jesus?
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My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning. Psalms 130 verse 6
Joyce
Posts: 308 | From: Missouri | Registered: Oct 2005
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trafield
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I think more what Brogden speaks of and what that particular thread spoke to is the not letting things.. whether they be church related activities, events, worship services, what ever things church related that can busy people, come to be a substitute for our relationship/fellowship with Christ .
Have you never met someone who was active in the church go, doing, serving, all the time and that had become their relationship?
I have met people who was active in church and in their service were fellowshipping all the time. Show me someone that is as active as you say, and I will show you someone who is in fellowhip with others all the time.
However, I have met people who have become "little islands" to themselves and do nothing but watch church on television and only discuss the things of God on the internet.
quote:
Respectfully, Tracy, I realize that we may not agree on their being a potential here for trouble, but whether you agree with that or not, I don't think that you should make Brogden to be saying something he is not... and I dont think that you should be making such presumptions as you have made in your post above about this board or the people on it. I think based on first hand knowledge that the presumtions are in error.
Respectfull, Linda, I think it is presumptuous of you to think that your first-hand knowledge trumps my own in this matter.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Tracy: I totally disagree with you on this statement...
quote:
There seems to be an emphasis, as the above quote illustrates, to a pulling away of Christian fellowship on this board. The above quote shows a double-mindedness that seems to have invaded this very web site where it is very easy to replace real fellowhip with an impersonal, cold fellowship from behind a computer and in the comfort of one's own home.
I dont think that this what Brogden speaks of at all and I dont think that it is either the mind of "this board". I think that it is somewhat presuptuous of you to think that you know what personal fellowship any of us have in our communities, and I think that it is also presumptuous of you to think that because we fellowship on this board together that it is a cold fellowship.
I know that many of the people here are actively involved in their own church groups and in their communities and I know that the online fellowship for some of us actually is rather unique here from what I have seen on other boards where the members are alost completely anonomous to each other and have no fellowship with each other off the board. Several of us here actually have fellowship with each other through phone, mail, and email, and even some in person, off this board.
I think more what Brogden speaks of and what that particular thread spoke to is the not letting things.. whether they be church related activities, events, worship services, what ever things church related that can busy people, come to be a substitute for our relationship/fellowship with Christ .
Have you never met someone who was active in the church go, doing, serving, all the time and that had become their relationship?
I have a friend that this happened to. She is a lovely Christian lady... a widow. Because she is alone in this life and she does love the Lord very much and she has a very servants heart, it was easy for her to be drawn into this... when ever someone asked she was there ready tos serve and with joy.. but there came a time when she came to realize that "church" activity had become her life and not Christ. Her own personal walk had come to suffer as she was neglecting her first love for the sake of being busy serving him and thus fellowshipping with the body.
I think that Chip's article spoke to this.. to letting things, people, doing come to replace that quiet intimate individually personal relationship with Christ, and as you have said Balance MUST be the thing we seek. We must be full whether alone or surrounded by brothers and sisters. Christ must be our LIFE.
I dont think that Brogden is advocating "going it alone first" I am not sure where you see that. I think that he is advocating not letting activity with people or things that we do in service to HIm become a substitute for HIM.
I think that is a really important message for today because it there is a movement among us at this time to work work work for the Lord. Maybe you have not read of this.
I read a recent Barna poll where pastors were asked to evalute the spiritual condition of their congregations. A huge percentage.. I dont want to quote exactly as I would have to take the time to look it up and I dont have the time at the moment, but a huge percentage used church attendance as a determining factor when saying they felt their congregations were doing fine spiritually... most of them only had maybe 3 criteria, but almost half of them used church sttendance alone! This to me is disturbing, but it is an example of what this article by Brogden addresses I think.
Then you add to that mindset the mindset of the PD movement that says there is coming a reformation and that reformation will be a reformation unlike the last that was based on creeds, this one will be based on works and I can again see there is a problem lurking.
Respectfully, Tracy, I realize that we may not agree on their being a potential here for trouble, but whether you agree with that or not, I don't think that you should make Brogden to be saying something he is not... and I dont think that you should be making such presumptions as you have made in your post above about this board or the people on it. I think based on first hand knowledge that the presumtions are in error.
God Bless,
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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When we learn to draw upon Christ as our Source we will have abundance to give away. Fellowship with others cannot replace our daily abiding in Him. - Chip Brogden
There seems to be an emphasis, as the above quote illustrates, to a pulling away of Christian fellowship on this board. The above quote shows a double-mindedness that seems to have invaded this very web site where it is very easy to replace real fellowhip with an impersonal, cold fellowship from behind a computer and in the comfort of one's own home.
I agree with the first sentence of this quote. When we put Jesus first in all that we do, we will be filled with His Spirit and will be living a true Spirit-filled life. And though the quote acknowledges that, if we do this, we will have an abundance to give away it also states that fellowship cannot replace our abiding in Him.
Christian, this "giving away" of what God has filled us with is not just for the unbeliever that we are certainly called to speak Life into. This "giving" should also be done in regular fellowshipping with other saints to learn, edify, encourage, and pray.
The Word of God says (Galatians 2:20) that, as Christians, it is no longer we that live, but Christ within us. So when we are fellowshipping with other believers, we are fellowshipping with Him! You cannot seperate the two Truths.
Should we continue to pray individually and seek one-on one time with the Lord? Absolutely! But let us not get out of balance with a false teaching that says we have to go it alone for a while first. God has called us to fellowship with other believers and is equally important in seeking Him and growing in Him, and is all a part of abiding in Him.
God bless you all,
Tracy
Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another- and all the more as you see the Day approaching. -Hebrews 10:23-25
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