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Author
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Topic: The movie: "da Vinci Code"
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Eric Byron
Community Member
Member # 5387
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kindgo:
http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html
Here are nine key errors that The Da Vinci Code promotes:
The Bible was put together by the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine.
The Gospels have been edited over the years.
Jesus was not the Son of God.
Jesus was not viewed as God until the fourth century.
Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.
Mary Magdalene was to be given the rank of goddess.
Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a daughter named Sarah.
Mary Magdalene appears in Leonardo Da Vinci's painting, "The Last Supper."
The Catholic Church has been trying to keep this information a secret.
I'm not going to get into this with them!!!!!
I'm not going to get into this with them!!!!!!
I'm not going to get into this with them!!!!!!!
I'm not going to get into this with them!!!!!!!!
I'm not going to get into this with them!!!!!!!!!
Posts: 18 | Registered: Dec 2005
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Kindgo
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Member # 2
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posted
http://www.raptureready.com/rap16.html
The Da Vinci Code Nonsense
On the occasion of the release of the movie version of The Da Vinci Code, I decided it was time for me to address this controversy. The book has already sold more than 60 million copies, and has received a huge amount of coverage in the press.
Dan Brown's book has been out for three years now. The reason I didn't feel the need to comment on the book until now has been because I see it as part of a continuous plan to erode the authority of the Bible.
A few weeks ago, the gnostic Book of Judas was being promoted by the press. In January, "The Book of Daniel" was all the rage. Once Brown's book fades from bestseller list, some other collection of blasphemy will take its place.
After reviewing the content of The Da Vinci Code, I'm shocked at how something so riddled with factual errors can be given any amount of credibility. Because the book has reached millions of people, I do realize the need to set the record straight.
Here are nine key errors that The Da Vinci Code promotes:
The Bible was put together by the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine.
The Gospels have been edited over the years.
Jesus was not the Son of God.
Jesus was not viewed as God until the fourth century.
Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene.
Mary Magdalene was to be given the rank of goddess.
Jesus and Mary Magdalene had a daughter named Sarah.
Mary Magdalene appears in Leonardo Da Vinci's painting, "The Last Supper."
The Catholic Church has been trying to keep this information a secret.
The funny thing about trying to do any fact checking on The Da Vinci Code is that it quickly disintegrates under any amount of scrutiny. I watched two documentaries on the book and in both cases, the programs were unable to follow Brown's claims of "historical facts."
The New Testament writings were never under the control of one group that had the opportunity to choose what would be included in Scripture. Because early believers were constantly on the run, transcripts of the Gospels were quickly disseminated to all areas of the known world. If the Emperor of Rome decided to monkey with the text, the translation from North Africa and Asia would reveal his duplicity.
Dan Brown should have chosen an earlier date for his rewrite of the Bible. The canon was already set in stone nearly 200 years before Constantine came along.
While there are thousands of documents that support the authority of the Bible, Brown only has a single source for many of his claims. Some of them are simply laughable.
He relied on the publication, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," for information on the Mary Magdalene bloodline being traced to France. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" used documents provided by Pierre Plantard, a man who spent time in jail for fraud. In 1993, Plantard, under oath, admitted that he made up the bloodline scheme.
People who have studied church history all their lives are probably pulling their hair out over the claims made by The Da Vinci Code. The book is pure garbage. The only reason it is able to be presented as factual is because the average Christian does not understand church history.
The Da Vinci Code is the product of a demonically inspired marketing machine. The book has received media coverage by hundreds of major media organizations. With all the free advertising the book has received, how could it not be a best-seller? The book has been so pervasive, I'm surprised The Food Channel hasn't jumped on the bandwagon by having a show that features Da Vinci-area Italian cuisine!
Dan Brown's book has no hope of altering Church history. Its major impact will be in causing people to feel more comfortable with their own lack of faith. They can reason that the Bible is so unreliable, there is no need to worry about the state of their eternal soul.
Ian McKellen, who had a supporting role in the movie, gave a good summation of this type of attitude. "Well, I've often thought the Bible should have a disclaimer in the front saying this is fiction."
Tom Hanks plays the lead character in The Da Vinci Code movie. He recently appeared on Saturday Night Live, opening the show by taking several questions from cast members dressed as clergy and Jesus himself. Comedian Chris Parnell, in the guise of a cardinal, asked the actor, "I was wondering when you were making the film and you were meeting with the producers and writers and the director, in all that creative process, did you ever wonder what it would feel like to burn for eternity in hell?"
The question was designed to poke fun at The Da Vinci Code controversy. I found the question ironic in that Mr. Hanks and everyone associate with the book some day will have to revisit that question. When that day comes, it no longer will be a joking matter.
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book" (Rev 22:18-19).
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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Member # 3984
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posted
If the christian world do not think a sinful, misguided world whose main purpose is to serve self would not go further away from what basic christianity teaches because OF THE DA VINCI CODE- THAT PERSON HAS THEIR HEAD IN THE SAND.
Look around man! People within Christiandom are chopping away at the written word of God- saying it isn't inspired or even perserved. I love to be entertained within reason, but entertainment doesn't have to come with a great price.
To a non christian world, these issues are laughable. I see this in the Islamic people and Hindu people that live around me.
I think the Left Behind Series were well put together for what they were to do. I lean toward premillinist. I truly believe one day the rapture will happne- whether it happens before the millenium during or after- It doesn't matter. THE RAPTURE WILL HAPPENED.
FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY,they replace the church where Isreal should still be.
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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Robby
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Member # 448
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posted
David the $10,000 challenge is misleading in that no matter what you do, you won't get the $10,000. Even if you've kept all 10 Commandments (something I haven't done, but I digress...), it will always go to the screen that begins:
Perhaps you said that you have kept the first of the Ten Commandments, but the Bible says, “There is none that seeks after God” (Romans 3:11). So no one has kept that Commandment.
It doesn't matter how you answer, you won't get the $10,000 either way. I know they're trying to get across the importance eternal salvation, but I don't think dangling a false carrot like that really helps.
Now, about the "DaVinci Code" which is really a bunch of fiction. 1 Tim. 4:4 nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith. I remember my dad getting the book for a birthday present and being so excited, then he read it and he was completely disappointed with it. Now,I never read the Dan Brown's book, because I could see it would've been a waste. You've seen the controversy it stirs up.
Certainly if you're going to preach to someone about the truth of the matter, then you'd better be informed and there a number of good Christian authored books that can help. Personally, if I read anything on DaVinci, it would probably just be his biography.
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Chaplain Bob
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Member # 5019
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by hardcore:
quote:
Originally posted by Eric Byron:
Well I doubt the DA Vinci Code is going to do any more harm than the Left Behind novels did a few years ago.
Hmmm. Brian McLaren (leader of the Emergent Church) said the same thing.
It's a pretty ridiculous claim - IMHO.
The "Left Behind" books and films are based on a particular opinion of what will happen and should be labeled as such. Not all Christians believe in that theory. Sadly, both the authors and many who see the films do believe their theory is the truth.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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hardcore
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Member # 4492
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eric Byron:
Well I doubt the DA Vinci Code is going to do any more harm than the Left Behind novels did a few years ago.
Hmmm. Brian McLaren (leader of the Emergent Church) said the same thing.
It's a pretty ridiculous claim - IMHO.
Posts: 627 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Eric Byron
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Member # 5387
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posted
Well I doubt the DA Vinci Code is going to do any more harm than the Left Behind novels did a few years ago.
All it's going to come down to is what people choose to believe or not believe in the end.
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becauseHElives
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posted
The problem is people want it both ways...
They want the world and the Kingdom of Yahweh both.
But Yeshua said you can not searve two masters.
Yeshua said they hated me and those that follow my teachings will be hated also.
It is hard to stand againt the world, all its ideas and popular fads.
Eve tried to debate with Satan and where did that lead?
The only debate is as Yeshua demonstrated, Satan it is written. And when you quote scriture make sure your quoting it correctly.
Eve tried quoting scripture but she quoted it wrong.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eric Byron:
If someone ask you why you believe as you do and then throws the De Vinci Code in your face ,just tell them to you its a work of fiction and not the truth. And wish them a nice day and go with God.
This is a very good point and one that I overlooked. The Da Vinci Code is actually just a fictional book. It is fiction. It's not written like a thesis or written to be anything but fiction.
Unfortunately though by the way it is presented by the news media, they make it seem like it's a thoughtful researched documentary about Jesus with infallable proofs.
The fact that this is a fictional writing seems to get lost in the debate.
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Eric Byron
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posted
Well I really wasn't looking to start a debate on how's and whys Christianity came about. I think what I have been trying to get is what people choose to believe in. Some believe that the Bible is the Devine word of God and although written by human hands it was influenced by God himself. And Christ is his Son.
Others look at faith from a different angle (Or religion) and have a whole different philosophy. And The De Vinci Code is no doubt going to influence some people (I should really read the book now it's in paper back and see what it's all about). But in the end it all fall on what does anyone believe?
If one believes the Bible is the Devine word of God. Then that is what is important to them. And I would never try and change their mind of views.
If one believes the Bible was created by a bunch of people under the rule of Constantine the Great. And again that's is their view and I accept it as such.
And if someone decided the De Vinci Code is the end all be all of faith (Which I very much doubt it will). Then there you go. It should not shake anyone's view or faith who really believes in something.
If someone ask you why you believe as you do and then throws the De Vinci Code in your face ,just tell them to you its a work of fiction and not the truth. And wish them a nice day and go with God.
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
Eric,
This is probably Not the right forum to discuss this issue in and it is a different topic from the topic of this thread. I've started a new thread in the "Bible Topics and Study" section (first section of the board) where this can be discussed.
Here's a direct link to the new thread: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=004661
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Eric Byron
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Member # 5387
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posted
Jesus Christ was a historical figure of staggering influence. Perhaps the most enigmatic and inspirational leader the world has ever seen. As the prophesied messiah, Christ toppled Kings, inspired millions and founded new philosophies. His life was recorded by thousands of followers across the land. More than eight gospels were considered for the new testament and yet only a relative few were chosen for inclusion.
The fundamental irony of Christianity is that the Bible of today was collate by the pagan Roman emperor Constantine the Great. Who as a life long pagan was only baptized on his deathbed when he was too weak to protest. In his day Rome's official religion was sun worship. The cult of Sol Invictus, or the Invincible Sun.
It is because of Constantine that a great many pagan ritual and images have now become canonized into Christianity. Like the Egyptian sun disk became halos of Christ's saints. The pictograms of Isis nursing her miraculously conceived son became the blue print for the Virgin Mary nursing Jesus.
The Bible as most know it came about at a gathering known as the Council of Nicaea. It was there that many voted just what would be part of the Bible and what would not. As well as various dates of holy events. Such as Christ being born in December 25th, when Easter would fall and so on.
But the really big one was it was there that the divinity of Christ as the Son of God was decided. Up until then Christ was viewed by his followers as a mortal man. The establishment of Jesus being the "Son of God" was officially proposed and voted on by the Council of Nicaea. And from what I have read it was a very close vote.
After that anyone who said otherwise was often called a heretic or out to death. Any text that were found that went against this vision of the new growing faith of Christianity were destroyed.
But some have survived over the years. Like the Coptic Scrolls in 1945 at Nag Hammadi. You can read some of it here
http://www.stshenouda.com/coptman/coptmss1.htm
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SoftTouch
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Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eric Byron:
Bottom line... what do you choose to believe?
The True Bottom Line is: What you Choose to believe will decide where you spend Eternity!
The Bible was written By God, Through the Prophets and His Saints. The Scripture is Divinely Inspired and is our God Given Authority. The Cannon of Scripture that was included in the Bible are the Same Books which were used by the 1st Church (which was overseen by the Apostles themselves). Any books that were left out were left out because they were not Accepted by the First Church as being Divinely Inspired, but were more "Gnostic" (Which is a False Religion, which now days we call "New Ageism").
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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Caretaker
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posted
Redemption comes through faith alone in Christ alone, as found in the Word of God and is the Word who is God manifest in the flesh.
A false "christ" contrary to the Word, brings false redemption and leads the blind into continued condemnation. Those writings and presentations which present a false christ are heresy and an abomination leading to eternal condemnation and judgement.
Believe anything you want for the pathway of destruction is broad and easily traveled unto destruction.
Believe on the Lord jesus Christ for salvation and enter the narrow gate for access to Glory.
2 Tim. 3:
1: This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2: For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3: Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4: Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5: Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6: For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7: Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8: Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9: But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10: But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11: Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12: Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13: But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14: But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15: And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
1 John 4:
1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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SoftTouch
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by trafield:
I do not have to study books on withcraft to speak on the Eternal Love of Jesus,....
I would Never do that either! Now that (to me) would be considered learning the deep things of Satan (IMHO). ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
As you probably remember, I've done a LOT of research on the Illuminati and how they're planning to bring about certain events, but I draw the line when it comes to learning about their rituals, spells, or incantations. I've spoken much in the past against their plans and actions because I've read so much on what they're planning (but not the satanic rituals they use to bring them about... I just know that they exist and not what exactly they are - and I don't wanna know!).
I believe this book/movie to be another 'ploy' of theirs to decieve. Another attempt to discredit the Diety of our Precious Lord and Savior. For Myself, I am satisified to use the works of those with Greater Discernment and Muturity then I possess to speak against their Heresy. But... That means that Someone had to have the Maturity and Discernment to research those things so that I could read their articles and use them as sources. I'm Thankful for the Watchmen that the Lord has given us to bring the things of the Darkness into the Light of God's Truth.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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trafield
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quote:
It all depends on who you are and what you choose to believe in. There is a lot out there and I very much doubt we understand it all. All religious text (Sadly the Bible is included in this) are written by men and women. There has never been one all power holy definition from God himself that floated out of the air and landed upon the ground for all to see and read (And would it not be great if something did. Because then we could all say, "Hey this came from God himself.").
Of course, if you do not believe the Bible is inerrant and was written by God through men, and believe that it contains errors of man, then one would wonder why you believe anything it says.
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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Eric Byron
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Member # 5387
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posted
I never read the Da Vinci Code. Not because I am not interested in what it has to say or anything. Just never had the time. But I have studied faith, religion for... well all my life. I've read the Bible. The Koran, The Book of Ibon. Several gospels of Christ that never made it into the Bible when Constantine first decided to put the big book together. Some of which had a take the Jesus has a more human side to him other than the more all power divine being you find with the pages of the modern Bible most people know. Some even suggest there was more between Christ and Mary Mandolin (That they were husband and wife and had kids) and she was meant to be his successor after passing from this realm. Does this mean people have the blood line of Christ in them? Who knows.... Better still who cares? And that's the question.
It all depends on who you are and what you choose to believe in. There is a lot out there and I very much doubt we understand it all. All religious text (Sadly the Bible is included in this) are written by men and women. There has never been one all power holy definition from God himself that floated out of the air and landed upon the ground for all to see and read (And would it not be great if something did. Because then we could all say, "Hey this came from God himself.").
But since we do not have that book, it then depends on who you are and what you choose to believe in. Some people are going to believe in what the Da Vinci Code has to say. Other will dismiss it and go on with their day. Some will think it's the work of Lucifer to distort the works of God. Other it will make them look to the Bible and start their own studies on it's veracity.
Bottom line... what do you choose to believe?
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BrazilianMommy
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posted
trafield - I did not read your last post and I believe we agree on the same thing.
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Jesus loves you
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BrazilianMommy
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trafield - Yes everybody is hurting but I do not think I can get anywhere trying to convince a person of that. My point is that no debate will reach someone's heart no matter how much you learn about their point-of-view, their books etc. You will reach someone with love when they need you.
I should not have used the word hurting since everyone is suffering with a gap in aheart and with guilt. I meant to say someone hurting for being sick, or in need of an advice, a plate of food, a shoulder to cry. This person will be more willing to know about God and you can talk heart-to-heart and not head-to-head.
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Jesus loves you
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trafield
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posted
Hello, Softouch! ![[hug]](graemlins/hug.gif)
I agree we are suppose to defend the faith and the Truth. And I agree that it could be helpful to know the basics of their reasoning as a starting point in witnessing to the lost.
I just don't believe we need to train ourselves in the false to speak the Truth. I do not have to study books on withcraft to speak on the Eternal Love of Jesus, that he is God, and that without Him that WE will all die in OUR sins.
Again, we Christians live by faith and not by sight.
If others do not have the faith that the bible is the Word of God and believe it is full of errors, then no amount of reasoning about what they believe will get them to see otherwise...however, speaking the word of Truth, which is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, can make a difference regardless of what they believe.
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SoftTouch
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posted
I’ve been considering this issue for some time now (and our Pastor even spoke on it yesterday) and I’m convinced that it is not wrong for a Strong Believer to research this issue to be able to speak out against it.
This is no different then researching the Word of Faith Heresy, or the Illuminati Conspiracy to see what the Enemy of our Souls is up to and how he’s deceiving so many.
This is NOT learning the Deep things of Satan… this is researching the ‘devices’ he’s using to deceive and not learning ‘how to use (or practice)’ Satan’s so called “Deep things”.
I know I’ve taken the below quote out of context, but I believe it brings up a very important issue. Especially when added to the quote below it…
quote:
2 Corinthians 2:11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.
quote:
Ephesians 5: 11And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
According to the Blue Letter Bible, the word Reprove means:
Reprove: in Greek: elegcho {el-eng'-kho}
1) to convict, refute, confute
a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
a) by word
1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
b) by deed
1) to chasten, to punish
I submit, how can we do this if we are not aware of what the particular work of darkness is? Therefore we should be “Not ignorant of his devices” (Satan’s devices that is). However, I would not suggest that a New Believer (or one who is not very Mature in his walk) see this movie as it could cause them to struggle.
But for those who are mature enough and feel led to research this, then I don’t see that they are wrong in doing so for the above reasons. I am not one who feels led to do this personally.
(I haven't read the majority of this thread, but I did want to add this as it's been on my mind a lot!)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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trafield
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posted
quote:
I wouldn't trust Jack Van Impe's version either. He's just another slick salesman. Is his video free? (I doubt it.)
Phillipians 1:15-18
15It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.18But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.
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WhiteEagle
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by BrazilianMommy:
becauseHElives - Agree with you 100%
My opinion about watching the movie - The "spies" already did that for us, there are material from pastors showing the discrepancies about the DVC book with historic facts about the true bible. Jack Van Impe is one of them. If I would get myself informed I would get one of these videos. Just in case someone comes to inquire me. Because I've learned that we should be preaching to the hurting, to the needy, the ones that already see that they need God. Not to those that so desperated seeking something that says that what they are doing is right.
People are just making their own gods, not a scupture image, but a spiritual imaginary image of a god that says 'do whaever you want'.
Aren't all people hurting? Are we to turn our backs on people who seek to make their own gods?
If we do, then we turn our back on the whole human race.
I wouldn't trust Jack Van Impe's version either. He's just another slick salesman. Is his video free? (I doubt it.)
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BrazilianMommy
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posted
becauseHElives - Agree with you 100%
My opinion about watching the movie - The "spies" already did that for us, there are material from pastors showing the discrepancies about the DVC book with historic facts about the true bible. Jack Van Impe is one of them. If I would get myself informed I would get one of these videos. Just in case someone comes to inquire me. Because I've learned that we should be preaching to the hurting, to the needy, the ones that already see that they need God. Not to those that so desperated seeking something that says that what they are doing is right.
People are just making their own gods, not a scupture image, but a spiritual imaginary image of a god that says 'do whaever you want'.
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Jesus loves you
Posts: 83 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2005
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Amen David. I think that is sound advice.
Redkermit: For what it is worth.
My opinion is that this book/movie is one that we should not be encouraging anyone Christian or Non Christian to read or see and in fact we should be discouraging all from seeing or reading it.
It is a book that we should be prepared to stand against with regard to the lies it speaks of our savior.
I am glad some Christians have read it as I can have some idea of what it is about and that it should be avoided without having to read it myself.
When I read articles like the one that Kindgo just posted by MacArthur, it seems to me that he speaks with knowledge about the book and the writer and I respect his gaining that knowledge, that he can speak credibly against this work.
My husband bought it at a yard sale for .25 and read it and I am glad he did. He can now tell me what Brown has said that I do not have to be ignorant when speaking to someone who has seen it.
I have read the Gospel of Thomas and other pseudo apocryphial books and so it made for good discussion with my husband, as these are the things that Brown used. As Drew has said, there are many many gnostic manuscripts and they are not for everyone to read. Surely they are not for someone who has little of weak knowledge of the scriptures, but for some they are of value..for me they have been of value as much of the apostasy we have today is nothing more than the same old apostasy re-packaged and knowing that gives one a certain amount of discernment. It also gives a more clear understanding of what the Apostles were dealing with in their time. I have for example read the some in the Talmud.. this gives me a much more clear understanding of the Pharisee than I see many people have... it helps me to understand the world in which Jesus walked and the mindset of the people.
I would never rail against someone like Hardcore... who I know does not seek entertainment in wordly things, and is very solidly grounded in scripture and fundamental in doctrine.. for reading or seeing this work, as I know that she has read or seen it only that she can speak against it from a point of knowledge as opposed to hear say and I respect that, as I would desire to speak from the same place if it were me who was speaking on a subject such as this.
That is my opinion on the subject.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Hitch
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
UGH! There's only one word for this JUNK... ANTI-CHRIST! ![[mad2]](graemlins/mad2.gif)
This reminds me so much of what Drove me out of the United Methodist Chrurch at the end of the 70's.
The Young Adult Class got a "New Teacher" who was teaching from a book we'd never heard of before. It was called "Illusions." (The name says a lot huh?) As he read about how the Disciples got jealous when Jesus Kissed Mary M. on the lips... I got up, Stated (in not so clam a voice) "This Is Blasphemy!" and walked out. Several of my friends came into the hall to try and calm me down and get me to come back in. I told them they could listen to that Blasphemy if they wanted to but I didn't want Anything to do with it. I reported the teacher to the Pastors (we had two) but they took up for him. I left that Chruch (which I had grown up in since the age of 5) and never returned.
Good for you and the Kingdom.
The difference here, and as I said, having read the book , it is a self described novel. Fiction. It makes no claim to be Truth, or even historcly based.
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SoftTouch
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UGH! There's only one word for this JUNK... ANTI-CHRIST!
This reminds me so much of what Drove me out of the United Methodist Chrurch at the end of the 70's.
The Young Adult Class got a "New Teacher" who was teaching from a book we'd never heard of before. It was called "Illusions." (The name says a lot huh?) As he read about how the Disciples got jealous when Jesus Kissed Mary M. on the lips... I got up, Stated (in not so clam a voice) "This Is Blasphemy!" and walked out. Several of my friends came into the hall to try and calm me down and get me to come back in. I told them they could listen to that Blasphemy if they wanted to but I didn't want Anything to do with it. I reported the teacher to the Pastors (we had two) but they took up for him. I left that Chruch (which I had grown up in since the age of 5) and never returned.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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WhiteEagle
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Kingo:
I've Always found John MacArthur to be solid and agree with his aritcle.
Just like Evolution sought to rewrite Bibical Creation and the timeline that God set out in Genesis, so do people like the author of the da Vinci Code seek to rewrite history under the illusion of truth seeking and overturning the fables of the Bible. They think of the Bible as a mythic book and are very determined to prove it so.
We've seen what has happened with Evolution since Darwin's time. Most secular and even some Christians are convinced that Evolution and the billions of years is the reality and not the Genesis account.
With the da Vinci code: the target is Jesus.
In the past people have tried to say He never existed, or that he really didn't rise from the dead, or that he wasn't really the Son of God, etc.
This one is trickier. It just makes Jesus look more human by marrying Mary Magdalene. It makes the church as the villans for covering up the "truth". In fact the Church even tries to kill people who are uncovering this truth. It makes Leonardo da Vinci look like a beleagered, but intelligent martyr that slyly finds a way to get the truth out.
(I haven't even read the book, but that's my guestimate of the plot) Am I right Hardcore?
So the plot pretends that Jesus' reputation is still "good", but he just happened to have married a woman. It was the later church leaders who felt it needed to covered up, and these "evil" church leaders glorified Jesus' reputation beyond what it really was.
(Hardcore, is this close to how the book goes?)
Anyway, the da vinci code is just one of many insiduous books out there now, that try to rewrite history.
As Christians we need to be ready with an answer.
Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004
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Kindgo
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I came across this and thought I would throw it out here....
John MacArthur's Take on the DaVinci Code
Dan Brown and The Da Vinci Code
How Should Christians Respond?
Dan Brown is an author with an agenda. He wants to revive ancient paganism and restore goddess worship to the world’s patriarchal religions. His bestselling novel, The Da Vinci Code, is a blatant attempt to overturn the historic record of God’s loving redemption with a tale of sex, intrigue, and conspiracy. To him, Christianity is nothing more than a patriarchal cover-up of the sacred feminine. Brown offers a feminine divinity reminiscent of the Garden of Eden—the same old temptation for a new age. Although Brown has attacked the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ, Christians should not view the revival of paganism as a threat, but rather as an opportunity for the gospel.
Dan Brown’s bestselling novel, The Da Vinci Code, is hitting the big screen this summer in a flurry of fanfare and controversy. That spells major success, in the millions, for Sony Pictures, director Ron Howard, and actor Tom Hanks. Dan Brown has already cashed in on the book—putting over $75 million into his bank account. With a chart-busting novel and millions in the bank, Brown is already fighting off the plagiarism hunters, one price of riches and fame.
Christians have a dog in this fight too. At stake is something more valuable than money—the truth about the Bible, the honor of Christ, and the eternal destiny of human souls are at stake. Dan Brown has drawn a line in the sand with his ideas, in the pages of The Da Vinci Code. That’s where Christians must show up in full armor, on the battleground of ideas. “We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God” to take “every thought captive to the obedience of Christ” (2 Corinthians 10:4-5).
Dan Brown Has a Pagan, Feminist Agenda
Dan Brown wants the world’s religions to return to the pre-Christian worship of gods and goddesses. This is a revival of paganism.
In 2004, Dan Brown spoke before the New Hampshire Writer’s Project about his quest to write The Da Vinci Code. That speech clarifies his purpose in writing—it’s more than just a story to him. Brown wants the world and its religions to return to the pre-Christian tolerance of goddess worship. Here’s what he said about the point of the entire novel, a point that he laments many people are missing:
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Prior to two thousand years ago, we lived in a world of gods and goddesses. Today we live in a world solely of gods. Women in most cultures have been stripped of their spiritual power, and our male dominated philosophies of absolutism have a long history of violence and bloodshed which continues to this day. I simply wrote a story that explores how and why this shift might have occurred, what it says about our past; and more importantly, what it says about our future. As I said earlier, history is written by the winners. The details are long lost, and in many cases, impossible to know. We can challenge and debunk details forever, but the fact remains in the major religions of the world women remain second class citizens. Why can’t there be women priests? Why is this even an issue?[1]
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Dan Brown is a self-proclaimed Christian, but not of the Bible-believing variety. He is a cultural Christian, a nominal Christian, who has rejected biblical absolutes and embraced the questioning skepticism of postmodernism.
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(I)f you ask three people what it means to be a Christian, you will get three different answers. Some feel it is sufficient simply to be baptized into a Christian church. Others feel you must accept the Bible as immutable, historical fact. Still others require a belief that all those who do not accept Christ as personal savior are doomed to hell. Faith is a continuum. We all fall on that line wherever we may fall, and by attempting to classify, and rigidly classify, ethereal concepts like faith, we end up debating the semantics to the point where we entirely miss the obvious. That is, that we are all trying to decipher life’s big mysteries—Where did we come from? What happens when we die, where are we going? What does all of this mean? And each of us must follow our own path to enlightenment. [2]
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Brown is quite willing to debate the issues, but don’t expect him to accept absolutes. He said,
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The world is a big place, and now more than ever there is enormous danger in believing we are infallible, that our version of the truth is absolute, that everyone who does not think like we do is wrong, and therefore an enemy. […] Everyone is entitled to believe what they believe. If you find someone’s ideas absurd or offensive, just listen to somebody else. [3]
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Dan Brown doesn’t want to get caught up in “debating the semantics,” he prefers to talk in broad concepts. That’s evident in his novel. Though he purports to have based the book on extensive research, the most important part of the book—where he communicates his fundamental thesis—is filled with embarrassing factual errors.
The Da Vinci Code Is Blatantly Anti-Christian
Dan Brown wants to overturn the historic record of God’s loving redemption with a tale of sex, intrigue, and conspiracy. He wants you to see Christianity as a patriarchal cover-up of the sacred feminine.
For his “Christian” readers who have grown up hearing the Bible’s truth claims, Brown knows he has his work cut out for him. He faces the rather large task of turning Christianity on its head and restoring the sacred feminine to the world. The crucial scene for his purpose has the protagonists, Robert Langdon and Sophie Neveu, learning secret “truths” from historian Sir Leigh Teabing. There in Teabing’s library, Brown unfolds his central thesis through the character Teabing.
Ready?
Teabing tells the uninitiated Sophie that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were lovers. At the crucifixion, Mary was pregnant with the child of their union. Aided by Joseph of Arimathea, Jesus’ uncle, she fled to France to give birth to a daughter named Sarah. That’s important because Jesus and Mary Magdalene were both of royal lineage (he says Mary was of the tribe of Benjamin). The royal bloodline continued to advance quietly for a few hundred years until it intermarried with French royal blood, creating the Merovingian bloodline.
According to Teabing, the emperor Constantine and the “founders” of Christianity knew about Jesus, Mary, and the royal offspring. To maintain the positions of power afforded by a patriarchal church and state, Constantine suppressed the “truth” about the royal couple, smeared Mary’s reputation by calling her a ***** , and foisted the myth of Jesus’ divinity upon the world.
The Brown/Teabing thesis asserts that Constantine canonized the myth of Jesus’ divinity in the Bible. At the Council of Nicea, Constantine and a group of bishops voted on which books would be included in the canon. Afterward Constantine tried to suppress and destroy the rest, thereby safeguarding the precious patriarchy for the good of the Roman Empire.
The wild tale continues with an indictment of organized Christianity. Church leaders, secret societies, and ignorant masses have allegedly continued through the centuries as co-conspirators in perpetuating the divine Jesus myth. They thus uphold patriarchy and suppress the rightful role of the goddess and the veneration of the sacred feminine. The founders of Christianity and its leaders have always known the “truth” and have been relentless in silencing anyone who seeks to uncover the truth.
Teabing praises enlightened souls like Leonardo Da Vinci who had the courage to question and challenge the system. Da Vinci and others encoded their works of art with clues to discovering the ancient secrets about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and the royal bloodline. In the spirit of Da Vinci, enlightened and courageous souls of today can use his clues, supported by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Gnostic texts at Nag Hammadi, to uncover the insidious conspiracy, educate the ignorant masses, and restore the long-suppressed worship of the goddess.
The Da Vinci Code Retells the Tale of an Ancient Liar
Dan Brown offers a feminine divinity reminiscent of the Garden of Eden—the same old temptation for a new age.
That’s quite a tale, but it’s not at all new. As Dan Brown says, “I am not the first person to tell the story of Mary Magdalene and the Holy Grail. This idea is centuries old. I am one in a long line of people who has offered up this alternative history.” He’s right. In fact, the line of people offering up “alternative history” began with Satan.
In the Garden of Eden, Satan seduced Eve with an “alternative history” that cast doubt on God’s character and Word. Into a perfect world of truth and absolutes, Satan asked the first question: “Indeed, has God said…?” He then told her a new tale; interestingly, it was also a story about the divine feminine. Satan told Eve, “God knows that in the day you eat from [the forbidden tree] your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God” (Genesis 3:5). Eve ate that fruit, as did Adam, and every human being since has had their eyes opened to the guilt, shame, pain, and death that results from sin.
The fundamental premise of Dan Brown’s novel is rooted in sinful skepticism. He encourages the reader to question the truth, to question Christ’s claims, to question the Bible. Brown tells a story in which Jesus is not who He said He is and God’s Word is not to be trusted. He then fills the authority vacuum with his ridiculous fable about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, the Holy Grail, and the sacred feminine.
Brown is not just writing a good piece of fiction—he’s on a spiritual quest. He isn’t an honest seeker either; he is committed to disbelieving the Bible and Jesus’ claims of divinity. In the words of his fictional Teabing, “The Bible is a product of man, my dear. Not of God. The Bible did not fall magically from the clouds. Man created it as a historical record of tumultuous times, and it has evolved through countless translations, additions, and revisions. History has never had a definitive version of the book.” [4]
Dan Brown’s disbelief about the Bible is a product of his commitment to historical skepticism. In his speech at the New Hampshire Writer’s Project, he said,
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First, when we read and interpret history, we are not interpreting the historical events themselves. We are interpreting written accounts of those events. In essence, we are interpreting people’s interpretations. And second, since the beginning of recorded time, history has always been written by the winners—those societies and belief systems that conquered and survived. Despite the obvious bias in this accounting method, we still measure the historical accuracy of a given concept by examining how well it concurs with our existing historical record. I should add that many historians now believe that in engaging the historical accuracy of concepts we should first ask ourselves a far deeper question: How historically accurate is history itself? In most cases we’ll never know the answer but that should not stop us from asking the questions. [5]
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But the Bible is not merely a product of man. “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21). Though written by men, the Bible is God’s Word. “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness” (2 Timothy 3:16). Dan Brown has moved beyond harmless fiction to challenge the Word of God and redefine Jesus according to his own idolatrous, blasphemous image. He has questioned God, cast doubt on His Word, and dismissed the sovereign claims of Christ.
Far-fetched tales with fanciful, conspiratorial claims have circulated for years. The general public dismissed them as such because they never gave much credence to something as unscientific as religion. Today, however, the climate is different. Cold, rational secularism has given birth to a nebulous, undefined spirituality. Dan Brown, a spokesman for that new spirituality, says, “What I have finally come to accept is that science and religion are partners. They are simply two different languages attempting to tell the same story. Both are manifestations of man’s quest to understand the divine. While science dwells on the answers, religion savors the questions.” [6]
Christians Should Use The Da Vinci Code As an Opportunity for the Gospel
Even though Dan Brown has attacked the Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ, Christians should not view the revival of paganism as a threat, but rather as an opportunity for the gospel.
The Da Vinci Code—novel, movie, media sensation—enters into a post-Christian climate. Whether it’s Dan Brown, Ron Howard, Tom Hanks, proponents of the divine feminine, secularists, and neo-pagans, non-Christians are co-conspirators in a cosmic rebellion against God. Nevertheless, they are our mission field. Were it not for the wondrous grace of God, you would be among them.
As you encounter people influenced by The Da Vinci Code, remember what the Bible says about the unbelievers, and have compassion. “[T]he god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God” (2 Corinthians 4:4). They are “futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart [is] darkened” (Romans 1:21). They are “dead in [their] trespasses and sins”; they walk “according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience”; and they are “by nature children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:1-3).
How should you respond? With zeal for the truth of Christ and the authority of God’s Word, you must defend the integrity, the veracity, and the authority of the Bible. Don’t worry; it’s not hard. Brown’s “extensive research” failed to produce accuracy on the simplest details of the Bible and church history. Take a little of your time to Read Albert Mohler’s commentary (albertmohler.com/commenta...006-04-12) and James White’s analysis (www.aomin.org/tdvc.html ). Prepare yourself to give an answer to those exposed to the book, the movie, or the media coverage.
Your commitment to see God honored in the culture should be manifest first of all in your testimony about Christ, “who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously” (1 Peter 2:23). In a spirit of gentleness, correct those who deny Jesus’ claims on their life (2 Timothy 2:24-26) and call them to repentance and the obedience of faith.
The current popularity of The Da Vinci Code is your opportunity to talk with friends and family, neighbors, co-workers, and even strangers about the topics Dan Brown has raised in his story. Embrace the challenge of The Da Vinci Code with compassion for hell-bound sinners, and seize this time as an evangelistic opportunity for the Kingdom of God.
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
Posts: 4320 | From: Sunny Florida | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by David:
So I would suggest if you are going to go see the movie or read the book, not suggesting that others do the same.
Although we have incredible liberty as christians, we are servants of all. If something we are at liberty to do offends an unsaved person, we must stop doing it, for the sake of the gospel. It has been well said that if Paul saw a Jew, he would hide his ham sandwich behind his back. We need to walk in that same spirit.
But take heed lest by any means this
liberty of yours become a stumblingblock
to them that are weak. - 1 Cor 8:9
Amen Brother, that is Advice with Much Wisdom ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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KnowHim
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So I would suggest if you are going to go see the movie or read the book, not suggesting that others do the same.
Although we have incredible liberty as christians, we are servants of all. If something we are at liberty to do offends an unsaved person, we must stop doing it, for the sake of the gospel. It has been well said that if Paul saw a Jew, he would hide his ham sandwich behind his back. We need to walk in that same spirit.
But take heed lest by any means this
liberty of yours become a stumblingblock
to them that are weak. - 1 Cor 8:9
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I am beating a dead horse. This is my opinion, we all have them.. You can think what you will of me for having the one I have.
I don't think any different of you over this. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what your opinion is , as you agreed with points from both sides. I think you did end up agreeing with the reading it to have credibility.
I can see the point of both sides also. I have no intention of watching the movie or reading the book. At this point, no one in my circle of influence has ever brought it up. It doesn't seem to be that big of a deal around here.
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I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked. (Ps. 84:10b)
1 John 2:6
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Caretaker
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I do not believe that one has to see the movie, to be able to present the truth in apologetics. However it is imperative to know what is presented and to be able to combat it specificly.
If one is prayed-up and cloaked in HIS Armor then one if led can study the book to ascertain specific heresy.
John had to be aware of what the gnostics taught to counteract it:
1 John 4:
1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Paul had to be aware of what the Judaizers were teaching to protect the Galations.
I studied the writings of Catherine Emmerich in order to understand where the screenplay for Mel Gibson's Passion movie came from. But my stand was very unpopular.
As Tracy says this is a very subtle and insidious presentation. One can garner the message without supporting the screenplay, and be able to counteract it with the truth.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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trafield
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I thank God for this discussion because it stirred the spiritual alarm in me and led me to send out the following email to my personal group:
I am sure you all have heard about the Davinci Code book and movie, and the stir that it is causing. Some are saying that this is the same old arguments against Christianity as in ages past. Perhaps this is so. But I feel in my Spirit that in these endtimes, that the attacks from the enemy are getting ever more cunning and deceptive and we truly need to be more alert and sober than ever before.
In listening to discussions from Christians on this topic, I have been hearing some disturbing things from within the Church. There are apparently many who feel that reading this book and/or watching this movie will help them in relating to the people embracing the blasphemy of the story. These Christians feel that if they watched the movie, they would be viewed more credibly by those they want to witness to.
Nothing can be further from the truth!
We Christians need to understand the critical nature of the battle we are in, and as such, be very careful to guard what goes into these bodily temples of ours. There is an old computer term, "garbage in, garbage out," meaning if programmers allow garbage into a program, then the program is going to perform poorly.
You see, what you put in is what will come out. Actually, this "garbage in, garbage out" phrase was given to us by God hundreds of years ago. It is phrased differently, of course, but it says essentially the same thing.
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sews. The one who sows, to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Galatians 6:7-8
Christians, we are to live by faith and not by sight. And faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. So do not be deceived!
If we are to live by faith of the unseen evidence of God, then how is learning more about darkness ever going to help you be a better witness to the Light?
2 Corinthians 6:14-18 tells us that we are not to be "yoked together with unbelievers," tells us to be seperate from them, and while touching "no unclean thing." 1 Timothy 5:22 warns us not to share in the sins of others and to keep ourselves pure. So clearly we need to be careful to what we expose our bodies and minds.
A Christian's intentions may be pure and true in wanting to be looked at more credibly by the world. But the fact remains that we are not of this world and it is the Spirit and His calling that makes us credible. So sitting for two hours subjecting the senses to blasphemy is not going help in one's witnessing any more than researching Playboy Maganzine and pornographic movies will help you in the witnessing of a sex addict. In fact, if you were to try this approach, then you would most likely become like the the one that you were originally wanting to witness to!
Christian, we do not need to expose ourseleves to sin to to know Righteousness, and we do not need to learn about blasphemy to teach Truth, for Light always exposes the darkness, not the other way around. So I implore you to keep your eyes focused on the perfector of our faith, Jesus Christ. He will give you the words you need to effectively witness to those in deception. Keep you eyes on Jesus and His Truth, regardless of what the world is saying, and you will witness on His terms, not the world's.
May the Lord help us secure our armor daily, and that His Spirit gives us the confidence and assurance we need to speak His Truth to a lost and rebellious world.
Even more so as we see the Day approaching.
May God bless you all,
Tracy
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Drew do you think that those early church fathers who wrote the apologetic responses to the gnostics knew what they had said?
Did Tertullian, read the writings of Valentinian or Marcion?
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Caretaker
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Does not the premice of the Da Vinchi Code defend its position by declaring a basis in about 40 gospels?
Does it not seem critical to understad where it developes its supposed credibility and be able to repudiate its foundation as well as declare the truth as found ONLY in the WORD?
In fact there were existing only about a dozen Gospels and the Four were confirmed as being valid by the Nicean council. It is also imperative to realize that many of the other "gospels" were in fact gnostic in nature, and presented a false Christ just as this Book/Movie do today.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, Redkermit, I can see your point. And that probably was Tracy's point too, though I did not see it at the time of his post. And if we are talking about reading the book for the sake of entertainment I think it is a very valid point. Although my assumption about this very thing and acceptance of Warren's book as Christian and thus good because someone said it was and not because I had read it caused me to buy it for someone and then feel like a fool for doing so once I had read it. I then had to go to that person and tell them why the book was not a good thing.
I am not defending Christians reading the Da Vinci Code any more than I would be defending Christians reading Harry Potter... for the sake of reading pleasure.
I am defending the good sense not to speak to the specifics of what one has said whether he be christian or heathen without knowing what he has said especially when speking to someone who does know what he has said.
I have not spoken against the Da Vinci Code... accept to say that it is a worldly book written by a worldly man and I personally do not know why we would expect it to be anything but blasphemy. How can anyone in the world speak or know the things of God?
I dont read fiction period and have not since the 70's. I have not read, nor do I have any desire to read the Da Vinci Code. I personally did not have the desire to read Warren's book either... I for the most part do not read much that is not the Bible; but I do think that when we talk against what someone says we ought to know what they have said. I think that this was the point that Hardcore was making in speaking of her credibility.
I am beating a dead horse. This is my opinion, we all have them.. You can think what you will of me for having the one I have.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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redkermit
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Hi Tracy:
quote:
To be honest, I think it is ironic, and a little scary that you would criticize Warren in the same argument for defending the watching of this blasphemous movie or the reading of the book.
I said it is ironic to me...it seems inconsistant to me that we would on one hand criticize a person for speaking against a book like the PDL because they had not read it and on the other criticise someone for reading The Da Vinci code before speaking against it.
I have seen this and I think it is odd...inconsistant, ironic.
Is it really inconsistant, though? Warren claims to be a Christian & writes to/for/regarding Christians and Christianity (and shepherds a flock). Dan Brown does not. He wrote a fictional book. I don't think it is really a valid comparison.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Hi Tracy:
quote:
To be honest, I think it is ironic, and a little scary that you would criticize Warren in the same argument for defending the watching of this blasphemous movie or the reading of the book.
I dont believe that I did criticize Warren in this thread; and I was not aware I was making an argument for the defending of watching this movie or reading the book.
I said it is ironic to me...it seems inconsistant to me that we would on one hand criticize a person for speaking against a book like the PDL because they had not read it and on the other criticise someone for reading The Da Vinci code before speaking against it.
I have seen this and I think it is odd...inconsistant, ironic. I was not slaming anyone or even thinking that anyone here in this thread had done that.. but it did strike me that this happens. If I offended you by seeing irony in that then please forgive me.
quote:
Lest you forget...we live by faith and not by sight. And faith being the substance of things hoped for and the assurance of things unseen, if you really think you are going to be a better witness of the Light because you learn more about darkness, then you are deceiving yourself.
Regarding the bold part... Actually, I do not think this at all. Those are your words not mine. I think that the scripture clearly says that we are NOT to learn the ways of the heathen. I would never consider learning about the occult for example that I could witness the Gospel to those in the occult. God has brought many people out of the occult and into the light and they are well able to speak intelligently against the occult and to witness to those who are in the occult.
I do not see that this is the same thing that we are talking about here.
quote:
Helpforhome,
As you said why is this book (movie)any different? Would you think it okay if your husband researches Playboy magazine and pornographic films so that he could learn more how to witness to those addicted to pornography?
No, I would not think it ok; I am sure that God has delivered men from pornography that can bridge their knowledge into the body and be powerfully effective ministers of God's truth and light and deliverance from pornography..
However, if my husband was going to speak against the writings of another on any subject, I would expect that my husband knew what that person had written either first hand or from a source that was credible enough for my husband to trust with his own reputation or credibility because if my husband spoke in error of this writer based on hearsay, my husband's credibility would be damaged.
I do not believe that the church is to partake in the entertainment of the world. I personally have little to no interest in the world's movies, books, or music. I agree with those who have spoken about not supporting these things with their time or money... that is at the very least good stewardship. I also believe that the other scriptures listed here and points made here regarding protecting your heart, focusing on Christ and things good, lovely, of virtue etc... all apply and are correct. But I do not see that reading this book for entertainment and reading it for the purpose of having knowledge of its contents that one can speak credibly against it are the same things. I believe that some Christians will be called to read it or see it that they can speak against it credibly, and when that happens I think that they should do so having made every effort not to support it financially, or causing someone to stumble by seeing them at the theater (such as checking it out at a library). I also think that they will be ones who are solidly grounded in faith and in scripture.
I am not talking about needing to read blasphemy to get someone saved; the only thing that can get someone saved it the Gospel and it has its own credibility to which I can add nothing! I am talking about my own credibility not to be one who speaks falsely against another. If I am going to state Brown said thus and such, I better know what Brown has said... or I lose my credibility.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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wparr
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AMEN brother AMEN
May I also add our witness (the power of Yahweh; to overcome temptations / things of the world, to walk in obedience to Y'shua's commands) is also important so that when we preach the foolishness of the cross of Y'shua - We have CREDIBILITY.
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becauseHElives
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My mother worked at a bank for 25 years, at the bank they were taught to recognize counterfeit money by studying the real thing. The more they knew about the real the less likely they were to be deceived by the phony. (This is not saying I advocate women working outside the home, I was raise a heathen)
Now people want to debate with the world to try to bring them into the Kingdom of Yahweh.
There is no debate that will convict a soul to repent and turn to Yahweh. Confess that they have broken Yahweh’s Holy Law and plead for His mercy.
Only Prayer and the Foolishness of Preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua as Savior , and mans need of the Savior of mankind to take upon Him the individual sins of those that will call upon His Name with a broken heart and a contrite spirit will be saved .
The kind of reasoning it takes to say I am going to watch something or read something unholy and blasphemous about my Savior so I can help somebody get saved, is the same reasoning that has filled the Church with tares.
Simply put that kind of reasoning is the blind leading the blind and one day they will both fall in or should I say be thrown into the pit, the lake of fire that will burn forever.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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trafield
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posted
Good scriptures, David. Here is another...
Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, and do not share in th sins of others. Keep yourself pure.
1 Timothy 5:22
Helpforhome,
As you said why is this book (movie)any different? Would you think it okay if your husband researches Playboy magazine and pornographic films so that he could learn more how to witness to those addicted to pornography?
Posts: 225 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Dec 2005
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trafield
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posted
quote:
Why is this book any different than any other?
I can tell you that God created the earth in 6 literal days and yes, indeed, I need no more credibility to say that than the fact that God has said it.
But, if I am going to say to you a physicist that the Biblical account of creation does not violate the Laws of Thermodynamics, then I wont have much credibility if I have no earthly idea about what Newton thought or taught.
Do I refuse to know anything of Newton's work because he was a unitarian? Do I never open my mouth to witness to a physicist should one cross my path in this life?
You can say that you don't have to see poop to know it smells, but the truth is we all know poop smells because we all defecate and we have all seen it.
You can say to me that Islam is a religion of peace and I might believe you, had I never read the Koran. I have read the Koran and I know that Islam is not a religion of peace and those many would label fanatical are not fanatical, but fundamental believers in their religion.
There are people who speak about what the Bible says who have never read it too. My experience is that they misrepresent the Bible and that hurts the witness of God and Christ in the world. I see them in about the same light as I see someone who would say that Dan Brown is a heretic, not knowing what Dan Brown has said.
It is ironic to me that the same people who would scream "Have you read the Purpose Driven Life?" if I were to speak against Warren, and pooh pooh me if I had not, would now pooh pooh me for reading the Da Vinci Code before I spoke against it or it's author. We are told that it is wrong to not having read Warren ourselves to rely on other people's works regarding him, but yet when the author is Brown we are to use the information out there and not seek to know for ourselves the truth of what he has or has not written.
To be honest, I think it is ironic, and a little scary that you would criticize Warren in the same argument for defending the watching of this blasphemous movie or the reading of the book.
Lest you forget...we live by faith and not by sight. And faith being the substance of things hoped for and the assurance of things unseen, if you really think you are going to be a better witness of the Light because you learn more about darkness, then you are deceiving yourself.
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KnowHim
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Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. - Philippians 4:8
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. - 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. - Rom. 8:6
Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life. Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee. Ponder the path of thy feet, and let all thy ways be established. Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil. - Proverbs 4:23-27
Just reading the bible and pondering what it means.
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hardcore
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
It is ironic to me that the same people who would scream "Have you read the Purpose Driven Life?" if I were to speak against Warren, and pooh pooh me if I had not, would now pooh pooh me for reading the Da Vinci Code before I spoke against it or it's author. We are told that it is wrong to not having read Warren ourselves to rely on other people's works regarding him, but yet when the author is Brown we are to use the information out there and not seek to know for ourselves the truth of what he has or has not written.
You are right. I had forgotten about that.
Double standard.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Why is this book any different than any other?
I can tell you that God created the earth in 6 literal days and yes, indeed, I need no more credibility to say that than the fact that God has said it.
But, if I am going to say to you a physicist that the Biblical account of creation does not violate the Laws of Thermodynamics, then I wont have much credibility if I have no earthly idea about what Newton thought or taught.
Do I refuse to know anything of Newton's work because he was a unitarian? Do I never open my mouth to witness to a physicist should one cross my path in this life?
You can say that you don't have to see poop to know it smells, but the truth is we all know poop smells because we all defecate and we have all seen it.
You can say to me that Islam is a religion of peace and I might believe you, had I never read the Koran. I have read the Koran and I know that Islam is not a religion of peace and those many would label fanatical are not fanatical, but fundamental believers in their religion.
There are people who speak about what the Bible says who have never read it too. My experience is that they misrepresent the Bible and that hurts the witness of God and Christ in the world. I see them in about the same light as I see someone who would say that Dan Brown is a heretic, not knowing what Dan Brown has said.
It is ironic to me that the same people who would scream "Have you read the Purpose Driven Life?" if I were to speak against Warren, and pooh pooh me if I had not, would now pooh pooh me for reading the Da Vinci Code before I spoke against it or it's author. We are told that it is wrong to not having read Warren ourselves to rely on other people's works regarding him, but yet when the author is Brown we are to use the information out there and not seek to know for ourselves the truth of what he has or has not written.
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trafield
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posted
I believe scripture is consistent in stressing that we need to avoid things that are contrary to God's heart.
Regardless of one's belief on the rapture's timing, I would certainly not take the mark of the beast so that I could better witness against taking it!
No, I do not need to sit for two hours listening to blasphemy to make me credible. It is the Lord who makes the Truth coming out my mouth credible. So if someone wants to suggest I am not credible for not seeing the movie, I will just tell them that I do not have to see poop to know it stinks.
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Hitch
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Well after reading the book I wont bother with the film version. The story moved right along and has some interestiong twists but I cant fathom why its done so well but then I couldnt get two pages into the Mists of Avalon.
H
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hardcore
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
Yes, some good points have been made. But I don't believe there's all that much to worry about. How much damage did "The Last Temptation Of Christ" or "Jesus Christ Superstar" do. Frankly, I believe more damage is being done to the cause of Christ by some of those who claim to be His than all the blasphemous movies ever filmed.
Aaahh. Another very good point.
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