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Author
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Topic: Wonder who this could be?
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
Well Said Brother Walt!
Linda, I totally understand what you're saying as well. I can not judge someones Salvation as it's not my place, but the Lord does tell us that we can judge righteous judgement and when I hear statements like "take a holy spirit machine gun and cut them down" then I KNOW that person hasn't a clue of who or what the Lord God Almighty and Yeshua HaMachiach are.
Paul told us that if anyone brings another gospel then that person is to be accursed... Strong Words! But that's exactly what the whole WOF/Prosperity and now the Purpose Driven/Emergent movements do, they preach another gospel and another jesus. I find it hard to believe that they would teach these things out of ignorance when the leaders of each of these movements are such high profile and have undoubtedly received hoards of letters and emails pointing out the gross errors in their doctrines. (I say this because I've read accounts of people who've written to several of these 'pastors.') Having said this, it's Still not 'my' place to judge their salvation... only God can do that.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
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posted
I didn't say all were lost.
ANY ONE of us are capable of being misled by the enemy at any time.
That is the struggle we have while we are on one earth.
A born-again believer can (and most likely will) unintentionally believe / teach / act on a lie of the enemy (that's why we have Ephesians 6:10-18).
We can do stuff "of satan" even though we are OF Yahweh.
That's why we have grace.
But the false teachers / prophets / apostles that Yahweh warns us of thru Peter & Paul & Jude $ John ARE OF satan (not just doing of satan) because satan has blinded them with pride (the pharisees were blinded with pride) and being blinded with pride they won't humble themselves to God, admitting they are wrong, repenting.
There is a big difference between "being of" and "doing of".
Some of the pharisees (like Paul) and Priests repented, humbling themselves before God and became "OF Yahweh" even though they THOUGHT they were "OF Yahweh" before.
Peter was definetely "OF Yahweh" even though he DID "of satan" and had to be rebuked, and he repented.
That is one of the signs of someone "OF Yahweh", that they will humble themselves in repentance, admitting they were wrong, or teaching wrong.
It's all part of our Christian growth.
I've known Pastors and teachers who have come out and said they were teaching wrongly, and correcting their errors.
There is a difference between have some of the details and understandings of Scripture off, and having the the Gospel off.
The WOF / properity people have the center core of The Gospel "off"
Some people we can tell if they are in The Light or in the dark, but there are some people we won't beable to tell till it's all said and done with.
Because we still struggle in the flesh, and have a skilled adversary, we can't discern perfectly absolutely liker Jesus could.
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
I agree with you Walt, but let me ask you this:
When Peter taught that Gentiles should be circumcised, he was teaching another Gospel, I am sure you agree. That doctrine was of Satan. But would I have been in error to call Peter lost?
Now, Peter repented and if he had not repented what do you think that Paul would have done? would he have called Peter lost? or would he have turned him over to Satan to learn not to blaspheme and continued to teach that Peter's doctrine was in error?
My Bible says this:
Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
I am not disagreeing with you; but I am telling you that this is my struggle for understanding. What do you do with this scripture above when you boldly declare someone is lost? I ask this not in a confrontational way, but truly seeking to understand. How does this harmonize with what you have said and Deb has said?
To me it says that I can judge the doctrine; I can mark the one who preaches it and I can put him/her out of fellowship and have nothing to do with them. I can refuse to call them Brother because they are clearly not doing the will of the Father.
But, I cannot say what God will do with them. God caused Peter to repent. Would I have judged before its time, Peter's salvation before God led him to hear Paul and repent?
Until any man takes his last breath or Christ comes is there not opportunity to repent?
To me it is not important to call them lost. It is important to preach the truth contrast the error.
The word as you and Deb have shown damns them. I dont feel the need to or the ability to. If this is wrong, then I am open to correction scripturally. I am open to understanding that I might not have. But at this point, this is my understanding.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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wparr
Advanced Member
Member # 891
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posted
If someone "claims" to be a prophet or apostle and their doctrine and fruit show they are NOT of Yahweh.
If the "claim" to be led of the spirit, but TRUE BIBLICAL interpretation of Scripture shows it is NOT THE Holy Spirit of Elohim.
Then what other alternative is their than they are of satan????
It's either "OF Yahweh Elohim"
or it's "OF satan"
There is NO OTHER alternatives if you believe The Bible.
Even if their "intent" isn't to be of satan, but they don't test the spirits via scripture to ENSURE it's of Yahweh, and it is ISN'T of Yahweh, they are STILL serving satan.
Jesus states this TRUTH (FACT)
John 8:41-47
(41) "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
(42) Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
(43) "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
(44) "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
(45) "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
(46) "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
(47) "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
The pharisees and jews THOUGHT they were serving Yahweh because they were using Scripture and serving at the Temple.
But Jesus PROVES otherwise.
Just because they are using a Bible;
Just because they are in a church;
Just because they are saying and claiming the name of Jesus;
DOES NOT MEAN IT IS OF YAHWEH ELOHIM
It MUST MUST MUSTline up with Scripture, not a verse or two OUT OF CONTEXT, but must line up with the TOTALITY of context of Scripture.
It's either "of" A)Yahweh or B)satan
There is no choice C) D) E)
It's NOT multiple choice, it's TRUTH or FALSE PERIOD!!!!
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
Woo Hooo! No mincing words or tiptoe-ing around the subject there! You go girl! Vacation must have been good for you; sounds like you have your preachin hat on today! ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
I have to tell you, I am afraid to be that bold. But in honesty I think that the scriptures supports exactly what you have said. I just cant bring myself to say any is lost because I dont know what God will do tomorrow or before someone dies. I try not to even ask or think of that for it just scares me to judge something before its time. That is my personal issue though. I honestly do believe that the scripture supports exactly what you have said.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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SoftTouch
Advanced Member
Member # 2316
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by David:
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. - 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
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What is the above saying?
It's saying that there ARE servants of Satan pretending to be born-again believers who have wormed their way into churches (and especially in the world of TV) and set themselves up as teachers and prophets with authority. They "Claim" their authority is Jesus, but it is Satan. They Twist God's Holy Word, Add to it, and Deny the very Lord who Died and Rose again! (Especially when they claim HE had to be born-again In Hell!) They even claim that we are 'little messiahs' or 'god men' which is the very lie the serpent told Eve.
It's saying that even though we may not Want to believe it - some of our Teachers and (self-proclaimed) Prophets serve Satan - Not Jesus! And we MUST Be Ever Watchful because these Pretenders DECEIVE Many!
Unfortunately, many now days don't believe there are such False Teachers and Prophets No matter what Scriptures you show them to try and help them understand ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Posts: 3465 | Registered: Nov 2003
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helpforhomeschoolers
Advanced Member
Member # 15
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posted
quote:
The worst condemnation of all is reserved for these false apostles/teachers: to be judged according to their works.
I agree watcher. My understanding is that apart from the works that Christ does through the life of the believer there are no "good" works, and the end of all works that are not HIS works is burning.
Thus that is the end of the False Prophet/Teacher.
My understanding is that you can feed and cloth tens of thousands; give 90% of your income to chairty; care for homeless and poor and widows; never drink, cuss, smoke, or gamble, be monogomous, never look after a person in lust, and any other "good" thing you can think of and if the impetus that is behind those things is not the very person of Christ then those things are still works of the flesh, done out of a heart of sin and for motivations that are not God's will and want, and thus they are dead works made to be burned in the fire.
Jesus said there is none "good" but God; and Jesus never did anything except what the Father willed him to do.. the works he did were not HIS but the Father's.
Those are the only works that are going to stand in the judgment. Even we who are born again will meet with the flaming eyes Christ at the Bema Seat to have our works tried to see what manner of works they be and those that we, who have Christ, worked ourselves will burn. How much more those who have not Christ?
The end of the False Prophet/Teacher is utter destruction in the Lake of Fire for his/her end shall be according to the same end as is their works.
This is why we must daily present our bodies living sacrifice, that it be not our bodies that live and work, but Christ that lives and works in us... and you can guarantee that Christ does not work contrary to the word of God that is written, nor to the will of God. It is the ROOT that determins the fruit!
A few years ago there was a young man who gave a sermon at youth Sunday in our church. On this day every year the youth group takes full responsibility of the services for that day. It is always a wonderful time to get to see how God is raising up young people for Himself.
On this particular Sunday, this young man talked about how he had always been a cheerful giver.. a nice person. Everyone liked him because he shared what he had, and he was kind. He would do good deeds when ever he could. He was raised in a Christian home and he did believe and so he thought that this was a good thing that he was this way. But one day the Lord spoke to his heart and showed him that his motivation was the flesh. He did these seemingly good things because he liked the positive attention that he got;he liked not having to deal with peer pressure, because al his peers liked him; he liked being liked; he liked being singled out and patted on the back; he liked the trust that people gave him because he was well mannered and thoughtful... but all of those things were about him and what his flesh desired. The Lord led him to understand that even though he looked good... his heart was not right and the good things that came out of him needed to be the fruit of GOD's love and God's will coming out of him. He had to lay down his desires and his flesh and desire only GOD.
This was a powerful message coming from the mouth of a 16 year old!! I was moved to tears of joy at such a blessing that day! I shall never forget the message.
I think that is the picture here with the issue of False Prophets and Teachers, if it was Christ in them that was the impetus of their teachings... neither the message nor the practices would be contrary to the word and will of God.
What I see is the impetus of those that I see today is the love of money and power.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Watcher
Advanced Member
Member # 3589
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posted
Paul, as a true apostle could "boast" that he took no money, that he was more interested in the integrity of the message than in his own needs
It is surprising, but true to the Scriptures, to see these false apostles arising from the church itself, and coming with a deceptive mask
Like Satan's appearance as an angel of light, so false apostles/teachers may have a "good" appearance; we can't judge on external things
in today's church, "an individual has only to make the preposterous claims for himself in order to gain an enthusiastic and undiscerning following."
The worst condemnation of all is reserved for these false apostles/teachers: to be judged according to their works.
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Watcher
Whoso rewardeth evil for good, evil shall not depart from his house. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
Proverbs 17:13,15
Posts: 146 | From: Earth | Registered: Jul 2004
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KnowHim
Admin
Member # 1
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posted
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. - 2 Corinthians 11:13-15
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What is the above saying?
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Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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