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Topic: Rick Warren: There is Salvation Outside of Knowing Christ
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SoftTouch
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Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever been accused of being Coy before LOL!
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I dont think that Deb was being coy, either. In fact, I can say confidently, that I have never known Deb to be coy either. Innocent Zeal is perhaps her greatest challenge. It seems to me that she simply felt that she had seen the same thing and desired to illustrate one of the reasons why.
LOL Sis, I think you’ve hit it on the head but I’d have never thought of that term. Yes, your assessment of my motives are right on the money ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
As far as not giving a full account of what was said, I DID post a link to the Entire thread so anyone could read for themselves (in context) ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Here’s the quote from above in this thread:
quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
As for HisGrace being against the Fundamentalist position... Apparently HisGrace does have a problem with Fundamentalism as witnessed by two of her posts on another thread: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003791#000005
I just noticed that HisGrace (in the post two posts up here) linked to a DIFFERENT thread then the one I Quoted from. The thread I quoted from was on "Easy Believism" in which a converstion on Fundamentalism took place. HisGrace put a link to a completely different thread. Just thought I'd try to clear up any confusion before it happens
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Ladies dont be coy??????
Definitions:
1. evasive: annoyingly reluctant to make a commitment or to divulge something
2. pretending to be shy: pretending, in a teasing or provocative way, to be reserved or modest
3. shy: shy or reserved in social situations
I dont think I have ever been accused of being coy. It is usually my unevasiveness, and un pretentiousness, and directness that is an issue for some. Although my husband does think that the LORD has made me somewhat shy and reserved in social situations, where I used to not be so. So while I may fall under these latter and less frequently used meanings of the word coy, I was not at all attempting to be coy with you.
This was not coy; it was a rhetorical question:
Do I need to post more? Is it that I used an article printed by the Washington Times hisgrace or is it that you also distain fundamentlism?
rhe·tor·i·cal ques·tion
noun
Definitions:
question requiring no answer: a question asked for effect that neither expects nor requires an answer
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I dont think that Deb was being coy, either. In fact, I can say confidently, that I have never known Deb to be coy either. Innocent Zeal is perhaps her greatest challenge. It seems to me that she simply felt that she had seen the same thing and desired to illustrate one of the reasons why.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Do I need to post more? Is it that I used an article printed by the Washington Times hisgrace or is it that you also distain fundamentlism?
From SoftTouch: I can only conclude that she does not agree with the Fundamenatlist position.
Please ladies. Don't play coy with me - you know me better than that.
Let's take an honest look at what I said in the following thread.
Independent Fundamental Church Not for Me
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by SoftTouch:
How could Any Born-Again Christian pray to Allah????
Oh come on SoftTouch - give me a break. ![[roll on floor]](graemlins/6.gif) Next you are going to try and tell us that Billy Graham believes in the tooth fairy. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Do I need to post more? Is it that I used an article printed by the Washington Times hisgrace or is it that you also distain fundamentlism?
It is difficult for me to understand why you will almost always defend the preacher or teacher that is contrary to the Bible hisgrace; it is difficult for me to understand that you almost always seem to stand on the esteeming of men, rather than the shedding of light on what is going on in the world; it is difficult for me to understand that while you will almost always make a big to do about not wanting to read these threads you can always be found in them trying to change the subject or cause and argument or turn the attention against the poster and off the subject at hand; It is difficult for me to understand that while you claim to only want to read and study HIS word, I rarely find that you post in Bible Study threads that stick strickly to the studying and exegesis of the Bible.
As someone who has been in this forum for over three years and has been witness to the above described behavior, I want to add my witness that the words spoken here by Helpforhomeschoolers are completely true. This has been my experience as well.
As for HisGrace being against the Fundamentalist position... Apparently HisGrace does have a problem with Fundamentalism as witnessed by two of her posts on another thread: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=003791#000005
July 1, 2005
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
The doctrine of EASY BELIEVISM has essentially overtaken our ranks in the Independent, Fundamental Baptist Churches. Thousands are being led down a primrose path but remain lost without Christ because so many preachers have fallen for the shallow, lifeless approach to seeking "conversions" without any Bible foundation.
The Indenpendent Fundamental Baptist Churches have broken away from the traditional Baptist churches and have created their own brand of doctrine.
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
From Soft Touch-I can't even express how very Greatful and Thankful that I am to my Heavenly Father for leading us to the Independent, Fundamental Baptist Church we're at now!
Mystery solved - I have been on this board for over a year now and have found that the above theme seems to surround the majority of the threads. Now I realize that many of our members must be Independent Fundamental Baptists.
Of course you know that I don't believe in breaking away from the traditional church, but now I understand where you are coming from.
SoftTouch: I can only conclude that she does not agree with the Fundamenatlist position.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Do I need to post more? Is it that I used an article printed by the Washington Times hisgrace or is it that you also distain fundamentlism?
It is difficult for me to understand why you will almost always defend the preacher or teacher that is contrary to the Bible hisgrace; it is difficult for me to understand that you almost always seem to stand on the esteeming of men, rather than the shedding of light on what is going on in the world; it is difficult for me to understand that while you will almost always make a big to do about not wanting to read these threads you can always be found in them trying to change the subject or cause and argument or turn the attention against the poster and off the subject at hand; It is difficult for me to understand that while you claim to only want to read and study HIS word, I rarely find that you post in Bible Study threads that stick strickly to the studying and exegesis of the Bible.
None the less, this is your perogative; the Bible says that the children perish for lack of knowledge; the Bible says those who are ignorant are willingly so.
If you want to evaluate based on scripture Warren's theology then let us discuss that so that all could learn and decide for themselves what is in line with the scripture and what is not.
If you dont then please to not try to take this thread off its course which is to show that there is a movement in the world that is not godly and not biblical though it comes as light and claims that it speaks Biblical truth.
I dont know about your Bible, but my Bible prophesies that these things would be and they are and with every passing day we see prophesy being fullfilled and The Lord Jesus said that we should not be ignorant of the season or the wiles of the devil. If you are not interested in that then why dont you just refrain from reading these posts instead of trying to run them amuck?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Perhaps Philadephia's Newspaper is more to your liking?
Posted on Sun, Jan. 08, 2006
The purpose-driven pastorBy Paul NussbaumInquirer Staff WriterLAKE FOREST, Calif. - This week, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the President's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.
Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, Calif., is much in demand these days.
The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling The Purpose Driven Life, Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.
With his book - the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation - and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.
Now he wants to use his growing influence - and wealth - for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.
"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his sprawling Orange County church campus.
"I'm so tired of Christians being known for what they're against."
Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.
"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."
Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.
It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.
At the end of his second sermon last Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."
That, simply put, is his message. Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits "there is not a new idea in that book."
The Purpose Driven Life has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.
The book figured prominently in a hostage drama in Georgia last March. Ashley Smith, held by alleged Atlanta courthouse killer Brian Nichols, said he released her after she gave him methamphetamine and read to him from the book.
Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California. He is "a very important figure in evangelical Christianity," part of a "trend we'll see more of," Miller said, citing Warren's independence, social activism, informality and ability to reach across racial and national lines.
"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."
Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more-divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."
Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.
"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries... . He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.
In North Philadelphia, the Rev. Herbert Lusk, the former Philadelphia Eagles running back who is pastor of the Greater Exodus Baptist Church and a prominent supporter of President Bush, brought Warren to town in November to raise money for aid to Africa. Lusk also tutored many of the Eagles' players and coaches in the Purpose-Driven Life program last year.
Lusk said Warren "took the principles that we preach about every Sunday and packaged them in a way that are palatable for Christians and non-Christians."
"The guy is a preacher's preacher... . He's the leading evangelical in the world, unquestionably," Lusk said.
Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. (The term comes from Greek; to "evangelize" means to preach the gospel.) The term is typically applied to Protestants.
Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.
Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative - opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty - he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.
Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss issues such as poverty and the environment.
"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."
"Politics is always downstream from culture. I place less confidence in it than a lot of folks. I don't think that's the answer... . Politics is not the right tool to change the culture."
With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.
His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.
Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County, as Warren went door-to-door, asking residents what they'd like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.
As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social-service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.
This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda, to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).
Last month, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as strictly a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.
Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems.
"I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."
But, powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.
Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
ONLINE EXTRA
To read the rest of the series on the evangelical movement by Paul Nussbaum, visit http://go.philly.com/religion
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contact staff writer Paul Nussbaum at 215-854-4587 or pnussbaum@phillynews.com.
email thisprint thisreprint or license this
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Maybe you like Dc's other Newspaper - the Washington Post:
A Global Ministry of 'Muscular Christianity'
'Purpose Driven Life' Author Taking On Poverty, Disease
By Paul Nussbaum
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Saturday, January 21, 2006; B09
LAKE FOREST, Calif.
Three weeks ago, it was the Rose Bowl players' breakfast. This month, it will be the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then the president's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.
Rick Warren is much in demand these days. The founding pastor of the Saddleback megachurch south of Los Angeles and the author of the best-selling "The Purpose Driven Life," Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.
With his book, "Purpose Driven Life" videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of people and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.
Now he wants to use his growing influence -- and wealth -- for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.
"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his Orange County church campus. "I'm so tired of Christians being known for what they're against."
Fresh from preaching to 38,000 congregants during Christmas week services, Warren was looking to the future by invoking the past.
"One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51, shifting painfully in his chair because of a back sprain suffered during an all-terrain-vehicle romp with his 20-year-old son, Matthew. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."
Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote.
It's time for modern evangelicals to trade words for deeds and get similarly involved, Warren contends.
At the end of his second sermon on that recent Sunday, he reminded his largely affluent Orange County audience: "Life is not about having more and getting more. It's about serving God and serving others."
That, simply put, is his message: Give your life to God, help others, spread the word. It is the same message that Christians have been preaching for 2,000 years. Warren has updated the language, added catchphrases and five-step guides, but he readily admits that "there is not a new idea in that book."
"The Purpose Driven Life" has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists and Presbyterians. Pastors and priests use it as a Bible study handbook.
Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California.
"The Gen X-ers are sick and tired of flash and hype and marketing," Miller said. "The soft sell of a Rick Warren is far more attractive to them than a highly stylized TV presentation of the Christian message."
Among evangelicals, Warren is more influential than better-known and more divisive figures such as religious broadcasters Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or radio psychologist James Dobson, and he is often seen as the heir to the Rev. Billy Graham as "America's pastor."
Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most influential evangelical leaders.
Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal, or "born-again," religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God and believe in spreading their faith.
Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative -- opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty -- he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains politics and fundamentalism.
Warren is a friend of President Bush and a repeat visitor to the White House. But he also met for several hours at Saddleback last month with Sen. John F. Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee, to discuss such issues as poverty and the environment.
"I'm worried that evangelicals be identified too much with one party or the other. When that happens, you lose your prophetic role of speaking truth to power," Warren said. "And you have to defend stupid things that leaders do."
With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.
His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshipers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.
Warren's father, grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. His ministry prospered in booming Orange County as he went door to door, asking residents what they would like in a church. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.
As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren said he has given most of the millions to the church and the three social service foundations he has established. He stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.
This month, he is leading a trip to Rwanda to train pastors and distribute medicine and money to battle AIDS and other diseases. It's part of what he calls his global PEACE plan (Plant a church, Equip leaders, Assist the poor, Care for the sick, Educate the next generation).
Last month, he launched a major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease. Part of the battle for Warren is overcoming resistance from evangelicals who view AIDS as a gay disease or even as divine retribution for immoral behavior.
Warren said he sees religious institutions as more powerful forces than governments for solving the world's problems. "I would trust any imam or priest or rabbi to know what is going on in a community before I would any government agency."
But powerful as churches can be in working for the powerless, they can't succeed without governments and nongovernmental organizations, Warren said.
© 2006 The Washington Post Company
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I see; we should not believe what the Washington Times prints because it is owned by Moon. Ok. How about what the San Diego Union Tribune?
New purpose drives evangelical Warren
Pastor wants church known for its deeds
By Paul Nussbaum
KNIGHT RIDDER NEWS SERVICE
January 26, 2006
Associated Press
Rick Warren, in an uncharacteristic tie, has become one of the most sought-after evangelicals in America. He's also tackling AIDS, poverty and other social ills.
LAKE FOREST – This week, it's the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. After that, it's the president's prayer breakfast in Washington, followed by an entertainment industry conference in Los Angeles.
Rick Warren, the Southern Baptist preacher's son from tiny Redwood Valley, is much in demand these days.
The founding pastor of the Saddleback mega-church in Orange County and author of the best-selling "The Purpose Driven Life," Warren is perhaps the most influential evangelical Christian in America.
With his book – the best-selling hardback nonfiction book in the nation – and Purpose-Driven Life videos and 40-day Bible study plans, Warren has created an unparalleled international network of millions of individuals and 400,000 churches, spanning faiths and denominations.
Now he wants to use his growing influence – and wealth – for an ambitious global attack on poverty, AIDS, illiteracy and disease.
"The New Testament says the church is the body of Christ, but for the last 100 years, the hands and feet have been amputated, and the church has just been a mouth. And mostly, it's been known for what it's against," Warren said during a break between services at his church campus.
Advertisement
"I'm so tired of Christians being known for what they're against."
Warren is looking to the future by invoking the past. "One of my goals is to take evangelicals back a century, to the 19th century," said Warren, 51. "That was a time of muscular Christianity that cared about every aspect of life."
Not just personal salvation, but social action. Abolishing slavery. Ending child labor. Winning the right for women to vote. His message is simply put: Give your life to God, help others, spread the word.
"The Purpose Driven Life" has sold more than 24 million English-language copies since 2002, with millions more in other languages. It has been popular with Lutherans, Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, with pastors and priests using it as a Bible-study handbook.
Warren "is able to cast the Christian story so people can hear it in fresh ways," said Donald E. Miller, director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at the University of Southern California.
Scott L. Thumma, a professor of the sociology of religion at Hartford Seminary and the author of a forthcoming book on mega-churches, said polls of church leaders often put Warren in first or second place among most-influential evangelical leaders.
"And one of the interesting things is that he crosses boundaries. ... He's not just respected by the evangelical world but by many outside that world," Thumma said.
Broadly defined, evangelicals are Christians who have had a personal or "born-again" religious conversion, believe the Bible is the word of God, and believe in spreading their faith. The term is typically applied to Protestants.
Millions of Americans fit the definition, although estimates vary on exactly how many. Forty-two percent of Americans described themselves as evangelical Christians in a Gallup poll in April, while 22 percent said they met all three measures in a Gallup survey in May. The National Association of Evangelicals says about 25 percent of adult Americans are evangelicals.
Evangelicals are often equated with fundamentalists or the religious right, which annoys Warren. Although he's politically conservative – opposing abortion and gay marriage and supporting the death penalty – he pushes a much broader agenda and disdains both politics and fundamentalism.
With his goatee and penchant for Hawaiian shirts and colloquial language, Warren embodies a laid-back approach to worship that resonates with Americans who have little allegiance to formal denominations or rituals.
His 120-acre hilltop campus, with palm trees, waterfall and meandering brook, is a kind of religious theme park, where worshippers meet in different buildings to suit their musical preferences, while watching simultaneous video feeds of Warren preaching at the main worship center.
Warren's father and grandfather and great-grandfather were all preachers. He followed their path by starting Saddleback in 1980 with his wife, Kay, and a congregation of seven. For 15 years, he and his growing flock were nomads, meeting in schools, homes and other buildings. Construction started on the current campus in 1995, and Warren now has 80,000 names on Saddleback's rolls. Saddleback is a Southern Baptist church, but it doesn't advertise the fact.
As the money has rolled in from his book, Warren stopped taking his $110,000 annual salary and repaid the church for his 25 years of salary since its founding. He and his wife became "reverse tithers," he said, keeping 10 percent of their income and giving away the rest, including $13 million in 2004.
In November, he launched the first major evangelical effort to battle AIDS, convening a three-day conference at Saddleback to mobilize American Christians to help AIDS victims and raise money to fight the disease.
Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism – they're all motivated by fear.
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Jordan's king urges moderates to unite
By Julia Duin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
February 3, 2006
Re: The Washington Times-
The Times was founded in 1982 by Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification (Unification Church), to be a conservative alternative to the larger and mainstream Washington Post. To this day, it is widely perceived as maintaining a right-leaning editorial stance. The Unification Church has spent over $1 billion establishing the paper and subsidizing its ongoing losses.
When we give our nod of approval to the myriad of cut and paste sites available, we should be careful what we are bringing to the Christian table.
History of the Unification Church -
The Unification Church (UC) claims that Jesus appeared to Moon Yong-myung (his birth name) at Easter time on April 17, 1935, when Moon was 15 years old (16 years old in Korean age reckoning). He purportedly asked Moon to help him with the accomplishment of the work left unaccomplished after his crucifixion. After a period of prayer and consideration, Moon accepted the mission, later changing his name to Moon Sun-myung (i.e., Sun Myung Moon). Confusion as to the age of the young man, and the year of his visitation, stem from use of the Lunar Calendar, which causes the date of his birthday to change from year to year, as seen on the western Julian calendar.
The authenticity of this encounter is rejected by Christian theologians and church leaders. Some of these challengers interpret the UC view as a claim that Jesus "failed" and take great umbrage at this claim. The UC sometimes calls this interpretation a misunderstanding and insists that Jesus did not "fail", although Moon himself has strongly affirmed that he is greater than Jesus (see Jesus and John the Baptist). ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Some critics downplay or even dismiss entirely the religious aspects of the Unification Church. Many detractors in the US have branded it a "cult", claiming it has no other purpose than to enrich Rev. Moon personally or to advance his political aspirations. Moon claims he has no political aspirations and dismisses the idea that his followers are stupid enough to sacrifice themselves for his personal aggrandizement: "They are smart, idealistic and determined." (Newsweek International interview with Chesnoff and Nagorsky, 1973).
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SoftTouch
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
As Hamas wages war against Irael, there will be a need again for the use of Jordan's airports and the passing of arms between Iran/Iraq and Palestine.
Check this out!
http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...p?storyid=5839
Senior Hamas delegation to visit Iran on Monday
Sat. 18 Feb 2006
Iran Focus
Tehran, Iran, Feb. 18 – A senior delegation from the radical Palestinian group Hamas will travel to Tehran on Monday to meet and hold talks with senior Iranian officials including President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the news agency Fars, run by the Office of the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, reported Saturday evening.
The chief of Hamas’ political bureau Khalid Mash’al will lead the delegation to Tehran, the report said.
In January, while in Damascus, Ahmadinejad told Mash’al, “If the occupiers stay on even one inch of Palestinian soil, the goal of Palestine will not be realised”.
“We must not let our guard down now for even one moment against the enemies’ plots. Belittling the goal of Palestine is a great plot that the enemies are after”, he said.
In December, Mash’al met and held talks with Ayatollah Khamenei in Tehran. During the meeting, Khamenei dismissed the United States-backed roadmap to peace in the Middle East and called for “resistance” against the state of Israel as the only path to “liberation” in the troubled region.
“The only way to ensure the liberation of Palestine and the future of its people is continued resistance along with force, unity, and adherence to Islam's statutes”, Khamenei said.
“Experience of the past 50 years shows that surrender the face of the Zionist occupiers and negotiations with them will only make the situation worse”, the Supreme Leader added.
He said that he hoped that “Palestinian resistance groups” would force the “occupiers” out of Jerusalem.
“Despite its false superficial show of force, the United States has been met with defeat in the Middle East and is in the process of retreating. Palestinian people and resistance groups must take this situation into consideration and vigilantly continue in their path of Jihad”, Khamenei added.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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After Israel's 6 day war Jordan became a headquarters for the PLO; the presence of terrorists there to fight Irael caused a civil war that almost took the Kindom from the royal family. This is how the PLO came to later base themselves out of Lebanon.
Jordan is already taxed by the isurgency that it experinces as militants move from Iraq and Iran to Afganastan for training.
As Hamas wages war against Irael, there will be a need again for the use of Jordan's airports and the passing of arms between Iran/Iraq and Palestine.
Recently... in the past week, Jordan, I believe fearing being sandwiched between Hamas on one side and Shitie and Sunni on the other and all of them coming against Israel, offered Hamas free reign to come and go through Jordan as long as they agree to not desire Jordanian citizenship. This will keep another civil war from coming to be I am sure they hope at least.
Militarily or politically speaking this is not pleasing to the US, and yet they are here with the US at the National Prayer Breakfast quoting from both the Koran and the Bible. How quaint! Does it surprise me to see Rick Warren right there? Not at all, he does have a global plan for peace and for saving the world from greenhouse gases doesnt he?
2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
There are a lot of people out there who seem to ignore the scriptue that they claim to uphold.
Oh, wait, upholding it would make one to be a fundamentalist wouldnt it?
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SoftTouch
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I 'think' I see what you're getting at Sis, but maybe you could put some of the pieces together so I can see more clearly?
I can see that giving Hamas free pass to come and go would facilitate it's ability to use Syrian/Iranian arms and people to supply and carry out the jihad against Israel, possibily leading to Gog/Magog invasion? Might this become WWIII (even though God Himself will foil the attack on Israel)? I see WWIII as being the conduit for AC to step up center stage...
By trying to "Merge" Islam, Judiasm, Christianity, and other religions (by doing away with us Fundamental Extreamests) they make way for the religion of the AC - New Agism (You are gods...). And by watering down the Scriptures (via philosophy based on another scripture) the Criteria for Salvation (Only Through Jesus) - and by ignoring the Sin and Repentance Issue, they make a false Christianity that is 'pleasing to itching ears' thus making AC's aspirations much easier to obtain.
These are my thoughts so far...
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Deb:
What makes it an even bigger joke is what Jordan has just done offering Hamas officials free reighn so to speak to come and go through Jordan. When you put that in proper political and hisotrical perspective and you then look at their involvement here in this kind of thing, you can really see a much bigger picture I think of all the players and powers that be, if one wants to see that is.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, that is very correct, HisGrace. Most people would be very amazed to know what Moon and his wife are involved in and with whom on a global scale.
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SoftTouch
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Did you see this one: A national Prayer breakfast with the King of Jordan???
Does it surprise you at all that Warren would make a statement like this and compare Fundamental Islam with fundamental Christianity
Yes, I read about that horrid prayer breakfast. How could Any Born-Again Christian pray to Allah???? Or ANY Other False God?! This should show the True intent of our leaders (both Secular and Religious). It doesn't surprise me in the least to see Warren prominently in the group. Warren is SO Connected to various New Age adhearants (and as I've posted about in the past) even travels with (and has on his payroll) a staunch New Ager (I forget the name off the top of my head... I'd have to research it again).
People, Wake Up Please! There can be NO Unity between Jesus Christ and other religions. There can be NO Unity between True Biblical Doctrine and Twisted, False Doctrines. The Apostacy is in Full Swing and headed to the One World Religion on the fast track!
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Jordan's king urges moderates to unite
By Julia Duin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
February 3, 2006
Re: The Washington Times
The Times was founded in 1982 by Reverend Sun Myung Moon, leader of the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification (Unification Church), to be a conservative alternative to the larger and mainstream Washington Post. To this day, it is widely perceived as maintaining a right-leaning editorial stance. The Unification Church has spent over $1 billion establishing the paper and subsidizing its ongoing losses.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Yes, Deb it truly is sad isnt it. I does not surprise me at all either that Warren is also at the head of this eccumenical business on global warming. All the pieces are here now it is just a matter of time as we sit and watch them all coming into place and fitting together.
Did you see this one: A national Prayer breakfast with the King of Jordan???
Jordan's king urges moderates to unite
By Julia Duin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
February 3, 2006
King Abdullah II of Jordan quoted from the Bible and the Koran in a brief speech to a lunchtime crowd of 2,000 mostly evangelical Christians yesterday, invoking "our Judeo-Christian-Islamic heritage" and urging moderates of the three great religions to unite.
"At this point in history, our service to God, our countries and our peoples demands that we confront extremism in its myriad forms," he told listeners at the annual National Prayer Breakfast luncheon at the Washington Hilton.
"To overcome this common foe, we must explore the values that unite us, rather than exaggerating the misunderstandings that divide us."
The king got an enthusiastic welcome from the crowd, and Sen. Bill Nelson, Florida Democrat, called Abdullah "a great example of unity for us." Praying in the name of Jesus Christ, a name otherwise hardly mentioned by anyone else at the event sponsored by evangelical Christians, Mr. Nelson asked God for "a double portion" of the spirit of the late Jordanian King Hussein to rest upon Abdullah, his son.
The king reciprocated with a speech that included six verses from the New Testament, eight from the Koran, two from the Old Testament and remarks from Martin Luther King.
Terrorist attacks, he said, are "an attack upon civilization," not a "clash of civilizations" between Christianity and Islam. Terrorist groups "do not preach the Islam of the Koran or of the prophet Muhammad. Theirs is a repugnant political ideology which violates the principles and statutes of traditional Islamic law."
Adherents of this ideology "want nothing more than to pit us against each other, denying all that we have in common," he said. "We must therefore heed the words of the New Testament: 'Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good,'?" citing Romans 12:21.
The king criticized the targeting of Christian churches in Iraq by insurgents and the "needless desecration and injury of Islamic sensibilities" by a series of cartoons that have appeared in several European newspapers.
Earlier yesterday, the king gave the benediction at the National Prayer Breakfast attended by 3,600 guests; the first Muslim head of state to be given such a role.
After yesterday's lunch, the king met privately with 23 religious leaders for an hour. Joseph Lumbard, the king's interfaith adviser and a convert to Islam from the Episcopal Church, called the meeting "very, very, very friendly."
Christian leaders included the Rev. Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs for the National Association of Evangelicals; the Rev. Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif.; Richard Mouw, the president of the Fuller Theological Seminary in Pasadena, Calif.; Don Argue, president of Northwest University in Kirkland, Wash.; and Rabbi Arthur Schneier of Park East Synagogue, an Orthodox congregation, in Manhattan.
Mr. Cizik said the rabbi reminded them that Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born leader of al Qaeda in Iraq, had threatened to assassinate Abdullah.
"The king's message of finding common ground resonated," Mr. Cizik said. "I think it's important we evangelicals get the message out that we support this man. The king's courage was acknowledged by all in the room.
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Does it surprise you at all that Warren would make a statement like this and compare Fundamental Islam with fundamental Christianity???
Warren predicts that fundamentalism, of all varieties, will be "one of the big enemies of the 21st century."
"Muslim fundamentalism, Christian fundamentalism, Jewish fundamentalism, secular fundamentalism - they're all motivated by fear. Fear of each other."
Somehow I see that fundamental is exactly what we should seek............
2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Isnt it Ironic, that in a world where we are continually told that these Islamic terrorists are extreemist, now Rick Warren is going to come out and call them what they are "fundamentalists" people - who know and follow the Koran. But he is going to compare them with Christian "fundamentalists" people who know and follow the Bible.
Let those who have ears to hear hear!
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SoftTouch
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
New-Agers don't teach -
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Answer: There is only one way to get into heaven, through what Jesus did on the cross for us. He paid the price for our sins on the cross, no one else could do that because He alone is God.
From HisGrace -What is missing from the original thread is "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, understood from what has been made, SO THAT MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE
Also missing, this further quote from Romans 1 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
I don't read second-hand cut and paste articles
And TRULY Born-Again Christians don't align themselves with those who don't teach that Jesus is the ONLY Way... I wish I could say that was the case for Warren, et. al.
The Other article I posted a link to is not second hand cut and paste, it's the entire article.
I've presented the Truth, the rest is between those who have the eyes to see and the Holy Spirit's conviction.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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New-Agers don't teach -
quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Answer: There is only one way to get into heaven, through what Jesus did on the cross for us. He paid the price for our sins on the cross, no one else could do that because He alone is God.
From HisGrace -What is missing from the original thread is "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, understood from what has been made, SO THAT MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE
Also missing, this further quote from Romans 1 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
I don't read second-hand cut and paste articles
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PLEASE Read this new thread here: http://thechristianbbs.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=53&t=000099
This article shows just how these particular teachers are leading unsuspecting Christians down this 'mystical' path to the New Age Anti-Christ Religion.
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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SoftTouch
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Sadly, none of this surprises me...
How long will it be before we start hearing (from these so-called 'enlightened' leaders and their sheeple following) that though the people don't know the name Jesus, they call him Buddah, or Allah, or Krishna, or Whatever else... yet they will be saved? Don't keep your head in the sand please... this is Exactly where this is leading. All is One and One is All - New Ageism - Gnosticism - Apostacy!
There is No Other Name - The ONLY Name is Yeshua HaMachiach (Jesus the Messiah) (same name, different languages) On this the Bible is Clear
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Psalm 119:104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way. 105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
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HisGrace
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Let's take a look from Saddleback's own site as to what Rick Warren is really saying, rather than an edited-out version, with second-hand words claiming "What Rick is saying ----".
Question: What about people who live in a country where they have never heard about Jesus? Will they be able to get into heaven by some other way?
Answer: There is only one way to get into heaven, through what Jesus did on the cross for us. He paid the price for our sins on the cross, no one else could do that because He alone is God.
What about those who haven't heard about the cross? They can be saved the same way that the people in the Old Testament were saved. The book of Romans tells us again and again that Abraham was saved the same way that we are, by his faith. Abraham didn't know the name of Jesus or that one day Jesus would die on the cross for his sins, but he trusted all that he knew about the God who had shown Himself to Abraham. Because of that trust, when Jesus died thousands of years after Abraham, the same forgiveness that was offered to us was given to Abraham.
God still reveals Himself to people who haven't heard the name of Jesus today. Romans 1:19-23;10:13-21 tells us that, even by nature itself, we can all clearly see who God really is. None of us can stand before God and say, I didn't understand." We all live as His creations in the world that He has made... the evidence of the love and grace of God are all around us! Let me be clear about what this means. A person who trusted in God without hearing the name of Jesus would be of the heart to immediately recognize that Jesus was the name of the one they believed in if they were ever to hear His name and story. They would know, just as Abraham would have known, that this is the truth about the God they have been following all of their lives. Someone who has begun to walk in the light is always able to recognize a brighter light.
Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
'For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:19-23
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written,
"How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message? Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world. Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding. "And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me. "But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people."
Romans 10:13-21
From HisGrace -What is missing from the original thread is "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, understood from what has been made, SO THAT MEN ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE
Also missing, this further quote from Romans 1 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
~Such people may never have heard about the Good News, but in their Spirit they know that there is something missing, and they may call out to God. That doesn't mean that they all will be saved, but many may.
I have heard it said that every single person on this earth gets a prompting from the Holy Spirit at least once in their lifetime. Intellectually, they may not know what it is because they haven't been educated.
I have also heard of people being saved by calling out to God, and they have no idea what has happened to them until later.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Rick Warren: There is Salvation Outside of Knowing Christ
Rick Warren believes that there is salvation today for those who have never heard of Jesus. This is from his Saddleback Family website. Read it carefully, both what it says and does not say. Here's an excerpt:
Question: What about people who live in a country where they have never heard about Jesus? Will they be able to get into heaven by some other way?
Answer: There is only one way to get into heaven, through what Jesus did on the cross for us. He paid the price for our sins on the cross, no one else could do that because He alone is God.
What about those who haven't heard about the cross?
They can be saved the same way that the people in the Old Testament were saved. The book of Romans tells us again and again that Abraham was saved the same way that we are, by his faith. Abraham didn't know the name of Jesus or that one day Jesus would die on the cross for his sins, but he trusted all that he knew about the God who had shown Himself to Abraham. Because of that trust, when Jesus died thousands of years after Abraham, the same forgiveness that was offered to us was given to Abraham.
God still reveals Himself to people who haven't heard the name of Jesus today. Romans 1:19-23;10:13-21 tells us that, even by nature itself, we can all clearly see who God really is. None of us can stand before God and say, I didn't understand." We all live as His creations in the world that He has made... the evidence of the love and grace of God are all around us! Let me be clear about what this means. A person who trusted in God without hearing the name of Jesus would be of the heart to immediately recognize that Jesus was the name of the one they believed in if they were ever to hear His name and story. They would know, just as Abraham would have known, that this is the truth about the God they have been following all of their lives. Someone who has begun to walk in the light is always able to recognize a brighter light.."
We can begin to "walk in the light" without the Light of the World? Where does the light come from, Rick, if our hearts are dark with sin as Romans 3:23 states?
With this theology, we have no need for missions or true evangelism at all. (And with Saddleback, of course, we get none.) As Christians we can spend our time like Bill and Melinda Gates--conducting purpose driven social work to cure the world's physical ills. After all, you can be saved without knowing about Christ or the cross, Warren says. This is rank apostasy.
What Rick is saying is that we are saved through what Jesus did on the cross for us, not believing in Christ and what He did on the cross for us. He says we can be saved even without knowing Jesus and his atoning work. He says that we can "trust God" without ever having heard of Christ and that when we finally hear of Christ, we'll then recognize Him and say, "ah, that was who I was trusting!" This is the underlying belief of interspiritualists like Dave Fleming who has taken Warren's beliefs a step farther and stated that all world religions are essentially the same, worshipping the same God, beneath the superficial differences. That, friends, is where Rick Warren is taking the church.
http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/archives/2006/02/rick_warren_the.php#comment
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