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Originally posted by Caretaker:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
HisGrace you have consistantly defended any televangelist who says the name of Jesus, REGARDLESS of their doctrine and teachings. You consistantly defend liars, false prophets, and deceivers of the un-grounded in the Word.

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Originally posted by hardcore:
Nobody is playing games HisGrace. Just because you don't agree with something or don't want to believe it, doesn't make it untrue.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
A true test to see if something is of the Holy Spirit is to reveal Jesus and his blood. It makes the devil and his imps scurry pretty quickly, because it reminds Satan that he was defeated at the cross, and that his time on this earth is running really short.

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by hardcore:
"IT IS TRULY APOSTACY TO SAY THE LEAST WHEN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS SAY THAT JEWS DO NOT NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN."

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The sites that are providing you with this information folks are telling a total lie and are distorting the truth. From John Hagee's-site:

Salvation
We believe all men are born with a sinful nature and that the work of the Cross was to redeem man from the power of sin. We believe that this salvation is available to all who will receive it.

H-e-l-l-o. Please notice that it says ALL MEN. Please stop playing games.

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Originally posted by hardcore:
"IT IS TRULY APOSTACY TO SAY THE LEAST WHEN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS SAY THAT JEWS DO NOT NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN."

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The sites that are providing you with this information folks are telling a total lie and are distorting the truth. From John Hagee's-site:

Salvation
We believe all men are born with a sinful nature and that the work of the Cross was to redeem man from the power of sin. We believe that this salvation is available to all who will receive it.

H-e-l-l-o. Please notice that it says ALL MEN. Please stop playing games.

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Originally posted by Eduardo Grequi:
I thought I would comment on this because I am Jewish and born again- go figure! Everyone in this world that has been born after Jesus' made know his mission and deity NEEDS TO BE BORN AGAIN AND THOSE LOOKING TOWARD THE FIRST ADVENT. IT IS TRULY APOSTACY TO SAY THE LEAST WHEN BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS SAY THAT JEWS DO NOT NEED TO BE BORN AGAIN.

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Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:

Well, Hagee's stock just dropped in my book when I found this picture on his own web site.

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Interesting.

Since it came from Hagee's website, I wonder what the defense for him will be this time? It certainly can't be written off as coming from a "heresy hunting" site. And it can't be pinned on SoftTouch either.

I have said all along that he indites himself with his own words, now he does so with pictures.

Maybe this will arouse some slumbering Christians.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by hardcore:
While I understand your insistence on going back to someone's own website, the above examples surely prove to you that you don't always get the complete picture there.

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Isn't that the only way you are going to get the real truth, is by going to the source? There is enough information on JH's site and from his sermons to gain wisdom on where he stands.

I don't bother to read or pay any attention to media hype.

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Originally posted by hardcore:
While I understand your insistence on going back to someone's own website, the above examples surely prove to you that you don't always get the complete picture there.

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Isn't that the only way you are going to get the real truth, is by going to the source? There is enough information on JH's site and from his sermons to gain wisdom on where he stands.

I don't bother to read or pay any attention to media hype.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:
Does anyone know which passage Hagee is basing this assumption on? That it's a waste of time with the Jews? I know he seems to love Israel and maybe his love for the Jews has blinded what is truth so he won't "offend" them. But I'd be more worried about offending the Lord.

We should pray for him and Israel both. But I'd be interested in knowing where he gets this idea--if anyone knows for sure.

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This The following quotes are from JH's own site. I question the validity of any statements that are purported to be made by him from any other site. If someone reports that he says converting Jews is a waste of time, something seems to be taken out of context because he believes in giving them unconditional love.

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"It is not possible to say, "I am a Christian" and not love the Jewish people. The Bible teaches that love is not what you say, but what you do. (1 John 3:18) "A bell is not a bell until you ring it, a song is not a song until you sing it, love is not love until you share it."

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For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After He has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you - for whoever touches you touches the apple of His eye - I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me. Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion...
T h e A p p l e o f H I S e y e...
Why Christians Should Support Israel
Everything Christians do should be based upon the Biblical text. Here are seven solid Biblereasons why Christians should support Israel.

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed." Point: God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have experienced the curse of God.

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Pres. Bush has been counselled by different spiritual leaders to never turn him back on the Israelis because of the above biblical warnings.

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"By the way; anybody can say anything on a website. Mission Statements aren't gospel. What they don't say can be more enlightening in some cases than what they do say."

"I'm sure Joel Osteen's statement probably doesn't mention that he doesn't believe in preaching sin. And I'll bet Rick Warren's statement doesn't mention anything about all the new age unscriptural garbage in his books. Do you think Benny Hinn mentions anything about his false prophecies and fake healings in his statement?"

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Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:
Does anyone know which passage Hagee is basing this assumption on? That it's a waste of time with the Jews? I know he seems to love Israel and maybe his love for the Jews has blinded what is truth so he won't "offend" them. But I'd be more worried about offending the Lord.

We should pray for him and Israel both. But I'd be interested in knowing where he gets this idea--if anyone knows for sure.

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"It is not possible to say, "I am a Christian" and not love the Jewish people. The Bible teaches that love is not what you say, but what you do. (1 John 3:18) "A bell is not a bell until you ring it, a song is not a song until you sing it, love is not love until you share it."

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For this is what the Lord Almighty says: "After He has honored me and has sent me against the nations that have plundered you - for whoever touches you touches the apple of His eye - I will surely raise my hand against them so that their slaves will plunder them. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me. Shout and be glad, O Daughter of Zion...
T h e A p p l e o f H I S e y e...
Why Christians Should Support Israel
Everything Christians do should be based upon the Biblical text. Here are seven solid Biblereasons why Christians should support Israel.

Genesis 12:3 "And I will bless them that bless thee and curse him that curseth thee; and in thee shall all nations of the earth be blessed." Point: God has promised to bless the man or nation that blesses the Chosen People. History has proven beyond reasonable doubt that the nations that have blessed the Jewish people have had the blessing of God; the nations that have cursed the Jewish people have experienced the curse of God.

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Originally posted by WKUHilltopper:
Does anyone know which passage Hagee is basing this assumption on? That it's a waste of time with the Jews? I know he seems to love Israel and maybe his love for the Jews has blinded what is truth so he won't "offend" them. But I'd be more worried about offending the Lord.

We should pray for him and Israel both. But I'd be interested in knowing where he gets this idea--if anyone knows for sure.

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:

1. HOUSTON CHRONICLE ARCHIVES
2. By JULIA DUIN, Houston Chronicle Religion Writer Staff (From HG - Religion? What does she know about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ)

3.John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish.

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HOUSTON CHRONICLE ARCHIVES
Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: SAT 04/30/1988
Section: Religion
Page: 1
Edition: 2 STAR

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1988_540301

San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism

By JULIA DUIN, Houston Chronicle Religion Writer
Staff

John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish.

Although a Christian minister, he celebrates Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles, buys Israeli bonds and plants trees in Israel through the Jewish National Fund. He has raised $225,000 for Hadassah, a Jewish women's Zionist organization. He's been to Israel eight times. He's even visited Dachau.

Rabbi Jack Segal of Houston's Congregation Beth Yeshurun, one of Hagee's fans, calls the pastor "a courageous soldier in God's army." Mayor Kathy Whitmire proclaimed Nov. 17, 1984, "Pastor John Hagee Day." The "Jewish Herald Voice" ran a rave review of Hagee last fall on its editorial page.

Hagee, 48, was in town last week at a meeting for young Jewish leaders sponsored by the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith. He'll be back in town June 23 at Beth Yeshurun for a "night to honor Israel" celebration. He is pastor of the 9,600-member Cornerstone Church in northern San Antonio, a plush white brick edifice dubbed the "South Texas Vatican" by locals.

How did a homegrown boy (Hagee grew up in Baytown and Houston) make it with the Jews?

Simple: The man has a mission. He's out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.

He also believes that someday Jews will claim title to a vast area promised them in Genesis and Deuteronomy that encompasses territory from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates River in Iraq. Israel has a divine right to occupy the West Bank, he says.

This is a sharp contrast to positions taken by several mainline denominations that the Palestinians should have their own nation on the West Bank and that Scripture doesn't necessarily promise the land to the Jews. To back his contentions, Hagee cites Romans 9-11, calling the chapters "God's position paper on the Jewish people."

"Christianity has a great debt of gratitude toward the Jewish people," the minister said. "The Jewish people gave us the word of God. They gave us the prophets, the patriarchs, the first family: Mary, Joseph and a very prominent Jewish rabbi, Jesus Christ. What kind of faith or foundation would we have without the Jews? Honoring the Jewish people is a very rootstock principle in Christianity."

Hagee has appeared at six "nights to honor Israel" since September 1981. Such overtures to the Jewish community have brought him death threats. After his station wagon's windows were shot out before one rally, Hagee moved into a high-security neighborhood and hired two bodyguards to accompany him during Sunday services.

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith," he said. "There is nothing in the `night to honor Israel' that does that."

In fact, trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time," he said. "The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure."

Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.

"The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses," Hagee said. "I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.

"The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not," said Hagee, giving hisinterpretation of Romans 11:25. "Paul abandoned the idea (of Jews knowing Christ). In the book of Romans, he said, `I am now going to go to the Gentiles from this time forward.' Judaism doesn't need Christianity to explain its existence. But Christianity has to have Judaism to explain its existence."

His position is a little unusual for evangelicals, who believe that the new covenant does supersede the old. Those who disagree with him are scathingly termed as "replacement theologians." The San Antonio pastor says such persons are anti-Semitic.

Curiously, mainliners who would disagree with Hagee's position on Israel's divine right to land would agree with him on a new covenant versus the old. Last June, the 1.7-million-member United Church of Christ denounced past persecution of Jews by Christians and stressed: "Judaism has not been superseded by Christianity... Christianity is not to be understood as the successor religion to Judaism; God's covenant with the Jewish people has not been abrogated."

Similiarly, the 3-million-member Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) at its General Assembly approved a document for study that also said Christianity had not replaced Judaism.

Opponents say such a theory is a form of universalism, which means that all religions are equivalent. In the past, Christianity has stressed that Jesus Christ is the only way to God, for Jews as well as non-Jews.

Hagee disputes suggestions that his eventual agenda includes the conversion of Jews to Christianity. Even the Apostle Paul didn't promise that, he says.

"Paul says Jews are chosen of God, loved of God, have not been replaced by the Christian church, are still in the economy of God and that some Jewish people have a relationship with God right now through divine election and that all Israel would be saved," he said.

However, many Christian theologians are anti-Semitic, he says, because they say the covenant with the Jews is gone, that Jews have been replaced by Christianity and that Israel does not deserve American military and financial support.

"There's an anti-Semitism growi ng in the evangelical church to a dangerous proportion," he said. "And I'm writing books and crisscrossing the country trying to bring anti-Semitism in this country to a standstill."


Copyright notice: All materials in this archive are copyrighted by Houston Chronicle Publishing Company Division, Hearst Newspapers Partnership, L.P., or its news and feature syndicates and wire services. No materials may be directly or indirectly published, posted to Internet and intranet distribution channels, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed in any medium. Neither these materials nor any portion thereof may be stored in a computer except for personal and non-commercial use.

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by redkermit:
...hardcore, I wasn't aware that John Hagee believes that Jews don't need Jesus. If it's true, then I guess that would be a problem. I'll check it out, and if it is true, I won't be watching him anymore. Thanks for the heads-up...



Actually, I don't think I've ever really watched Hagee, but this is the first time I've heard something like this about him.

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Ha! Thanks for that wonderful reply redkermit!

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Originally posted by redkermit:
...hardcore, I wasn't aware that John Hagee believes that Jews don't need Jesus. If it's true, then I guess that would be a problem. I'll check it out, and if it is true, I won't be watching him anymore. Thanks for the heads-up...



Actually, I don't think I've ever really watched Hagee, but this is the first time I've heard something like this about him.

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Ha! Thanks for that wonderful reply redkermit!

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
HisGrace, I love your new avatar!!

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Yah,I guess it's not bad eh.? This is the first time I have seen it in one of the forums. I did it last night and didn't bother to check it out.

Listen guys, I don't understand why you say that JH doesn't believe in evangelizing the Jews. He just doesn't believe in sticking his nose right in their face. I am sure he is cognitive to his proper place in respecting them, and he is evangelizing millions, including Jews, on his TV programme.

They certainly would know how he stands on salvation, and if I were in his shoes I would consider my love a planted seed and then turn the rest over to God ,and leave this very delicate situation in God's hands. This element seems to be missing from the discussions. God is in control - what about His part?

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Listen my friend if you have a Jewish friend, you must live before him as a representative of Christ. Love him, care for him, and let the light of your faith shine to him. The Jewish people have experienced the hatred of Chritianity for more than two thousand years begiining with the crusadea and enveloping into the Halocaust of the twenthieth century. The have not seen the unqualified love of Christianity. It is time for the Jewish community of the world to experience practical acts of kindness from Christians without a hidden agenda.

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His Grace, he believes that that is the only time that they will be brought to Christ and that to witness to them now is a waste of time!

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Bible scholars agree that Paul's statement that "all Israel will be saved means Israel "as a whole" not every single individual.
Just as the phrase "the fullness of the Gentiles" (Romans 11:25) does not mean every single Gentile will accept Jesus as Messiah, even so, not every single child of Israel will place his faith in Christ

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
At this time there is neither Jew not Greek; At this time the Gospel is to be preached to all Creatures; it is the duty of the church to lift Christ up in worship, to preach the gospel for a witness, and to be the salt and light in the world - the voice of the bride is the voice of preaching the Gospel, because it is the voice of worship of our risen Lord.

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Hagee says his views are based on chapters nine through 11 of Paul's letter to the Romans. "Paul says the Jewish people have been blinded to the identity of Jesus by the hand of God for the benefit of the Gentiles, and they remain blinded to this day," says Hagee, who believes in the long run that "all Israel will be saved."

Thus, he believes Christians have no duty to evangelize Jews but that "Gentiles are commanded to treat Jewish people lovingly until the revelation of Jesus to them." Hagee's study leads him to conclude that this commandment has been disobeyed for centuries by Christians, some of whom fanned the flames of anti-Semitism.

While Hagee doesn't think evangelizing Jews is an essential part of the Christian life, he believes that loving them is, and he publicly proclaims that belief in typically black-and-white terms.

He declares: "It is not possible to say, 'I am a Christian,' and not love the Jewish people."

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Hagee, because he understands what is coming to Israel in Daniel's 70th week feels that he can ignore the very command of Jesus and does not need preach the Gospel to the nation of Israel at this time and that is error at best heresy at worst.

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If you listen to his sermons on TV, he is preaching the gospel to everyone, Jew and Gentile alike?? I am sure much seed is planted during these messages.

Romans 11:10-12 Let their eyes go blind so they cannot see, and let their backs grow weaker and weaker."
Did God's people stumble and fall beyond recovery? Of course not! His purpose was to make his salvation available to the Gentiles, and then the Jews would be jealous and want it for themselves. Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the Jews turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when the Jews finally accept it.

~The Jewish people are deeply rooted in their old laws and traditions, and it is going to take something drastic to lift the veil off of their eyes. God has his own timetable to bring prophecy into the fore, and I am sure Pastor Hagee has the discernment to know that we have to wait for God's timing to lift the veil off of their eyes. Who knows how many Jewish people he may already have influenced.

I have heard another preacher say that a rabbi admitted recently that the Messiah they are waiting for may actually be Jesus. What a miracle revelation. The tide is changing - would we hear that said five or ten years ago?

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
I really like John Hagee; I love his fire and brimstone style and I have honestly learned a lot listening to him. I love that he speaks with authority and that he does not mince words.

To Hagee's credit, he does believe that when Israel comes to salvation it will be through the hearing and acceptance of the Gospel in faith and before Christ returns.

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Vertually all Jews, including the most secular, reject the evangelical view that you can in an remain a Jew in the ethnic sense while accepting Christianity - indeed the Israeli Supreme Court based a 1960s ruling on that consensus. To "Support Israel" while actively seeking to convert Jews is in Jewish eyes to couple a caress with a stab in the back.

Listen my friend if you have a Jewish friend, you must live before him as a representative of Christ. Love him, care for him, and let the light of your faith shine to him. The Jewish people have experienced the hatred of Chritianity for more than two thousand years begiining with the crusadea and enveloping into the Halocaust of the twenthieth century. The have not seen the unqualified love of Christianity. It is time for the Jewish community of the world to experience practical acts of kindness from Christians without a hidden agenda.

Paul taught that the Jews will be provoked to jealousy (Romon's 11:11), and when they ask about your faith, you then may fulfill the teaching of Peter, which says, "But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts and always be ready to give a defenseto everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear"

Battle for Jerusalem, Hagee, pp. 84

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Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by yahsway:
You know, if there is one thing i have learned in my christian walk is that we are always learning. And I know that some of us are willing to check it out like you said, if a warning has gone out.

I really like John Hagees preaching. I just happen to disagree with his belief that we should not take the gospel to the Jews. When I hear statements like that, and I have heard Hagee say it several times as well as others, I tend to think how Satan probably doesn't want them to hear and accept the gospel either. And that breaks my heart.

But I take comfort in knowing that there are those out there winning precious Jewish souls to their Messiah Jesus and that there has been more Jewish people accept Jesus as their Messiah/Savior in the last 20 years than the past 2000 years.

I know of several messianic communities that live in Israel, Jewish believers, and they are on the front lines so to speak, and you would not believe the persecution they recieve from their un-believing Jewish brothers and sisters. And yet they press on. And most of them will tell you it was from a non-Jewish believer that they heard the gospel message of Yeshua from.

The gospel is for ALL peoples. We should not exclude anyone from hearing it, and should not teach people to exclude certain people groups from hearing it. Shalom

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

Yes indeed and the Word is more important than(www.iam.the.world's.greatest.authority.on.heresy.even.though.i.know.diddly.squat.about.the.bible.com}

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First, I have never implied that I am the world's greatest authority on anything. I most assuredly am not.
Second, to imply that I don't know "diddly squat" about the bible is not only false, but it's rude and stupid.

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Please don't try to turn it around to make it look like I was personally referring to you. I was talking about all of these ridiculous sites that everyone keeps cutting and pasting.

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Originally posted by hardcore:

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

Yes indeed and the Word is more important than(www.iam.the.world's.greatest.authority.on.heresy.even.though.i.know.diddly.squat.about.the.bible.com}

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First, I have never implied that I am the world's greatest authority on anything. I most assuredly am not.
Second, to imply that I don't know "diddly squat" about the bible is not only false, but it's rude and stupid.

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

Yes indeed and the Word is more important than(www.iam.the.world's.greatest.authority.on.heresy.even.though.i.know.diddly.squat.about.the.bible.com}

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Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
It seems to me that the "exposing false teaching" forum is more of a way of stiffling discussion than anything else. I dont think that Hardcore was doing anything out of line... it was a simple matter of conversation to share those thoughts on Hagee and they were the truth.

Hagee is not alone either there are many people who do not feel like we need to evangelize the Jew today and even that it is insult to them that we do.

I really think that we ought to be able to have conversation with out someone censoring what forum we are posting in. Hardcore did not start a thread to speak against Hagee in the Bible Studies forum, she just stated a simple fact.

If she had stated it to me and I did not want to hear it I would have just told her
so. "Hardcore, I like Hagee and I dont want to know or hear from you his faults."

Why do we always have to be harassing people about where they are posting? I have posted things in the Bible studies forum and been told I was not positng in the right place and David himself has posted in that same thread and found no offense or need to move the topic. Why must we always be trying to censor or dictate what someone has to share?

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
I often agree with sister HisGrace, but I also agree with you in this one case about the part that for example, I {BORN AGAIN} do not need ANY specialized forum for anything. I'll talk to you you anytime anywhere. I suppose it might have been tiring to Paul to spend a day and a half in the drink, but then I never tire of hearing where we can do better.

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Originally posted by hardcore:
It does indeed get tiring having to continually remind Christians that God's Word is the Truth, and that it's important, and that it's more important than tv evangelists.

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