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Originally posted by rancan6776:
Knowone knows for sure what the "thorn" in Paul's side was. It sure did bother Paul though didn't it? In fact Paul asked God to remove it three times and God said no Paul your faith is not enough. Oh that is not what He said He said my GRACE is sufficient. It had nothing to do with his measure of faith. Im sure Paul was a man of little faith anyway.

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Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:
Wild b

In the days that Jesus walked the earth in His ministry, all Jews knew the Levitical Law. They taught it to their children just as we teach our children their ABC's.

They knew it like most of us used to know American History or how to add 2 + 2.

They probably knew it better in the general public than the average secular Jewish person does now. Just like during the American Revolution War times children at age 6 could read the Bible and write thesis' better than the average college student now a days.

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Originally posted by wparr:
How about Lazazarus being raised from the dead.

He had no faith working - he was dead.

He was raised from the dead because it was God's will.

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John 5:25
"Verily, verily I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

Granted, I agree, that Lazarus hardly expected Jesus to raise him from the dead. Martha didn't even believe THAT. She said Jesus was too late.

They did have faith that Jesus was going to heal Lazarus.

Lazarus heard the voice of the Son of God.

Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by WhiteEagle:

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
WhiteEagle writes

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Don't say it's been proved that Faith is not required for healing unless you can really back it up. Internet preachers who write articles doesn't cut it.

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Consider the paralytic man at the pool of Bethesda. He had no idea who Jesus was or that Jesus was even coming, probably until Jesus picked him out of the crowd and said, "rise up and walk" and "immediately"...

Or consider the dead maiden about whom Jesus said, "she sleeps" and they laughed him to scorn. Did the dead maiden exercise faith?

God bless, BORN AGAIN

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John 5:1-15 is the story of the infirm man who couldn't walk for 38 years. He was lying beside a pool known for healing. Bethesda means "house of mercy".

He could never get into the water first as he had no one to assist him into the water, yet he stayed there waiting for a miracle.

He was Jewish, he knew about the Messiah and the promises. He didn't know who Jesus was when he met Him.

When Jesus told him to take up his bed on walk on the Sabbath Day, he had faith enough to do it. He must have known the Religious Jews would not be pleased that he was healed on the Sabbath. Scripture shows that this was the first thing they remarked upon. That man could have decided to not had faith and just laid there until the pool's waters moved again.
In verse 14 on John 5, Jesus instructs the man "behold thou art made whole, sin no more. lest a worse thing come upon thee."

Faith is more than saying we have faith, it's being obedient to Jesus. Actions speak louder than words.

The young girl was Jairus' daughter. Jairus certainly had faith as he sought Jesus out personally and fell at Jesus' feet. When they got news that the girl had died, Jesus said in Mark 5:36 "Be not afraid, only believe."

These people had faith in Jesus after they met Him.

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So do you really think that a man waiting for the water to rise in a fisher understood the complex Levitical law?

Kind of reminds me of the poor during Luthers day when with money you could buy anything from the Chruch/God.

What did they call them. Oh thats right indulgences

So now tell the baseball fans how we may purchase yours.

From what you post I think walking sinnlessly.

Humm.


And I mite remind you of the rest of the scripture that you always seam to not mention.

that very hour

Matt.15

1. [28] Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Matt.17

1. [18] And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.

Matt.8

[13] And Jesus said unto the centurion(gentile), Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.


When healing is not the door that is open then soldier on thru that door of GRACE.



~

And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
WhiteEagle writes

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Don't say it's been proved that Faith is not required for healing unless you can really back it up. Internet preachers who write articles doesn't cut it.

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Consider the paralytic man at the pool of Bethesda. He had no idea who Jesus was or that Jesus was even coming, probably until Jesus picked him out of the crowd and said, "rise up and walk" and "immediately"...

Or consider the dead maiden about whom Jesus said, "she sleeps" and they laughed him to scorn. Did the dead maiden exercise faith?

God bless, BORN AGAIN

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Don't say it's been proved that Faith is not required for healing unless you can really back it up. Internet preachers who write articles doesn't cut it.

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Consider the paralytic man at the pool of Bethesda. He had no idea who Jesus was or that Jesus was even coming, probably until Jesus picked him out of the crowd and said, "rise up and walk" and "immediately"...

Or consider the dead maiden about whom Jesus said, "she sleeps" and they laughed him to scorn. Did the dead maiden exercise faith?

God bless, BORN AGAIN

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Originally posted by Caretaker:
On December 8, 1999, Joni Eareckson Tada was on the Bible Answer Man, and made the following devastating comments about Word-Faith teachings:

"Kenneth Copeland or Kenneth Hagin or Benny Hinn - they've never called me and asked me to come on their program.

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
sister TEXASGRANDMA writes

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sees who is in the room, leaves quietly. some people will never learn.
betty

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Hug?

sister WhiteEagle you write that faith is needed to be healed" (my paraphrase of what you said).

On the other hand, sister WhiteEagle, it has been shown in several recent threads here that faith does not need to be present in the recipient in order for that recipient to be healed.

One example was the ruler who came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, come down with me and heal my son" and Jesus said, "I will NOT come down with you, but go, your son is healed" and the ruler believed Jesus and went his way and when he got close to home, his servants met him with the good news that his son had gotten better yesterday, at that hour.

The son who was near death probably exercised no faith whatsoever in this miracle. The article posted by SoftTouch seems very excellent on the subject.

Also, Jesus said (my paraphrase), "this kind only goes out with prayer and fasting, not just with faith, and so on.

Anyway, God bless you. I am BORN AGAIN by the shed blood of Yahshua-Jesus of Nazareth, but born in Bethlehem of Judah, of the family of David, as was promised in the Scriptures ("just fishin'")

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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In The Tongue, a Creative Force (1976), positive confessionist Charles Capps, teaches that there are powerful "spiritual" words. Such words, which are ordinary words, can under certain circumstances, become vehicles for creative or supernatural power.

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But is it not also true that they are saying, "look, you can let out of your mouth come what you want, but I am going to try to speak God's kind of words, for they are learned from the Bible and I like them better, and they will have better results in life, than Lucifer-Satan's words that I had learned until now."

Are they not also saying that, brother WildB?

May the LORD God of Israel bless all who participate on this CBBS, I am BORN AGAIN by the of Yahshua-Jesus

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sees who is in the room, leaves quietly. some people will never learn.
betty

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Originally posted by BORN AGAIN:
So in a nutshell...who IS getting healed? There have been healings over the centuries, but woefully few compared to the prayers offered up for healing.

What was it then? Little faith? Great faith? God-given faith only? Is it God alone who chooses whom to heal?

But didn't Jesus take all of our stripes already and therefore we as bornagain Christian have almost, as it were, a "God-given legal" right to healing?

Let's say, for fun, that every bornagain Christian who raised up a prayer for healing to the LORD God of Israel and to His Son Yahshua-Jesus, was healed. Wouldn't that be a great testimony to the world.

"they wanted to see miracles, but not necessarily believe in Him"

In Jesus's First Coming to Israel in the 1st century A.D., He did not many miracles either. Does that mean that in these "last days" also not many miracles were done?

Or will it be, as a poster here recently said, that the Body of Christ will "yet do greater exploits than Jesus did" because "Jesus said we would"?

John 14:12
Truly I say to you, He who believes on Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to My Father.

So, what seems to be the problem?

God bless, BORN AGAIN

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Posts: 1392 | From: Maine | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by HisGrace:
Once again my words are falling on deaf ears.

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Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by HisGrace:

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Originally posted by Caretaker:
On December 8, 1999, Joni Eareckson Tada was on the Bible Answer Man, and made the following devastating comments about Word-Faith teachings:

"Kenneth Copeland or Kenneth Hagin or Benny Hinn - they've never called me and asked me to come on their program.

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SO???? Devastating?? I would give anything to know the proper context of that statement. The rest of the article has nothing to do with them.

I really don't see what your point is Caretaker??

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Positive Confession

Positive Confession is the belief that if a believer speaks "spiritual" or "faith-filled" words then he can have what he says. Unfortunately, this influence has invaded the church and continues to cause much turmoil and confusion.

Many of the teachers of the word-faith movement believe that words are so powerful that they can influence the physical and spiritual worlds. For example:

In The Tongue, a Creative Force (1976), positive confessionist Charles Capps, teaches that there are powerful "spiritual" words. Such words, which are ordinary words, can under certain circumstances, become vehicles for creative or supernatural power.

When "faith-filled" spiritual words are spoken (as words of power), they can alter the physical and spiritual world. Capps says, "You see there is more to it than just saying it. The words must originate from the inner man where spiritual power is released through words."

He goes on to state that "spirit words can control both the spirit world and the physical world. Because the words themselves have power, they will work for either God or man in the same manner." He goes on:

"The spirit of man is not of this world, it is of the spirit world. The creative ability of man comes through his spirit. He speaks spirit words that work in the world of the spirit. They will also dominate the physical world. He breathes spirit life into God's Word and it becomes a living substance, working for him as it worked for God in the beginning. These spirit words dominate the natural world" (p. 117-118).

What Capps is alluding to in the above statement is his teaching that since God, "by His faith" (using words) spoke this physical world into existence; the believer, using faith, can do the same. That is, the believer can speak things into existence. However, God's word is already "quick and powerful" (Hebrews 4:12), and it is referred to as the "Word of Life" (Phillipians 2:16). It is not necessary to activate it by speaking words of faith as though it were asleep or dead! Rather, it is by hearing the "living" word that one is brought to salvation through faith in Christ. (Romans 10:17)

A number of the prosperity teachers believe that the spiritual world controls and continually forms the physical world. So, if one can learn to control the spiritual world, then he can learn to control the physical world as well. This teaching then becomes the foundation for securing individual prosperity.

That is why in Releasing the Ability of God, Capps states, "You can have what you say! (because) the powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth. This force comes from inside us; the confession of our mouth will cause you to possess it" (pp. 98-99, parenthesis mine). This is why he teaches, "Discipline your vocabulary," and "today your word is god over your circumstances" (pp. 101-104).

Capps also teaches that the power within a Christian, within one's spirit, functions according to unchangeable laws. He says "These principles of faith are based on spiritual laws. They work for whosoever will apply these laws" (The Tongue, p. 103).

D. R. McConnell, in his book, A Different Gospel, directly traces the origin the spiritual laws taught in positive confession to the metaphysics of E.W. Kenyon, a man of 50-60 years ago whose theology was that of Pentecostal Christian Science (A Different Gospel, pp. 3-56).

McConnell records Kenneth Copeland in The Laws of Prosperity (p. 98, 101) as saying, "You can have what you say! In fact, what you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying. It will change what you have. Discipline your vocabulary. God will be obligated to meet your needs because of His word. If you stand firmly on this, your needs will be met" (Ibid., p. 173).

McConnell further states, that E.W. Kenyon's New Thought classmate, Ralph Waldo Trine, attributes the confession of prosperity to "Occult power." He says that "Trine believed that thought is a force, and it has Occult power of unknown proportions when rightly used and wisely directed" (Ibid., p. 174).

The usage of Occult powers is, of course, a practice that the Word-Faith teachers would publicly reject. Of course, this is not to say that those offering these teachings are Occultists. They are teachers who may never have thought through the implications of the practices they advocate. They may be unaware of the similarities between certain aspects of positive confession and Occulict practices. Nevertheless, the similarities do exist, and these practices are neither Biblical nor Christian.

John Ankerberg's issue of News and Views, June 1988, p. 1, reports that these words are used in religious rituals to influence both the spirit world and the material world. The report quotes Occult magician David Conway discussing the power of magical words to affect these worlds:

"Unseparable from magical speculation about words is the theory of vibrations, which supposes that certain sounds have a powerful acoustic impact on both the spiritual and astral worlds. Like the spiritual world and astral plane can in some circumstances be affected by sound, so that verbal magic may be said to derive its power not only from the idea contained in certain words, but from the peculiar vibrations these words create when spoken" (Magic: an Occult Primer, pp. 74-75).

Occultists, of course, have long claimed the true inner nature of man is powerful, capable of exercising divine ability. This is why New Ager Benjamin Creme says, for example, "One doesn't pray to oneself, one prays to the God within. The thing is to learn to invoke that energy which is the energy of God. Prayer and worship as we know it today will gradually die out and men will be trained to invoke the (inner) power of deity" (The Reappearance of Christ and the Masters of Wisdom, pp. 135-136, parenthesis mine).

The reason that positive confessionists can place so much emphasis on the inner man and his divine power is that they think the believer is a god. Kenneth Copeland says, "You don't have a god in you, you are one" (Copeland's sermon tape The Force of Love). And Kenneth Hagin says, "The believer is as much an incarnation of God as Jesus Christ" (Hagin, Word of Faith, p. 14).

To the positive confessionist, scripture passages such as Proverbs 18:21, "Death and Life are in the power of the tongue;" and James 3:8-10 are taken as proof of this doctrine, because they believe as "little gods" they have the same power as God through their own words.

Is it any wonder that Charles Capps says "The confession of your mouth even after you have prayed correctly will determine whether or not you receive. You can release the ability of God through the words of your mouth" (Releasing the Ability of God, 1978, pp. 93, 96).

For Christians words and faith are important, but there is a limit to what words can do.

It can help or hurt a close friend or a total stranger by what one says, but to treat words as if they were some "star wars" type weapon by which one alters or manipulates reality is not biblical, but Occultic. If one could change reality by the power of words spoken, then that would put man on the same level with God. This is exactly what teachers of the "positive confession," or word-faith movement, claim.

We are told by God Himself that He spoke the creation into existence (Genesis 1). He has not given that power to anyone else!

http://www.watchman.org/reltop/posconf.htm

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That is all.....

Posts: 8775 | From: USA, MICHIGAN | Registered: Mar 2004  |  IP: Logged | 

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Originally posted by Caretaker:
On December 8, 1999, Joni Eareckson Tada was on the Bible Answer Man, and made the following devastating comments about Word-Faith teachings:

"Kenneth Copeland or Kenneth Hagin or Benny Hinn - they've never called me and asked me to come on their program.

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