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Topic: Government = Forced Morality?
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BrianGrass1234
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quote:
Originally posted by EL3LN3TN:
Even tho, realistically, the "morality" you're claiming was developed by others and instilled in you by others (parents/school/church etc)....
My point is that whether my moral code was developed by myself, or adopted from others, I am responsible for keeping my self to it. Likewise, it is up to others to keep to their moral codes and it is not my responsibility to keep them to my own morals that I have claimed for myself.
quote:
Originally posted by EL3LN3TN:
At this point I'd have to ask - apparently you pay NO taxes whatsoever??...or desire to pay no taxes whatsoever??...and by "others", are you referring to personal aquaintances of yours??...or "others" in the form of "society at large"??
I pay taxes for two reasons. #1 I believe we are instructed to obey the laws of the land, unless they directly oppose God's instruction. #2 I don't want to get hauled off to prison.
I think it is not right to force others to pay for services that they have no choice in and I think it is wrong for others force the same upon me.
Others refers to anyone other than myself.
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Originally posted by EL3LN3TN:
Unfortunately modern civilization does'nt work that way. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Check into the word solipsism sometime.
I think it should.
solipsism - this is all in my head, but I have to entertain myself somehow. ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif)
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
Yes ME, ME, ME. I need to be responsible for MY own morality and not that of others.
Even tho, realistically, the "morality" you're claiming was developed by others and instilled in you by others (parents/school/church etc)....
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I need to responsible for MY own defence and not the defence of others. I need to be responsible for paying for the goods and services I decide to partake of and not that of others, and not having services forced upon me.
At this point I'd have to ask - apparently you pay NO taxes whatsoever??...or desire to pay no taxes whatsoever??...and by "others", are you referring to personal aquaintances of yours??...or "others" in the form of "society at large"??
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
So yes ME, ME, ME. I want to govern MYself and not others. I do not want others governing ME.
Unfortunately modern civilization does'nt work that way.
Check into the word solipsism sometime.
btw - Strictly speaking - you would not even be able to rely on the others who run this message board (or the internet itself!!) to post your sentiments in this area!
The idea of complete personal autonomy is an unfortunate illusion.
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BrianGrass1234
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Yes ME, ME, ME. I need to be responsible for MY own morality and not that of others. I need to responsible for MY own defence and not the defence of others. I need to be responsible for paying for the goods and services I decide to partake of and not that of others, and not having services forced upon me.
So yes ME, ME, ME. I want to govern MYself and not others. I do not want others governing ME.
I think this is very scriptural. We are responsible for our own actions and in the end we will be held accountable. We are not to force others to act or behave certain ways. How many times did Jesus, or anyone else use violent force to control others behavior in the Bible. The only examples you will find will be under God's specific command or outside of God's will. The old law did call for violent punishment for immoral behavior, but we are no longer bound by the punishments called for by the law as the punishment for all sin has been taken for us already by Jesus.
Every thing boils down to this. I believe the use of violence is wrong accept for self defense or the defense of others. Even the use of violence in self defense could be argued as not right.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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...so really then...you think the "ideal Christian world-view society" or whatever is one completely devoid of laws, regulation, personal responsibility, even government...and everything is geared towards ME!-ME!-ME! and MY pleasure, and heroic visions of EGO-as-GOD and whatnot (supported by scripture, of course)!?
**funny - I'd also need to add "conquering", humiliating and eventually killing one's fellow citizens as well, I guess.
....at least you did'nt include terrorizing family-planning clinics or killing reproductive service providers in your anti-government wish list ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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EL3LN3TN
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First off, realistically, I doubt if all these points relate to <you> personally! ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ![[Confused]](confused.gif) ...but let me ask...do you feel these all somehow violate your Christian beliefs, or your perceptions of a Christian(?) society?
..let's break them down a bit:
*Manufacture and sell automatic weapons.
*Fight pit bulls in my backyard.
*build a bomb
Seriously....you think these activities should be completely legal, and unregulated??? <LOL> Amongst the entire U.S. population??? Really??? You're serious, right??
*Give hair cuts and charge for it.(This goes for almost any profession if you don't pay the extortion fees first)
Sorry, but extortion itself is a crime. I think what you're referring to is licensing, certification and incorporation laws.
*Allow smoking in my restaraunt.
Yeah, but what about the (apparent) majority of non-smokers who confirmed & supported this no-smoking legislation thru the democratic process?
Pay the man who works for me $20 an hour, but only pay the woman $10 and say its because she's a woman.
<LOL!> Seriously - that would be your reasoning in a situation such as this??
*broadcast a radio signal.
...think of the mess we'd have if everyone were just allowed to do this, willy-nilly.
*Serve alcohol to 16 year olds.
You think this should be allowed then, correct??
*Grow marijuana and sell it.
*Sell my extra valuume pills.
(valium) - So it appears you enjoy intoxication? Chances are, THOUSANDS get away with this daily, no problem, but theoretically it becomes organized crime/underground economy with unfortunate behavioral, and crime-related side effects...but you think in a "scriptural" society, or whatever this should be allowed??
*take the cat converter off my car.
*carry $100,000 in cash in my car.
*keep my .45 in my coat.
I'd have to suggest these to be legally "negotiable" via zoning laws, licensing, and permits, and are not in all cases, prosecutable as crimes.
*Sell a product that is so good no one can compete.
A very rare occurrence! Technology is almost always shared, amongst developing parties...but then you always have your weird little niche items like a super-fast potato slicer for left-handers.
Maybe you'd need to even cite an example of this yourself!
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BrianGrass1234
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Lets see:
Manufacture and sell automatic weapons.
Grow marijuana and sell it.
Sell my extra valuume pills.
Give hair cuts and charge for it.(This goes for almost any profession if you don't pay the extortion fees first)
build a duplex in my backyard.
build a bomb.
broadcast a radio signal.
take the cat converter off my car.
carry $100,000 in cash in my car.
keep my .45 in my coat.
Pay the man who works for me $20 an hour, but only pay the woman $10 and say its because she's a woman.
Allow smoking in my restaraunt.
Serve alcohol to 16 year olds.
Fight pit bulls in my backyard.
Sell a product that is so good no one can compete.
Theres a few.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
I thought it was funny how in our current government it is not lawful to do what we wish with our own things.
Really, that's quite vague. You'd need to cite specific examples of what you mean by "things" and what you want to "do" with them, and how the government (U.S. I assume?) interferes in this. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
...as to the scriptural example, it seems to be a matter of "employee beware!" as they did'nt apparently understand correctly that the pay was daily, and not hourly.
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BrianGrass1234
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I just wanted to post the parable TexasGrandma posted in the Hell thread from Matt. 19 and 20.
The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard
20"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 Now when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, 4 and said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.' So they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing *idle, and said to them, 'Why have you been standing here idle all day?' 7 They said to him, 'Because no one hired us.' He said to them, 'You also go into the vineyard, *and whatever is right you will receive.'
8 "So when evening had come, the owner of the vineyard said to his steward, 'Call the laborers and give them their wages, beginning with the last to the first.' 9 And when those came who were hired about the eleventh hour, they each received a denarius. 10 But when the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise received each a denarius. 11 And when they had received it, they complained against the landowner, 12 saying, 'These last men have worked only one hour, and you made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the heat of the day.' 13 But he answered one of them and said, 'Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things? Or is your eye evil because I am good?' 16 So the last will be first, and the first last. For* many are called, but few chosen."
I thought it was funny how in our current government it is not lawful to do what we wish with our own things.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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Don't you know the illuminati are just the tool of the Draconians to enslave the human race. ![[pound]](graemlins/pound.gif)
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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hmmm...ok...but when you used the term "Christian colonists'..the year 1960(!) did'nt really spring to mind, in my case anyways.
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I was a student of US history and am aware of the current revealing of illuminati (or foreign banking/political) influence on the US government.
Who(?) exactly is "revealing" this? I'm not really aware.
The "Illuminati world-conspiracy" stuff is propaganda created & mostly distributed by freemasons.
The term "Illuminati" itself is mostly a generic one for a ruling elite or board of directors, and to my knowledge no such worldwide organization exists, by name. It's masonic story-telling, mostly.
Yeah - "Cuting edge.org" is a freemason website itself(!) <LOL!> the head guy there is an independent fundamentalist who claims he was into "super secret crypto" for the U.S. Gov't!! Ha! Ha! Ha! Hahh...
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JohnL
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hi:
I was referring to a government based on a good understanding of christian principles as far as possibly 1960, when americans seemed to give away much of their christian heritage for the entertainment and glamor of the world. And that's not hard to do, because the Lord had to extricate me from watching (too much) all those attractive girls on television dramas.
I was a student of US history and am aware of the current revealing of illuminati (or foreign banking/political) influence on the US government. I don't agree with everything at the Cutting Edge website, but it does reveal many of the illuminati-type undercurrents that have subtly influenced american government and way of life since colonial times, especially when there was a need to borrow money from foreign bankers. Where true christian faith flourishes, satan tries to work in parallel with counterfeit agendas that look more genuine and acceptable than truly good government.
Jesus told the parable of the tares in Matthew 13:
Matthew 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
In a way the illuminati promises a government "free" from "forced morality." But it might be a type of pied piper leading the children into bondage.
John
Posts: 119 | From: Portland, OR | Registered: Sep 2002
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnL:
That’s why the democracy (or republic) established by the christian colonists was good because it was based on good, disciplined christian faith.
John
Hi - I always wonder just a bit, when I hear these sort of references - you're referring to the colonial democracy/republic prior to the 1787-1791 U.S. Constitutional government?
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JohnL
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The less government supports biblical morals such as the 10 commandments and Jesus’ 2 all-encompassing commandments, to love God and to love one’s neighbor – the more loopholes the citizenry can find toward immorality and disrespect to the point of lust and violence against their fellow citizens, resulting in harsher government regulation.
A good democracy ultimately depends on true christian faith, because man’s sinful nature can find ways around legislation, and some legislation itself might be corrupt. That’s why the democracy (or republic) established by the christian colonists was good because it was based on good, disciplined christian faith.
John
Posts: 119 | From: Portland, OR | Registered: Sep 2002
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BrianGrass1234
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Well I guess I can only speak for were I live and thats in the USA. All the laws and regulations I can think of will always end up with violence being used if I continually refuse to follow them. It doesn't matter if its real crimes like theft, assult, murder or if its non criminal like getting profesional licenses, traffic laws or zoning restrictions. It seems to me like thats forced morality.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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kllane
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Morality: The concept of human ethics which pertains to matters of good and evil-also referred to as "right". If government does not have controll over these things, who do we leave the responsibility to,the people? Oboviously that won't work since we have thieft,murder,rape abuse of all kinds. As for the Ten commandments, is the problem people have with them is because they came from God? If they were a list of basic common curtesies,they seem pretty resonable to me.Don't murder, Don't steal, Don't covet, Honor thy father and mother,(that's a hard one today with so may single parent families,divorce ect.)
Here's the ones that get you Thou shalt have no other gods before me, and love the Lord thy God with all you've got.Without government forced morality as you put it what would we do? What would our children do, or our parents and grandparents? Some people are not moral except in their eyes, or should I say some people are not immoral in their eyes!
Thank God we live in a place where some morality is government enforced.
Kathy ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
Posts: 35 | From: texas | Registered: Dec 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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Ok as far as Gov't. = Forced morality - yes there ARE ordinances & regulations concerning "lewd conduct" "immoral/immorality" (I think the term's used) "public indecency" etc etc...but these pertain to special situations, usually on public property, and often only concerning persons who run liquor, entertainment establishments, or sometimes media outlets, and rarely schools or childcare centers...
It does'nt really encompass the overall purpose of "government", tho (imho) & tends to be at the local level only.
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EL3LN3TN
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Well, in case you're interested - here's a couple -
Christian Anarchy-Wiki
or
Even more Christian Anarchy
Personally, I've always felt there's a subjective/objective circular logic problem with the stuff ![[spiny]](graemlins/spiny.gif) having been in a couple other online discussions with Christian Anarchists - it seemms to appeal to the 13-25 yr old age group.
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Yes you could label me as a "Christian Anarchist" as I don't believe I have the right to assert authority over anyone else and no other human has the right to assert authority over me, unless it involves their property. I haven't quit figured out if I have the right to assert authority over my property...
Whoa!..ok hold it - I'm quite positive Christian Anarchism does not at all support the concept of personal private property ownership, and is strongly collectivist-leaning (Communistic if you will).
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To EL3LN3TN:
You said Government does not enforce morality directly, but then you list areas where the government upholds moral values in different areas:
"It's main purpose ends up being the regulation of commerce and corporate enterprise, the protection of public and private property, and international affairs (plus a few others, the list could get a bit long)"
The method in which government governs is through violent force.
That last one really seems to be a very vague & sweeping generalization!!
It depends very much on the country & government.
Yes, the "govt. by violent force" part may be true in little tin-horn African dictatorships, very occasionally Communist regimes (oops!- see my previous remarks on Christian anarchy!) or during times of war, but I hardly at all see it applying to most ALL of the current-era Western democratic countries.
If you intend to mean the U.S. with this claim, could you cite examples of this, that would threaten, say, the average, everyday citizen in this country??....an atmosphere, or constant threat of "violent force"?
quote:
So when the government says that stealing is immoral, it threatens you with violence if you steal. That is forced morality as I see it.
No, the government in this country makes no claims of specific acts being "immoral", & basing punishment upon that, specifically. Gotta disagree. (However see my next post )
quote:
You can say you may get fined or some other punishment that is not using force, but as soon as you refuse the non violent punishment, the violence does come.
So it appears to me that government is forced morality.
You really need to clarify what you mean by "violence" in this case.
Physical attack & injury?
Use of weapons?
I think you mean "escalating levels of enforcement" but I don't think in all cases this results in violence, and really is a completely logical reaction to non-compliance.
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BrianGrass1234
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To EL3LN3TN:
You said Government does not enforce morality directly, but then you list areas where the government upholds moral values in different areas:
"It's main purpose ends up being the regulation of commerce and corporate enterprise, the protection of public and private property, and international affairs (plus a few others, the list could get a bit long)"
The method in which government governs is through violent force.
So when the government says that stealing is immoral, it threatens you with violence if you steal. That is forced morality as I see it.
You can say you may get fined or some other punishment that is not using force, but as soon as you refuse the non violent punishment, the violence does come.
So it appears to me that government is forced morality.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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BrianGrass1234
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To EL3LN3TN:
Sorry I haven't posted in a long time, been pretty busy. Anyway
Yes you could label me as a "Christian Anarchist" as I don't believe I have the right to assert authority over anyone else and no other human has the right to assert authority over me, unless it involves their property. I haven't quit figured out if I have the right to assert authority over my property, but that comes with the Christian part. The Christian part also says that I do submit to God's authority over my life. So you could call me a Christian Anarchist. I don't know what I would call me, anarchist always carries such a negative conontation.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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kllane
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Thanks Pastor Mann for that very stable answer, I just entered the discussion, and my head was swimming wondering what in the world had happened to the question. Thanks God for the 10 commandments also, without them we would'nt really know what or how God originally intended for his creation to live in harmony with Him and with others.
Love in Christ, Kathy
Posts: 35 | From: texas | Registered: Dec 2006
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artm
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Hi Folks.
The Ten Commandments are just that, Commandments. As someone said, They are not ten suggestions,But Commandments.
They are indeed Commandments given by God for the benifit of mankind. To suggest that is some kind of wrong committed by God is foolish.
While Government cannot ledgeislate Morality ( That comes from a changed heart)
Still without Government enforced laws society would be in chaos.
The Ten Commandments are Gods Moral Law. Anyone not obeying these Laws are considered Immoral by God.
We all need Gods Grace here. But at the same time, While God does not come down and force us to obey these commands, We will one day stand before God and give account for not obeying.
Now there are some who won't like what I have said, Thats ok, Because it doesn't matter what we like or don't like, God will have His way in the end.
The Government is ordained by God to enforce His Moral Law upon Mankind, " Thou shalt not kill " Thou shalt not steal.
A School Teacher asked her class of third graders, " Why is it wrong to steal "
I did not get to hear their answers, But I know why it is wrong to steal.
Because One of Gods great Ten commandments says, Thou shalt not steal.
Mankind is so depraved that if God had not told us that stealing is wrong, We would not have known, And no doubt would think that it was ok to take from others what belongs to them.
Why is Society embraceing same sex marriage ? Because they either do not know Gods command against such, Or they just don't care what God has to say on the subject.
Either way, This is one of Gods Moral Laws that Mankinkind will have to account for before God.
Well,Thats my two cents worth.
God bless. Pastor Mann
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EL3LN3TN
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btw - judging from the line of questioning in your original (1st) post, are you a "Christian Anarchist" or something similar???
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EL3LN3TN
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No, not directly.
It's main purpose ends up being the regulation of commerce and corporate enterprise, the protection of public and private property, and international affairs (plus a few others, the list could get a bit long)
"Morality" is only a secondary, or even 3rd-level factor, "Good and Bad" being mostly subjective (individual feelings and opinions) anyways - same w/ so-called "moral absolutes".
But if ya want:
"GOOD" = A balanced, sensibly regulated economy and commerce, protection of private & public properties, domestic tranquility etc....
"BAD" = Lawlessness, anarchy, erosion of ownership rights, unregulated laissez faire predatory capitalism etc...
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BrianGrass1234
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The "ten commandments" have gone off my original question. So I want to go back to my original question. Does the government force morality? And if so, is that in line with the Bible?
Morality generally meaning "right and wrong"
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
You get thrown in jail after being judged and found guilty.
erm...not necessarily. One could be just put on probation, or made to pay a fine or restitution...or appeal the guilty verdict & have it overturned.
Not really nitpicking, but maybe just trying to expand the horizons on this a bit..
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The difference I was speaking of was Gods authority is valid as he is God.
Mans authority is not valid, but the guns are very real.
Really? ...so you seem to be saying that current laws; Federal, state, local, revised codes etc that were obviously formulated by "man" are not valid ?????? How do you arrive at this???
They are validated every time they are enforced, I'm afraid.
However:
"Gods authority is valid as he is God."
Sorry, but that's nonsense. Validation has to come from external second, or third party sources, from an actual validation process, which is validating that a system or item actually does fulfill it's intended function.
Take an example:
A new toaster.
I can say "the toaster is 'valid'; or has been validated - because it's (obviously) a toaster"
..it turns out the toaster is zero percent functional (does'nt work at all) and is missing just about all it's internal connectors & wiring.
Conclusion: Sorry, but it's not valid as a "toaster" at all - the original assumption was totally unsupportable.
You'll probably assume that's a really huge stretch of examples, but all I can say is: "as above, so below" ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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BrianGrass1234
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"There seems to be a timeline problem here(?). What I'm reading in your claim, is that at some unspecified future time when I stand in judgement (I will be making a judgement? [Confused] ) I will "feel the 10 commandments forced upon me" - I'll be forced to uphold them, in executing my judgement, correct?
"...and you didn't accept Christ as your savior."
umm...that seems a little out of left-field, in the context of the "judgement" scenario. I'm not really understanding you at this point. "
I'm talking about when the individual stands in judgement, not judging, but being judged. (I guess I worded it poorly)
"Oh yeah? [Roll Eyes]
Just wondering - are you posting from the United States?? One does not necessarily just get "thrown in jail for not following our government's commands" One can litigate, and is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasinable doubt
...you also seem to be implying that we are subject to 2 different penal codes, a present, real-time one, and then a proposed future-tense one. Bummer. ...but seems a bit over-simplified. [Wink]"
You get thrown in jail after being judged and found guilty.
"Y'know seriously - I think you need a more fully developed definition of how the first "authority" you mention works.
Personally, I'm not seeing much of a difference. Try this:
"a group of men with guns who use violent force to maintain their authority....and who operate in the name of an all powerful and all knowing God that executes perfect justice."
The difference I was speaking of was Gods authority is valid as he is God.
Mans authority is not valid, but the guns are very real.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
You will feel them forced upon you when you stand in judgement and you didn't accept Christ as your savior.
There seems to be a timeline problem here(?). What I'm reading in your claim, is that at some unspecified future time when I stand in judgement (I will be making a judgement? ) I will "feel the 10 commandments forced upon me" - I'll be forced to uphold them, in executing my judgement, correct?
"...and you didn't accept Christ as your savior."
umm...that seems a little out of left-field, in the context of the "judgement" scenario. I'm not really understanding you at this point.
quote:
Originally posted by BrianGrass1234:
You will get tossed in with satan and his followers with the rest who didn't follow God's commands. Just like you get thrown in jail for not following our governments commands that were set down in law.
Oh yeah?
Just wondering - are you posting from the United States?? One does not necessarily just get "thrown in jail for not following our government's commands" One can litigate, and is innocent until proven guilty beyond reasinable doubt
...you also seem to be implying that we are subject to 2 different penal codes, a present, real-time one, and then a proposed future-tense one. Bummer. ...but seems a bit over-simplified.
quote:
The difference is one authority is an all powerful and all knowing God that executes perfect justice. The other is just a group of men with guns who use violent force to maintain their authority.
Y'know seriously - I think you need a more fully developed definition of how the first "authority" you mention works.
Personally, I'm not seeing much of a difference. Try this:
"a group of men with guns who use violent force to maintain their authority....and who operate in the name of an all powerful and all knowing God that executes perfect justice.
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becauseHElives
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quote:
BrianGrass1234 ,
You will feel them forced upon you…
Very good thought Brian, the only reason someone feels something is forced on them is if they somehow think that being imposed on them is taking away their rights of free choice.
Law’s of man can be unfair and for purposes that put men in bondage to other men, but Yahweh’s Laws are never to put man in bondage or to hurt man in any way.
Yahweh’s Laws are always to better man’s relationship with Him and with other men.
Prisons are full because Laws by themselves can not be forced to be complied with by force. Only when man surrenders his/her free choice to the will/ Law of Yahweh by the intermediary Yeshua can man not be in bondage to do that which is wrong against himself, other men and Yahweh and thus truly be free.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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doGon
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quote:
The difference is one authority is an all powerful and all knowing God that executes perfect justice. The other is just a group of men with guns who use violent force to maintain their authority.
Another difference, a rather large difference, is that we actually know that the 'group of men with guns' exists....
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BrianGrass1234
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You will feel them forced upon you when you stand in judgement and you didn't accept Christ as your savior. You will get tossed in with satan and his followers with the rest who didn't follow God's commands. Just like you get thrown in jail for not following our governments commands that were set down in law.
The difference is one authority is an all powerful and all knowing God that executes perfect justice. The other is just a group of men with guns who use violent force to maintain their authority.
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EL3LN3TN
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hmmm....I don't feel I've ever had them "forced" on me Who(?) or what agency does the enforcing of the Biblical/Hebraic 10 commandments??
"The 10 commandments are forced morality. To break them is sin, the wages of sin is death."
...I think what you might be trying to say here..is that they are "absolute" or irrefutable, or whatever....like: Jump from 45 feet off a rooftop to a cement sidewalk, and you will very likely suffer mortal injury - the irrefutable immutable of gravity.
But I'd have to disagree with that, as they are really just proscribed behavioral guidelines for an early community.
Example: I really doubt if death can be directly attributed to coveting another persons property.
"To Kill someone is the use of force. However, since God is our creator, and is the embodyment of love and justice, then he does have the authority, and him alone, to force morality upon mankind. Men do not have the authority to force morality upon other men unless it is consensual. (men meaning men and women).
Just wondering if you could cite a current, real world example of "God forcing morality" upon a people or persons.
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BrianGrass1234
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The 10 commandments are forced morality. To break them is sin, the wages of sin is death. To Kill someone is the use of force. However, since God is our creator, and is the embodyment of love and justice, then he does have the authority, and him alone, to force morality upon mankind. Men do not have the authority to force morality upon other men unless it is consensual. (men meaning men and women)
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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doGon
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lol, TB this is getting insane, although I suppose youve found a new way to kill a topic....
I dont understand why you cant understand where you are going wrong....I understand that quote of yours has nothing to do with the 10 commandments. I didnt take your quote out of context to make it look like it was referring to the 10 commandments....I quoted you, and then responded to it...my response to your quote had NOTHING to do with the 10 commandments, so how you think i took your quote out of context, and into a context of the 10 commandments, when my response to the quote had nothing to do with the 10 commandments, i do not understand....
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TB125
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DoGon, I don't think so. I'm a former professional writer and editor and a fairly intelligent reader of English text.
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Bob
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doGon
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No no no...I quoted you with...
quote:
They reflect a lot of doubts, but not a lot of serious study and investation of the "evidence" for faith that you so quickly dismiss.
and then I responded to that with what was below it...this...
quote:
Faith is belief despite there being zero evidence for the belief....to me thats it, end of discussion. I dont want faith....
The part that was above where I quoted you, this part....
quote:
TB125, you can rationalize it all you want, but the 10 commandments are forced morality. They are rules given by God on how to act. Notice the root word of commandments... 'command'.
had nothing to do with it. I wrote that then move on by starting with your quote, then responded to it with the "Faith is belief despite......"
you just misinterpreted the post....
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TB125
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DoGod,
Here is your statement: quote:
TB125, you can rationalize it all you want, but the 10 commandments are forced morality. They are rules given by God on how to act. Notice the root word of commandments... 'command'.
quote:
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They reflect a lot of doubts, but not a lot of serious study and investation of the "evidence" for faith that you so quickly dismiss.
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Your quotation of me follows your statement regarding the 10 commandments, doesn't it? My statement wasn't in regard to the general topic of faith, it was in regard to your statements.
Do you expect us to respect your "reasonable" and "rational" mind set when you make the kind of statements that you do and continue to connect statements that aren't initially connected? I can't do that, but I'm not sure how the other readers of this forum will response to your continued nonsense.
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Bob
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doGon
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I didnt mean to refer to 'they' as the ten commandments. where are you getting that? If you'll notice, after my quote of what you said, my response had nothing to do with the 10 commandments, but with the topic of the quote...faith.
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TB125
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DoGon, if you are going to quote me, do so accurately and completely. The word "they" in my statement that you quoted above doesn't refer to the "ten commandments". It refers to your "statements", as anyone can see who reviews my message. Such obvious twisting of statements doesn't do much to strengthen your rational case with me, and probably with some other viewers as well.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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doGon
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TB125, you can rationalize it all you want, but the 10 commandments are forced morality. They are rules given by God on how to act. Notice the root word of commandments... 'command'.
quote:
They reflect a lot of doubts, but not a lot of serious study and investation of the "evidence" for faith that you so quickly dismiss.
Faith is belief despite there being zero evidence for the belief....to me thats it, end of discussion. I dont want faith....
quote:
I would like to see some sign that you are seriously seeking to learn something new about the spirit world, which you have apparently dismissed as being "irrational". Let us see your serious study and questions.
I am of course open to evidence for the 'spirit world'. Until then, however, i don't believe in it. However, I am interested in your guys' beliefs, and why you believe them.
quote:
Please cite example(s) of absolutist Christian theocracies (governments) currently operating in the world.
current? can't think of any. Although the last time there was such a government it was called the Dark Ages....ironic, huh?
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EL3LN3TN
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quote:
Originally posted by doGon:
ummm, isn't Christianity forced morality as well? (Ten commandments)
Please cite example(s) of absolutist Christian theocracies (governments) currently operating in the world.
I can't think of any right offhand, but am open to learn.
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EL3LN3TN
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We might want to nail-down a bit of a definition of what exactly is meant by "morality".
Gov't legislated laws basically promote & ensure civil behavior, and the effective functioning of civil societies, regardless of theological issues, or religious teachings - it's just NOT a good deal ![[Mad]](mad.gif) to have anarchy, destruction of private property, economic chaos etc etc.... so civilized societies require laws.
Personally - from my own viewpoint on the marriage issue - the institution of marriage serves an objective, practical purpose of providing new additions to the societal population (by means of the procreative act, certainly!) that is absolutely not possible from 2 members of the same sex, - so it can be dealt with objectively. (IMHO)
I've always wondered a bit about the term "sin tax", which seems to be promoting a religious idea, but the term itself is technically incorrect.
I'd say w/ the system we have here in the U.S. anyways, that yes, the impact of government does affect areas of morality, but indirectly.
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TB125
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doGod,
You ask such questions as this: quote:
isn't Christianity forced morality as well? (Ten commandments)
and make reference to "Ten commandments" that were dictated by God, in whom you do not believe.
If you understood Christianity, you would know that it doesn't try to force morality on anyone. Not even God does that. He allows you (or other atheists) to be as "foolish" as you (and they) want to be (see Romans 1:18-21 and 1 Corinthians 3:12-14).
The Ten Commandments were not written by Moses to be imposed by him and his followers upon the whole world. They were dictated to Moses by God (see Exodus 20:1) and were to be used by God's people, the children of Israel, in their life and worship together as God's special representatives, priests, in a pagan world of non-believing rebels.
DoGon, many of your statements are not "rational" at all. They reflect a lot of doubts, but not a lot of serious study and investation of the "evidence" for faith that you so quickly dismiss.
I, and I suppose that most of the other Christians on this forum, will be glad to continue to engage you in some dialogue regarding "faith" and your questions, but I would like to see some sign that you are seriously seeking to learn something new about the spirit world, which you have apparently dismissed as being "irrational". Let us see your serious study and questions.
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Bob
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BigHead
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yes, I think so...
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Hi, I'm Big head
Posts: 15 | From: Asia | Registered: Oct 2006
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doGon
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ummm, isn't Christianity forced morality as well? (Ten commandments)
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BrianGrass1234
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I do believe government is forced morality. No matter if it is the right or the left, they want to use government to force morality upon everyone. My question to you is do you think this is true? And if so do you think it is in line with the Bible?
I ask this because I think this is the key question a christian should ask themselves when considering the political alignments. It seems that christians want to vote there individual morality in to law. Whether it is on the left with equality or helping the poor, or on the right with trying to define marriage or for protection for people, it could be seen as using government to force morals on others.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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