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Author
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Topic: Plan B and American Moral Indifference
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becauseHElives
Advanced Member
Member # 87
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posted
quote:
Let's not get confused about these matters: the basic issue has to do with one's attitude toward life and their own responsibile or irresponsible (moral or immoral) behavior. Morality is impossible to legislate, but responsible behavior can be.
This is a true statement, but the problem is when the moral influence of Yahweh’s Law is lost, there is no standard for moral behavior in any nation, community, city, state, home or individual lives
The Apostate Church in America at lest has lost its moral influence because it no longer teaches moral absolutes. ….
I’m not saying Yahweh doesn’t have a remnant in America because I know He does, but their message is not popular because it puts moral restraint on the action of those than will be saved.
If there is ever to be a moral change in the climate of America, there must first be a revival of the obedience to the Commandment’s of Yahweh for the true convert who accept the Life of Yeshua for salvation.
I’m not talking about work for salvation…
I’m talking about Salvation that works!
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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TB125
Advanced Member
Member # 2450
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posted
Brian Grass 1234 has some hesitation in regard to trying to legislate against abortions, even the "day after" pill because of this concern quote:
is a population forcing a person to carry, and be responsible for another human
I don't know of any "population" or segment of any population that is "forcing" or attempting to "force" any women, single or married, to "carry" or get pregnant with "another human".
What some of us are trying to do with legislation against abortions is to make women who do get pregnant to assume responsibility for the human life that is their wombs.
I think that most women, even girls, these days, know most of the basic techniques to avoid getting pregnant if they don't want a human fetus in their wombs.
Except in cases of rape, sexual intercourse is consensual, so the participants should be able to take the basic steps to keep the woman from becoming pregnant. Abortion, by any means, should not be necessary to rid a woman of a human fetus that has become "unwanted".
One of the greatest ways to avoid an "unwanted" pregnancy is to avoid having sexual intercourse outside of marriage where the responsible conditions for caring for any human that is conceived through the activity should be in place.
This whole issue of abortions and pills is such a major social and moral problem in our society because too many men and women don't want to be responsibile for their actions. They want quick and frequent pleasures without too many restraints or prohibitions, and they don't want to give much thought to any consequences for their spontaneous sexual urges.
Let's not get confused about these matters: the basic issue has to do with one's attitude toward life and their own responsibile or irresponsible (moral or immoral) behavior. Morality is impossible to legislate, but responsible behavior can be.
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Bob
Posts: 449 | From: Rockford Illinois | Registered: Nov 2003
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BrianGrass1234
Advanced Member
Member # 5845
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posted
I'm torn on the abortion issue. I believe it is murder. But I'm also torn on legislating it as so because I feel it may be a lost cause. Many people believe that an embryo doesn't have the same rights as a child that has been born does. So how can you convince that person that killing the embryo is a crime. Although, there was a time when black people were seen as not having the rights that others had and that was a cause that it would have been wrong to loose. Maybe the abortion issue is the same place. But then again, the black person could survive on there own without forcing a person who is unwilling to sustain them. And that is were the issue rests most with me, is a population forcing a person to carry, and be responsible for another human.
Posts: 203 | From: Weed, CA | Registered: Jun 2006
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freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
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posted
yahsway - I appreciate your honesty... and I believe you share the view of most individual people in the Christian Political Lobby. Which is why I think its sad that they publically deceive by acting as if the health of the woman taking the pill is their main issue.
I do not think lying, directly or implied, is a good way to fight for a morally based cause... which is why I call them on it when they do it.
I saw them do a similar thing in the "Intellegent Design" debate. They would say "This has nothing to do with Creationism!" But we, as did the entire secular world, know it had everything to do with Creationism. The deceit simply made their position weaker.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
I did answer you honestly. Yahweh God says "Be fruitful and multiply". How honest is that?
Those "Pro Life quotes" Were my own, Thank You!
My "already decided decision is simply this-
Promescuity is wrong
Aborition is wrong
The birth control pill is wrong
The morning after pill is wrong
The Pharmacutical companies are wrong
The Right is wrong
The Left is wrong
And there is only ONE Moral argument here and that would have to be taken up with Yahweh God Himself because I am sure He is Not Wrong.
You are very right! I already have a moral stance against abortion. I also have a moral stance against birth-control pills in general. And the "health risks",and emotional risks of all of them only bolster my attitude and thoughts about such things.
But your right. Lets get to the "root" of the whole of it. What say you? What is the root freddy? or better yet, what is the "lie"?
Politics aside, cause you and me both know that Laura Bush, Dick Chaneys wife and Barbra Bush are all "Pro-Choice", so lets not bring politics into it.
It goes much deeper than that. Do you know what the "lie" is? Shalom and Shavua Tov!
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
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posted
The pill has medical risks. I never said it didn´t. There are plently of medications available over the counter that can kill you if taken incorrectly. While there is a medical debate over this medication, my point is the hypocracy of the Christian Politcal Lobby. (not to mention that at the FDA the medical safety of the pill was decided something like 3 years ago, the debate has continued on pro-life grounds)
Why is this such a big deal to evangelical Christians? Its about when life begins, abortion, promescuity, etc... it has nothing to do with the health of the mother... After reading your first post on this issue (the one where you quote emotional pro-life lyrics), I can assume that is where your motives lie on this issue. The fact that there is medical risk is mearly a way to try to support your already decided position.
I would think that if people here answered honestly why they are against Plan B, it is because of morality concerns. Acting like health is the main issue is a lie, and I (and I would guess the majority of Americans) can see right through the lie. And it weakens the moral arguement.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
freddy05,
I am a nurse and can tell you from a medical stand point, there are risks to women who take the "after morning pill".
This pill is a highly more concentrated form of the regular birth control pills that are prescribed to women to control birth.
Now notice if you will that if you are a woman on birth control pills you Must have a perscription to obtain them. Why? Because you must see a Doctor, give the Doctor your medical history to see if birth control pills would be right for you since there are risks in taking them.
Thats right! There are risks if you take birth control pills. One major risks is "blood clots", some breast and ovarian cancer concerns, heart attacks, and in my case, The doctors would not perscribe birth control pills to me because my liver was damaged from Hepatits B years ago.
Now with that information out of the way, lets take a look at this "morning after pill" that the pharmacutical companies want to put on the market as non-prescription and can be taken by any girl of any age. This pill is the same as a perscribed birth control pills BUT it is in a much HIGHER dose. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to ask the question "Hey, you mean I have to have a perscription from an MD for birth control pills but I dont have to have one for the "morning after pill?" You mean there are risks to my health if I take DR. perscribed birth control pill, but there are NO risks if I take a highly more potent "morning after pill"?
Now I ask you, does that really make sense?
Its not about the "polictal parties" here.
You simply need to "Follow the Money". And so, who is making the money from the women who are risking their health from taking this more easy and obtainable pill? The Pharmacutical Companies!
And heres another fallacy. That pill IS NOT 100% effective folks. It has a 70-90% effective rate.This is one reason the abortion rates have not fallen but have actually increased in other countries where this pill is in use.
Theres your "big lie" in all of this. Women would in my opinion be much better off health wise if they would just go to their Dr. and let the Dr. based on his knowledge of their existing health to perscribe a birth control pills to take.
There are women who have died or had some complications to their health from taking the regular every day much lower dose of birth control pills on the market. So do you really think that when the pharmacutical companies say that this "morning after pill" is safe they are telling you the truth?
And if you think real hard about it, since this pill is only 70-90% effective, there are many women/girls who will still get pregnant after taking this pill, the pharmacutical company will still get its money from those who bought and took that pill, and if those girls have the mind/heart to do so, will go and have an abortion and then that abortion clinic/Doctor is going to make their money for performing it.
So there you have it. There are many people on the right and left (Rep and Demo) who are against abortion. But now abortion has gone to another level. There are always risks involved to the mother. Whether she has an outright abortion or takes the "morning after pill". But I would much rather be under a DR's care if I chose to use a contraceptive than just going to the drug store and buying one that is 10x more potent than the every day estrogen pills taken for birth control.
Just my 2 cents, I still believe (and many say I am just "nuts")that one of the first commands given by Yahweh God is to be "fruitful and multiply". I think as a Nation, we have a LOT of repenting to do. What say you? Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by TEXASGRANDMA:
freddy
I am curious why you hang around this site, when everything Christian seems to offend you. You have no clue what individuals are thinking who are against this pill, so I don’t see how you can give a fair opinion of them at all
Did you read the original posting? Have you followed the "Christian Political Lobby"? They are saying IN PUBLIC their problem with Plan B is that there is a danger to the health of the woman taking the pill.
Do YOU really believe that is the motive? Do you see the hypocracy? Are YOU in favor of lying if it means you will achieve your objective?
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
freddy
I am curious why you hang around this site, when everything Christian seems to offend you. You have no clue what individuals are thinking who are against this pill, so I don’t see how you can give a fair opinion of them at all
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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EL3LN3TN
unregistered
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by freddy05:
I am so sick of Political Christians (those who claim to be representing Christ by politically lobbying) being deceptive (or I would say outright lying) about their motives.
Why act like you are all concerned about dangers of the pill to the health of the mother? You know that has nothing to do with your opposition to the pill. It has to do with the belief that life begins at conception and a human life is being killed. Any thinking American can see right through the arguement, and the entire Christian lobby is seen as deceptive and hypocritical.
If you want to appeal to the moral side of the American populice, then speak truth about your motives.
I think it needs to be suggested that a possible motive of legislating reproductive choice out of the hands of individual (female) citizens...and into the hands of government also exists. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
There are some tantalizing possibilities for social engineering & societal re-shapement w/ this (individual choice eradicated - now "GOVERNMENT"-administered choice!).
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
"I thought that I heard crying
coming from my door
Was it Rachel weeping for her sons that were "no more?"
Could it have been the babies, crying for themselves?
Never understanding that they died for someone else.
The voices heard, the weeping and the wailing,
History speaks of it on every page
Of innocent and helpless little babies
Offerings to the "spirit of the age"
Now every ear has heard it
This voice that speaks from hell-
"Sacrifice your children and for you it will be well!"
The devil serpents lying, this voice that speaks with rage
Behold! it is revealed to be "the spirit of the age"
(excerpts from a song written by Micheal Card)
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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freddy05
Advanced Member
Member # 5854
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posted
quote:
Originally posted by lifeandliberty:
Pro-life organizations have spent many hours and piles of money educating President Bush as to the dangers of the Plan B human pesticide to no avail.
I am so sick of Political Christians (those who claim to be representing Christ by politically lobbying) being deceptive (or I would say outright lying) about their motives.
All the hours and money "pro-life organizers" have spent warning of the "dangers" of the Plan B are absolutely ridiculous. Why act like you are all concerned about dangers of the pill to the health of the mother? You know that has nothing to do with your opposition to the pill. It has to do with the belief that life begins at conception and a human life is being killed. Any thinking American can see right through the arguement, and the entire Christian lobby is seen as deceptive and hypocritical.
If you want to appeal to the moral side of the American populice, then speak truth about your motives.
Posts: 102 | Registered: Jun 2006
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lifeandliberty
Advanced Member
Member # 4329
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posted
There has been talk for years about the “morning after pill” or the “abortion pill”. Those who have been following the promotion of Levonorgestrel, or “Plan B”, as it is called, aren’t very surprised that it has been approved for over-the-counter sales. After all, the FDA has given its stamp of approval to dozens of other methods of killing the preborn. The Pill (in many of its various forms), the IUD, Norplant, Depo-Provera, etc. all have the potential of killing the newly conceived human.
Human life has been devalued to such a degree in this throw-away society that a newly conceived person is often viewed as a mere inconvenience. Rather than the joy and excitement once felt by the news of a baby on the way, the first thoughts are all too often those of despair at our life being interrupted by an unwelcome intruder. Lucky for us, we now have the option to rid ourselves of the consequences of our sexual behavior with a pop of a pill and a gulp of water.
Pro-life organizations have spent many hours and piles of money educating President Bush as to the dangers of the Plan B human pesticide to no avail. The administration has shown its true colors. Career politicians as a rule tend to travel the easy road of moral compromise and all the while boldly proclaim themselves to be heroes of virtue. When all is said and done, fancy speeches touting the uncompromising stance of the elected official will sway the masses more than the true history of broken promises and innocent lives lost. The innocent all too often must pay for the sins of the morally bankrupt.
To make abortifacient drugs such as levonorgestrel, more palatable to the public, the pharmaceutical industry has worked to redefine “conception”. Up until the late 1980’s medical journals, dictionaries and scholarly papers all defined conception as the union of the sperm and the egg. At this point, a new distinct human has been created. Its DNA is different than that of his parents and all that is needed for the person to live to a ripe old age is time and nutrition. This was always common knowledge and the dissemination of such information doesn’t help the sale of the various deadly brews on the market. To counteract the obvious, the definition of the word, “conception” was changed to mean the point in time when the already created human implanted in the uterine wall. Thus conception was equated with implantation. Magically, with the change in definition, Plan B was no longer an “abortion pill” but rather just an innocuous little pack of pills that would prevent a pregnancy.
Definitions can be juggled and uninformed people can be fooled but the FDA knew exactly what Plan B was as did the current administration that used its influence to push through its approval.
It’s easy for the populace to be duped when standards of righteousness and truth have been blurred to such a degree that the only argument on the table of debate is over which methods of killing the preborn are the best and least offensive. The loud and clear cry that no innocent child should be killed is seldom heard. We have found ourselves treading in the deep end of the pool of depravity.
So how did we get to this point? We aren’t immoral because of abortion. Abortion on demand is just evidence of our complete lack of morality. It reveals our lack of compassion for the most innocent and vulnerable among us. We are immoral because we have forsaken truth and embraced a lie. That lie is that we can live as we so desire without any consideration of God’s Word and still think that all will be OK.
When one points to the Scriptural standard and guidelines for morality clearly revealed in the Bible, his case is all too often discounted without serious consideration. This reveals the moral vacuum we have created in this nation by framing our values upon a foundation of convenience and immediate gratification rather than eternal truth. Children are to be received as a blessing according to the Scriptures and sexual relations are to be confined to the marriage bed. When God’s Truth is heeded, a multitude of our societal problems solve themselves. Contrariwise, when relativistic and immoral guidelines are set by which to govern our behavior, we end up with Plan B.
Life and Liberty Ministries
Posts: 29 | From: Virginia | Registered: Jan 2005
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