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Topic: Why swords?
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KnowHim
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posted
Amen Thunderz7 well said.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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quote:
T7 do you really believe it is OK for the child of Yahweh, the individual washed in the Blood of the Lamb, who is ask by the Messiah himself to forgive all wrong done against him , to take the life of another human for any reason?
Yes i do.
I do not believe YHWH would have me passive if my home was broken into and my wife was being raped.
I don't believe if I drove by a school and saw armed people and knew the intent was death of students, that YHWH would want me to less than my all to stop it.
Ishmael wants us dead, and will kill us at any opportunity.
With such a passive outlook why get up in the morning why not just lay in bed 24-7.
Whats the point of anything, Ecclesiastes?
What is the use of firemen, policemen, rescue squad members?
Just let what ever happens, happen.
It predestined, it dispensated.
Yes, if I know who I am in Christ Jesus, every name that is named must bow to HIS Name, if I speak in faith and truth.
I should be able to bind any intruder with the WORD,
I should be able to stop any gunman with the WORD.
I should be the same all the time.
My warfare should not be carnal, not against flesh and blood.
But I come out of the grocery store and see a child struggling with an adult,
trying not to be forced into a car.
(And this moment I am not fully who I should be in Christ Jesus)
I start after the attacker and shout "in the NAME of Jesus, let the child go",
(It's worked before, but not today.)
I'm closer, I say "In the NAME of Yeshua, stop",
(he should stop, but not today)
At this point I will use anything to stop this person, gun, knife, grocery cart, fists, car.
He will have to stop me before he takes the child,
and I will sing praises to YHWH during the battle.
Should a child suffer and die because I failed to be spiritually 100% in a given moment?
I believe I would find a forgiving Savior if I took the life of this attacker.
I'm not so sure HIS forgiveness would be as easily found if I just let the child be taken.
I would not use physical force first, it would be third - spirit, soul then body.
I am not 100% all the time, I know that is what I want, and the WORD says HE will complete the work HE started in me.
This will only continue to go in circles, you have every bit as much scripture as I ![[thumbsup2]](graemlins/thumbsup2.gif) ,
I'm out of it.
be blessed in Yeshua,
pray for me, and I will for you
T7
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becauseHElives
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Hello T7,
quote:
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
every man’s hand against him;
does not mean the child of Yahweh is against Ishmael to kill him, it means we stand against the evil that Ishmael stands for. (hate , jealousy, greed, envy…..)
T7 do you really believe it is OK for the child of Yahweh, the individual washed in the Blood of the Lamb, who is ask by the Messiah himself to forgive all wrong done against him , to take the life of another human for any reason?
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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TB125
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I'll try to make my points as clearly as I can.
1. The instruction of Jesus to his disciples to "buy" a "sword" if no one had any (Luke 22:37) was to make sure that he would be "numbered with the transgressors" in fulfillment of the prophecy of Isaiah 53:12. it had nothing to do with any defense of his life or the lives of his disciples or our lives.
2. Eden asked me quote:
Are you saying that "He was numbered among the transgressors" could only have occurred in a sword-type rebellion when used against the Roman forces?
Neither Isaiah nor Jesus identify these "transgressors", but there were plenty around. They could be understood to include rebels like Mattathias Maccabeus and his sons, the two criminals who were crucified with Jesus, Peter himself (who according to Origen was also crucified, Paul who was executed by Romans, the thousands of Christians who were executed by Nero, and thousands more who were killed in Jerusalem and at Masada by the Roman forces under Vespasian and Titus from 64-70 A.D during the Jewish war. And apparently many men from Galilee wore swords, not just rebels.
3. thunderz7 says quote:
Romans weren't involved with the arrest of Jesus.
But according to Halley in his Bible Handbook of 1955, p. 490 quote:
The Roman garrison, consisting of a cohort of soldiers, about 500 or 600, let by the chief captain, with emissaries from the high priest, evidently thinking they were on a dangerous mission, were guided by Judas...to the place of Jesus'retreat
So Roman soldiers were present during his arrest and trial in addition to their being engaged in his flogging and crucifixion.
4. This instruction of Jesus to his disciples regarding "swords" is related to his determined need to fulfill the prophetic writings and not to any efforts that his disciples (including us) are to use in conflict with any enemies or persecutors. As I said before, he said, "This must be fulfilled in me" (Luke 22:37).
When the disciples indicated that they had "two swords", he replied, "That is enough" (Luke 22:38), meaning that is enough swords to get him listed among the "transgressors".
5. thunderz7 indicates quote:
Peter struck a servant of the high Priest, not a Roman.
I never indicated that Peter struck a Roman. I don't think that I'm confused about what was going on here.
Jesus certainly wasn't confused about what was going to happen when he went to the garden of Gethsemane and what did happen when he was arrested. He raised the question, "Do you think I cannot call on twelve legions of angels? But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?" (Luke 26:53-54).
I hope this clarifies my points in response to Eden's initial question.
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Bob
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Thunderz7
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becauseHelives says quote:
Hello T7,
I am glad to know I can hack up my enemies’
I wish we could have gotten this understanding to all those poor martyr’s.
They could have all just gotten swords and killed their enemies, instead of those brutal deaths they suffered for no reason.
T7 I really do understand where you are coming from, I was once there. I apologize for the sarcasm but I felt it was necessary.
Maybe you do not believe in different dispensation but I do.
Yahweh is the same yesterday, today and forever but He has dealt with people in different ways at different time thought the ages.
We are now in the Church Age, my term for the period of time we now live.
The Holy Spirit has declared that the weapons of our warfare (The Church) (The Saved by Grace, Jew/Gentile called out ones) are not carnal. Our weapons are prayer, fasting and the word of Yahweh. We are to walk in Love with all mankind, even our enemies’.
If anyone desires to take our life, we are to give it to them and pray to Yahweh to forgive them for they know not what they do.
This is the teaching of Yeshua to those that would follow His example.
I certainly never said the martyr's deaths and sufferings were "for no reason".
That didn't come from my mouth, or my keyboard;
and I really don't think I have implied that in any of my post.
But rest assured some "Christians" did resist and kill their enemies.
I too believe YHWH has and does deal with people in different ways, at different times and places.
You and I are in the same time, but in different places, and certainly different peolple.
I am very careful and watchful of the real meaning of the word "dispensation".
I am not a Dispensationalist.
Former board member (epouraniois) was big on dispensationalism and brough some of the greatest heresy ever to this message board.
Genesis16:10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
Dispensation has not changed the fact that Ishmael's hand is against every man;
is your hand against Ishmael?
T7
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Thunderz7
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Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
When Yeshua/Jesus was made flesh, a little lower than the angels, He came among the transgressors.
The men crucufied of each side of Yeshua were transgressors, but I am too.
I wasn't alive to transgress against the Romans or the Sanhedrin, but like all except Yeshua/Jesus, have transgressed against YHWH.
For 33 years HE was among the transgressors, from Gethsemane to the cross, as He took on our transgressions, He was numbered anomg us.
It would be interesting to know the type of swords the disciples had,
and if the Romans allowed "common men" to carry that kind of weapon.
That could have made them breakers of Roman law.
Would anyone know to what degree the Sanhedrin would have to get permission from the Romans to make an arrest?
T7
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Eden
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Hi, Thunderz7. So you disagree with TB125 that "He was numbered with the transgressors" referred to these Gethsemane events, right?
And am I mistaken, or is it the traditional Christian view about that verse "he was numbered among the transgressors" that Jesus was "crucified among the two malefactors" on the cross, or not?
Be blessed.
Eden
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Thunderz7
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Judas delt with members of the Sanhedrin when betraying Jesus.
Romans weren't involved with the arrest of Jesus.
Mark 14:43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
Peter struck a servant of the high Priest, not a Roman.
Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
T7
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Eden
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Hi, TB125. Let me see if I understand you right. Are you saying that "He was numbered among the transgressors" could only have occurred in a sword-type rebellion when used against the Roman forces?
And that the 2 thieves who were crucified with Jesus was NOT referred to by "and He was numbered among the transgressors"?
And are you saying that Jesus told them to buy two swords ("that is enough") was because He FOREKNEW that the disciples, was it Peter?, would draw his sword and cut off the ear of a servant of the chief priest (wasn't it?).
And you are saying that made Peter at least "a transgressor leader" so that the scripture could be fulfilled that "He was numbered among the transgressors"?
Please let me know. Thanks.
Be blessed.
Eden
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TB125
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Eden,
You say, quote:
I have never heard that scripture used like that. I have always thought that the phrase, “and He was numbered among the transgressors” referred to Jesus being “crucified with two malefactor thieves”?
Note that this comment of Jesus (as reported in Luke 22:37) is made in reference to the disciples' swords and not in reference to his crucifixion between two thieves.
The use of swords against Roman soldiers was not a new experience for Israelites. During the previous century (166-165 BC) a patriot, Mattathias Macccabeus, and his sons, particularly Judas, had led a violent revolution against Rome in Jerusalem.
Note also that such a revolution was part of the popular image and expectation of Israel's "Messiah". Many of his disciples and followers were anticipating his leadership to free them from the domination of Rome as David had freed the Israelites from the Philistines with the power of the swords of his soldiers.
Note also that this issue of loyalty to Rome, to "Caesar", and Jesus' role as a "king" (in the image of David)was cited by Jesus' enemies in their arguments before Pilate to get him to crucify Jesus (see John 19:12-16).
So Jesus was crucified with this sign above his head: "JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS" (John 19:19). This is how Rome dealt with rebellious transgressors against their authority.
Please give Jesus enough credit to know what he was talking about, to what he was referring. He was referring to swords that could be used in violent revolution against Rome authority, not to the actions of "criminals" between two of which he would be crucified.
Sometimes in our efforts to explain Scriptures we create more problems than we solve by attaching meanings to statements that were not intended by their authors or can be logically justified by the context in which they were made.
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Bob
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Eden
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Hi, TB125. You said:
The reason why Jesus asked his disciples to buy a sword or more than one was not that they should be prepared to defend him or themselves, but that the prophecy that indicated that "he would be numbered among the transgressors" (Isa 53:12)would be fulfilled.
Eden here:
I have never heard that scripture used like that. I have always thought that the phrase, “and He was numbered among the transgressors” referred to Jesus being “crucified with two malefactor thieves”?
But you say that is not so?
Be blessed.
Eden
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TB125
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The reason why Jesus asked his disciples to buy a sword or more than one was not that they should be prepared to defend him or themselves, but that the prophecy that indicated that "he would be numbered among the transgressors" (Isa 53:12)would be fulfilled. As he says, "this must be fulfilled in me" (Luke 22:37. When they showed him that they had two swords among them, he said "That is enough" (Luke 22:38). By that statement he meant that was enough swords to get him "numbered among the transgressors", thus making him the fulfillment of another prophecy that had been "written".
He did not want them to defend him or themselves with any sword. He told his disciple to "put your sword back in its place" (Mat. 26:52), indicating that if he wanted to defend himself with such violence he had "twelve legions of angels" at his disposal (Matt 26:53).
The reason for this instruction to the disciples and the incident of violent resistence in the garden was so that "the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way" (Matt 26:54). Matthew repeats this summary of the incident with Jesus' words to the crowd, including the soldiers and the crowd that had been sent out to arrest him by the "chief priests and the elders" (Matt 26:47)that this "had all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled" (Matt 26:56).
We shouldn't create or cite so many different interpretations of incidents like this in Scripture that are not clearly justified by the context. In doing so, we create a lot of questionable controversy among believers and confuse many non-believing viewers. I hope that this explanation from the context regarding this incident is helpful.
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Bob
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becauseHElives
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Hello T7,
I am glad to know I can hack up my enemies’
I wish we could have gotten this understanding to all those poor martyr’s.
They could have all just gotten swords and killed their enemies, instead of those brutal deaths they suffered for no reason.
T7 I really do understand where you are coming from, I was once there. I apologize for the sarcasm but I felt it was necessary.
Maybe you do not believe in different dispensation but I do.
Yahweh is the same yesterday, today and forever but He has dealt with people in different ways at different time thought the ages.
We are now in the Church Age, my term for the period of time we now live.
The Holy Spirit has declared that the weapons of our warfare (The Church) (The Saved by Grace, Jew/Gentile called out ones) are not carnal. Our weapons are prayer, fasting and the word of Yahweh. We are to walk in Love with all mankind, even our enemies’.
If anyone desires to take our life, we are to give it to them and pray to Yahweh to forgive them for they know not what they do.
This is the teaching of Yeshua to those that would follow His example.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I dont either think it is an always situation in that I do believe that God allows nations to war. I believe that GOD still brings judgment on nations by allowing one nation to overtake another in war.
I do think that in this specific scripture however, Jesus said clearly IF my kingdom were NOW from here my servants would fight.... meaning take up arms to protect him from the ones that came for him.
I did not see this particular thread as related to the other thread. I saw this one as asking specifically about this situation or event in scripture.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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Mt.16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
At times, at least once, Peter had received revelation from Father God,
but in regard to the events at Gethsemene,
Jesus had told the disciples what must happen,
Jesus had told them to pray.
Peter's reaction didn't show that he had any revelation of any of this.
I have considered every post in this thread, and in the one on Christians and Defense,
and can not say that I see anyone in great error.
David's post in the other thread touched both sides.
I really think this topic calls for a prayful topical study from the whole Bible;
I want the revelation of truth, I don't want to miss the point as the disciples did at Gethsemane.
If it is "always" a matter of taking the full armor of God, and having done all to stand, standing, taking whatever comes;
I want to stand.
If it's "always" a matter of taking the sword or sling, and putting tham to use;
I want to take up arms.
I don't think it is an "always" situation though.
I truly feel it is a matter of hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit, to know the difference in whether to be passive or aggressive;
I want to know that difference and do what the Holy Spirit instructs.
Having said, I don't think it's "always",
then I have to find a balance in the fact that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
I pray we all get the revelation HE wants each of us to have.
We won't all be facing the same things in this life,
YHWH will speak if we have an ear to hear.
Our test will likely be different and call for different actions.
May we all be Holy Spirit led.
T7
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
if HE wanted to stop the attack, the answer would have been before the strike.
51- only after the strike does Jesus stop the conflict;
then HE heals the ear, that could not have been healed without Peter's strike.
And he likely would have answered differently as well:
Luke 22:51 And Jesus answered and said, Suffer ye thus far. And he touched his ear, and healed him.
But does that change that prior to this, he warned Peter, and also it does not change that the statement is made they could have fought and were not to fight
Luke 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,46 And said unto them, Why sleep ye? rise and pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
Mark 14:37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Matthew 40:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Jesus himself was praying the same words 3 times he prayed O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus knew that the disciples would face the same temptation of wanting their will and they needed to submit to the will of the Father.
When Jesus says to Peter Suffer thou this far, he is saying you have had to walk this walk this far on your own Peter, but know this:
Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Peter's temptation was the same as it was the Day Jesus had said to him... get behind me Satan.
Here is another interesting thing:
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Put up YOUR sword Peter into HIS place. That word is truly "his" as opposed to "it". What do you make of that Thunder? I see it as showing that Peter's sword was the sword of man's will.
Swords of Men?? Swords of Spirit?? Will you Peter live by the sword of men for if you do you will die by it.... or will you live by the will of GOD and live though you die?
I agree that HE (Jesus) did not want to stop it for HE answered Peter, Suffer ye this far. This was a decision Peter had to make on his own. Did he really believe this was CHRIST? Could he put away his own picture of how things should be and accept GOD's will?
What an interesting allegory as well Thunder; maybe I need more coffee, but I see this:
The Jew (peter) with the sword of man strikes the ear (source of hearing) from the servant of the high priest of Israel, and The King of Jews who is Christ, and THE HIGH PRIEST restores the ear, as if it had never been cut off.
Is that an allegory of the restoration of the hearing that will one day return to Israel???? Does this not speak to Isaiah 53???
In that sense I would agree that the ear could not have been healed had it not been cut off, which to me speaks to blindness being given to them all that he could have mercy on all.
Ro 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Do you see that? Is that what you are saying in the first place? Have I missed your point completely?
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Thunderz7
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I have watched this thread and the one in Bible Topics on "Christians and Defense" with interest and prayer;
will likely use these scriptures and this topic in Bible Study Sunday;
I'll be sure to use both sides, with some of the info from many of you, as my views are surely one sided on this, and I will not present something with this much question, without trying to show both sides.
Now to my one side.
I ask myself;
is Jesus, GOD?
My own answer is yes, and I know many disagree with that.
I ask myself;
is the GOD of Genesis 1:1, the same as the WORD of John 1;1-3?
My answer is yes, though I know everyone doesn't agree with that.
I see the question;
would a disciple of the WORD strike another human being with a sword?
I ask myself;
would a prophet of YHWH strike another human being with a sword?
1 Samuel 15:33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the LORD in Gilgal.
Is the GOD of the old covenat different from the GOD of the new covenant?
Someone who doesn't see the WORD as GOD may answer differently, but the way I see it.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Luke 49-51, (from my viewpoint, seeing Jesus, the WORD, as GOD)
49- disciplse ask if they are to strike with their swords
50- Peter strikes, yes Peter is quick to act without thought of consequences,
but the WORD is GOD, if HE wanted to stop the attack, the answer would have been before the strike.
51- only after the strike does Jesus stop the conflict;
then HE heals the ear, that could not have been healed without Peter's strike.
T7
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helpforhomeschoolers
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This was very cool. Dale thanks for confirming that this is also what you see. I had not ever thought about the fact that Jesus told them to take swords. I was really blessed to think on this. It is just one more thing that goes to show the absolute attention to detail that GOD had in fulfilling the HIS word. Our GOD is and AWESOME GOD!
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becauseHElives
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Hey Linda, that is my understanding.
Brian, the sword used against us, that the way I see it, Yahweh call His follower's to love their enemies’ and do good to those that would harm them. Yahweh calls His followers to be like His Son, Yeshua.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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helpforhomeschoolers
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I believe that the swords were for protection against beasts. They were going outside the camp to be safe until the right hour had come...
Also, Jesus was making the point that they could have fought but were not to fight because this was not the Place of HIS kingdom.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Jesus went willingly with them:
They asked if they should smite Judas and them that came with him and were told no...
Lu 22:49 When they which were about him saw what would follow, they said unto him, Lord, shall we smite with the sword?
But Jesus also said...
53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
Now was the time.
Peter smote the servant....This was the very temptation that Jesus had warned them to pray against......
Mark 14:43 ¶ And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
44 And he that betrayed him had given them a token, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he; take him, and lead him away safely.
45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.
46 And they laid their hands on him, and took him.
47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
48 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Are ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and with staves to take me?
49 I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled.
Matthew 26:46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.
47 ¶ And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.
48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.
49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
51 And, behold, one of them which were with Jesus stretched out his hand, and drew his sword, and struck a servant of the high priest’s, and smote off his ear.
52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.
8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
Having the swords would allow them to keep away and wild beasts, but more importantly it would show that no one took the Life of Christ, but that he laid it down.
His people were there with swords. They could have fought, even if they had lost, they could hav fought, but they were not to fight because HIS kingdom was not of this world. His disciples were not called to a Kingdom of this world, but to a heavenly one.
Jesus laid his life down willingly. He did not fight nor did HIS servants fight for his life.
Peter's disobedience was exactly why they were to pray that they not be overcome by temptation to fight as if their were fighting for an earthly kingdom or King.
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BrianGrass1234
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Meaning the sword would be used against us as christians?
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becauseHElives
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Hey Eden, I just can't see the disiple of Yeshua / Jesus using a sword on another human for any reason.
Hey Brian, the context of that passage is not about the child of Yahweh using a sword on others, but the opposition of the lost to the True Gospel.
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household.
Mat 10:37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 10:40¶He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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BrianGrass1234
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what about this?
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
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Eden
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Hi, becauseHElives. Making the Bible the Sword is of course a nice addition to the thread, but I don't see how that explains what Jesus meant when He expressly told the disciples to "go buy some swords."
I don't know for sure, but in the 1st century A.D., people probably carried daggers for protection, not just for protection against people, but also against wild animals.
In the 1st century A.D., there were MANY MORE wild animals still, before they were eaten and their parts used, the hides for shields, their fat for oil and grease, and on and on. In the days before refrigeration was invented, wild animals were shot for food.
So since Jesus had been protecting them all this time, the 11 disciples whom He had with Him in the garden of Gethsemane probably had not had to use their daggers for 3 years!
And suddenly Jesus tells them, "buy some swords"? They must have gone, "huh? Where are You going that we are going to need swords again?
Jesus knew they were going to need physical protection again, against robbers and thieves who abounded in along the roads; witness the "man who fell among thieves" on the road to Jericho.
Be blessed.
Eden
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becauseHElives
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(Have you bought your Jesus sword yet?)
Holy War and the Holy Father: the Bible vs the Quran
Is Jesus/Yeshua peaceful?
The reference is not to use a sword for defense of human enemies, when Peter used the sword in that manner Yeshua rebuked him.
And if this was the means Yeshua intended for defense why did so many allow themselves to be martyred without a fight. All the disciples except John were martyred and they tried to kill him.
22:36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
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Eden
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Hi, Caretaker. You said something like, "Cleophas is not Cephas, as I pointed out in the other thread."
Eden here:
I don't know much about "Cephas", nor really about "Cleophas".
I had said that his name was "Cleopas", for it was "Cleopas" who in Luke 24:18 was on the road to Emmaus, and it was Cleopas who said in Luke 24:21 "But we were hoping that it was he who was going to redeem Israel."
Before I joined the BBS myself, I read some of BA's posts, and found them to be just as you described; I was kinda sorry to see him go too.
Be blessed.
Eden
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Caretaker
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B. Eden:
But neither the 12 nor the 11 disciples (minus Judas) seem to have grasped the death of Jesus; I think the disciples all thought that something had gone terribly wrong, as Cleopas said on the road to Emmaus: "we had thought that He was the one who would redeem Israel".
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1) Cleophas is not Cephas, as I pointed-out in the "Cleophas" thread which you have not responded to.
2)The disciples expected the restoration of the kingdom, and Jesus as Messiah to reign from the Throne of David. They were even asking Him about the literal Kingdom just before His ascension,(Acts 1). This was the dissappointment which they had yet to grasp, the duality of the true Messiah.
Sometimes our old friend BA would have some truth to bring to the table, and many times his questions and interpretations would be accompanied by contextual error, as in mistaking Cleophas for Cephas.
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Eden:
Hi, Caretaker. Am I to understand from what you have written that you agreed with Eden's assessment of what the "two swords" and "it's enough" represented, as compared to what helpfor said?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
3) In this particular case I stand by what I posted. I do not see Help4/Linda posting in this thread.
I see Kindgo/Kathy posting, and I do not necessarily disagree with her answer, as Jesus has just described that the situation is drasticly altered, and they only grasp the superficial and show two swords, and Jesus ends the conversation with,"It is enough".
It is difficult for a leapord to change his spots, and for a poster to change his "signature".
I was sorry that BA had been gone, as he always brought a great deal to the table, though often straying-out into left field in departing from true context and inserting opinions and suppositions, resulting in error.
It is nice to see Eden with the "mantle".
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Eden
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Hi, Caretaker. Am I to understand from what you have written that you agreed with Eden's assessment of what the "two swords" and "it's enough" represented, as compared to what helpfor said?
BTW, that is an interesting phrase that Jesus said, a phrase that is hardly ever preached upon, namely "the things concerning me have an end."
By that Jesus meant to say, "I'm going to be dead soon or at least resurrected and seated at the right hand of the Father" so my "on-earth" protectin will be gone and so "the things concerning me have an end".
But neither the 12 nor the 11 disciples (minus Judas) seem to have grasped the death of Jesus; I think the disciples all thought that something had gone terribly wrong, as Cleopas said on the road to Emmaus: "we had thought that He was the one who would redeem Israel".
So the disciples say, "here are TWO swords, Lord"?
I can almost hear their questioning why they suddenly need swords...
Be blessed, everyone.
Eden
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Caretaker
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God bless you;
Luke 22:
22:35
And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes *, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
22:36
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
22:37
For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
22:38
And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
Contrast:
When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes *, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
sword:
mavcaira from a presumed derivative of (3163)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Machaira 4:524,572
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
makh'-ahee-rah Noun Feminine
Definition
1. a large knife, used for killing animals and cutting up flesh
2. a small sword, as distinguished from a large sword
1. curved sword, for a cutting stroke
2. a straight sword, for thrusting
A purse is a moneybag
A wallet:
1. a wallet
2. a leathern sack, in which travellers and shepherds carried their provisions
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
Luke 22:35
And he said unto them…
To the disciples, as the Persic version reads; not to Peter only, but to them all:
when I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes;
without the necessaries of life, without proper accommodations for a journey, without provisions, or money, to buy any with: so (aneu balantiou) , "without a purse", is, by the Scholiast on Aristophanes F20, interpreted by (aneu arguriou kai dapanhv) , "without money and expense": Christ here refers to his mission of them in (Matthew 10:5,9,10)
lacked ye any thing?
any of the common blessings of life, food to eat, or raiment to wear?
and they said, nothing;
they lacked nothing at all; wherever they came, they had friendly accommodations; they were provided with every thing necessary for them; they had both food and raiment, and good lodgings in every place; the houses and hearts of men were opened by Christ to receive them, though they were sent out by him so empty and destitute.
John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
Luke 22:36
Then said he unto them…
That is, Jesus said unto them, as the Persic version expresses it:
but now he that hath a purse let him take it, and likewise his
scrip;
signifying hereby, that from this time forward, immediately after his departure from them, after his death, resurrection, and ascension, when they should be sent into all the world to preach the Gospel, it would be otherwise with them than before; that they should be reduced to great penury and distress, should neither have food, nor money to buy any with; and that they should suffer hunger, and thirst, and nakedness, and have no certain dwellingplace, as was their case; see (1 Corinthians 4:11) and that they would not be received, and entertained in the manner they had been; and therefore it would be advisable, if they had any provisions, to take them with them in their scrips; or if they had any money, to carry it with them in their purses; for glad would they be to provide themselves with necessaries at any rate:
and he that hath no sword;
the word "sword" is not in this clause, but in the next; it is only in the original, "he that hath not"; which, at first sight; looks as if the sense was, he that hath not a purse, or a scrip, to sell, and buy a sword with, let him sell his garment, and buy one: but, as De Dieu observes, the phrase, "he that hath not", is the same with "he that has nothing"; who is a poor man, and has no money to buy a sword with, let him part with his garment, which rich men, who had money, had no need to do; though the Syriac, Persic, and Arabic versions put the word sword, in both clauses;
he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy a sword;
that is, if he could get one no other way. Christ here uses the common dialect of the nation, as Dr. Lightfoot observes. So on the feast of dedication of the temple,
``if a man had not any thing to eat, but what he had by alms, he must beg, or (wtwok rkwm) , "sell his garment", and take oil, and lamps, and light them F21.''
These words of Christ are not to be understood literally, that he would have his disciples furnish themselves with swords at any rate, since he would never have said, as he afterwards does, that two were sufficient; which could not be enough for eleven men; or have forbid Peter the use of one, as he did in a very little time after this: but his meaning is, that wherever they came, and a door was opened for the preaching of the Gospel, they would have many adversaries, and these powerful, and would be used with great violence, and be followed with rage and persecution; so that they might seem to stand in need of swords to defend them: the phrase is expressive of the danger they would be exposed to, and of their need of protection; and therefore it was wrong in them to be disputing and quarrelling about superiority, or looking out for, and expecting temporal pomp and grandeur, when this would be their forlorn, destitute, and afflicted condition; and they would quickly see the affliction and distress begin in himself. In "seven" ancient copies of Beza's, it is read in the future tense, "he shall take, he shall sell, he shall buy".
JFB Commentary:
35-38. But now--that you are going forth not as before on a temporary mission, provided for without purse or scrip, but into scenes of continued and severe trial, your methods must be different; for purse and scrip will now be needed for support, and the usual means of defense.
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Jesus is telling them that henceforth it will be different then before. Before He had provided, and doors had been opened, the disciples received. They went out without a traveler's necessities.
From this time forward they must provide for the journey.
The disciples missed the deeper meaning of Jesus' words,"for the things concerning me have an end", when they replied, "here are two swords". They thinking He referred to present defense, while His answer showed He meant something else,"it is enough",for two swords among the Elevan were not numerically enough, but sufficent as an example of preparation.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
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Eden
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Hi, Kindgo, if that is the case, then why did Jesus say above, "he who has no sword, let him sell a garment, and buy one {a sword}."
When the disciples said they already had two swords, Jesus said it was enough.
Then, Kindgo, you say something like that Jesus's answer "enough" meant "enough of that kind of talk."
Eden here"
How does Jesus TELLING them, "enough of that kind of talk" mesh with Jesus telling them to sell a garment and BUY A SWORD?
And Kindgo, you said something like "how could two swords be enough against such a crowd anyway"?
Eden here:
When the crowd was there, Jesus was still with them, so they did not need any protection yet; but when Jesus was led away, the crowd WENT AWAY WITH Jesus, and after that, the remaining disciples in Gethesemane, who had scattered at first but then presumably regathered, had at least 2 swords among them to protect themselves, as was the ancient way.
That makes more sense to me than that "enough" meant "enough of that kind of talk."
Be blessed.
Eden
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Kindgo
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It is enough, means enough of this kind of talk.
(Jesus’ firm way of ending the conversation), not two swords will be enough. How could two swords ever be enough against all those who came to arrest Jesus?
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God bless,
Kindgo
Inside the will of God there is no failure. Outside the will of God there is no success.
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Eden
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Luke 22 (NJKV)
35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?” So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’[a] For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”
My question is, This happened on the eve of Passover, just before Jesus and the disciples went into the garden of Gethsemane where Jesus prayed three times.
Why did Jesus said the disciples needed two swords now, but when Jesus had sent out the disciples by twos (in verse 35 above), they had apparently not taken swords, not taken knapsacks.
Did the disciples need swords after this night because Jesus had been protecting the disciples, but since Jesus would be taken from them this evening, Jesus knew that the disciples had to revert to their old way of defending themselves, namely with swords now that Jesus was going in captivity?
Be blessed, everyone.
Eden
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