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Author
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Topic: Membership = Baptism?
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epouraniois
unregistered
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posted
The history of Baptism concerns the history of Israel. The history of Israel concerns shadows and type which point to the true.
In the NT we have
John the Baptist. This baptism falls under two headings:
- It was a baptism unto repentance, in view of the near approach of the kingdom of heaven (Matt. 3:1,2).
- It was the work of John as the forerunner prophesied of by Isaiah in the fortieth chapter of his prophecy.
- It was concerned only with Israel or with those who joined themselves to Israel, as the words ‘Comfort ye’ of Isaiah 40 were concerned.
-It was a baptism in water, that spoke of a future baptism with Holy Ghost and with fire.
-It was specifically designed to make manifest to Israel the One Who was sent to be their Messiah (John 1:30-34)
The baptism with the Holy Ghost promised by John was fulfilled at Pentecost (Acts 1:5).
During the Acts
water baptism AND the baptism of the Spirit went together (Acts 2:38; 10:47).
During the first ministry of the apostle Paul, baptism by water was practised (1 Cor. 1:16), but baptism never held the place in Paul’s commission (1 Cor. 1:17) that it did in that of Peter (Acts 2:38). Peter could never have said: ‘Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel’ as Paul did.
Baptism during the early ministry of Paul:
-united the believer by burial with the death of Christ (Rom. 6:3,4).
- united Jew and Gentile making them ‘all one in Christ and Abraham’s seed’ (Gal. 3:27-29).
-baptizing these believers into one body, with particular reference to the exercise of spiritual gifts (1 Cor. 12:13).
After Acts 28,
and the revelation of the Mystery we enter into a calling where shadows give place to the reality of the fulness of Christ (Col. 2:17).
Baptism in the epistles of the Mystery is either that which unites the believer with the death and Resurrection of Christ (Col. 2:12).
In the church, the body with Christ as it's head and the heavenly calling, the church of the one body revelated after Acts there is only one baptism, for there are no more shadows and types being taught here, only the true, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all. Oneness with Christ in the heavenly places becomes the reality.
I belive you are correct chaoschristian, in that it 'has become a social norm' to go through the types and shadows. I do understand a need for the picture types for young Christians perhaps, but why would anyone say you have to do it again? Surely, if there is any belief at all being taken from the Acts period, then even that faith being upheld is in question if the pastor or teacher or preacher or priest believes it to have been inadequate. It really doesn't make that much Biblical since to me.
Ask them to show you in Scripture where these requirements come from at the very least, me though, would also follow that up with questions about any other extra Biblical doctrine you can expect to uncover there. Personally, I would have a difficult time asking them in a less curt way, but with some thought it could be done tackfully, but subconsciously, any questions would be transparent, that they are being asked about their traditions of men, calling attention to the extra Biblical doctrine which is generally called Paganism to put it mildly.
Because God's thoughts are so much higher than our thoughts, that we are bound by His interpretation and that anything that is against or contrary to it...well, you know.
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
For many Baptists, baptism is a visible symbol of Christian unity within the church. Since Christian experience is important to Baptists, baptism becomes a kind of uniform experience that all believers can share. Because baptism is conducted publicly, it is first a witness to the church, with which all other baptized believers can identify. Also, since baptism is a picture of the gospel, it presents all baptized believers with the reality of being "in Christ" (Gal. 3:26–27). This provides a deep sense of unity within a congregation as well as among members of the larger body of Christ.
In many ways, baptism is a seal on important promises. In being baptized a believer is assured that sins are forgiven (though not in the act of baptism itself), and that we are participants in God’s kingdom. Further, by identifying with the death and burial of Christ, baptism assures us that we shall likewise see the resurrection and eternal life (Titus 3:5–7). Finally, because Jesus commanded that baptism should be conducted to the end of the age, baptism becomes a seal of the promise that Christ will return to claim his people (Matt. 28:20).
If one is desirous of a leadership position in the Baptist Church then one should also be aligned with their particular faith and practice.
Those denominations which come out of the RCC, and their emphasis upon infant baptism are contrary to Baptist Doctrine. You want to become a member in full standing in the Baptist Church, then you should be willing to uphold one of their primary Doctrines, that of Believer's Baptism.
Can one be unified in a denomination and hold beliefs that are contrary?
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
I think that most Churches have it in their charter that members must be baptized. But, because of your fear of water you should talk to your Pastor about this. Please don't condemn yourself for your fears. Many of us have fears. I am willing to talk to you about this in privite if you will send a private message.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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chaoschristian
Advanced Member
Member # 5273
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posted
Texasgrandma:
Thank you for your kind concern. There is not physical disability, but there is a deep seated patholigical fear of water.
However, that is not what is driving this issue. I'm trying to figure out if this re-baptism thing is the right thing to do before God, and on the church's part, the right to ask of someone else before God.
If it were just a matter of my complete unwillingness to go near water, then the pastor and I have already worked out a solution if it were come to pass.
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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TEXASGRANDMA
Advanced Member
Member # 847
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posted
Drew,
That is true. Most Baptist Churches require submission. I was raised Assembly of God but because we also go with submission, I was not required to be Baptized again when I joined the Baptist Church.
betty
ChaosChristian,
we posted at the same time. If it is a question of physical needs then your Church should work around this in a way that is dignified for you and makes you feel comfortable. There are cases where a person cannot be baptized because they are bedridden etc.
In Washington we had a young lady who is wheelchair bound, who wanted to be baptized. Her husband carried her into the water and helped the Pastor. But you should talk to your Pastor about your own suitation.
God bless you,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
Posts: 4985 | From: Washington State | Registered: Jan 2003
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chaoschristian
Advanced Member
Member # 5273
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posted
Caretaker wrote:
quote:
chaoschristian is coming from the Methodist to the Baptist church and it is to be expected that he would be baptised by immersion as a Believer.
And why can't the Baptist recognize the baptism of a United Methodist if, as in my case, the baptism was done at the age of informed consent and not as an infant?
And even if I were to agree to do this, immersion is not an option. Period.
Which leads me back to my question, since Christians can't universally agree on the nature of baptism, and since baptism is not a necessary condition for salvation, why do it at all?
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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Caretaker
Advanced Member
Member # 36
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posted
Throughout the history of Christianity the re-baptisers have required those coming from the RCC faith and practice to receive the ordinance of Baptism as a Believer.
chaoschristian is coming from the Methodist to the Baptist church and it is to be expected that he would be baptised by immersion as a Believer.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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Chaplain Bob
Advanced Member
Member # 5019
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posted
quote:
My question, then, is what is the point of being re-baptized? I do not see a point, other than to fulfill what has become a social norm for this group of people.
What are your views?
Find yourself another church. It is not necessary to be re-baptised. To do so only cheapens the meaning of this sacred act.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
The UMC which was founded by John Wesley came from the Anglican Church of England, which is basicly RCC in many of their practices.
Those churches which come from an RCC tradition practice infant baptism, sprinkling/pouring rather than immersion, and multiple sacraments through which grace is bestowed:
Main Entry: sac·ra·ment
Pronunciation: 'sa-kr&-m&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English sacrement, sacrament, from Old French & Late Latin; Old French, from Late Latin sacramentum, from Latin, oath of allegiance, obligation, from sacrare to consecrate
1 a : a Christian rite (as baptism or the Eucharist) that is believed to have been ordained by Christ and that is held to be a means of divine grace or to be a sign or symbol of a spiritual reality b : a religious rite or observance comparable to a Christian sacrament
Those who come from a re-baptizing tradition, are separated throughout history from the RCC, and declare two ordinances of the Church, and rather than imparting grace through their practice, are a memorial and a public declaration of faith. They are far more likely to require one coming from another church to be rebaptised especially if the one is coming from an RCC influenced:
We believe the ordinances of the Church are two in number and constitute a scriptural means of public testimony for the church in this age. One is that of believer’s baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; and the other is the Lord’s Supper. Matthew 26:27-30; I Corinthians 11:23-30; Matthew 28:19; Acts 16:30-33.
In your opening statement and the words used I figured that you were probably coming from a church such as Lutheran/Methodist/Episcopalian that practiced the sacraments and was rooted in the RCC tradition/practices, and that you were seeking membership in a church in the rebaptising tradition, such as Baptist.
The emphasis is on the "Believers" Baptism, and that until one reaches an age of understanding the Gospel, one is under the dispensation of grace. The re-baptisers believe that the Baptism is a public testament of faith.
The RCC traditionally baptise infants as they believe that salvation and grace is imparted through the baptismal rite itself. Infant baptism is practiced in the RCC, Anglican/Episcopal, UMC, Lutheran, etc.
The faith and practices of rebaptism are contemporaneous with the RCC and date back through such groups as the Paulicans, Bogamels, Anabaptists, from the early churches in Armenia and eastern Europe. The rebaptisers were severly persecuted by the RCC, and the Greek Orthodox, and the roots of division are still apparent to this day, in the lines of separation.
I just found your terms and concerns to be somewhat indicative of one whose journey of faith has led them from a Liturgical/RCC root, into a separated rebaptising tradition.
God bless your walk of faith and search for truth.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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chaoschristian
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Member # 5273
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posted
Caretaker:
I don't know how close you consider the United Methodist Church to the Roman Catholic Church, but there's your answer.
I wasn't sprinkled, and I wasn't submerged. I do remember copious amounts of water being dumped on my head. I am terrified of the water and won't go near a pool, lake or river, let alone actually get into one.
I am not familiar with 'ordinance fellowship' so you'll have to explain that one. We did have a Partnership Covenant at the UMC church we just moved from that is quite similar to the membership covenant at this new church.
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
From your thread on communion it would appear that you are from a liturgical background, one of the churches closer to the Roman Catholic practices. By any chance were you sprinkled instead of submerged in you baptism?
Your reference to the trinity of sacraments, in your other thread and your new pastor's insistance on rebaptism, leaves one with the impression you are going from a sacraments to ordinance fellowship.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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chaoschristian
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Member # 5273
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posted
It's an interesting scenerio.
The pastor not only wants us to become members, but to take up leadership over a ministry area as well. It terms of our gifts and interests, the ministry is a good, sound fit. The congregation itself is a good fit for us as well. So far.
The dilemna is that without membership, there is no leadership and without baptism there is no membership. And it's interesting in that the leadership position now hangs out there as more of a temptation than an incentive. That is to say, that my desire for the leadership wants me to set aside my conviction that there is simply no need to be re-baptised.
I could be re-baptised, get membership and lead a ministry and it would not technically effect my faith.
However, I would consider myself a hypocrite since I would be submitting to something that I am convinced is wrong, and would therefore make a really bad exemplar of leadership.
Well, back to the pastor to talk about this more.
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
Posts: 109 | From: Snack Food Capital of the World (Hanover, PA for those of you who don't know) | Registered: Nov 2005
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becauseHElives
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Member # 87
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posted
If you have been baptised as a sign of your faith and you are confident that your heart is right with Yahweh, there is no need to be re-baptised.
If you desire leadership in their assembly, you will have to submitt
but be very careful with groups that ask for re-baptism to confirm your salvation
knowing those that you labor among is and sould be a 2 way street
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Strive to enter in at the strait gate:for many, I say unto you will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. ( Luke 13:24 )
Posts: 4578 | From: Southeast Texas | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Member # 15
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posted
I would speak personally with the pastor. If you were baptised in the name of Christ as a believer then you should not have to be baptised again. I would agree with WParr, if they require this for membership into this local congregation, that would be for me a red flag, as we are baptised into the BODY of Christ and not into a local congregation. When Apollos went from one place to another was he baptised again? certainly not! Any local congregation should accept a person's believer's baptism I dont care if you were baptised in a bathtub in your front lawn by your next door neighbor.
I also agree with Drew, if you had been baptised into the Roman church or only as an infant say into the Lutheran Church, then I would encourage you to be baptised as a consenting believer, but at 12 if you were baptised of your own desire into the Body of Christ then you have been baptised.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Caretaker
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Member # 36
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posted
It is often the standard practice within the Baptist Churches to re-baptise unless the new member has come from a congregation which shares their statement of faith and ordinances. The overriding concern is that the Baptism not be administered by heretics. I myself was rebaptised Baptist after having once been baptised Oneness Pentecostal, at my own request.
Those who come from the Catholic/Protestant traditions/practices should especially consider re-Baptism as a Believer and in support for the faith and practices of their new denomination.
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A Servant of Christ,
Drew
1 Tim. 3:
16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh..
Posts: 3978 | From: Council Grove, KS USA | Registered: Jun 2002
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dondi
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Member # 4966
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posted
Our church does do baptisms for membership but only if a unsaved person becomes saved and wants to join, if a saved unbaptised person wants to join or if a person of a different denomination wants to join. Now when I say denomination I mean like a catholic wanting to join our baptist church. I joined on proffesion of faith from a Missionary Baptist background. My wife was baptised, since she had never been baptised. We also allow membership by letter.
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Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and sup with him, and him with Me. Rev. 3:20
Posts: 33 | From: Ceres,Ca | Registered: Aug 2005
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HisGrace
unregistered
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posted
You already have made a professon of faith through baptism; it shouldn't be a necessity again.
That is just like telling you that you have to once more become born again. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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chaoschristian
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Member # 5273
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posted
We are now attending a church that is quite different in size, culture and approach than our last one. We feel very welcomed in this small congregation. After several conversations with the pastor, he asked that we consider becoming members.
However, in order to do so we must submit to being baptized again after making a profession of faith. It's a requirement.
I use the word 'submit' because I view it as more of a social acceptance thing than a faith thing. All the others members have done this profess/baptise ritual and expect all new members to do the same. And since it is a small church, there is no way to get lost in the crowd so as to speak.
However, although I was baptized in a different denomination, I was not baptized as an infact, but at the age of twelve, when I first professed my faith.
My question, then, is what is the point of being re-baptized? I do not see a point, other than to fulfill what has become a social norm for this group of people.
What are your views?
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Why are you reading my bio when you should be paying attention to the post?
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