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Topic: Paradise/Heaven - the Same?
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epouraniois
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posted
I should have added this, as it is quite revealing to meditate, prayerfully, upon the depth of the blessings which are the very fulness of Christ in every blessing that He has to give which is spiritual in heavenly places far above all:
- CLV -
Eph 1:22 .23
and subjects all under His *feet, and _ogives Him, as Head over all, to the ecclesia whichany is His *body, the complement of the One completing~ the all in all.
- Concordant Greek Text Sublinear -ultraliteral English idiomatic Greek-English -
22, 23
and all he-subjects [UNDER-SETS] under the feet of-him and him gives head over all to-the ecclesia [out called] whichany is the body of-him the complement of-the all in all being-completed [beinG-FILLED] = plEroO/plEromenou - transliteration -
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epouraniois
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Lk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I believe that the comma is in the wrong place, remember that there were no punctuation and no spaces between any words, they were all added later. More acurate and fitting into the rest of the Word of God would be;
' 'Verily I say unto thee Today, thou shalt be with me in paradise' '()''.
I am probably repeating someone, but have one thing to say irregardless, Adam was siezed up into the garden of God, and it is called paradise, and in 2Cor 12:3 and 4 the apostle speaks of where paradise is, saying 'And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter'.
In Genesis 1.1 the word heaven is plural, as it has two dagashs' upon it, and in v 8 'God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day'.
So there is a third heaven, but we read in Psalms His throne, literally His covering, having the idea of a wrinkle in the fabric of the space time continuem wherein God can stoop down from the heavens above all heavens of heavens far above all heavens to make His invisible selfhood known;
Dt 10:14
Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
2Chr 6:18
But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!
Heb 2:8
Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Grabbing some of the excellent verses:
Eph 1:22
And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,
Eph 1:23
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Eph 2:1
. And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:4
. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6
And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:11
. Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14
. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
Eph 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Eph 2:19
Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph 2:20
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
Eph 2:21
In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph 2:22
In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Eph 3:1
. For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
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Mr Ron
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The word 'heaven' can refer to any of three places-
1) The sky, or earths atmosphere
2) Outer space (the planets and stars)
3) The eternal dwelling place of God and the saints. Before Christ died on the cross, Satan could enter here and visit.(see Job 1-6)
At the end times mentioned in Revelations Chapter 21, there will be a new heaven and new earth that is more beautiful than words can describe, and this will be the dwelling place of all the saints.
Some interpret this to be a place that will open at the end times.I personally think it can exist now or in the future, as God's time is different than man's earthly time. God is not limited.
We human being have a very limited concept of time and space and heaven, as we only have a limited 3 pound defective brain to work with. The Lord God does not have these limitations!
Posts: 102 | From: South Carolina | Registered: Mar 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
{Re: I Thess.5:15-18}
But we can argue with INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture. What you have stated is just one interpretation that not all Believers buy into.
In this interpretation Jesus comes back twice (but the first second coming doesn't count because supposedly His feet do not touch the ground). For this interpretation Scripture has been twisted to fit a preconceived "double-dip" theory.
It obvious from this scripture that there is only one trip involved -
I Thess.5:15-18 "I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves."
On this 'one trip' the above is saying that the dead will be raised up first to meet Jesus in the clouds.
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God."
Further explanation of this same trip.
"First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. ]Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever."
On this same trip we are reminded again that the dead will rise first, and together with those who are still alive, will be caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus and go to heaven.
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Chaplain Bob
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][/QUOTE]We can't argue with the scriptures.
I Thess.5:15-18 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God.
First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words.
It clearly says that both those who have died and those who are alive will be caught up to meet him the clouds. After seven years they will come back with Christ for his Second Coming. Thus this scripture is true when it says 'Remain with him forever', which will be in heaven and also when he comes back to earth. [/QB][/QUOTE]
But we can argue with INTERPRETATIONS of Scripture. What you have stated is just one interpretation that not all Believers buy into.
In this interpretation Jesus comes back twice (but the first second coming doesn't count because supposedly His feet do not touch the ground). For this interpretation Scripture has been twisted to fit a preconceived "double-dip" theory.
There are going to be a lot of surprised Believers when the find they have been "left behind".
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
We don't come back with Jesus unless we have died. The dead in Christ come with Him. What you are proposing is part of the "double-dip" Rapture theory in which Jesus comes part way down to "get His church" and then comes all the way down at some future date. That's giving meaning to verses of Scripture that's just not there and that's not exactly "sound" interpretation.
We can't argue with the scriptures.
I Thess.5:15-18 I can tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not rise to meet him ahead of those who are in their graves. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the call of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God.
First, all the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and remain with him forever. So comfort and encourage each other with these words.
It clearly says that both those who have died and those who are alive will be caught up to meet him the clouds. After seven years they will come back with Christ for his Second Coming. Thus this scripture is true when it says 'Remain with him forever', which will be in heaven and also when he comes back to earth.
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Chaplain Bob
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I agree that Jesus doesn't stay in heaven forever, and I also agree that our eternal home isn't in heaven. However, I believe the 'theory' that we go to heaven to be prepared as the Bride to help usher Jesus back to earth for the Second Coming, at which time he comes back to earth to reign for many years.
There are many sound 'interpretations' of the scriptures to back up this belief. [/QB][/QUOTE]
We don't come back with Jesus unless we have died. The dead in Christ come with Him. What you are proposing is part of the "double-dip" Rapture theory in which Jesus comes part way down to "get His church" and then comes all the way down at some future date. That's giving meaning to verses of Scripture that's just not there and that's not exactly "sound" interpretation.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
The Bible said Jesus was in Heaven but does not say, or even imply, that Jesus does not ever leave Heaven to be about preparing a place for us.
When Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions..." He was not talking about Heaven. The house Jesus referred to was what we call the "universe". Our eternal home is on the New Earth NOT in Heaven. Heaven is GOD'S domain ("headquarters" so to speak where our rewards and the Book of Life is kept).
The return of Jesus you describe is the theory held by some who have bought into the "Rapture" doctrine and is open to interpretation. Not all of us believe in the commonly taught "Rapture" doctrine.
I'm not arguing with Scripture just challenging someone's interpretation of it.
I agree that Jesus doesn't stay in heaven forever, and I also agree that our eternal home isn't in heaven. However, I believe the 'theory' that we go to heaven to be prepared as the Bride to help usher Jesus back to earth for the Second Coming, at which time he comes back to earth to reign for many years.
There are many sound 'interpretations' of the scriptures to back up this belief.
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Chaplain Bob
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[/qb][/QUOTE]How can we argue with the scriptures. It does say that Jesus in heaven. Saying that he is sitting at God's right hand is a respectful symbolic way of showing his rightful place of high honour. That doesn't mean he isn't moving around.
John 14:1-4 "Don't be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Father's home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, And you know where I am going and how to get there."
This shows he is with God in his home, which is heaven.
After 7 years of tribulaton Jesus will come back to earth with his bride to reign for 1000 years. The new heaven and the new earth will be created after the final judgment. [/QB][/QUOTE]
The Bible said Jesus was in Heaven but does not say, or even imply, that Jesus does not ever leave Heaven to be about preparing a place for us.
When Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions..." He was not talking about Heaven. The house Jesus referred to was what we call the "universe". Our eternal home is on the New Earth NOT in Heaven. Heaven is GOD'S domain ("headquarters" so to speak where our rewards and the Book of Life is kept).
The return of Jesus you describe is the theory held by some who have bought into the "Rapture" doctrine and is open to interpretation. Not all of us believe in the commonly taught "Rapture" doctrine.
I'm not arguing with Scripture just challenging someone's interpretation of it.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
Posts: 209 | From: Checotah, Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
So that shows your "careful discernment" is of the flesh and USELESS, worse DEADLY
Well that certainly is up for debate. Anyway this isn't a 'exposing false teaching.' forum.
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wparr
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But I've PROVED B.H. a FALSE prophet with his own words and voice
So that shows your "careful discernment" is of the flesh and USELESS, worse
DEADLY
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by wparr:
HisGrace said
quote:
How can we argue with the scriptures.
But you argue with the scriptures about false prophets. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Is there a difference? ![[wave3]](graemlins/18.gif)
No - I have my own list of false prophets, careful discernment of which I believe 'lines up with the scriptures' as many posters like to say.
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wparr
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HisGrace said
quote:
How can we argue with the scriptures.
But you argue with the scriptures about false prophets.
Is there a difference?
Posts: 1203 | From: Eagle Nest, NM | Registered: Jan 2003
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Chaplain Bob:
Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Where does it say that Jesus never leaves that spot????? There is a misconception by many that because that is what the Bible says that Jesus is still sitting there today waiting for us to show up. Elsewhere Jesus says "I go to prepare a place for you.....". How can He prepare a place for us if He is just sitting at the right hand of God???? The "Father's House" Jesus speaks of is the Universe NOT Heaven. There is no Scriptural support for the idea that Jesus just sitting there in Heaven or that we will be in Heaven. Heaven is God's "headquarters" so to speak where the records and rewards are kept.
Rev. 21 makes it clear that our eternal home is the New Earth God will create and that His home will be with us. The new Heaven God will create is what we call "space" NOT God's domain. There will be no sun but light will be provided by the New Jerusalem which will be suspended in space.
Paradise is not Heaven but the holding place for the righteous dead awaiting the judgement. Paradise and Heaven ARE two different places.
How can we argue with the scriptures. It does say that Jesus in heaven. Saying that he is sitting at God's right hand is a respectful symbolic way of showing his rightful place of high honour. That doesn't mean he isn't moving around.
John 14:1-4 "Don't be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me. There are many rooms in my Father's home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly. When everything is ready, I will come and get you, And you know where I am going and how to get there."
This shows he is with God in his home, which is heaven.
After 7 years of tribulaton Jesus will come back to earth with his bride to reign for 1000 years. The new heaven and the new earth will be created after the final judgment.
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Chaplain Bob
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
With all due respect Thomas, the scriptures say that Jesus is in heaven.
Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Where does it say that Jesus never leaves that spot????? There is a misconception by many that because that is what the Bible says that Jesus is still sitting there today waiting for us to show up. Elsewhere Jesus says "I go to prepare a place for you.....". How can He prepare a place for us if He is just sitting at the right hand of God???? The "Father's House" Jesus speaks of is the Universe NOT Heaven. There is no Scriptural support for the idea that Jesus just sitting there in Heaven or that we will be in Heaven. Heaven is God's "headquarters" so to speak where the records and rewards are kept.
Rev. 21 makes it clear that our eternal home is the New Earth God will create and that His home will be with us. The new Heaven God will create is what we call "space" NOT God's domain. There will be no sun but light will be provided by the New Jerusalem which will be suspended in space.
Paradise is not Heaven but the holding place for the righteous dead awaiting the judgement. Paradise and Heaven ARE two different places.
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In His Service,
Bob Allen
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yahsway
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In Revelation it states that the new heaven and new earth are established after the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth.
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Thomas_TDKMM
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I agree he is in Heaven. There are at least 3 heavens, maybe more. I think Paradise is a Heaven. I'm simply saying that the New Heaven, New Earth do not get created until after the 1000 year reign. Since that final state isn't created yet, it is a different version of Heaven. Since it is not the final Heaven and earth, it is a temporary one. Paradise is referred to as Heaven and also as temporary. I only say that could be the place Jesus is right now, it is possible that there is another temporary place, I just think Paradise is it.
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Thomas
www.thomasdoubtknowmore.org
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HisGrace
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With all due respect Thomas, the scriptures say that Jesus is in heaven.
Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
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Thomas_TDKMM
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Perhaps Holding place isn't the best way to describe it. I think of it as the OT saints, saved by Grace waited in Paradise for Jesus to Come. Now that He has come, He is with them and all those who have died since who believed. They are not in the Final Heaven, but they are with Christ. Waiting, learning, in a pretty great place that I think is referred to as paradise.
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Thomas
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
quote:
Originally posted by Thomas_TDKMM:
The new heaven/Earth is described in Revelation
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
This is described after the 1000 year reign and immediately following the Great White Throne Judgement. I think that makes it clear that it can not yet exist. It will be created later. The verse also says that the first heaven and earth had passed away, and no longer any sea.
I agree with this explanation of the new heaven and the new earth.
I also believe that during the Rapture the dead in Christ and the Church will be carried directly to heaven. There they will be groomed to come back to earth with Jesus as the bride for the Second Coming, at which time they will bring heaven, as it presently exists, with them to create a new heaven on earth.
I am still little confused about 'holding place' theory.
I don't think there is a holding place any longer. When we die as a Christian our spirit goes to be with the Lord. Then upon His return to earth our bodies are resurrected.
Aaron
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomas_TDKMM:
The new heaven/Earth is described in Revelation
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
This is described after the 1000 year reign and immediately following the Great White Throne Judgement. I think that makes it clear that it can not yet exist. It will be created later. The verse also says that the first heaven and earth had passed away, and no longer any sea.
I agree with this explanation of the new heaven and the new earth.
I also believe that during the Rapture the dead in Christ and the Church will be carried directly to heaven. There they will be groomed to come back to earth with Jesus as the bride for the Second Coming, at which time they will bring heaven, as it presently exists, with them to create a new heaven on earth.
I am still little confused about 'holding place' theory.
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Thomas_TDKMM
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I try to stick with the Bible when it comes to interpreting Heaven. Here's what I've found.
Peter said
2Pe 3:13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
2Pe 3:14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
The new heaven/Earth is described in Revelation
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
This is described after the 1000 year reign and immediately following the Great White Throne Judgement. I think that makes it clear that it can not yet exist. It will be created later. The verse also says that the first heaven and earth had passed away, and no longer any sea. I think this is talking about the state of things today. We have the earth. There is Paradise for those in Christ and there is the Sea(or Hell) that holds the unrighteous dead. This was described in Luke.
Lk 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
Lk 16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
We also have Jesus' words to the Thief on the Cross.
Lk 23:43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”
Jesus could not have been talking about the New Heaven, because that won't be created until after the Great White Throne judgement. I think the most logical answer is that Paradise is not only a holding place for the OT believers, but the New Testament believers as well. It is separate from Hell, not a compartment of part of it. I see Abraham's Bosom and Paradise as the same place.
Wycliffe's Dictionary of Theology says this -"Hades and Abrahams's Bosom are distinct places, not two compartments of the same place. If Abraham's bosom was intended to have reference to one of the divisions of Hades, then the other division would have been mentioned with equal precision. Hades is mentioned in connection with Dives only; the other place is "afar off." Hades is associated with being in torment; the latter appears to be the consequence of being in Hades. If Hades were a neutral concept here, then the contrast with teh rich mans's former sumptuous state would not have been expressed."
In the definition of paradise, it refers to the Greek word "Paradeisos". It says this "The NT employs paradeisos three times, to denote the place of blessedness promised to the thief (Luke 23:43), the third heaven (II Cor. 12:4), and the location of the promised tree of life (Rev. 2:7)"
The same word is also used to describe Eden.
I think these definitions are scripturally sound and support the idea that the saved are allowed back into Eden to await the second coming. It is a Heaven-like state, but not the end.
That explains 2 heavens, with the Heavens above being a third. Paul went to Paradise or the Third Heaven, (a heaven, not the New Heaven). I think at the Rapture, we will meet Christ in the Heavens those in Paradise will "Rise first" and be with Him before us.
After the 2nd coming, the 1000 year kingdom may be another Heaven, or it may be back to paradise for the 1000 years. Either way, this kingdom is also not the New Heaven/New Earth final state as told in Revelation.
I think that all of the bible should make sense, this explanation seems to make the most sense. Create Eden as an example of the Heaven to come. Cast out sinful man, as man has faith in Christ, He is allowed back in at death. After the Final Judgement, Create the New Heaven and Earth, better than before, all sin gone.
I'm no expert, but this is what I believe.
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Thomas
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HisGrace
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I thought Paradise and Heaven were two different places, but maybe not. Apparently the Jewish people believed there were seven heavens in the OT. However, it is the belief among modern-day Christians that there are three heavens, because of the following scripture in the NT.- the atmosphere just above us, the galaxies, and then thirdly, heaven itself.
2 Corinthians 12:1-5 This boasting is all so foolish, but let me go on. Let me tell about the visions and revelations I received from the Lord. I was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don't know; only God knows. But I do know that I was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told. That experience is something worth boasting about, but I am not going to do it. I am going to boast only about my weaknesses.
As has been discussed before some of us believe that Moses and the other saints were held in some sort of 'holding place' until Jesus rescued them.
Because of the scripture "To-day you will be with me in paradise" I have thought this holding place would be called Paradise, but maybe not.
I believe that wherever Moses and the rest were, would be abolished when they went to heaven with Jesus, so that there would no room for a belief that there is a purgatory.
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