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Topic: Can You Tell Me for Sure Where Jesus Was During 'Those Three Days'?
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Aaron
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Yep. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It seems like at one time Paradise was governed by the spirits Hell and Death. Now that Jesus has authority over Death and Hell Paradise is governed by Him.
Aaron
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HisGrace
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Aaron, I guess you answered my question on another thread - thanks ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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HisGrace
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Do you think that when the righteous dead were released, their 'holding pen' passed away?
In 2 Cor.12:1-5 Paul refers to the third heaven and paradise as being one and the same. I always thought the third heaven was 'heaven'.
This boasting is all so foolish, but let me go on. Let me tell about the visions and revelations I received from the Lord. I was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago. Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don't know; only God knows. But I do know that I was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told. That experience is something worth boasting about, but I am not going to do it. I am going to boast only about my weaknesses.
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Aaron
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quote:
Could the 'holding pen' have been Paradise?
Yes, I think it is. Abraham's bosom = Paradise.
quote:
Are you saying that Jesus went to the gates of hell and took the keys and then went to minister to the righteous dead in the 'holding pen'?
No, no physical gates. The spirit, Hell, has authority to hold those who are ruled by the spirit, Death. Their "keys" are symbols of their authority. The "gates of Hell" are symbols of Hell's power to hold the saints. Jesus defeated the powers of Hell and Death. The evidence of which was His return from the grave.
In Paradise Jesus presented Himself to the righteous dead. They were righteous because of their faith yet were still able to be held because of their sin. Their belief in Jesus broke the yoke of death on their lives (Death only reigns where there is sin) and they were subsequently released from their prison.
"Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
Does this help?
Bless you,
Aaron
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HisGrace
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Great post Aaron - now I have to try to sort all of this out in my mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
My dear HisGrace and brother Thomas (welcome to the board
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; ]and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
This is an odd passage. Once-dead people walking the streets.
This was an isolated event and was not the final resurrection of the dead. This was a sign of what Jesus accomplished during His short stay in Hell.
I agree. We don't know who these people were and apparently there weren't that many.
quote:
From Aaron -The other place is Abraham's bosom..the righteous dead are kept here. It is here that Jesus presented Himself to the righteous dead...and where the righteous dead beheld their Savior who was, in their life-time, far off. What a time that must have been! To see the reality of your hope standing before you!
Now, let's return to the issue of Death and Hell. In the OT, when a man, righteous or unrighteous, died he went to Hell. There he presented himself to the Spirits of Death and Hell.
Death asks: "Do you have sin?"
The answer was always "Yes."
The it is made known to Hell whether or not the man was righteous. Off he went into his appropriate "holding pen"; his reality was death and his captor, hell.
Could the 'holding pen' have been Paradise?
quote:
From Aaron Enter Jesus.
Jesus dies.
He descends into Hell and presents Himself to the spirits of Death and Hell.
Death asks, "Do you have sin?"
Jesus, "No."
Death: ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Now, Death has no authority over Jesus. And Hell only has authority over the dead.
Hell: ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
No man has triumphed over Death and Hell save for one: Jesus. He showed Himself to be greater than both.
There stands Jesus, in the presence of Death and Hell, not as their captor...but as their master!
I can almost imagine Death and Hell looking at each other wondering, "What do we do now?"
And then Jesus, reading their minds, says "I'll tell you what you will do: Hand over those keys!"
Rev. 1:17-18 "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
Keys are symbolic of authority. Jesus, a man without sin, died *physically* for just a short time. But Death could not rule Him and Hell could not keep Him. He preached to the righteous dead and they believed. And all who believe in Him are included "in Him" and are treated in the same way that God treats His only begotten Son. Jesus was raised to life: a new life free from the influence of Death. And, as a sign of what Jesus accomplished in Hell, some of the righteous dead were also raised with Him.
Are you saying that Jesus went to the gates of hell and took the keys and then went to minister to the righteous dead in the 'holding pen'?
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Aaron
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My dear HisGrace and brother Thomas (welcome to the board )
Maybe these scriptures and some of my thoughts will shine some more light on this subject.
[quote]Matt. 27:45-53 "Now from the sixth hour until the ninth hour there was darkness over all the land. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"*
47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!" 48 Immediately one of them ran and took a sponge, filled it with sour wine and put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink.
49 The rest said, "Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to save Him."
50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
This is an odd passage. Once-dead people walking the streets.
This was an isolated event and was not the final resurrection of the dead. This was a sign of what Jesus accomplished during His short stay in Hell.
I believe Death and Hell are spirits. Their dominions are named after them: the state of not living = death; the place where the not living are kept = hell.
Death was given authority to reign in the lives of sinful men. "The wages of sin are death" and Death was charged with ensuring this reality. Hell was given the authority to imprison men in their dead state. There are two places for imprisonment. One place is called Gehenna: where the worm does not die and the fire continuously burns...this place was named after the refuse heap that is constantly kept aflame.
The other place is Abraham's bosom..the righteous dead are kept here. It is here that Jesus presented Himself to the righteous dead...and where the righteous dead beheld their Savior who was, in their life-time, far off. What a time that must have been! To see the reality of your hope standing before you!
Now, let's return to the issue of Death and Hell. In the OT, when a man, righteous or unrighteous, died he went to Hell. There he presented himself to the Spirits of Death and Hell.
Death asks: "Do you have sin?"
The answer was always "Yes."
The it is made known to Hell whether or not the man was righteous. Off he went into his appropriate "holding pen"; his reality was death and his captor, hell.
Enter Jesus.
Jesus dies.
He descends into Hell and presents Himself to the spirits of Death and Hell.
Death asks, "Do you have sin?"
Jesus, "No."
Death:
Now, Death has no authority over Jesus. And Hell only has authority over the dead.
Hell:
No man has triumphed over Death and Hell save for one: Jesus. He showed Himself to be greater than both.
There stands Jesus, in the presence of Death and Hell, not as their captor...but as their master!
I can almost imagine Death and Hell looking at each other wondering, "What do we do now?"
And then Jesus, reading their minds, says "I'll tell you what you will do: Hand over those keys!"
Rev. 1:17-18 "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
Keys are symbolic of authority. Jesus, a man without sin, died *physically* for just a short time. But Death could not rule Him and Hell could not keep Him. He preached to the righteous dead and they believed. And all who believe in Him are included "in Him" and are treated in the same way that God treats His only begotten Son. Jesus was raised to life: a new life free from the influence of Death. And, as a sign of what Jesus accomplished in Hell, some of the righteous dead were also raised with Him.
"..and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many."
Bless you,
Aaron
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HisGrace
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There are still questions in my mind. What I came away with in Charles' Stanley's statement is that Jesus didn't necessarily go to hell, but that by His grace and mercy Moses, Abraham etc. were automatically atoned for their sins because of their great faith.
Also, if Jesus did indeed go to hell, it wouldn't be to preach, but to find out what it is really like, so that he could have deeper compassion for our souls and warn us in our spirit what it is like. The only beings to preach to would be myriads of demons, and it wouldn't fruitless to preach to them. The souls of sinners won't be there until the great judgment day. Something else just came up in my spirit. God hasn't seen hell because he can't look at sin; he has to turn away his face.
I want to make it clear that I don't believe that the saints of old could have gone to hell. It is a one-way street, with no return. If anything, they would have gone to Paradise in my opinion.
I am still also leaning towards the theory that Paradise is different from heaven. Yes, Paradise is a sort of Garden of Eden. Heaven can't even compare to any Garden of Eden. The words 'To-day you will be with me in Paradise' stick in my mind also. Then again maybe Jesus didn't mean a literal 'to-day'.
However, I don't think that Paradise will be a holding place until the church comes back with Jesus. I believe we go straight to heaven during the Rapture. As the bride is preparing to come back to earth, Rev.19 is speaking about heaven. Vrs. 11 "Then I saw heaven opened and a white horse was standing there."
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Thomas_TDKMM
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I do think that Paradise is a separate place from Heaven. Mainly because the New Heaven and Earth don't start until after the 1000 year reign. I think Paradise, is more likely Eden, moved after the Fall, or another version of a Heavenly place. More like a holding place for the righteous until the New Heaven is created.
I think Paradise is separate from Hell and also not the Heaven promised, just a really good place to be, to learn until the 1000 year Kingdom. Since the earth will be destroyed for the most part during the tribulation, perhaps paradise is where we will be for the 1000 years as well. In the end, the Heavens and Earth will be made new. That's when I believe the promise of Heaven is truly fulfilled.
I think Hebrews does a pretty good job explaining that Abraham, Moses, etc were saved by faith in Jesus, even though He had not yet come. It was their faith that separated them from the works mentality of the pharisees. Since their salvation, just like ours was based on Faith, I don't see why they would spend any time in Hell. I think, just as the Luke story shows, they went to Paradise. They didn't need to be rescued, they wait for the end. I think in the Rapture, they will join the Church and be with Christ at the Second Coming.
As for Charles Stanley, All Sins are forgiven through Christ alone. If his quote is based on the idea the Jesus preached to those in Hell after the crucifixion and they followed Christ then it could be so. All must choose Christ for salvation, there is no other way. As long as Christ is the answer, I believe anything is possible.
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Thomas
www.thomasdoubtknowmore.org
Posts: 5 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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HisGrace
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Welcome to the Board Thomas. I don't want to confuse the issue, but here is another view that is worth studying. I would like you thoughts on this one.
This view states that Paradise is a different place than heaven.
The Garden of Eden was described as a sort of paradise.
Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." (Jesus didn't go to heaven right that day.)
Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. (Paradise could have been a sort of prison, or holding place, until they were released to heaven)
Many believe that Jesus went into paradise where the saints of old like Moses, Noah and Abraham would have been kept, because their souls had never been redeemed by the Spirit and blood of the true Sacrificial Lamb. They had only been temporarily cleansed by the blood of earthly goats and lambs.
It is possible that once their souls would be transported with Jesus when he ascended into heaven.
2 Cor. 12:10 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.
And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell. I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses.
Quote from Adam Clarke Commentary(Bible Study Guide)-"Verse 4. Caught up into paradise
The Jewish writers have no less than four paradises, as they have seven heavens; but it is needless to wade through their fables. On the word paradise See Clarke on Genesis 2:8. The Mohammedans call it [Arabic] jennet alferdoos, the garden of paradise, and say that God created it out of light, and that it is the habitation of the prophets and wise men.
Among Christian writers it generally means the place of the blessed, or the state of separate spirits. Whether the third heaven and paradise be the same place we cannot absolutely say; they probably are not; and it is likely that St. Paul, at the time referred to, had at least two of these raptures."
I also heard Charles Stanley say recently that all sin was forgiven of the believers of God up until the time Jesus died. He didn't give any scriptures to back up this statement.
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Thomas_TDKMM
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I'm new to this board, and this is one of the first posts I've read. Lately I've been studying along the same lines as you've questioned. I put together a lot of information similar to what you've posted. I've been debating/praying about putting it on my website, but I didn't want to mislead anyone. I find that most people want to dismiss an idea like this as a 2nd Chance doctrine and consider it unscripttural. I think you've just cracked the surface of the truth and encourage you to keep searching scripture, not just tradition for answers. Some say that for the 3 days, Christ went to Paradise and moved it to Heaven. I don't think that's right. The Luke account of the Rich man and Lazarus, one in Hell, the other in Paradise does not imply that Paradise is part of Hell, but a separate place altogether. It doesn't seem logical that you would need to be rescued from a place like paradise. I think you are on the right track with your thoughts that Jesus was in fact ministering to those in Hell. I think you can sum up the keys to the bible as Jesus Saves, Love and Forgive your neighbor and treat them as you want to be treated.
God used the Family as a model. We are His Children. When you punish a child, you do it so he will learn, not for the joy of punishment. There is one unforgivable sin.
Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
I think this verse is the definition of Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Actually seeing God, knowing Him and then choosing to rebel. I think this verse applys to Satan and the Demons. For the non-believer, I think you would find it hard to prove enlightenment. In their case, they are lost sheep or Children led astray. They will end up in Hell without Christ, that is certain. They will remain there "forever", or literally to the end of the age. The age of the Jews ended when Christ died on the Cross and was crucified. For those in Hell at that time, it is possible that the End of the Age had come. They could have learned of Him and Followed him. Captives or Prisoners set free.
For those that have gone to Hell after this time, there is no early exit. They too must stay there separated from Jesus until the end of the age. It looks to me like at the end of tribulation, there will be the Sheep/Goat separation. The Sheep/Saved live on in the 1000 year kingdom. They have no fear of the Second Death...The Great White Throne Judgement. At the end of the 1000 years, (again the end of an age), the sea gives up her dead, Satan is released. He will rebel one last time. Who will join him? It won't be those from the 1000 year reign, they have no fear of the 2nd death. We know the demons will join him, because they have committed the unforgivable sin. This leaves us with the People that were in Hell. If this is a judgement, and the People from the 1000 years are not part of it, if the demons can not be redeemed, who will make it? I think it could be the people from Hell. They could reject Satan's rebellion, now that they know the truth and turn to Jesus.
This view seems to go along with the principles of Christ. Forgiveness, Faith in Christ as the only way. It just implies that some people will take longer to see the truth.
One last thought for now, although I could go on and on with parables and parallels to support this idea.
Mt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
The bible is the inspired word of God, written down by men moved by the Spirit. This verse says the eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels. God knew everything from the start. People will spend time there, but if they were to stay with the demons at the end, why would we be told that the eternal fire was prepared for people as well. I think it could be because the people's stay may end at the end of the age.
I hope I haven't offended anyone with this view, but the more I study, the more it jumps out at me. Although most seem to disagree with this, I can't help but feel it may be true. Don't get this confused with Universalism, they deny the truth of Christ, I'm simply saying Jesus can save them too. Perhaps, literally from Hell.
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Thomas
www.thomasdoubtknowmore.org
Posts: 5 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Oct 2005
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HisGrace
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There is a faction in the body of Christ who are accusing certain preachers of being false prophets for preaching that Jesus went to the depths of Hell during the three days and three nights after his physical death. I don't find such teaching will affect anyone's salvation; it is just a personal interpretation of the scriptures by such preachers. Here are some scriptures showing that possibly the 'redemption in hell' view could be correct -
Jesus' three days in the grave were likened to Jonah's three days in the belly of the whale -
MATTHEW 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
JONAH 2:1-2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, and said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Acts 2:24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
Isaiah 53;8-12
By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
After the suffering of his soul,he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many, and made ntercession for the transgressors.
Psalm 22 describes Jesus' death on the cross and also Psalm 88, which follows- O Lord God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee: Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry; For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth. Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.
Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.
LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me? I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted. Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off.
They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together. Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.
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