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Topic: Israel's Rebellion Against the House of David
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BORN AGAIN
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posted
Dear Robby, I think you need to make a better distinction between the house of Israel and the house of Judah. On his deathbed, Jacob said to Ephraim and Manasseh (the sons of Joseph), "Let my name be named upon them". That is, after the Rehoboam/Jeroboam split, the ten northern tribes retained the tribal name "Israel" while the southern kingdom became "Judah".
"Israel" is further known as the "house of Israel" and as "Ephraim" and as "Samaria" and as "Joseph" and as "Isaac".
"Judah" is further known as the "house of Judah" and as "the Jews" and as "Judah, Benjamin and Levi".
The "house of Israel" or "Israel" was dispersed into the countries of the world around 721 B.C. and are still IN the countries. In addition, their ancestral land of Samaria remained occupied by foreigners transplanted there by Shalmaneser and the house of Israel never returned to it and are STILL in among the nations.
The history of the house of Judah is well-known and after 70 A.D., the remnant of the house of Judah joined the house of Israel as dispersed among the nations.
Moreover, the LORD gave Abraham, Isaac and Jacob a set of unconditional promises of becoming "a multitude of people as the sand of the sea" and becoming "many nations" and "kings would come out of her" and they would "possess the gate of their enemies" and they would "inherit the land of Israel again in its entirety".
But on his deathbed, Jacob DIVIDED these unconditional promises by giving Judah, and later the Judah-Davidic family, the Sceptre of kingship which included the Messiah coming through the house of Judah.
But to Ephraim-Israel-Samaria, Jacob gave the remaining unconditional promises of becoming "a multitude of people as the sand of the sea" and becoming "many nations" and "possessing the gates of their enemies".
But is Israel not dispersed among the nations? Yes, Israel is still among the nations.
The questions to ask are then: Has Israel-Ephraim-Samaria become a "multitude of people"? Has she become "many nations"? Has she "posssessed the gates of her enemies"?
But regarding your Topic, it is thus important that an accurate distinction is made between the house of Judah and the house of Israel, and not call Judah "Israel" when Judah only is meant, nor call Israel "Judah" when only Israel is meant.
Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
15 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions.
(In the above verse are two parties: Judah, with Benjamin and Levi as His Israelite companions.
And Joseph-Eprhaim with all the remaining house of Israel his companions.)
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
THE ABOVE HAS NOT HAPPENED YET because the opening of the graves is to happen WHILE the house of Judah and the house of Israel ARE AMONG THE HEATHEN and the result will be that they will COME TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.
God bless, ![[Cross]](graemlins/cross.gif) BORN AGAIN
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AMH
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So you are not saying at what position on the “prophetic clock” the bell will sound for the rapture to occur.
In an earlier posting at another thread you described the rapture as being “secret”. Is this the secret that you were alluding to?
In the old days the Christians had trouble with a group called the Gnostics. What the Christians said was that there should be no secrets allowed. That everyone, (lost and saved) should have the truth explained to them so that all could understand.
Did you really mean to write “secret rapture” a few postings ago?
I am sure that you have made your mind up as to when the rapture is going to occur and that you do not mind telling us.
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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there is one rapture and then after the tribulation there will be the Second Coming.
The Church will be riding white horses behind Jesus who will come back as King.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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TexasGrandma,
The term “rapture” can be used to mean several different things. How are you using the word “rapture”?
Is it the “rapture” that takes place before the “7 year tribulation period”?
Or-
Is it the “rapture” that takes place in the middle of the “7 year tribulation period”?
Or-
Is it the “rapture” that takes place at the end of the “7 year tribulation period”?
Or-
Is it some other “rapture” that takes place?
I think that an even more important question would be-
How many resurrections are there?
0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9…………………..?
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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true but there alot of Christians who agree with me.
Southern Baptist, Assembly of God, Swedish Baptist
all believe the rapture is a true teaching.
The Bible says Jesus is coming for those who are looking for Him. I am looking.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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And I have shown you some very good Christians who disagree with you.
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I am saying that if you are a Christian we will not see the anit-Christ but will be in Heaven when he is established.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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TexasGrandma,
I am not sure I understand your last posting.
In my last posting I was saying that all of those witnesses that I listed were experts and that their testimonies were tried by fire, (literal fire as many were burned at the stake for their testimonies).
And I was also saying that the modern teachers of today are paid mouth pieces whose testimony, (they say) will never be tested by the fire of the anti-Christ.
Who should we trust?
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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Here is a list of names, (that are by no means exhaustive) of early reformers who all identified the anti-Christ:
John Wycliffe (1324 – 1384)
John Huss (1372 – 1415)
Martin Luther (1483 – 1546)
Thomas Cranmer (1489 - 1556)
William Tyndale (1490 - 1536)
John Calvin (1509 - 1564)
Nicholas Ridley (1503 – 1555)
John Knox (1505-1572)
John Bradford (1510-1555)
Thomas Manton (1620 – 1677)
Matthew Henry (1662 – 1714)
It is in their writings and witnessing. It is in their lives and their deaths. It is in Fox’s Book of Martyrs. Here is a portion of the Westminster Confession chapter XXV, section VI, dated 1611-
“VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.”
While it is true that the Reformation splintered into the various denominations that we see today because of their many disagreements, the founders of the Reformation, almost to the man, all agreed on who the anti-Christ is.
How is it possible that all these witnesses could be so wrong?
Here is what the original translators of the King James Bible wrote to King James and placed it into the 1611 Bible-
“And this their contentment doeth not diminish or decay, but euery day increaseth and taketh strength, when they obserue that the zeale of your Maiestie towards the house of God, doth not slacke or goe backward, but is more and more kindled, manifesting it selfe abroad in the furthest parts of Christendome, by writing in defence of the Trueth, (which hath giuen such a blow vnto that man of Sinne, as will not be healed)…” King James Bible 1611 The Epifile p. 2
These were all very devout and godly men, many of who paid the ultimate price.
What have our modern day teachers given? They expect to be paid. They would never consider death part of their job description would they? What they teach is that we will not suffer at the hands of the anti-Christ. This type of teaching is foreign to the men that I have listed
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Once the anti-Christ turns on the Jesws, they will have to flee or be killed. As far as sacrifices. during the 1,000 year reigh, of course not, Jesus would have taken care of ill and He will be the worlds earthly King.
Like I said there have been many who have gone and talked to the Relegious leaders and they are showing them how they are preparing for the new temple.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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The reason that I brought up the rebellion of Israel concerning God not wanting them to have an earthly kingdom is very simple.
If God never intended that nation to have an earthly king then we must be at least a little suspicious by the way some interpret the references to the kingdom in the Bible.
In both the Old and New Testament the Lord plainly says that He fulfilled His obligations to earthly Israel.
The Jews of Jesus day said that Elijah must first come. But Jesus said that if they would accept it that Elijah has already come.
Some say that anti-Christ must come. But if you would accept it, the Bible says that anti-Christ has come already.
AMH
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yahsway
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Of course Yeshua is the Peace that passes all understanding. So we should pray for His people everywhwere and we should pray for His peace to come to Jerusalem and the Jewish people.
Of course there will be no true and perfect peace until He returns. But He said that Jerusalem would not see Him again UNTIL they (unbelieving Jews)say Baruch Haba Ba Shem Adonai(blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord)
They do not say this after He returns, but before. So it is my belief that there will be a False peace to return to Jerusalem and that there will be an anti-Messiah who sets himself up in the temple proclaiming himself to be god and to be worshiped.
Also, for the record, there are more sacrafices besides animals. The sacrafice of Praise, the first fruit offerings (wave offerings of Grain) and so on. They are symbolic of Yeshua, but we as Christians know He alone is the sacrafical lamb of Yahweh God.
It might be helpful if you read some of the last chapters of Ezekiel. This is prophetic for the future.
I like chpter 48:35 And the name of that city from that day shall be: Yahweh Shammah, or The Lord Is There.
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AMH
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TexasGrandma,
I see, so the Jews will be doing animal sacrifice out of ignorance.
But what about the “Millennial rein of Christ”? Are they going to sacrifice animals at that time?
I will admit to you TexasGrandma, that I was a Dispensationalist for many years. But I will look into it again in case I missed something.
Good night for now.
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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You must remember that this will be taking place during the tribulation. There will be so many horrible things going on that animal sacrifing will be hardly a mark on the radar. Why will the Jews do it, because they will truly believe that God will accept the sacrifice. It will not be until the anit-Christ turns on the Jews that their eyes will be open to the truth, that Jesus is Lord.
AMH, no hard feelings. Do a study on this and you will see that the Jews are preparing not only for the temple but preparing the items needed to began again to scarifice. They know that it takes blood to redeem sin, they just don't realize that Jesus' blood did just that.
God bless you,betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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TexasGrandma,
I do not want you to think that I am disrespectful to you or your beliefs as I am not. Although I do not know you personally I am sure that you are a great lady. But I must question your reference to the renewed animal sacrifices.
What possible reason could there be to sacrifice even one animal?
Would it be to take away sins? Impossible.
Would it be for a memorial to the Lord? Then why take communion?
There just is no good reason to sacrifice animals. This has been done away with good lady.
If they start sacrificing animals again then maybe there should be a war to stop the inhumane and wasteful treatment of the poor animals.
AMH
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AMH
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yahsway,
Let me see if I have got this straight. You want me to believe that the anti-Christ is going to invade the Middle East right? So when I am praying for the peace of Jerusalem is this supposed to be after the invasion?
How about if I do this instead. I will pray that sinners will come to the Prince of Peace. And then there will be peace. But not before.
AMH
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yahsway
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AMH, are you a preterist? I agree with you that Yahweh lives in Temples not made of stone, namely His sons and daughters. But there is going to be another temple erected in Israel and the Anti-Messiah will set himself up as god there.
And i wouldnt take it so lightly as to say "so what" We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and to love our Jewish brothers and sisters.
Shalu Shalom Yerushaliem Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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God is not finished with Israel. When the Church is raptured out, the temple will be built and they will worship with sacrifices again. God still loves Israel. God made a promise to Abraham, He has not forgot that promise.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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The fact that you do not care that Israel went against the Lord’s expressed will when they demanded an earthly king like the other nations is an important bit of information.
Jesus said that the temple in Jerusalem is not where it is at, nor in some mountain in Samaria. Would you like to know why? Because we don’t worship that way any more. So what if the Christians got kicked out of the temple. And so what if the Romans tore it down. The temple is irrelevant. We worship in the Spirit and in truth or we do not worship.
For fun lets say they rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. And then some kook splashed pig’s blood around in it. So what? God does not dwell in a temple like that. He dwells in our hearts or we are not saved.
Have you ever read in the book of Acts where God let down a sheet filled with animals and then told Peter to eat? Do not call unclean what God has called clean.
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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I believe in the rapture and I believe that there will be a thrid temple. The Jews themselves are already preparing for the building of this temple.
God bless you,
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Bat Elohim
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the pig thing did happen... but not in the third temple. the third temple hasn't been built yet.
Mrs. Betty ... you are right... we're really close.
but there are some that believe that there will be no physical third temple... but that the third temple is the individual bodies of the saints and this "slaughtering of the pig" is the rebelling of the saints of God. Of them turning their hearts to the anti-christ and rejecting the true Messiah.
We don't really know how much of the prophesies are actual physical things that will happen or are spiritual. I don't know if there truely is a way to tell 100% for certain either way.
All I know is that the signs of the times are pointing to the fast approaching day when our Messiah will return.
I personally don't believe in the rapture... but if it is real... and I would like for it to be... then it could happen any second. If it isn't real... then we are at the fifth seal waiting for the massive earthquake that will shake the whole earth... larger even than the Tsuami earthquake. and that one knocked the earth slightly off her axis... the labor pains are getting bigger and stronger...
Come quickly Yah'shua!!
Blessings and Shalom,
Joanna.
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Numbers 6:24 May ADONAI bless you and keep you. 25 May ADONAI make his face shine on you and show you his favor. 26 May ADONAI lift up his face toward you and give you peace.
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TEXASGRANDMA
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AMH
You do not speak the truth. The anit-Christ has not come into power yet, but I do feel it is very soon.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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Robby
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I was thinking about the rejection of the House of David by Israel, than whether or not they recognize an earthly king.
O.K. Betty, so Israel will be in rebellion until mid-way through the tribulation. Also, Jeremiah 50:1-5 says that the people of Israel and Judah will go together in tears to seek the Lord their God.
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AMH
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TexasGrandma,
A little déjà vu? The anti-Christ you speak of is to slow, (someone already did that gig).
AMH
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TEXASGRANDMA
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Robby,
From the studies I have done on the end times, I feel Israel will be in rebellion until the mid point of the tribulation when the anit-Christ will defile the temple by sacrificing a pig. At this point God will shelter those who choose to flee until the tribulation is over.
betty
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Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
http://www.indieheaven.com/artists/mm (son-in-law)http://www.myspace.com/mireles
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AMH
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Robby,
Before Israel had an earthly king was it God’s will for Israel to have an earthly king?
AMH
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Robby
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I was reading through 1 Kings 12 and a thought occured to me as I was also thinking about the Gaza situation...
It talks about how Israel rebelled against Rehoboam, the king of the House of David and accepted Jeroboam as their king. Meanwhile, Judah remained loyal to the House of David, and Rehoboam was their king.
Later, Jesus was the Lion from the Tribe of Judah and Israel rejected him. He was born of the line of Judah.
Now, I want to fast forward today, because Israel must still be in rebellion to the House of David? According to the prophet Ezekial, chapter 37, the nation of Judah will be reborn. Then Israel and Judah will unite as one nation, under one king. Yet, I'm wondering if there will be an acceptance of the House of David--that is Jesus--in Judah (Revelation mentions about "first fruits" among the saved in Israel during the tribulation). Meahwhile Israel must then remain in rebellion until Armageddon...
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