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Topic: ? about meaning
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KnowHim
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Lack of subordination by the women (vv. 1-16).
From: Wiersbe’s Expository Outlines
Paul is often accused of being critical of women and placing them in an inferior position, but this is not true. He realized that God is a God of order, and that when anything is out of order, there is confusion and loss of power. Paul nowhere teaches that women are inferior to men in the eyes of God, but rather that God has laid down the principle of headship (not dictatorship) that makes Christ the Head of man and man the head of woman. At Corinth, this important principle was being violated. Women were competing with men for public leadership in the church. Furthermore, in the observing of the Lord’s Supper, women were not keeping their proper place and were coming with their heads uncovered; it is this matter that Paul now discusses.
Keep in mind that Corinth was an immoral city, with temple “priestesses” who were prostitutes. One mark of a sinful woman was her short hair; such a woman often walked about the city without the usual veil for a covering. In some Eastern countries even today, women do not appear in public unveiled. This is a sign of disrespect to their husbands and would be interpreted as an invitation to sin. In fact, even among the Jews, a shorn head was a mark of immorality (see Num. 5:11-31, especially v. 18). So, Paul warns the women of the church not to lose their testimonies by worshiping in public without a veiled head. That veil (or covering) was a mark of subordination to the Lord and to their husbands and a recognition of the principle of headship.
Orthodox Jewish men even today wear a prayer cap in their synagogue worship, but this is a practice Paul forbids in the local church. Christ is the Head of man; so, if a man wears a hat in worship, he dishonors his Head. If a woman does not wear a covering, she dishonors her husband, because “woman [was created] for the man” (v. 9). Of course, the mere wearing (or not wearing) of a piece of cloth never changes the heart. Paul assumes that these Christian women obeyed the principle of headship from their hearts and were simply not complying outwardly.
Paul gave several reasons why women must keep their proper place in the church: (1) it shows honor to their husbands; (2) it honors Christ, the Head of the church; (3) it agrees with the plan of creation itself, for God created woman for man; (4) the angels watch our worship and know what we do, v. 10; (5) nature itself gives the woman long hair and the man short hair, thus teaching subordination; (6) this is the practice in all the churches, v. 16. How does this matter of “wearing hats” and “wearing short hair” apply to us today? While we do not have all of the same circumstances that Paul had to deal with in Corinth, we must admit that a woman or a man out of place is always a hindrance to the work of God. There ought to be modesty in the local church, both in dress and action. We dare not conform to the world, lest we lose our testimony.
Posts: 3276 | From: Charlestown, IN | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eduardo Grequi
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About coverings! For the longest time even in Americas history women wore coverings over their head while in public places and places of worship Go back 100 years ago, woman wore hats and some wore whoppers that caused people not able to see the minister. I remember in my church in 1960's women wore scarfs, hats, and veils on their head!Why? Not to cause attention on herself! Also her very hair is said to be a covering too (verse15). Isn't it strange that this particular habit if you will, has not been obeyed by the industral nations of today! Except for nuns, islamic women,strict catholics, amish and most in the middle east. The more business looking the woman, the more unknown disregard for faith in the Lord.
Lets breakdown the paragraph that contains the verse in question.
1 Cor 11:1 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. 2. Now I praise you brethern, that you remember me in all things and keep the TRADITIONS just as I delivered them to you.
Why would Paul the Apostle make a statement keep the traditions that he delivered? TO REMEMBER WHERE WE AS HUMANS FIT IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS.
VERSE 3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of every woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4. Every man praying or prophesying, having is head covered dishonors his head.
Who is the head of the man? Answer "Christ". Therefore Christ is dishonored when a male covers his head.
5. But every womam who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.6.For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn.But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
Remember the head of the woman is the man. When a woman refuses to cover her head she is taking the pants off the man and putting on herself.Declaring that no one is the head of me and dishonoring her head which is the husband. Shaving your head is making a political statement directly against God himself that you are against the written standard. What is the standard for the believer in God?
7).For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image andglory of God; but woman is the glory of man.8). For man is not from woman, but woman from man.9) Nor was man created for te woman, but woman for man.10).For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authoriy on her head, because of the angels.11).Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12). For as woman came from man, even so man also comes throug the woman; but all things are from God.
IN some of the strictest cultures women have been put to death because of this and when men forsook their duties they were also put to death! Angels are messengers of the most High God, because of this women should recognize her authorit in this. REMEMBER we are not here to please and worship ourselves but God, who put in order the things of creation. Wht is you motivation for your daily tasks? Who gets the glory-you or God? Even the smallest decisions and the briefest interpersonal encounters should be don so that God receives glory. A virtuous wife is hard to find especially nowadays because of the woman's liberation movement. PROVERBS 31:10-31
defines the virtuous wife.
IN a nutshell we are subject to God and His order of things anything contrary to that is in direct defiance of His holy command!
Women, do you want to be a great witness for God , do not bring attention on yourself but to God only. Men it is important that we too follow the calling that God gave to us, if not God will use the woman and bring shame on us for being lacking in responsiblities, IN THE BOOK OF JUDGES, it demostrates what happens when men forsake their duties, God used a woman DEBORAH, and quite effectively. Nothing is impossible for God regarding His mission, BUT HE WILL NEVER MAKE A ROCK TOO BIG THAT HE CAN NOT CONTROL!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Maybe you will be sending someone out before you know it Aaron.... PA is pretty close to Ohio as I recall! ![[dance]](graemlins/dance1.gif)
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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Laurie's right. I tend to think of ourselves as the church in our particular area...where we are there the church is. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
As it is in our small Ohio town it is so in Pennsylvania because it is the Lord who circumcises our hearts and marks us for His good work. And where-ever the saint finds himself there is work to be done.
Aaron
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LaurieFL
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As his church is a home group, they probably don't have a name. Just a guess
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luvfreelife
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Arron,
I see much wisdom and Godliness in your posts and would like to ask you what your church is named, as I am looking for a church that truly follows the teachings of the Lord.
Also do you observe the sabbath?
God Bless you
luvfreelife
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
I was thinking more as a covering of protection from evil forces. Every Christian could use that.
To be sure.
Our baptism is one such covering. It is a testimony of authority that the demons cannot deny.
Aaron
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron:
To be sure of what they are commissioning the elders have a responsibility to discern whether or not the person's ministry is of God. There are many ministers who "go out" on their own volition not minding the Lord's direction. For them there is no covering of authority.
I was thinking more as a covering of protection from evil forces. Every Christian could use that.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by HisGrace:
Wouldn't it be wonderful if every person going into ministry could be subject to this wonderful act of "impenatrable blanket of authority" by fellow believers in the laying of hands.
To be sure of what they are commissioning the elders have a responsibility to discern whether or not the person's ministry is of God. There are many ministers who "go out" on their own volition not minding the Lord's direction. For them there is no covering of authority.
"Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people's sins; keep yourself pure."
Aaron
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Aaron said: Our elders have covered women without a covering. Some examples come to mind. One was called to minister in Africa. Before she left the elders laid hand on her and commissioned her work. This may have seemed like a small thing to some but for her it was a blanket of impenetrable authority in the presence of the demonic (the place in Africa was know for occultic practices and witch doctors). She experienced freedom under her covering not bondage.
quote:
This is a great example Aaron, I thought it ironic your description - "Impenetrable blanket of authority". A few years ago a small group from our church went to Africa, and on that trip were two women from our church who are widows and one woman who went without her husband because he would not get away from their ranch.
Before they left the same thing was done for the whole group, and while they were there we covered them continually in prayer as well.
You were speaking in another thread in regard to the elders in your congregation laying on hands and confirming the calling of members in your congregation to their specific postions in the body....teacher etc..
Wouldn't it be wonderful if every person going into ministry could be subject to this wonderful act of "impenatrable blanket of authority" by fellow believers in the laying of hands.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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HisGrace: I thought that your comments illustrate very well what this tread is about. Spiritual covering, spiritual authority in and among the body, and the operation of the local body within the realm of the authority as established by the apostles for the apostolic church.
The devil himself could not have painted a better picture of what can and does happen in the world, as the one you have painted with the firefighters and their good and commenable deeds for those affected by 911 in NYC.
I was not aware of this situation, but it certainly is the perfect picture of the devil's work.
Then you illustrated exactly what the devil would do with this kind of situation....use it in the minds of people to implant fear that the work of God might not be accomplished in a local body. Couple this fear with a worldly church were church discipline is not practiced, where spirtual authority is not recognized or practiced, where members see the church as where they go and not what they are and see their lives lived in the world as separate from their lives lived in the church as opposed to lives lived as the church and you do indeed have the makings of disaster and tragedy.
There is very good reason for such fear in the world, and there is very good reason for such fear in the worldly church.
I believe that too many churches today are buildings where people go to put a little God in their lives a couple times a week, and then leave to return to their lives when they leave the building.
I know of very few churches who practice church discipline, and few churches limit ministries to people in the church who are born again, baptised, and taught on issues of spiritual authority.
I see that in too many churches elders are reduced to operations managers or building directors and are not spiritual leaders placed in the body and given to the body as such.
I see that in too many churches they have become boards of directors over the pastor as if he were an employee of the church and not one sent by God to the church.
I think that there are few churches where the elders would come together and go to a brother in the congregation to hold him accountable for his family's well being, his personal walk, his spiritual leadership in the home, his sin before the community etc.
I can think of few congregations where a man in the church who has had a drinking problem and been free of alcohol for a number of years and then slips in a weak moment one friday because he has lost his Job and is struggling, would come on Sunday to church and say to the Pastor, Pastor I need to address the body, and then stand before the congreagation and say I have sinned against all of you and against my family and against God.... here is what I did, please forgive me, please pray for me.... and then the elders would come forth to lay hands on him in prayer?
I can think of few churches and know few church members where the pastor or the pastor's wife or one of the elders would be the first person brought into a domestic issue where the enemy has attacked a family in the areas of infidelity or personal or sexually related issues.
I fear that in most churches even rumor of such thing would lead to heads turning to look away and not talk about it or to talk about only for gossip rather than resulting in the body coming together to hold people accountible and to support reconcilliation and healing and forgiveness so that the parties involved are built up in faith and protected by the body from the destruction the enemy wants to bring.
Few churchs view their members as connected to each other and each others lives in such a way that what happens to one happens to all and what effects one effects all and when one sins that sin is felt by all and it hurts all.
These things have to be taught and not just taught but practiced for a body to function as it ought. When they are taught and practiced the body has to be in unity regarding these kinds of issues and where some aren't in unity or cant be brought in unity, they cant remain in that body if the body is going to function as it ought.
The world does not think twice about a man going into a home alone with a woman who is alone.
I dont think that this should be the case in the local congregation and I dont think that it matters if the woman is 22 or 75 single or married.
And not for fear that your faith and ability to walk in the spirit is not stronger than your felsh either..... but because we are not to give even the appearance of evil that we cause another to sin even in thought....so out of repect for even the neighbor next door who might not know you and might be led to gossip, you dont do these things.
These things have to be taught and they have to be accepted by the body if the local body is going to function as a body.
Sadly I fear, the topic of discussion in most churches is not the making of disciples and being not conformed to the ways of the world, but is how you can name it and claim it and get more of what the world has.
Sadly I fear there are not many churches where the women rspect and honor the spiritual authority of men in the home or in the gathering of the local body.
Sadly I fear there are not many churches where women are taught by older women to be Godly women as the scriptures call us to teach.
Too often we see church as a place to go to get something we want or need and not as who we are. When we leave our church buildings on Sunday or Saturday, we dont stop being the church to the church that we fellowship with.
The subject of this thread was the covering over a woman's head that is a symbol of a spiritual authority that she has chosen to live under. The body of Christ as it assembles in the congregation of a local body under the authority of Christ and with each piece functioning as the piece that it was given to the body as by God forms a blanket of supernatural protection and authority that covers the whole body like a blanket at all times and protects them from the wiles of the devil while the minister to each other.
If we can get a grip of this, we can see why Paul says he has turned over Alexander and Hymenaeus to Satan that they learn not to blaspheme, because outside that blanket of supernatural authority, covering, and protection the devil can have his way with us. The church is designed by God to provide us with supernatural protection against all the wiles of the devil.
This is one of the reasons why we are not to forsake the assembling. We were not designed and cannot function as we ought if we are not functioning connected to a local congregation...
This is an essential thing to the working of the body as a whole in the community, to the working of us personally as individuals following Christ and to local church itself. Even the Apostles has to restore the "12" and they knew it...because they did not go out alone themselves and when they established a local body, they did not leave it as scattered individual believers, they left it assembled with elders and other positions filled and they gathered daily.
To Live is Christ - but Christ is inseparably joined with his body the church - its not a place to go.... it is what we are... our lives are hid in Christ and we are hid in the body assembled from the enemy. There is power and safety living in the world as the church rightly fitted together and assembled as the church in a local congregation.
This seems like foolishness to the world and it seems like foolishness to the wordly church that does not operate as it ought and it may seem like foolishness to those who have not lived or do not live in this covering - but to those who live under it and to the unseen realm it is very real and very powerful. Outside of Authority there is danger to be feared. Underneath authority there is no fear and there is power to stand in the evil day.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Aaron said: quote:
Our elders have covered women without a covering. Some examples come to mind. One was called to minister in Africa. Before she left the elders laid hand on her and commissioned her work. This may have seemed like a small thing to some but for her it was a blanket of impenetrable authority in the presence of the demonic (the place in Africa was know for occultic practices and witch doctors). She experienced freedom under her covering not bondage.
This is a great example Aaron, I thought it ironic your description - "Impenetrable blanket of authority". A few years ago a small group from our church went to Africa, and on that trip were two women from our church who are widows and one woman who went without her husband because he would not get away from their ranch.
Before they left the same thing was done for the whole group, and while they were there we covered them continually in prayer as well.
This was a short trip and they had gone with a specific purpose as part of a evangelical team that envolved other churches, but they saw and experienced some things that they expressed would have been very frightening without the understanding that they had been called by God and sent by their local body and they took with them that "blanket of authority" as they did tread on enemy ground.
You were speaking in another thread in regard to the elders in your congregation laying on hands and confirming the calling of members in your congregation to their specific postions in the body....teacher etc..
Do you see that this covering that women are to have as addressed in these scriptures is the same kind of spiritual covering that is given in the elders laying on hands and confirming the position of members in the body?
I can see that this is an essential thing to have particularly for those who preach and teach and pray because I think that they enemy comes against these gifts and positions in particularly hostile and cunning ways and if you did not have that confirmation that this is indeed the position that God has given you as to this local body as then the enemy could really attack you and cause you to be unstable in that position and in your person through spiritual warfare.
I am reminded of the response of Peter and the others at the Jerusalem council to Paul... in reality they who were to him elders confirmed his position as apostle to the Gentiles and he did walk in that without hesitation. Of course Christ himself had sent Paul and Paul knew this, but I wonder if he would have been so effective and so bold and full of strength against the wiles of the enemy if he had not received this conformation from the elder apostles?
The spiritual realm does operate within a ordered and established system of authority. It seems that our understanding of this is lacking. I know that my understanding of this is not what it ought be.
I was thinking on this and thinking of the armour of God....and I was reminded of the story in Acts where the evil spirits say: "Jesus I know, Paul I know, but who are you."
Are these not elements of the whole armour of God not elements of our established authority as saints? Do these things not cover us - that the enemy in the unseen realm see the limitations of thier own authority against us?
Truth, Righteousness, faith, salvation, preparedness in the Gospel, and the Word.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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bygrace
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quote:
the devil doesn't give two hoots about their 'mission'
I agree, he does not and as a matter of fact- he may very well be in full attack mode against those that are in this position. Usually though, as is common practice as far as I am aware..men don't step into this type of service alone...being alone etc. Now, If they do this, they are inviting trouble just by the fact that others will view it questionable.
We are not to give the perception of evil.
But, I think that in the case above this is not the way it is done, from what I gather, it is a consorted effort and the men are doing this as a whole.
with that in mind I see no problem with what this particular group is doing.
Not all churches have a good policy on these practices maybe, but I am seeing the above situation differently in that regard.
We could list many things about what should and should not go on in the church, but it boils down to the individual people and their commitment to Christ- If they are willing to compromise, it will happen regardless, anywhere..especially on the outside of the church.
bygrace
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by bygrace:
but let us give credit to the Godly men out there who have no intention of useing a mission area to gain access to a vulerable woman.
Sure, I think this is commendable also, but the devil doesn't give two hoots about their 'mission'. What about these vulnerable women? They could be sending out subtle messages, maybe intentionally or unintentionally -that's a stronghold for the devil.
If these men are helping out with the children of these women and one of these men has to pick up her son for a baseball game, and he goes to the door and gets "Sorry Johnny was picked by his father, but please come in I have a problem to discuss with you." The potential is there for a tragedy waiting to happen, no matter how deep this man's faith is.
Ephesians 6:10-12 A final word: Be strong with the Lord's mighty power. Put on all of God's armor so that you will be able to stand firm against all strategies and tricks of the Devil.
For we are not fighting against people made of flesh and blood, but against the evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against those mighty powers of darkness who rule this world, and against wicked spirits in the heavenly realms.
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bygrace
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I bielive that the men are meeting all together to pray, as this is done in many churches.
I don't think it is a one-on-one thing with one- man and one-woman.
But like I said above, they are most probably Christian men with integrity and the wives know this.
Not all men are so tempted with lust- some are grounded in God's truth and know they are under His watchful eye.
If these men were not Christian- they would be in an altogether different category. I know that Christiens fall too, but let us give credit to the Godly men out there who have no intention of useing a mission area to gain access to a vulerable woman.
I say Praise God for the Godly men out there- so many get a bad rap for what other men do. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
bygrace
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
As I stated the men work together.
I pray that they stay together when they are ministering. There should be strict guidelines in place.
The most saintly person alive has weaknesses, and you can be sure that the devil, with all of this wicked craftiness, is just waiting for the chance to bring such a person down.
As the scriptures say, we are not fighting against flesh - he never sleeps.
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bygrace
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quote:
I do not know about the firefighters, but I would imagine that they are not members of the body of Christ together in a local congregation. I would imagine that some of the things they did to help these women were things that were motivated by a personal sense of benevolence and not call to serving God.
At reading this again, I too suspect that these men were hardly in the same category as those firefighters who did wrong...
Some may suspect innocent men of having an agenda when in fact they do not, except to help these women in Christ's name. This is born of satan's attack on insecurity possibly.
But to categorize them on having the same aganda is not correct. These wives apparently have Christian husbands they can fully trust, Praise God for men like that!
bygrace
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helpforhomeschoolers
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quote:
The men?? Oohh that's a scary thought. Where are their wives?
Yes the men meet weekly at our church to pray over the women in our congregation that have no earthly covering.
Where are the wives? Hmmmm some are in a women's study down stairs, some work, some are at home. The wives in our church very much support that the men support these women. We support them also.
This is something our congregation supports as a whole. As I stated the men work together. This is part of their ministry in the church and we who are wives support our husbands in this, and most of us are also close with these women. Many of the members of our church have been together for a number of years. The same pastor has pastored this church for 25 years. Some of these women are women whose husbands were founders of this church and have now passed on. Most are older but not all. I can think of two who are divorced with boys and are probably my age. One of the boys usually sits with us in church because he loves my husband and needs the male attention - they share an interest in the guitar. I am thankful to have a husband who cares about this young man.
I do not know about the firefighters, but I would imagine that they are not members of the body of Christ together in a local congregation. I would imagine that some of the things they did to help these women were things that were motivated by a personal sense of benevolence and not call to serving God. I suppose that maybe they did not themselves operate in right spiritual authority in their their deeds or as a body that supports one another and holds one another accountible. I would imagine that when a group of men are seeking God together in their actions then it would be difficult to have their minds and intentions elsewhere at the same time. You cant walk after the Spirit and after the flesh simultaneously. The women in our church also pray collectively for the men in our church, I would imagine that this helps them to be better men for God than if this was not the case.
I dont know... but it is working and has been working for some time now.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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bygrace
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wow..I had no idea that this occured. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
The devil needs very little foothold though.
That is awful.
bygrace
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
In our church the men meet weekly to pray over and demonstrate their taking responsibility for those women in our local body that have no earthly covering.
The men?? Oohh that's a scary thought. Where are their wives? The fireman in NYC are apparently like a family and after 9/11 many of the surviving fireman "helped' those women in their body who had no earthly covering and many marriages were shattered because of their 'great concern' for these widows.
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Aaron
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quote:
Originally posted by helpforhomeschoolers:
Aaron, I would be interested to know if you have any thoughts on how this speaks to the resposibilites of the local body to cover the woman that are without cover in the earthly realm such as widows etc...I am curious about what you might know in this regard.
Our elders have covered women without a covering. Some examples come to mind. One was called to minister in Africa. Before she left the elders laid hand on her and commissioned her work. This may have seemed like a small thing to some but for her it was a blanket of impenetrable authority in the presence of the demonic (the place in Africa was know for occultic practices and witch doctors). She experienced freedom under her covering not bondage.
Another time we knew we were having guests at our Sunday meeting. They wanted to speak with us. This couple had a son who experienced abuse at the hands of "counselors" in a state-sponsored, "Christian", youth program. A case against the group was formed. The group was very powerful and it was likely that the case would make it at least to the State Supreme court taking judges, mayors, and politicians with it. Their church family told them they wanted nothing to do with the their issue so we knew they had been buffeted pretty badly in their present storm.
The day of our meeting the husband could not attend so only the wife showed. So, she was without her covering. Normally we take part of the Lord's table at the end of our meeting, this time we took it at the beginning. The reason: we wanted the woman to know we thought of her as we think of other saints: part of the Body of Christ. A short teaching about our unity in Christ was given to the group, we took of the bread and wine, and invited the woman to share her struggle. The elders made it known that she had freedom to share what she came to share. The heaviness lifted from her and she shared her life struggle with us. The covering she received comforted her.
These are just two examples.
Aaron
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helpforhomeschoolers
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posted
Well, bygrace, I cant tell you that I fully understand this from a Biblical perspective in how this can be done and cannot. I am very cognizant in my thinking on this that in a marriage situation there is a physical and real union before God of these two people and that is not the case when speaking in regard to women who are unmarried - I do not know what or if this has bearing on covering these women. I know that in our local body there are several who are widowed or divorced or single mothers and I know that they do feel strengthened to know that the men meet weekly to pray for them and over them. I know that the married men and especially elders in our church do support them in other ways such as being available to seek with them prayerfully God's guidance on issues - much like what Aaron has described in the relaying of Jennifer's word to Aaron, and then Aaron to an elder. If a widow in our church for example was considering something like..... selling a home or any real life issue that she felt she needed covering in she would go to the pastor or one of the elders who would themselves seek God in this with her and then seek Confirmation of how God had spoken to them through each other. Or maybe she was looking to buy a house....they might do something as simple as go with her to meet with a real estate agent or something like this to be there to support her and give the message that she is not alone and the situation will have to pass the scrutiny of 2 and not one person. I think you can see how this might look in other situations. But on a spiritual level I think it gives a level of protection in the spiritual realm as two people are seeking pray and God's leading separately to then be brought to be shared corporately if you will. So I guess I am saying I do not know if it is Biblical, and I would like to understand this better, but I do know that it is an expressed comfort to the women in our church. It makes us more a family - a young woman with a child does not have to feel that she has no godly male support for issues with her son for example. One of the men would be available to support her by spending time with the son, or offering him guidance, or even accountability or teaching him to be a Godly young man in regard to issues of leadership etc... and the men who lend themselves in this way have the support of each other and their wives to lean on as well.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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bygrace
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quote:
In our church the men meet weekly to pray over and demonstrate their taking responsibility for those women in our local body that have no earthly covering. Both the OT and the new speak to caring for and ministering to the earthly needs of the widows, but in our church the men see this as not just physical but spiritual responsbibility and it is demonstrated in a variety of ways. But I am curious about what you might know in this regard.
I think the church of today should take note of this, this is so desperately needed! So much is put into the physical needs of people without the spiritual needs being met.
I have (personally) never heard this being preached...but I would love to know that it is.
bygrace
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Excellent post Aaron. I dont think that it is a "demon under ever rock" mindset at all, I think that we very much are called to understand that there is an unseen realm that are witness to all that we do.
I think that this scripture speaks to this:
Hebrews 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
That word cloud is a word that means cover - like clouds that cover. This I believe is why we are to walk in the spirit and not the flesh... our sin is seen in the unseen realm and when we sin it is known by the unseen realm that we are in disobedience and thus we become like a flashing neon sign to powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places that the door to our spiriitual house so to speak is open for the spoiling thereof.
I believe that this scripture and the one on women's heads being covered go hand in hand. Our lives are a witness to angels Holy and unholy.
Aaron, I would be interested to know if you have any thoughts on how this speaks to the resposibilites of the local body to cover the woman that are without cover in the earthly realm such as widows etc...
In our church the men meet weekly to pray over and demonstrate their taking responsibility for those women in our local body that have no earthly covering. Both the OT and the new speak to caring for and ministering to the earthly needs of the widows, but in our church the men see this as not just physical but spiritual responsbibility and it is demonstrated in a variety of ways. But I am curious about what you might know in this regard.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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Aaron
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We see in verse 15 that no veil is required. It is her hair that is the "symbol" of authority on her head (vs. 10).
The visible covering is not the covering that affects the angels. The visible covering is merely symbol of an unseen covering, spiritual covering, that functions in the spiritual realm. Just as my visible head is not Christ's head a woman's head, man, is not her physical head.
If a man should cover a woman it must be something other than insisting upon a certain hair length or white cap.
Aaron
P.S. I wrote about this issue earlier...
quote:
On a practical note I feel it necessary to share *how* such a covering may look within a proper church. I will draw this illustration from my life...it includes my wife and she has given me permission to use her as a reference.
If my wife has something from the Lord to say in a formal church gathering she will first tell me, "I have something to say from the Lord." Then she will share with me what it is she has. Often it is a question but sometimes it is a statement.
If I deem the word is of the Lord (and I have yet to find otherwise) I will approach my closest elder and tell him, "My wife has something to say from the Lord." My words to him are proof enough that I believe her words are valid.
When the time is right the elder will allow me to speak. I say, "Jennifer has something to say from the Lord."
Here, I have just covered her. She is now free to speak her words without fear of malice or spiritual attack (I'm not a "demon under ever rock" kinda guy but anybody who has spoken on behalf of the Lord has felt the enemy attempt to impede either the words themselves or your confidence in them...but I digress.) In fact, since I have covered her properly any "attacker" will have to deal with me first.
If, by chance (and this has not happened yet, either), the elders believe the words were not of the Lord they will approach me in private first and then they will address the issue with the saints. I am then obliged to correct my wife at home or in private. Still, she is being corrected by a man who has given and continues to give his life for her. Because she was covered she is never subject to the enemy's condemnation. She is free to prophesy and prophesy she does!
Such a covering has worked in another way. One day a sweeper salesman came to the house. I was not home. He was very persuasive so my wife called me at work:
"Honey, there is a sweeper salesman here. The sweeper is nice..but..I know we have not talked about this..anyway, his demonstration was very well done. And it *is* a nice unit."
I said, "Dear, you feel pressured to buy it. I can tell."
Jennifer, "Yes. He just won't take no for an answer."
I said, "Dear, *my* answer is no. Tell him 'my husband said no.'"
She did that.
Jennifer, "He said he would like to talk with you. He said He'll be back after you get off of work."
I said, "Fine. Tell him he should leave now and return at 5:00 p.m."
She did.
At five he returned to my door. I answered. He was nice and eager. Again he asked me if I though about the sweeper any more.
"No," I said, "I have not."
He started with his spiel.
"Wait," I said, "I already said no. I am a man of my word. If I buy the sweeper now I become a liar."
Stunned silence.
"Have a nice day." says I.
My wife was so relieved. She was grateful for my intervention but felt a little shame for having been so persuaded by the salesman's pitch.
"Nonsense," I said, "You did everything I asked you to, wife. ***the last part "wife" is a keyword in our home. By my using it she understood I was covering her and realized the issue was about much more than a simple sweeper purchase.***
She smiled. The shame has no foothold. She was free again.
Aaron
and here...
quote:
Now, I know there is no consideration of male or female in Heaven but then what do we do with the teachings wherein male and female are the central issues? Certainly we cannot discount them as in the "archaic norms" argument. So... what?
Another character of the Kingdom of God on earth is that it is designed to mirror the reality of the eternal Kingdom: the one in Heaven *and* earth. Whereas the passed saints lack nothing in Heaven the earthy saints are limited, still, by their tents of flesh and are therefore subject to the schemes of the powers of Darkness, and it is with these we wrestle. So, any prescribed order of authority on earth must deal with 1) our weaknesses in the flesh and 2) the powers who seek to take advantage of our weaknesses.
For instance, we all agree that through Adam all have sinned. Without an understanding of eternity such a notion is foolish: "How am I made a sinner by something some dude did thousands of years ago?" I don't have time to get into it now but obviously God reckons us "sinners" so what can we say? We are sinners in need of an answer to it.
And the answer must mirror the reality of Heaven because that is where authority lies...the powers that be are subject only to legitimate authority. Without an answer we are hopelessly subject to the Darkness.
Bah, I have to run. I hope I have time to finish this later today.
Be Blessed,
Aaron
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bygrace
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Thank you for your replies..
I am going to check out
John Gill's Exposition ( I have not heard of this before) I am though, behind.
and-
Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown Commentary
I have so much to learn.....
![[type]](graemlins/type.gif)
bygrace
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HisGrace
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Part of Jamieson, Fawcett and Brown Commentary -
"As the angels are in relation to God, so the woman is in relation to man. God's face is uncovered; angels in His presence are veiled ( Isa 6:2 ). Man's face is uncovered; woman in His presence is to be veiled. For her not to be so, would, by its indecorousness, offend the angels ( Mat 18:10, 31 ). She, by her weakness, especially needs their ministry; she ought, therefore, to be the more careful not to offend them.""
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peh
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Hi, bygrace, I thought this part of John Gill's Exposition of the Bible reference to the verse you posted was interesting:
".....Moreover, this veiling of the woman in public worship because of angels, may be an imitation of the good angels, who when they sang the praises of God, and adored and glorified his perfections, covered their faces and their feet with their wings, (Isaiah 6:1-3)."
Being compared to good angels who sing praises to God sounds a lot better than that women should cover their hair so that "they might not offend either of these (angels or men), or stir up any impure desires in them; see (Ecclesiastes 5:6)" which Gill also says is an interpretation held by some. ![[youpi]](graemlins/youpi.gif)
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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bygrace
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1 Corinthians 11:10 (King James Version)
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
Can someone expound on this for me?
I do know that some denominations still have the women use headcoverings...
What is Paul referring to in regard to the Angels?
bygrace
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