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Topic: Help! My ++++ is in a 7th Day Adventist Church
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yahsway
Advanced Member
Member # 3738
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posted
I praise God that the handwriting of ordinances (the penalty) was taken away.
Now if I sin(And what is sin? Transgression/breaking of Gods laws) I wont be stoned to death, or taken outside the camp, ect..
Its kinda like breaking the speed limit laws. If I get caught, I get a ticket and have to pay the fine/penalty/ordinance. But that doesnt change the speed limit law. It will still be there.
Col 2:17 Let no man judge you but the body of Christ. This [is] in that was added to the scriptures. Whenever you see italics in your scriptures that means it was added to the origional. So I do read it as let no man judge you in these things but the assembly/church.
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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evangelistdare
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Member # 4746
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As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit,
after the tradition of men,
after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him,
which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God,
who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh,
hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of
ordinances that was against us,
which was contrary to us,
and took it out of the way,
nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers,
he made a shew of them openly,
triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink,
or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath [days]:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come;
but the body [is] of Christ
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In Christ's service always, Evangelist Dare
Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
Posts: 177 | From: n.c. | Registered: Jun 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by peh:
HisGrace referenced a research paper on Matt 24:20 which said in part: "He simply advises Christians that for circumstantial reasons, they should pray that the need to flee will not arise on the Sabbath" But what are those circumstantial reasons?
anyway, I'm as confused as ever. Help me out, anyone?
During the tribulation there is going to be a small portion of the Jews who are going to be saved from its ravages by heading for the mountains. Fleeing on a Sabbath would be inconvenient because it may raise indignation of orthodox Jews by travelling on that day. Also because gates were shut and barred on the Sabbath, admission through secure areas would be impossible.. Symbolically if it is speaking about the future, it would mean that life pretty well comes to a halt on the Sabbath and it would be difficult to travel.
You say you are confused peh. If I had questions about the Sabbath I would see what the NT and the Epistles have to say about honouring the New Covenant, keeping in mind that the legalism of the law died by the shedding of Jesus' precious blood on the cross.
You could start by reading Romans 7 and really study it until the discernment of the scriptures speak to you personally about the proper direction you should take regarding the more appropriate day of rest.
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Peh, I want to say to you, do not either take your "heart prick" concerns too lightly, it may be that your friend is not accepted Christ, but is relying on legalism to save her and that is a very dangerous place to be. I would really seek God for his guidance on what to say to her when. One of the most dangerous things that I find in too many churches today is the absence of preaching holiness, santicfication of HIM in our hearts; those who have an inner sense of what God wants from us often do not find it in church today where too often God is made to be what people who want their sin and want to live forever want God to be, rather that what and who God is, and that is that he is a HOLY God. And so these people who have this inner sense and do not find what feels right to them in church end up in groups or cults that add to salvation and this is sad. I cant tell you how many american men I have talked with that became Muslim because they understood that God wanted holiness.... and prayer and rules appeak to them.
The adventists that I have had relationships with are not seeking to save themselves and that is a very important issue and in some cases a fine line.
quote:
BUT I believe He has abolished the Law in Christ, that He is the fulfillment of all of them. I believe God is done with the Law, BUT that indeed He has written them into our hearts YET not in the form they were received thru Moses. Those were shadows and forms of the True Law, the Law of Life in Christ.
Well, here we will have trouble. I assure you that he has not abolished the Law. He has written them on our hearts and by his indwelling spirit made it possible for us to obey.
I speak of the 10 commandments, which all are hung on 2.
Christ has always been the fulfillment of the Law Peh. Always been.
Christ is the spirit of the Law. The spirit of Grace that those who were found righteous under the Law understood, and when Christ was manifest, the object of faith that is Christ was taken from the law, so that those who today in judaism serve the law serve without grace.
Christ fulfills the law. What does that mean. It means he completes the law. The letter of the law could not save. It was not intended to save. It was intended to bring knowledge of sin, which would bring guilt and condemnation, which would lead to repentance. Then the spirit of the Law would come with Grace and mercy to the contrite and humble heart and impart righteousness to the one who demonstrated his faith in God's word by obeying or following what God has said and believing that God would do what God had said he would do..bless the obedient.
Christ makes the Law complete. Christ was never apart from the Law... Christ was the word that God etched with his authoritative right hand on tablets of stone and gave to Moses. Those words - the Word of a Holy God are now etced in your heart because Christ is in you and you in him.
In no way has the law been abolished, The grace that was once in the written law in spirit, is now manifest in the human cricified, died, buried and risen and Glorified Christ. He is now the object of our faith.
What has been abolished is the guilt and condemnation of the Law, and the penalty of the law, for those whose faith is in and of Christ.
1 John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
We have a changed law and a NEW covenant. The old law was not abolished it was changed.
The New covenant of Grace does not remove our yoke, it makes it burdenless to bear:
Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
If you need me to show this in scripture, I will be happy to do so.
The law HAD a shaddow of good things to come, in that it gave atonement from year to year, for the sins of the nation. When Christ came, he brought atonement for all by entering once into the holy of holies with the perfect sinless blood. This was something that the Levite and Zodak priests could not do, then had to enter year after year. The good thing to come was that when Christ entered he entered once and for all.
Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
The holidays and the new moons are a shaddow of things yet to come as Yahsway has said, there are 3 feasts that Christ has yet to fulfil.
Colossians 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
The nations will learn the oracles of God in the millennial Kingdom and will come to Jerusalem for the feast of Tabernacles:
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
As to Sabbath keeping - the Sabbath was a weekly day given to the covenant people so they could experience that Sabbath rest of God that they would one day live in when they lived in the 7th day in the promised land. This day is not come for the remnant of the 12 tribes that will enter the promised land at the 2nd advent of Christ. This is the earthly millenial Kingdom of Christ.
Still there is coming an 8th day, when there is a new heaven and a new earth and the authority that is vested in the son is placed back with the father and God is all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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yahsway
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St.Peh, there are 7 Feast Days of the Lord. They often do not fall on the weekly Sabbath of Fri sundown to Sat sundown.
But they are High Holy Days which were regarded as weekly Sabbath days in which no work was done ect..
They are:
1. Pesach/Passover
2. Hag HaMatzah/Feast of unleavened bread
3. Bikkurim/First Fruits of barley Harvest
4. Shavuot/Feast of Weeks/Pentecost
5. Rosh HaShanah/Feast of Trumpets
6. Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement
7. Sukkot/Feast of Tabernacles
All have been historically fullfilled except these 3 which are future. The Day of Atonement, Rosh Hashanah and Feast of Tabernacles. These are to be fullfilled during the 2nd coming of the Messiah Jesus.
Rosh HaShanah will be the Resurection of the Dead. It is known as the Blowing of the Trumpets.
Day of Atonement is the Day of the Messiahs second coming
Tabernacles is the Messianic era/1000 Millennium
The quotation from that man about the Sabbath being made only for the Jews is ridiculous. It was made for whomsoever will cleave to the God of the Jews. At the time the Hebrew children left Egypt, they took a mixed-multitude with them. When Ruth told Naomi your people will be my people and your God my God, Im sure she did not say oh but by the way, I dont do the Sabbath like you "Jews"do.
There is a passage from Isaiah 56 I want you to read.
verse3 Do not let the son of the Foreigner Who has Joined himself to the Lord speak saying, "The Lord has utterly seperated me from His people"; Nor let the Eunuch say "Here I am a dry tree."
For thus says the Lord; "To the eunuch who keep my Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast my covenant, even to them I will give in My house and within My walls, a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. And please read the rest thru verse 8.
Many gentiles were joined with the Jewish people after the return from Babylon captivity. They were proseyletes into Judaism. So you see, the Sabbaths were made for anyone who would cleave to the God of Israel, not just for the Jews. And in the future kingdom, Jews and Gentiles will worship God togethere.
I hope this helps you. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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peh
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Thanks everyone who responded, I got a lot out of all the posts.
Thanks HFHS, for this: quote:
My suggestion is that you tell her that you do keep the sabbath on Saturday, as you do, I am sure because the scripture says that we who have entered his rest have ceased from our own works. Ask her that she respect the way in which you keep the Saturday sabbath and tell her that you will give her mutual respect in the way that God leads her to keep the Sabbath..
The first sentence is what I believe to a certain extent, ie, that we have entered His rest and ceased from our own works; I am just not sure that fully qualifies as "keeping the Sabbath Day holy". As for the last of your quoted sentences....well, I think she is afraid I'm going straight to hell for going to church Sunday.
She is a family member and so it is pretty intense to attempt to find some common ground we can agree on, since she so wants to impress me that not keeping Sabbath will be my ruination.
Still, HFHS, I think the advice is perfectly sound and I'll attempt to get her to understand I do respect her faith, even if I don't agree with it's tenets. It scares me, though, that she puts so much faith into keeping Sabbath, not drinking coffee, reading "Desire of the Ages", and other Adventist literature, etc, etc, etc. I seldom hear her speak of Jesus since she got involved with the 7th Day church.
Glad to hear from you that 7th Day Adventists do believe in Jesus and His efficacious blood. I don't believe I've heard that from her, but then we haven't gotten off Sabbath keeping and unconscious death yet.
HFHS said: quote:
God requires obedience and has not changed his mind about what are his Laws. Grace has freed us from the penalty of the Law, but God has not abolished his Law, he has changed it so that it is written in our hearts.
I feel like I'm at a tennis match. Yes, He requires obedience, and I don't think He changed His mind about His laws BUT I believe He has abolished the Law in Christ, that He is the fulfillment of all of them. I believe God is done with the Law, BUT that indeed He has written them into our hearts YET not in the form they were received thru Moses. Those were shadows and forms of the True Law, the Law of Life in Christ.
Then the matter of keeping Sabbath on Saturday becomes a legalistic ritual, not a relational pleasure. Even, a denial of the work of the Cross, and smacks of "going back" to the Law. This worries me for her sake.
Yet, there is this nagging unease that causes me to wonder, maybe we should be keeping Sabbath. After all, we must know He is One, and have no other gods before Him, and honor our mothers and so on, so why not "keep" Sabbath, whatever that means.
Yahsway said: quote:
...Its not to me a salvation issue. What could possibly be the "LEAST" of the commandments that Jesus referred to when he said if we teach men to disobey even the least of the commandments we would be called least in the kingdom.
And there you are.
Then there are the Scriptures: Lev 23:29
Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Let's just say it is July 15, uh, Wednesday, though I know the Hebrew calendar was different than ours, and you keep a feast 7 days,
with a sabbath on the 15th and another on the 23rd, which is now a Thursday. Could this actually happen? Or was the 15th day of the 7th month always on a sabbath? Was sabbath always our saturday?
Lev 23:32 It shall be to you a sabbath of solemn rest, and you shall afflict your souls ; on the ninth day of the month at evening, from evening to evening, you shall celebrate your sabbath."
Afflicting your souls doesn't sound much like it refers to the entering of the rest of Christ as Sabbath. And the ninth day of the month, was it always a Sabbath, ie Saturday?
HisGrace referenced a research paper on Matt 24:20 which said in part: "He simply advises Christians that for circumstantial reasons, they should pray that the need to flee will not arise on the Sabbath"
But what are those circumstantial reasons? How does the author of that paper know that is what Jesus meant? He most assuredly was talking about the time of the tribulation because He says in verse 21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."
This would seem to still be going to happen in the future, and therefore, the keeping of the Sabbath must be going on then, well after His death and resurrection.
John Gill has this to say about Mark 2:27 in his "Exposition of the Bible": the sabbath was made for man; for his good, and not for his hurt; both for the good of his soul, that he might have an opportunity of attending divine worship, both in public and private; and for the good of his body, that he might have rest from his labour; and this was the end of the original institution and appointment of it; and therefore works of necessity are not forbidden on this day; such as are for the necessary comfort, support, and preservation of life; or otherwise it would be apparent, that the sabbath was not appointed for the good, but for the hurt of men. By "man", is not meant all mankind; for the sabbath was never appointed for all mankind, nor binding upon all; only the Jews...."
So, anyway, I'm as confused as ever. Help me out, anyone?
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
HisGrace, Who were the Gentiles at that time and why would this statement made be of any importance to them? "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." I'll give you a hint. Its not saying they have to worship on the Saturday Sabbath.
This is exactly what I am trying to say. You said " the gentiles were basically instructed that they could learn the rest of the scriptures by attending a synagogue which there were ones in every city and the scriptures were read there every Sabbath."
I understood that you were saying that they were instructed to go to synagogue on the Sabbath.
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Eduardo Grequi
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Dear Peh!
Shalom !Greetings is Jesus name!
Please Read my Message "Will You Meet Him in the Jordan"! IT will MENTION the Sabbath was not just given to the Jews! The sabbath was given to man as a whole for in it God created the world in 6 literal human days and rested on the sabbath! Jesus has said over and over and over again-IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!
PLEASE read my paper "WILL YOU MEET HIM IN THE JORDAN". Remember we must be like the Bereans and study the scriptures to see if those things are so. REMEMBER JESUS was at the beginning creating earth and heaven (JOHN 1:1-4) then he was made flesh (John 1:14) YOU WILL FIND the following to be true!
The 10 commandments are these:
1) Is it still unlawful to have any other god other than God the one who was made flesh, whom we call Jesus? Yes or NO/ True or False EXODUS 20:3 John 1:14
2)Is it unlawful to make any image or any likeness and call it a god? yes or no EXODUS 20:4-5
3)Is it still unlawful to take the Lord's name in vain? Yes or NO/ True or Falsw EXODUS 20:7
4) Are we as people commanded "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy?" Yes or No/ True or False EXODUS 20:8-11
5) IS it unlawful to obey our parents!OUR MOTHER AND FATHER! YES OR NO/ TRUE OR fALSE EXODUS 20:12
6) IS it unlawful to kill? To shed innocent blood?
TRUE or FALSE/ YES or NO Exodus 20:13 PROV 6:17
7) IS it unlawful to bear false witness against your neighbor? TO Lie? YES or NO / TRUE or False Exodus 20:16
8) IS it still unlawful to convet ( to desire something doesn't belong to you? Yes or NO/ True or False EXODUS 20:16
9) IS it still unawful to steal? to Rob? YES or NO/ TRUE or FALSE EXODUS 20:15
10) ARE we not commanded to LOVE our NEIGHBOR LEVITICUS 19:18
Remember that the law is Holy, GOD'S WORD IS HOLY!! that is what condemned us! We are unable to obey the law to its fullest apart from JESUS?
JESUS came to fulfill the law, not to excuse it and to give us a free ticket to sin? Romans 6:1 says "WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? SHALL WE CONTINUE IN SIN, THAT GRACE MAY AOUND?
LOOK in the book of Revelation, the image of the beast, it is blasphemous!!!
Jesus Our Saviour throughout the New Testament continually says: ' IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMNDMENTS? (John 14:15-18; John 15:9-10)
Many will say we need not to rest and find refuge in Jesus! For He is the Lord of the Sabbath still. (Mark 2:27-28)
DO YOU LOVE JESUS?
KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS?
DO YOU LOVE JESUS?
KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS
What did Jesus do on the Sabbath? Do you know? If not read and find with in the New Testament?
Be Like the Bereans, who would not accept every wind of doctrine, but study the Word of God daily to see if those things are so? (ACTS 17:11)
DO NOT EXCUSE THE LAW, JUST BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED BY FAITH NOT OF WORKS THROUGH JESUS OUR LORD?
REMEMBER THE SABBATH AND KEEP IT HOLY?
BECAUSE OF GRACE WE HAVE FREEDOM TO WORSHIP THE LORD ON ANY DAY!
JESUS ALSWAYS DID GOOD ON THE SABBATH, HE HEALED THE SICK? HE LOVED HIS NEIGHBOR? FOLLOW THE LORD JESUS FOOTPRINTS FOR HE IS OUR SHEPHERD THE LEADER OF THE FLOCK! THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH!!!
Posts: 771 | From: Belvidere, IL | Registered: Oct 2004
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yahsway
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HisGrace, Who were the Gentiles at that time and why would this statement made be of any importance to them? "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath." I'll give you a hint. Its not saying they have to worship on the Saturday Sabbath.
Of course we may all choose our day of rest, but that does not negate the Fact that the Sabbath was made by God, And God is the same yesterday, today and forever and He said that it would be the Sabbath day forever. If He said it was forever, then it is.
1Cor11:25-32 speaks of food offered to idols. This is not speaking of unkoshered food. Kosher food could also be offered to idols.
Any animal strangled is NOT kosher food. The Jerusalem council is stating that the gentiles must not eat any animal that is strangled. This is not a requirement for salvation. This was a basic seperation from the glaring paganisim and its practices particularly offensive to Jewish scruples. This is why you dont ask questions as to how the meat was bought or prepared for concious sake.
A lot of pagans ate their meat rare or drank the blood during sacrafices of such animals. This is why we are told to abstain from blood. Life is in the blood. Again, this is being whats known as Kosher.Many people think it means not to eat pork and shellfish. But the Levitcal Laws of Moses instructed the Jews in how to prepare their food and this is one of those laws that the gentiles could go learn about from the scriptures being read in the synagogues on the sabbath.
The men/ gentiles in Acts were being told that they could go learn about the God of Abraham, Isacc, and Jacob. They were given 4 basic instructions and were being told they could learn the rest of the scriptures at the synagogues where the scriptures were being taught on the Sabbath.
Surely you would agree that these Gentiles coming into the faith needed to hear the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say.
Salvation was to the Jew first and then the Gentiles. Jesus was not a Greek/Hellenistic God. He is the Lion from the tribe of Judah. These Gentiles were joining themselves to the God of Israel, Israel was not joing themselves to the gods of the gentiles.
Paul, Peter, James, and all the diciples preached of Him/Jesus from the Old Testament. There was no New Testament letters then.
A lot of the laws of God were for our physical well being. They were meant to keep our bodies healthful and strong. If we obeyed them we would have blessings if we disobeyed we would have curses. If for instance, If I smoke, I will probably bring a curse on my body. If I eat things that are unhealthy, I will probably bring a curse on my body. Sickness and disease. Some of Gods laws are wonderful.
For instance, washing ourselves with running water. You know, many women died from childbirth about 100 years ago because doctors did not know the importance of washing hands under running water. And yet it was in the Bible all along. God is so awesome.
These laws were not for salvation but for health for Gods peoples. The Pharisees twisted so much of Gods laws and words, adding to them the their traditions and such. Thats why Jesus blasted them. Jesus did not teach against the laws of God, but against the interpetation of them by the Pharisees.
Paul says Gods laws are pure, holy, and perfect. If we even OBEY Jesus then I guess in a sense we are being "legalistic" as the church would say.
If we want to walk as Jesus walked, then we are going to be called "legalistic" as he broke no laws of God that I know of. He was falsly accused of it, but He did not break even the least of the commandments.
What I am saying is this. It is no sin to worship God on any day of the week. If I set aside Sunday as my day of worship, then thats fine. But Saturday according to God is the Sabbath day He created for man. No way around that.
If I eat in an unsaved persons home, I eat what is put in front of me, asking no questions for concience sake. I bless it, then i eat it.Not to offend them so they may recieve the gospel and accept Jesus. And if they do accept Jesus, then they have the scriptures and can be taught what the Jerusalem council set forth about food.
But if I am in a Christians home, and they serve me rare steak, I maybe inclined to ask them to please cook it for me. For they know the 4 basic requirements set forth by the Jerusalem council and not to serve anything with the blood still in it. Understand?
A Christian knows the basic requirements but an unsaved person does not until He is saved and then is instructed Acts 15:20.
Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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HisGrace
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quote:
Originally posted by yahsway:
The passage on the Jerusalem Counsil is not in Acts 10 but in Acts 15. If you read the instructions James the brother of Jesus gives in the verses 20-21 you might find your answer about what the Gentiles were instructed.
They were given basic instructions as to not to committ fornication(sexual immorality), things polluted by idols, from things strangeled and from blood (kosher eating) and in verse 21, the gentiles were basically instructed that they could learn the rest of the scriptures by attending a synagogue which there were ones in every city and the scriptures were read there every Sabbath. Shalom
Acts 15:19-21 is making a statement, not instructing them to go to the synagogue every Sabbath. We are told to still uphold all of the moral laws Mosaic laws, but not the ritualistic laws.
"And so my judgment is that we should stop troubling the Gentiles who turn to God.,except we should write to them and tell them to abstain from eating meeat sacrifiec to idols, from secual immorality and from consuming blood or eatin the meat of strangeld anims. For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations."
Even having said that, I Corinthians 10:27-33 explains that we are not supposed to be bound by the old legalistic laws. -
1 Corinthians 10:27-33
If someone who isn't a Christian asks you home for dinner, go ahead; accept the invitation if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you and don't ask any questions about it. Your conscience should not be bothered by this. But suppose someone warns you that this meat has been offered to an idol. Don't eat it, out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you. It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.
Now, why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it? Whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, you must do all for the glory of God. Don't give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God. That is the plan I follow, too. I try to please everyone in everything I do. I don't just do what I like or what is best for me, but what is best for them so they may be saved.
We have been set free from all legalism by the saving blood of your own personal sacrificial Lamb, including the right to choose our own day of rest.
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yahsway
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Linda, I am agreement with you. I observe Saturday unto the Lord but also go to church with Friends on Sunday. I believe we should observe everyday unto the Lord. But to me the Sabbath will always be Saturday.
Its not to me a salvation issue. But I do not believe the Sabbath is Sunday. But your post spoke volumes to me and I appreciate your teachings so much.
Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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yahsway
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Acts 20:7-8 The first day of the week would have started at Sundown Saturday according to the Jewish Calander being followed by the Jews at that time.
So of course there were lamps in the room. It is customary after Sabbath for all to gather and have a meal.To Break Bread is NOT communion but a literal supper. They gathered for fellowship and to eat a meal.
Matt:26-17
The Last Supper Evening of Nisan 14
Yeshua crucified Nisan 14 Buried before sundown(Day 1)
In Grave sundown to sunup (night 1 Nisan 15)
In grave sunup to sundown (day 2 Nisan 15)
In grave sundown to sunup (night 2 Nisan 16)
In grave sunup to sundown (day 3 Nisan 16)
In grave sundown to sunup (night 3 Nisan 17)
Tomb empty seen resurrected (day 4 Nisan 17 Which is the Day of First Fruits)
Yeshua said 3days and 3 nights he would be in the grave. You do not get 3 days and 3 nights in the grave if He was Crucified on Friday as the Church has taught since Constantines time.
Remember there were 2 Sabbaths next to each other that week. The high holy Sabbath,Passover, and the regular Sabbath Fri sundown to Sat sundown.
I believe Yeshua was slain at the same hour the lambs were slain on Passover day. Yeshua is our Passover Lamb. I believe as the lambs were being checked for any blemishes on Preparation Day, so too was "NO fault found in Him" by Pilate.
I believe He was crucified on Thursday during the day, The Preparation Day, buried before sundown which started the Jewish Passover, and arose on the First day of the week which was after Sundown on Saturday evening.
I believe the Lords Super instituted by Christ was one in which He alone instituted the night he was arrested. He was letting His disciples know that He was going to be that Passover Lamb.
And 50 days later, on a Sunday He sent the Holy Spirit. Now Remember this, Pentecost was always celebrated on a SUNDAY down thru the ages of Jewish tradtion. This is why all the Jewish Men were in Jerusalem at the time Peter gave His Sermon and 3000 were saved that day.
Pentecost is known as the Feast of Weeks. Institued by God in the OT. In Hebrew it is called SHAVUOT and falls exactly 50 days from the Feast of First Fruits and is always on a SUNDAY. It was and has always been to count 7 weekly Sabbaths from the Sabbath day of the week of Passover plus add 1 day. This was known as the Feast of Weeks and it was fully come on the 50th day and always falling on a Sunday. So this was not new to anyone at the time of the disciples and was not considered "The Lords Day" as some would suggest but was known as Pentecost or Feast of Weeks. What made it different was this celebrating of it, The HOLY SPIRIT was pured out and souls were added to the Kingdom
1 Cor. 16: 1-2
This is not concerning the "Lords Day" as some would suggest, or even a day of worship whether it be sunday or saturday, but is concerning collecting for the saints in Jerusalem. Paul admonishes believers to lay aside something on the first day of the week, storing up(building or adding to it thru out the week) that THERE BE NO COLLECTIONS WHEN I COME. Paul is not going to pass around the offering plate if he arrives on Sunday.
As far as "THE DAY of the Lord" read Joel chapter 2 compare to Revelation.Also Zephaniah chapter 1 and compare to Rev. John was in the Spirit on the Lords Day. Not a literal sabbath Saturday or Sunday but He was seeing what was going to happen.Sunday-Saturday are all days made by the Lord, but only 1 day He set aside and sanctioned, called it holy. But the Lords Day is His actual Day of which John saw, He was in the Spirit on the Lords day.
No where in scripture is Sunday referred to as the Lords Day. It is referred to as The first day of the week.
And the Sabbath is NOT all about Moses because Moses was told by God Himself what the commandments were. What could possibly be the "LEAST" of the commandments that Jesus referred to when he said if we teach men to disobey even the least of the commandments we would be called least in the kingdom. Adn we know LOVE is not the least of the commandments. What do you suppose is the Least Jesus was referring to? Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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helpforhomeschoolers
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Peh: I have several friends who are 7th day adventists. I have one friend here who is an 7th day adventist and I have another friend who is an adventist and not a 7th day adventist.
Let me say this. The 7th day churches are like any other churches....there are good ones and bad ones. There are ones whose whole focus is on the Pope being the antichrist and the forcing of Sunday worship being the mark and there are some who are completely focused on prophesy and others who are not and are well rounded disciple making Bible believing and preaching churches.
All of the Adventists that I know are believers in the triune God manifest in the flesh and blood Jesus, who was crucified, died, buried and arose to pay the price for our sin. All of them, I do believe are born again.
Here is how I deal with fellowship with them.
1. I believe that they are saved.
2. I do not discuss sabbath keeping with them.
3. I do not discuss death, hell or what happens when we die with them.
4. I pray that God will not allow Sabbath keeping to be a stumbling block to them.
5. I realize that it is perfectly possible to worship on Saturday and esteem one day above another and esteem it to God.
6. I do not discuss the mark of the beast with them, as I do not believe that any would let someone mark their hand or their forehead and if they believe that forced Sunday observance can be accomplished and they want to avoid it who cares...let them avoid it.
7. I just love them.... there is plenty to discuss of God and his wonderoud works with out letting these issues become areas of contention, and most adventists that i have encountered are well studied in the scriptures which makes them worthy and enjoyable study partners and prayer partners and conversationalists.
8. Basically, I look for what we do have unity in and I think that when you do this it is possible to have fellowship in this without imposing upon each other our views about what hell is or is not or whether therre is torment or sleep or whether we are immediately present with the Lord or not, or whether the Pope is the anti christ or forced sunday observance the mark.
I do know that with some 7th day adventists they believe that because we are not 7th day adventists, we are not in obedience and thus subject to judgment. Your friend sounds like she is this type.
My suggestion is that you tell her that you do keep the sabbath on Saturday, as you do, I am sure because the scripture says that we who have entered his rest have ceased from our own works.
Ask her that she respect the way in which you keep the Saturday sabbath and tell her that you will give her mutual respect in the way that God leads her to keep the Sabbath.
Explain to her that you neither do accept forced Sunday observance, but that you believe that every day is a day that the Lord has made and that you gladly and thankfully worship him on Sunday just as you do on Monday.
As to correctness of Doctrine:
The scripture teaches that the Saturday keeping of Sabbath remains for those who have not entered the rest of Christ:
Hebrews 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day,
and that those who have entered the rest of Christ have ceased from their own works and thus for us every day is a day that is Holy unto God as Christ IS our Sabbath rest and we rest in HIM 24/7.
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
The problem that most get into with the Adventists 7th day or not is the teaching that Grace has made the Law null and void and we have to convey to them that we understand that God requires obedience and has not changed his mind about what are his Laws. Grace has freed us from the penalty of the Law, but God has not abolished his Law, he has changed it so that it is written in our hearts.
My experience is that when the adventist understands and respects you in that you understand these things, then they can rest that they are not being neglectful of their responsibility to God to keep HIS word and be light and salt in the world.
Another issue is that they think that we think that the weekly Sabbath day is Sunday, and clearly according to scripture, the weeklu Sabbath day is not now, nor has it ever been Sunday. The weekly Sabbath day was from the beginning Saturday and will always be Saturday.
See there was a pope who declared that Sunday was the "christian Sabbath" well hello! That is blasphemy from the get go because CHRIST is the Christian Sabbath! But that does not change the fact that the weekly Sabbath day is Saturday.
So, do not think of Sunday as the Sabbath as it is not, and you will save yourself a world of contention with your friend, as you and she can easily agree to respect the way that you each keep the weekly sabbath on Saturday. And you do not have to get into the fact that you also keep Holy and dedicated and sactified unto HIM Sunday, and Monday, and tuesday, and wednesday, and Thursday, and Friday.
Comprende?
May you find Peace and Joy and fellowship and Love and many long hours of sharing our Lord and His Goodness with your 7th Day Aventist friend!
I hope this helps in some way and if there is anything else I can share that may help, let me know.
Linda
Posts: 4684 | From: Southern Black Hills of South Dakota | Registered: Jun 2002
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HisGrace
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In the Epistles you will see references made to the First day of the week and the Lord's Day, meaning "every first day of the week in Greek. "
With the death and resurrecton of Jesus, the whole course of history changed. After the day of Pentecost, Paul has admonished us to give up all the old laws of the OT. In my opinion, in honour of The Last Supper and Jesus' resurrection, the 'day of rest' was changed from the 7th day to the first day of the week. This is called the Lord's Day.
First Days /The Lord's Day mentioned in the scriptures:
Acts 20: 7,8 says-
On the first day of the week, we gathered to observe the Lord's Supper. Paul was preaching and since he was leaving the next day, he talked until midnight."
Matthew 26: 17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread,( After sundown on the seventh day) the disciples came to Jesus and ask, "Where do you want us to prepare the passover supper?"
John 10:1 Early Sunday Morning, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and found that the stone had been rolled away from the entrance. (On that same day Jesus appeared before his disciples.)
Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, we gathered to observe the Lord's Supper." Paul was preaching
I Cor. 16:1,2
Now about the money being collected for the Christians in Jerusalem. You should follow the same procedures I gave to the churches in Galatia. On the Lord's Day, each of you should put aside some amount of money in relation to what you have earned and save it for this offering.
These verses apparently are talking about tithing, so this tithe would be offered to the temple on the first day of the week, Sunday. The Lord's Day..
The Sabbath would be mentioned frequently in the Gospels because Jesus was still living during most of that time and the Day of Pentecost hadn't occurred yet.
The Sabbath is all about Moses and the Old Testament - The Lord's Day is all about Jesus.
Rev. 1:10
It was the Lord's Day, and I was worshiping in the Spirit. [ Or in spirit.] Suddenly, I heard a loud voice behind me, a voice that sounded like a trumpet blast.
You will see more comments from myself and others on the following thread titled "Why Sunday cannot be the Lord's Day."
The Sabbath
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yahsway
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The passage on the Jerusalem Counsil is not in Acts 10 but in Acts 15. If you read the instructions James the brother of Jesus gives in the verses 20-21 you might find your answer about what the Gentiles were instructed.
They were given basic instructions as to not to committ fornication(sexual immorality), things polluted by idols, from things strangeled and from blood (kosher eating) and in verse 21, the gentiles were basically instructed that they could learn the rest of the scriptures by attending a synagogue which there were ones in every city and the scriptures were read there every Sabbath. Shalom
Posts: 1238 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Aug 2004
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peh
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Member # 4446
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posted
Hi, HisGrace,
As usual, appreciate your thoughtful and considerate response. I'll look at the references. In the meantime, I too believe that Jesus is our Sabbath rest, and that anytime is a good time to have rest in Him ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
He is also the end of the law for us, as you pointed out.
In addition, but this is material for another thread, I believe He is the fulfillment of all feasts, sacrifices, and offerings of which the shadow is described in the OT.
He is Alpha and Omega! Hallelujah ![[clap2]](graemlins/clap2.gif)
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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HisGrace
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Hi peh - We have had quite a few discussions on the Sabbath on this board and many believe that we should still observe it. I don't agree, but will have to collect my thoughts and pull out scriptures again to back up my claims.
Anyway, sometime ago I put the following informative comments in my "Favorites" from a poster on another Board and got permission to use them if needed. You might find them helpful. It starts out with a question from someone else on that Board.
"Quick question. In Matthew 24, Jesus is telling the Disciples about the End times and in verse 20 he says, "And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath ."
Now why would he say that to the Disciples if the Sabbath was going to be eliminated at his crucifixion?
If there were going to be no more Sabbath Laws for the Disciples why would it matter? "
This is an interesting verse and, yes, you could surmise that Jesus was implicitly commanding future "Christians" that, at the end times, the need to flee should hopefully not be in winter (for obvious reasons) or on a Sabbath (for not so obvious reasons to non-Jews).
Here's a link to a more thorough analysis of this verse pertaining to the Sabbath.
Matthew 24:20
My personal view is that there is no place in the New Testament where Gentiles are instructed to observe the Sabbath in accordance with Mosaic Law customs. Also, I take from Paul's epistles the obsolescence of the Mosaic Law customs, including the 7th day Sabbath requirements. It is interesting to note that at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 10, there is no mention of a Sabbath requirement to Gentile believers (this, of course, does not imply that only the four things mentioned for the Gentiles are important to God but is an example to illustrate the changes in the New Covenant)
Now, if you desire to observe a Mosaic Sabbath, praise God! But don't do it half-baked - there are lots of specific rules to follow but don't mix God's rules with "Jewish tradition". I'm sure there are plenty of documents out there to help you do this.
As for me, I believe Jesus is our Sabbath and we should take rest in him on a regular basis. This may sound "weird" but I think the term "quiet place" describes how many Christians observe a personal Sabbath. God is delighted by our meditations on him regardless of the time of day or day of week.
We are definitely supposed to take rest from the daily grind and specifically meditate on the wonder of our God and his awesome blessings. We are to have time of refreshing of our spiritual and physicial health.
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peh
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Ok, now that I have your attention: She was only just saved about a year ago. She is 59 and has spent most of her adult life in socialist organizations but now has decided the 7th Day Adventists have the only Truth in Christianity.
I'm willing to agree with her that their doctrine has some truth in it, and move on to some mutually satisfying discussions concerning the faith, but she hammers on about "keeping Sabbath". Thinks that Sabbath keepers are the main ones being targeted by anti-God forces because, "obviously", they are Sabbath keepers. And that because the majority of Christians go to church on Sunday, that "we" have missed the mark seriously, to the point that the 7th Day Adventists are the "remnant", and so on.
It is very difficult for me to keep my patience with her as her tone of voice is very patronizing and no matter what subject we speak on, she turns it back to Sabbath-keeping or, her other pet subject, the unconscious sleep of the dead, which she says the 7th Day Adventists preach.
I'm aware of the many verses Sabbath keepers and those who worship on Sunday use to justify their positions but must confess I still don't know if our keeping Sabbath is really important to God. I used to go to a Messianic group meeting on Saturdays mainly to see if the Lord would give me some kind of understanding that Saturday is a very special day to Him, which He wants us to keep "holy" or if it is not that important to Him.
It is my belief that the Sabbath Day of the Jews, under the law, was not the same day of our week every week, is this correct or no?
I don't want ammo to argue with her, I just want to be able to talk to my newly saved +++++ without getting into a kind of mutual irritation state. She is very intelligent and I will enjoy very much talking to her again once we can put the differences in doctrine aside.
I need some advice; though, what I'd like is a way to bypass the Sabbath issue with her, yet get some input on it from you posters with knowledge about it.
Give me some Scripture, personal experience, your ideas on it, anything except condemnation will be welcomed. Believe me when I say I have no beef with the 7th Day Adventist church.
I don't really know what the rest of their doctrine is, but if they are as exclusive of other Christians in tenets as my +++++ appears to think, I'd say it might take a few more years of prayer for her before we can again talk with some semblance of mutual respect.
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St. Peh
I don't know everything but I know the One Who does.
Posts: 255 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Mar 2005
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